This is why.

This is a good reason why he gets my vote
A letter\Email from a Captin in the 501st MI <no it was not directed to me>

We knew there was a dinner planned with ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. There were 600 seats available and all the units in the division were tasked with filling a few tables. Naturally, the 501st MI battalion got ourtable. Soldiers were grumbling about having to sit through another dog-and-pony show, so we had to pick soldiers to attend. I chose not to go.
But, about 1500 the G2, LTC Devan, came up to me and with a smile, asked me to come to dinner with him, to meet him in his office at 1600 and bring a camera. I didn't really care about getting a picture with Sanchez or Bremer, but when the division's senior intelligence officer asks you to go, you go. We were seated in the chow hall, fully decorated for thanksgiving when aaaaallllll kinds of secret service guys showed up.

That was my first clue, because Bremer's been here before and his personal security detachment is not that big. Then BG Dempsey got up to speak, and he welcomed ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. Bremer thanked us all and pulled out a piece of paper as if to give a speech. He mentioned that the President had given him this thanksgiving speech to give to the troops. He then paused and said that the senior man present should be the one to give it. He then looked at Sanchez, who just smiled.

Bremer then said that we should probably get someone more senior to read the speech. Then, from behind the camouflage netting, the President of the United States came around. The mess hall actually erupted with hollering. Troops bounded to their feet with shocked smiles and just began cheering with all their hearts. The building actually shook. It was just unreal. I was absolutely stunned. Not only for the obvious, but also because I was only two tables away from the podium. There he stood, less than thirty feet away from me! The cheering went on and on and on.

Soldiers were hollering, cheering, and a lot of them were crying. There was not a dry eye at my table. When he stepped up to the cheering, I could clearly see tears running down his cheeks. It was the most surreal moment I've had in years. Not since my wedding and Aaron being born. Here was this man, our President, came all the way around the world, spending 17 hours on an airplane and landing in the most dangerous airport in the world, where a plane was shot out of the sky not six days before.

Just to spend two hours with his troops. Only to get on a plane and spend another 17 hours flying back. It was a great moment, and I will never forget it. He delivered his speech, which we all loved, when he looked right at me and held his eyes on me. Then he stepped down and was just mobbed by the soldiers. He slowly worked his way all the way around the chow hall and shook every last hand extended. Every soldier who wanted a photo with the President got one. I made my way through the line, got dinner, then wolfed it down as he was still working the room.

You could tell he was really enjoying himself. It wasn't just a photo opportunity. This man was actually enjoying himself! He worked his way over the course of about 90 minutes towards my side of the room. Meanwhile, I took the opportunity to shake a few hands. I got a picture with Ambassador Bremer, Talabani (acting Iraqi president) and Achmed Chalabi (another member of the ruling council) and Condaleeza Rice, who was there with him.

I felt like I was drunk. He was getting closer to my table so I went back over to my seat. As he passed and posed for photos, he looked my in the eye and "How you doin', captain." I smiled and said "God bless you, sir." To which he responded "I'm proud of what you do, captain." Then moved on.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by The Edine]

[TheEschaton]

Now, if the man could actually hold a rational thought without alienating the whole world and a lot of his own country.


-TheE-

[DeV]

Too bad he's not getting mine.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Now, if the man could actually hold a rational thought without alienating the whole world and a lot of his own country.


-TheE-

Nah, he just completely ignore the liberal morons.

I am very pleased at his capacity to place the US first, and the rest of the world second... and just instead walk over those foreign states that misguidedly resist.

He has had my vote for a long time now.

The US will suffer a damaging setback if John Kerry is elected...

I'm looking forward to 4 more years of the Bush Adminstration.

[DeV]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Now, if the man could actually hold a rational thought.
-TheE- Naaa, he just needs to put the crack pipe down and get himself in AA.

[TheEschaton]

Oh, and Edine, if this is why you're voting for him, you're a bigger dumbass than I thought. And I thought you were a pretty large one to begin with.

As for "ignoring the liberal morons", I hope you mean by that, the far left, the left, the left-of-center, a great deal of the center, and even a few who would consider themselves right of center.

-TheE-

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Oh, and Edine, if this is why you're voting for him, you're a bigger dumbass than I thought. And I thought you were a pretty large one to begin with.

As for "ignoring the liberal morons", I hope you mean by that, the far left, the left, the left-of-center, a great deal of the center, and even a few who would consider themselves right of center.

