Shield armor question

[f3hdp]

Is 2x dodge 1x shield good enough for a sword and board rogue that uses a buckler or would I be better off using the extra points for 2x dodge and 2x shield? Also how many ranks to use brig and how many ranks for mbp?


Thanks

[Asrial]

Dodge is impacted by the size of the shield, and not by shield training.

Therefore, 2x dodge and 2x shield is going to be better. Do you already have 2x dodge and 1x shield? Do you have DS issues? That's really the most important question.

I don't remember brigandine off the top of my head but metal breastplate is 70 or 80 (depending on which mechanics camp you align with).

[mgoddess]

Brig is 30 ranks of Armor Use, MBP is 80... to train off maneuver hindrance.

...see Krakiipedia: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use

[m444w]

As a rogue, you would be better getting 3x dodge and 1x shield and using a small shield.

[stugatz]

I've been using 2x dodge and 1x shield, with a medium shield, and never had much DS problems, and my EBP rate seems pretty good.

Am I crazy, or does shield training affect TD somehow? That may be the one thing that, depending on where you hunt, more shield training = more better.

[Asrial]

MBP is 80... to train off maneuver hindrance.I have evidence (the dodge DS formula) that 70 ranks trains off the maneuver hindrance.

The defense against that, and reason to go for 80, is that we don't know how armor training affects all these other maneuver results (does it round up like the dodge DS formula or does it require the full training).

To clarify my earlier comment.

If it was me? I'd train to 70 ranks and then pickup the last 10 later on when I wasn't so pressed for TP's.

[Asrial]

Am I crazy, or does shield training affect TD somehow?No, shield training does not affect TD.

There IS a TD difference between having a shield and not having a shield.

Also, there CAN be TD enhancing shields but it's not a training thing.

[DaCapn]

I have evidence (the dodge DS formula) that 70 ranks trains off the maneuver hindrance.

The defense against that, and reason to go for 80, is that we don't know how armor training affects all these other maneuver results (does it round up like the dodge DS formula or does it require the full training).

To clarify my earlier comment.

If it was me? I'd train to 70 ranks and then pickup the last 10 later on when I wasn't so pressed for TP's.

Seems like you contradicted yourself. "I have evidence that it requires 70 ranks." Followed by "we don't know whether it costs 70 or 80." Maybe you're just a bit vague with your terminology. (I see several systems here: DS, CML, hidden roll maneuvers, more?).

My evidence that it takes 80 ranks of AU to minimize all physical penalties for MBP is:
(1) I had a GM look at my hindrance once when I had 70 ranks wearing MBP, then trained to 80 ranks. 70 ranks proved to have lingering penalties.
(2) I read it in a GM or GH training log (can't remember which) that 80 ranks were required.

Granted my points have some vagueness as well but all physical penalties means what it says, (everything that is not a casting penalty). With regards to (2), people have been wrong before in just stating what they think is a fact. (1) on the other hand seems about as much of a cut-and-dry end-of-story answer as one could possibly get.

[Asrial]

I have evidence (the dodge DS formula) that 70 ranks trains off the maneuver hindrance.There is a penalty to dodge DS when wearing armor you're not trained for.. even if you're 1 rank off (the DS is off by a point or two in this situation).

The DS was 100% accurate, in all stances, when wearing MBP at 70 ranks. This indicates that, at least for how the maneuver penalty interacts with dodge DS, the 7.5 is being rounded up to 8.

The reason I added the second bit is because of what you posted and because we don't know how armor interacts with things like standing (since we don't see any numbers).

It comes down to what you feel comfortable with and what you have the TP's for.

Would I feel comfortable leaving it at 70 for a while? Yes.

Would I get it to 80 later on? Yes.

[DaCapn]

The DS was 100% accurate, in all stances, when wearing MBP at 70 ranks. This indicates that, at least for how the maneuver penalty interacts with dodge DS, the 7.5 is being rounded up to 8.

Oh, okay, change maneuver penalty to action penalty and we're on the same page.


Would I feel comfortable leaving it at 70 for a while? Yes.

Would I get it to 80 later on? Yes.

There's certainly many of that philosophy. I remember someone once doing a test with STAND over some 500 iterations and he only saw one additional failure (or instance of induced RT maybe?). If action penalty is applied as indicated on the official docs you'd probably need to reduce your noise floor below 1%. You're talking a sample size over 10,000 in that case. If it takes that many trials to see statistically significant differences, you can't be blamed for putting it off.

[Asrial]

Yeah, I gotcha now. How the ACTION PENALTY interacts with armor training is a better way to say it than the maneuver penalty itself.

[f3hdp]

Would I be viable if I didn't train in shield at all and did just 3x dodge? Also would training in brawling help with ds if you used and ohe and no shield?


:noob:

[Endlin]

Would I be viable if I didn't train in shield at all and did just 3x dodge? Also would training in brawling help with ds if you used and ohe and no shield?


:noob:

I knew someone that did this and... I mean... he got by. I wouldn't really recommend it though. He also quit playing beofore he started hunting anywhere tougher than Wyneb.

And I'm pretty sure your brawling training does nothing for you when you have any other weapon in your hands. I'm certain that's true for holding a bow at least.