-TheE-

I'm refering to Americans with their heads in the sand... and also cannot contemplate the "big picture".

Also refering to those that advocate convicts' rights as opposed to victims' rights.

Also refering to those that refuse to blame the students when it comes to poor grades, drug use, promisicity, and violence... and instead censure the teachers and instituation trying to improve the learning environment by weeding out the problem students.
Send the problem students HOME and don't waste time coddling them.
Also prayer in school and dress codes are appropriate in a school system that is designed to prepare young Americans to function and interact within American society.

Also refering to those that think "racial profiling" should be banned, while completely ignoring that there is a precedent where the majority of a specific crime is being created by a specific race/religion/etc.
I do hope in this current "time of crisis" in regard to terrorism, that Arabs are being more closely scruntized in airports and other locations of certain interest.
Is not discrimination as they are still able to do what everyday, ie fly.

I could go on further... but I don't have all day.

But what I really wish that we could do was to send all the moronic liberals to France! :!:

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Now, if the man could actually hold a rational thought without alienating the whole world and a lot of his own country.


-TheE-

I'm pretty sure most of the world hated us before Bush got into office. Instead of being that kid who kept offering them gum to 'please be my friend' he said if you're with us then show us when we need it, and many of the countries around the world have (ie the coallition.)

He has my vote, but mainly because I agree with most of his political views. I do also think he is a genuine human who really does care about the soldiers, but he already had my vote before the war so that doesn't really matter.

[AnticorRifling]

I rememeber when school uniforms in public schools was a common thing. It was Germany 1943.

I actually don't know who I'm going to vote for yet. I generally consider myself republican but I don't vote for a person just because they are of the same party.

[Sean]

As I said the 1st time we discussed this... I respect Bush for doing it. I will not vote for him however.

[TheEschaton]

So, when I get sent to the little room every time I attempt to board a plane, despite being a U.S. citizen, having no criminal record, nor any suspected ties to terror, just because I'm a South Asian, that's justice?

You've got a perverted sense of justice, then, and absolutely no idea what the Constitution says.

As for not contemplating the "big picture", that's something conservatives do, in that they ignore the fact that they're pushing people from the Arab street to the Arab basement. Liberals are, if anything, more sympathetic for victim's rights than conservatives, as the attitude "She was dressed like that, she deserved to be raped" tends to be the thought process of people who identify as conservative.

And are you serious? Liberals punish teachers? What the fuck world are you living in? Zero tolerance is the result of liberal hysteria (a policy I think is flawed, myself), not conservative thought. Conservative thought has tried to punish the teachers at every possible point.


Also prayer in school and dress codes are appropriate in a school system that is designed to prepare young Americans to function and interact within American society.

Errr, I agree that dress codes are nice. But prayer in school does not prepare people for life in "American society". I guarantee you if any place of business demanded you pray to their god before you did business with them, they'd be shut down by a lawsuit posthaste.


-TheE-

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

My sisters children go to a school that requires uniforms Anticor :)

I personally approve greatly!

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
My sisters children go to a school that requires uniforms Anticor :)

I personally approve greatly!

That's just because of your schoolgirl in a uniform fetish.

[AnticorRifling]

I was joking, I don't think all schools should head down that route but some can benefit from it. My school, for example, didn't/doesn't need uniforms. Hard to have gang related clothing when you don't have enough students to form a gang.

I would rather see people dress how they want within guidelines of good taste so that they can, somewhat, express themselves. Imagination is more important than compliance during the young years of school in my opinion. Now I know all about wearing uniforms but I still think that kids should still be allowed to be kids.

Sorry for being :offtopic:

[Parkbandit]

Bush 54%
Kerry 40%
Nader 5%

Democrats can always look forward to 2008 when Hillary Clinton will run for President.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
My sisters children go to a school that requires uniforms Anticor :)

I personally approve greatly!

That's just because of your schoolgirl in a uniform fetish.

Ewwww. My SISTERS CHILDREN go there.

[Parkbandit]

If a Liberal were President during 9-11... he would probably say something like "Well, maybe they didn't mean to do it! Maybe it was all a mistake. We should send them aid, it was only a cry for help!"

Bush was the right man at the right time.. and for that I am thankful.