[m444w]

heh... Kretan does this and he is level 60's, and I have a friend that is level 50's doing it without any armor at all. They both do more than get by. It is rather nice to be both 3x S/H and dodge. I'm also sort of quasi doing this, and it is really more about tactics than anything.

[Endlin]

Yeah but prior to capped hunting areas... Being a rogue is pretty fucking easy (not that other classes aren't). It's not really tactics, it's just easy. And even when it's easy, if you're wearing no armor, only holding a dagger and have no shield... You die more than the other rogue who doesn't train like an empath. No matter how many times you succesfully hunt that way, it doesn't make it a good idea.

When you get into areas that have unavoidable RT's, area webs, and critters that find you in hiding 90 percent of the time... I just don't agree that the mentioned build is going to do well. Not that it isn't possible...

Heh.

[m444w]

I agree that no armor is a little extreme, but let's look exactly at the breakdown of what you can then do...

3x dodge
3x stalking hiding
2x PF
2x OHE
and even room for a secondary weapon type
2x ambush
2x cman
MIU and AS (as can be afforded, to further augment DS with scrolls/trinkets)
armor use depends on what your vision of your rogue is (I don't suggest the heavier armors with a build like this).


The mere fact that you can be 3x dodge and 3x hiding is going to make it so that you are not going to be found 90% of the time (even at cap), and if you do happen to be found your redux will be very nice (ontop of 3x dodging) and your ability remain nearly invisible is also a boon. And you could use your secondary weapon type to pick up something like thrown and take out lightly armored casters with it.

As for it being easy... it is easy with tactics, without tactics you are dead. This is demonstrated by the person that buys a capped/considerably higher level character/different class than they are use to playing and dying about 10 times a week for a few weeks.

It is very hard to mess up a rogue, if you see your rogue as a one-weapon wielding ghost of a fighter, then it is very viable for a long time (I won't speak directly on capping from experience yet).

[Endlin]

I agree that your build there is attractive... Nothing wrong with it at all if it's the chracter you wanna play.

I just wouldn't present it as a good idea to someone who is new enough to ask for some somewhat basic knowledge on here.

You could also 3x dodge, hiding, perception and go ranged PLUS almost 2x armor. I see 3x'ing hiding when using OHE as overkill.. And with no armor in a swarm you're screwed. The guy using ranged in plate, chain or even brig is staying hidden a lot and surviving the hits he does take. Rogues have gotten some nice tools for avoiding swarms lately so I'm not saying it isn't doable... I just wouldn't ever bet on the guy with no armor.

I try not to discourage anyone from doing things differently, but I do try to refrain from presenting it as the best idea.

[Celephais]

Would I be viable if I didn't train in shield at all and did just 3x dodge? Also would training in brawling help with ds if you used and ohe and no shield?


:noob:

You can not train in shield use and still wear a shield. You'll at least get the flat bonuses provided by the shield.

[m444w]

Rogues have gotten some nice tools for avoiding swarms lately so I'm not saying it isn't doable... I just wouldn't ever bet on the guy with no armor.

I try not to discourage anyone from doing things differently, but I do try to refrain from presenting it as the best idea.

I agree that the guy with no armor is as a distinct disadvantage in 99% of the scenarios, I was merely presenting that as an extreme example for how effective a pure "offensive" build can be (in his original question about doing OHE and 3x dodge with no shield/TWC).

No armor would probably be unwise for someone new to rogues or how they function in stealth/evasion combat, but stealth/evasion combat (especially with Oscuro's new changes) is a very viable option for even a beginner.

But, you certainly have done a good job of presenting the flipside of things. What I think is important to remember in all of this, is play the character the way you see them, and mechanics secondly, the more fun you have with your character the more likely you will get good at whatever path you choose.

[Gnomon]

You can not train in shield use and still wear a shield. You'll at least get the flat bonuses provided by the shield.

You will also drop a substantial fraction of your dodge just from holding a shield. This soon becomes bad news for a 3x dodge build.

[Celephais]

You will also drop a substantial fraction of your dodge just from holding a shield. This soon becomes bad news for a 3x dodge build.

Very good point. It's worth looking into especially at lower levels, the flat bonus, and a cheap 4x adds up pretty quick too.

[Gnomon]

Very good point. It's worth looking into especially at lower levels, the flat bonus, and a cheap 4x adds up pretty quick too.

Some numbers for rough comparison. Take a 4x medium shield defensive melee DS.
+20 from shield, +20 from enchant = +40
lose 30% of dodge, is -40 with 133 ranks or a bit over level 40

Stats play into it too, generally making the shield worse particularly for weak agile races.
A giant can make it work to a rather higher level maybe even close to cap with a 10x buckler
A halfling may find the weight means it is never worthwhile.

[Celephais]

Some numbers for rough comparison. Take a 4x medium shield defensive melee DS.
+20 from shield, +20 from enchant = +40
lose 30% of dodge, is -40 with 133 ranks or a bit over level 40

Stats play into it too, generally making the shield worse particularly for weak agile races.
A giant can make it work to a rather higher level maybe even close to cap with a 10x buckler
A halfling may find the weight means it is never worthwhile.

Taking a medium one would be a bad example, since you're looking for the optimal point where you would switch from using a 4x buckler to just an empty hand if you didn't train in shield use.