TheE i would suggest you read what I posted again, I said this is "A" reason why I am voting for him.
It shows the kind of person he is, and the values he has. It shows that he cares about the troops over there, and will care about me when the time comes.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
and also cannot contemplate the "big picture". America first is not a "big picture". Humanity first is.
Originally posted by Hulkein
I do also think he is a genuine human I hear Cheney is a cyborg, though. :/
Originally posted by Parkbandit
If a Liberal were President during 9-11... he would probably say something like "Well, maybe they didn't mean to do it! Maybe it was all a mistake. We should send them aid, it was only a cry for help!" Get a clue.
Bush was the right man at the right time.. and for that I am thankful.Ah, that's better. :)

replace liberal with the tree hugging Gore and it works better Latrinsorm

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
So, when I get sent to the little room every time I attempt to board a plane, despite being a U.S. citizen, having no criminal record, nor any suspected ties to terror, just because I'm a South Asian, that's justice?

I deal with it fine as a white caucasin. I've had my carry-on held up because I had some equipment that looked "suspicious". Lost some 10 minutes dealing with that, but then again, it only made me feel safer that they're being so proactive about it.


Originally posted by TheEschaton
You've got a perverted sense of justice, then, and absolutely no idea what the Constitution says.

I'm fully aware of what the Constitution says. My probablem is with the way that some Liberals intrepret in such a matter that completely defeats the notion of Common Sense, which the Founding Fathers unfortunately only assumed we would have. They should had written it a bit more deeply, to ensure that Common Sense remained the principal of the day.


Originally posted by TheEschaton
As for not contemplating the "big picture, that's something conservatives do, in that they ignore the fact that they're pushing people from the Arab street to the Arab basement. Liberals are, if anything, more sympathetic for victim's rights than conservatives, as the attitude "She was dressed like that, she deserved to be raped" tends to be the thought process of people who identify as conservative.
No, you see, the Conversatives would just simply kill the Arab extremists. But such an option is not politically possible because of misguided bleeding hearts.

Criminals should NOT have "rights" at the expense of the victims. It would likely be less draining on US taxpayers if all multi-convicted serial killers/rapists (convicted in more than one instances) are just simply quickly executed, and not wasting $ on housing and feeding them for perpetuality. It'd also free up prison space so help close the "revolving door" problem. But bleeding hearts prevents such a rational solution.


Originally posted by TheEschaton
And are you serious? Liberals punish teachers? What the fuck world are you living in? Zero tolerance is the result of liberal hysteria (a policy I think is flawed, myself), not conservative thought. Conservative thought has tried to punish the teachers at every possible point.
Conservatives want to instutionalize standard testing as a way to measure educational performance. Liberals neuter such efforts saying that it's unfair to students of low intelligence.
You indicated another problem created by Liberal "no tolerance" issues, where the Conservatives would just ban the troublesome students from school (they'd just have to rough it out on the streets) so that the other 90-95% of the students will then be able to benefits from the disproportionate amount of resources wasted on the problematic students.


Originally posted by TheEschaton

Also prayer in school and dress codes are appropriate in a school system that is designed to prepare young Americans to function and interact within American society.
Errr, I agree that dress codes are nice. But prayer in school does not prepare people for life in "American society". I guarantee you if any place of business demanded you pray to their god before you did business with them, they'd be shut down by a lawsuit posthaste.
There was a purpose to the pledge of alliance. If schools/students want to pray, then why fight it.

The ACLU is single-handily the most dangerous and damaging thing to the American education system, and has consistently undermined it with lawsuits that completely violates the sacred tenants of common sense.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
If a Liberal were President during 9-11... he would probably say something like "Well, maybe they didn't mean to do it! Maybe it was all a mistake. We should send them aid, it was only a cry for help!"

Bush was the right man at the right time.. and for that I am thankful.

Liberals say the same thing about serial killers and rapists.

"Oh no, they had a rough childhood... we should get them off on technicalities because it was only a cry for attention. We should spend $millions rehabilitating them, even though studies show that the vast majority will only do it again"

Oh, I forgot about the Liberals' response to the victims. "STFU, you got served." (they're too focused on the "rights" of the criminals to care about the victims).

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
replace liberal with the tree hugging Gore and it works better Latrinsorm So it does. You never know, though, maybe Gore would surprise you. Not like I would vote for him, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Originally posted by Atlanteax
Liberals say the same thing about serial killers and rapists.Hi. I'm a liberal, and you're an idiot. Thx.

[Hulkein]

He means 'most' Latrinsorm. If there's anything I've learned about your political views, it's that they fall in no category, lol. Who are you voting for Latrinsorm? I forget who ya said.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Liberals say the same thing about serial killers and rapists.

"Oh no, they had a rough childhood... we should get them off on technicalities because it was only a cry for attention. We should spend $millions rehabilitating them, even though studies show that the vast majority will only do it again"

Oh, I forgot about the Liberals' response to the victims. "STFU, you got served." (they're too focused on the "rights" of the criminals to care about the victims). Like liberals aren't victims of crime as well? Im not a liberal but your one-sided thinking is almost ludricris to a point.

[Sean]

SHM is a liberal?

on another note:


Originally posted by The Edine
TheE i would suggest you read what I posted again, I said this is "A" reason why I am voting for him.
It shows the kind of person he is, and the values he has. It shows that he cares about the troops over there, and will care about me when the time comes.

I'd agree if it wasn't Bush who ordered them there.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
lots of dumb shit

Every so called 'liberal' here can point to Siefer as the typical 'conservative' a lot easier than you can point out such an extreme example of the left. So if you want to talk out your ass about extremism being the standard beliefs of liberals and conservatives, feel free to claim him as your poster child.

Raven

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Atlanteax
and also cannot contemplate the "big picture". America first is not a "big picture". Humanity first is.
Conservatives draw the line at when it's "Humanity first" at America's expense.
Fortunately, the Bush Adminstration wasn't going to have any of that when it renewed US efforts to reshape the MiddleEast into a more pro-US region (and damn those who resist).


Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Parkbandit
If a Liberal were President during 9-11... he would probably say something like "Well, maybe they didn't mean to do it! Maybe it was all a mistake. We should send them aid, it was only a cry for help!"
Get a clue.
There isn't any Liberal precedent otherwise. FDR was definately one of the most conservative elements of the Democratic Party (which is why Republicans would still vote for him).
There also seemed to be a significant misguided Liberal outcry whining about Iraqi civilians while not caring if it impedes the US's ability to WIN.
Fortunately however, the US's military has improved to the point where it can attempt to minimize civilian casualties without compromising military effectiveness.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
He means 'most' Latrinsorm. He (and everyone) should say what he means.
Who are you voting for Latrinsorm? I forget who ya said. Dunno yet. If I did say someone, I was probably joking. I'm leaning towards Bush, obviously, because I don't find Kerry trustworthy. But there's some months to go yet.
Originally posted by Atlanteax
Conservatives draw the line at when it's "Humanity first" at America's expense. That would be a "small picture". America is a portion of humanity. Whether or not it's a necessary thing to do, it is definitely not a "big picture".
There isn't any Liberal precedent otherwise. I guess Mr. Wilson never took us to war then.
Originally posted by Hulkein
There's a difference between giving support from the White House and flying to Iraq at the time he did.Mos def.

edited to add some stuff

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[peam]

The whole "Gore wouldn't have done anything, post 9-11" argument is ridiculous. None of you have any fucking clue what the man's response would have been.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tijay
SHM is a liberal?

on another note:


Originally posted by The Edine
TheE i would suggest you read what I posted again, I said this is "A" reason why I am voting for him.
It shows the kind of person he is, and the values he has. It shows that he cares about the troops over there, and will care about me when the time comes.

I'd agree if it wasn't Bush who ordered them there. lol.. I was thinking quite along those same lines. Whats he supposed to do, send them there and then NOT give them support. Give me a break. He's doing what he damn well better do to make sure morale is up, and the soldiers know the government stands behind the decision they made.

[Hulkein]

There's a difference between giving support from the White House and flying to Iraq at the time he did. Come on, it was a true sign of respect and caring.

no he sent them there knowing it was the right thing, and his actions show that he is not just using them as a pawn in a game to as your kind likes to say "get back at Saddam for daddy" or just for oil, or just for money, or just for Haliburtan<sp> and any other stupid theories that come out of the left

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
There's a difference between giving support from the White House and flying to Iraq at the time he did. Come on, it was a true sign of respect and caring. This was the election year last time I checked. It was a great move.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Atlanteax
lots of dumb shit

Every so called 'liberal' here can point to Siefer as the typical 'conservative' a lot easier than you can point out such an extreme example of the left. So if you want to talk out your ass about extremism being the standard beliefs of liberals and conservatives, feel free to claim him as your poster child.

Raven

I'd say Siefer is an extremist.

I doubt that he's an actual conservative though... it is entirely possible to hate and despise MiddleEastern Arabs and not be a conservative.
I'm sure some liberals do.
To be fair though, within the first few days of post 9/11, probably the vast majority of Americans had feelings of hate and despise for Arab Muslims, which has since then disipated with the realization that it was the extremists having a disproportionate impact.

Speaking of extremists, the US will continue to work with MiddleEastern governments to shutdown institutions that promote such extremism, and replace it with moderism. Unfortunately, it will take 1-2 generations before the modernization of the educational system in the MiddleEast becomes apparent.

[DeV]

Originally posted by The Edine
no he sent them there knowing it was the right thing, and his actions show that he is not just using them as a pawn in a game to as your kind likes to say "get back at Saddam for daddy" or just for oil, or just for money, or just for Haliburtan<sp> and any other stupid theories that come out of the left Who are "my kind" Edine?

[Sean]

Originally posted by The Edine
no he sent them there knowing it was the right thing,

The right thing is subjective.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Conservatives draw the line at when it's "Humanity first" at America's expense. That would be a "small picture". America is a portion of humanity. Whether or not it's a necessary thing to do, it is definitely not a "big picture".
I would define the "big picture" as a long-term cultural evolution, as American influence spreads throughout the world, and institutionalize the MiddleEast in the "Western" model.

If it is at the expense of the natives of the MiddleEast, so be it. Those that adapt to "Westernization" will survive. Those who don't (ie Al Qaeda and extremist institutions), will be dealt with.

Humanity will be significantly better off under a world-wide "Western" society.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
This was the election year last time I checked. It was a great move.

You're calling his visit an election move? Wasn't it over a year ago? That wasn't 'election year.' Either my time judgment is off (which is possible) but I'm pretty sure that was in 2003, and not really considered election season at all.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Hulkein]

[Sean]

Thanksgiving '03' was 6-7 months ago.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, I should remove the 'over a year ago.' I was talking in terms of last calender year, as in it really wasn't election time. Sure, before things are done I think all administrations contemplate 'how will this affect us' but this wasn't simply a political move at all.. it was too long ago.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Hulkein]

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
I'm refering to Americans with their heads in the sand... and also cannot contemplate the "big picture".
The big fucking picture is that we lost more jobs these last 4 years than in any 4 years since the frigging DEPRESSION.

The big picture is that we got lied into a war that cost hundreds of lives and a 100 billion dollars for nothing.

The big picture is that after the deficit had been eliminated, Bushie just jacked it back up to 500 BILLION dollars. That's $1666 for every man, woman and baby in the country. Think you made out so big with your tax refund now?

Only because he did a photo op in Iraq he's a big hero? Woopie do.

I voted for Bush last time and I feel like a tool. Fuck Gore, fuck Kerry, Jesse Ventura could do a better job as president than this lying clown. I'd vote for Kerry this time, I'd vote for frigging Satan.

[Sean]

I'd argue that they are always thinking about what effects them and what doesn't. But I don't think it was simply a political move.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
This was the election year last time I checked. It was a great move.

You're calling his visit an election move? Wasn't it over a year ago? That wasn't 'election year.' Either my time judgment is off (which is possible) but I'm pretty sure that was in 2003, and not really considered election season at all.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Hulkein] If it was 2003 then I digress, Hulkein. Im not sure how long youve been able to vote, but a Politician is a politician first and foremost in my mind.

I believe Bush care's, as a means to an end only.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
The big picture is that we got lied into a war that cost hundreds of lives and a 100 billion dollars for nothing.


While I was against the war. In the end we did liberate a country. I wouldn't say the end result was nothing. Just not what we wanted or had hoped for.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Humanity will be significantly better off under a world-wide "Western" society.

You might want to have some long heart-to-hearts with some people from other countries before you make such a sweeping statement. Our way does not work everywhere because all people do not think as we do.

HarmNone

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
You might want to have some long heart-to-hearts with some people from other countries before you make such a sweeping statement. Our way does not work everywhere because all people do not think as we do.

You aren't paying attention. He already said we should kill anyone who objects.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Humanity will be significantly better off under a world-wide "Western" society.

You might want to have some long heart-to-hearts with some people from other countries before you make such a sweeping statement. Our way does not work everywhere because all people do not think as we do.

HarmNone Big fucking ditto on that one.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
You aren't paying attention. He already said we should kill anyone who objects.

Raven

Heh. I am paying attention, Raven. Honest, I am. It is just that blatant stupidity always seems to lose the battle to logic. :)

HarmNone has a war going in her head

[Hulkein]

You're arguing the world wouldn't be a better place if everywhere had free elections and constitutional rights and freedoms? OOOOOKKKKKKK, lol. Dislike what he says all you want, but don't do it at the expense of sounding foolish.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Hulkein]

[HarmNone]

I am arguing, Hulkien, that any individual cannot dictate what is best for all people, everywhere. We, as individuals, do not understand all cultures sufficiently to make those pronouncements (even those of us who THINK they do).

HarmNone is not that arrogant, thank you very much!

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Originally posted by Atlanteax
I'm refering to Americans with their heads in the sand... and also cannot contemplate the "big picture".

Originally posted by Galleazzo
The big fucking picture is that we lost more jobs these last 4 years than in any 4 years since the frigging DEPRESSION.
Because of 9/11, not Bush. If you think it was Bush's fault, then you do have your head in the sand.

Originally posted by Galleazzo
The big picture is that we got lied into a war that cost hundreds of lives and a 100 billion dollars for nothing.
It was just one campaign of the entire "War on Terror". Is part of the reshaping the MiddleEast mechanism.
Also provides the US with a "base" by which to pressure Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria, to all conform to the US's rules. Which would not have been made effective of the US did not take Iraq with a show of force, and did not have a "base" in what is indeed the geopolitical heart of the MiddleEast.

I'll just go no comment on the WMD issue, which was well-known during Clinton's years.
We probably should not have used the WMD reason and instead said that it was to the strategic interest that the US take possession of Iraq so it can pressure the rest of the MiddleEast to cooperate or else. But somehow, I think the WMD excuse wouldn't be as political sensitive.
But that's all it was, just an excuse, the real reason was for the strategic interests of the US (to the detriment of the rest of the world, who don't want an even stronger superpower, but damn them).

Originally posted by Galleazzo
The big picture is that after the deficit had been eliminated, Bushie just jacked it back up to 500 BILLION dollars. That's $1666 for every man, woman and baby in the country. Think you made out so big with your tax refund now?
Deficits always happens in times of war. But with your head in the sand, you failed to notice that the current deficit is smaller as a percentage than the ones caused by WW2 and Vietnam.

Regardless the tax cuts will pay their dividends in the future. But that is part of the "big picture" where the benefits are realized in the future when the positive effect of strengthening the US economy can then be measured.

.

Anyhow, it is your privilege, as a misguided liberal to keep your head in the sand.

There's really not much I or anyone else can do about that. Afterall, it's a free country.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Humanity will be significantly better off under a world-wide "Western" society.

You might want to have some long heart-to-hearts with some people from other countries before you make such a sweeping statement. Our way does not work everywhere because all people do not think as we do.

HarmNone

Right, that is why we will teach them to think the way we do, as we gradually transform their insitution via geopolitical and cultural pressure, into one that is more accomodating.

It will just take time.

If anyone wants an example, look at China.

China is voluntary "Westernizing" as it realized that it's in a World that is dominated by the US/EU. However, the US/EU will continue to pressure China (albeit more lightly than will have to be done in the MiddleEast), to continue the process of transforming its institutions.

The world, and humanity, will be better off with an accomodating China that works with the global system (as defined by the US/EU).

[Hulkein]

These are some reasons I'm voting for Bush. I can't imagine how angry the anti-Bush people must get from this ad, heh. It's like 30 seconds, worth watching.

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/GW/GWBush1_Start.htm

[DeV]

China is a HUGE importer of goods to the US. It is "in their best interest" to Westernize. They still have alot of work to do. And damnit, who made America watchdog of the world.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
These are some reasons I'm voting for Bush. I can't imagine how angry the anti-Bush people must get from this ad, heh. It's like 30 seconds, worth watching.

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/GW/GWBush1_Start.htm I wonder who paid for that ad. I also question those figures, big time. Why would someone get angry from seeing that ad?

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I am arguing, Hulkien, that any individual cannot dictate what is best for all people, everywhere. We, as individuals, do not understand all cultures sufficiently to make those pronouncements (even those of us who THINK they do).

HarmNone is not that arrogant, thank you very much!

Do you honestly believe some people want to be ruled by a dictator who kills people on a whim and takes what he wants?

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Hulkein
These are some reasons I'm voting for Bush. I can't imagine how angry the anti-Bush people must get from this ad, heh. It's like 30 seconds, worth watching.

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/GW/GWBush1_Start.htm I wonder who paid for that ad. I also question those figures, big time. Why would someone get angry from seeing that ad?

Because they're misguided Liberals?

Anyhow, if it's an advertisement, the figures used have to be true... as per the FCC and other Laws.

But, it's all about the represention of the figures though, which is superbly being done to promote Bush.

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Atlanteax]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Hulkein
These are some reasons I'm voting for Bush. I can't imagine how angry the anti-Bush people must get from this ad, heh. It's like 30 seconds, worth watching.

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/GW/GWBush1_Start.htm I wonder who paid for that ad. I also question those figures, big time. Why would someone get angry from seeing that ad?

Heh, you can check the figures yourself. Also notice the majority of the quotes are from March 11th, 2004. It's not lies, it's just the truth. Again, people like to hide the good about the economy because of what Bush has done, and instead just scream DEFECIT!11

I said people would get mad because of the beginning, where it portrays his as regular Joe going to work in his pickup :D

Bush '04.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
China is a HUGE importer of goods to the US. It is "in their best interest" to Westernize. They still have alot of work to do. And damnit, who made America watchdog of the world.

Actually, the UK/US did so, in coordination with other West European countries in the aftermath of WW2.

Bretton Woods and the like lead to the IMF and WTO, which purposely made the US the market of final destination (to help provide West Europe and others to develop their countries by exporting to the US).

The US's price of being the final market is military and political cooperation from West Europe and others.

.

However, some 50+ years later, the Institutions are still there, especiallly the UN.

But as the US is the world's sole superpower (and hopes to keep itself that way), it is the only State able to project power out of it geographic region to deal with problems elesewhere in the world (that could undermine the established status quo).

The US is fully interested in maintaining the status quo... and is recieving assistance from UK, Japan, Australia, and others to do so, as they've realized that they're better off under the US umbrella than on their own or within another coalition.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Heh, you can check the figures yourself. Also notice the majority of the quotes are from March 11th, 2004. It's not lies, it's just the truth. Again, people like to hide the good about the economy because of what Bush has done, and instead just scream DEFECIT!11

I said people would get mad because of the beginning, where it portrays his as regular Joe going to work in his pickup :D

Bush '04. I don't necessarily question the accuracy of the figures, I am curious as to the downside or the opposite side of those percentages.

People won't get mad cause he's protrayed as an average Joe. He IS an average Joe. :lol:

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Do you honestly believe some people want to be ruled by a dictator who kills people on a whim and takes what he wants?

No, I certainly do not. Do YOU actually believe that such is all that is out there besides our way?

HarmNone, who has lived outside this box

[Tendarian]

Of course i dont believe thats the only choice. It just seemed like you were saying i couldnt say for certain that a dictator on a rampage isnt wrong. That anyone who thinks it is wrong just hadnt lived there so shouldnt get to judge or something like that.

[HarmNone]

I was saying nothing of the sort, Tendarian. The quote you used, which was mine, said nothing of the sort. I was speaking in generalities, as is my wont. I am not arrogant enough to believe that I can formulate specifics for all possible instances, nor am I arrogant enough to believe that the way I choose to live is right for all people, everywhere. :)

HarmNone

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I'm catching up late on this thread, so I'd just like to say that one good thing to come out of all this is that most of us will care deeply about this upcoming election no matter which side you're on. Get out and vote!

[Hulkein]

I agree TOK, most important thing we can do for our country.

[TheEschaton]

I would define the "big picture" as a long-term cultural evolution, as American influence spreads throughout the world, and institutionalize the MiddleEast in the "Western" model.

If it is at the expense of the natives of the MiddleEast, so be it. Those that adapt to "Westernization" will survive. Those who don't (ie Al Qaeda and extremist institutions), will be dealt with.

Humanity will be significantly better off under a world-wide "Western" society.

This is THE single most dangerous philosophy in the world. It's the same banner terrorists fly under: convert, or die. That the "other" isn't worthy of life, that it must be eradicated at every given instance.

My grandmother had an arranged marriage. I once asked her how she could of possibly been happy with being so enslaved; she told me there's different standards of happiness and freedom in the world.

-TheE-

[DeV]

Worldwide Westernization will never happen. Its funny how some of the extremists from the US are scathingly similiar to the extremists we are trying to eliminate.

[TheEschaton]

Furthermore, that ad has no restraints on being accurate, as it is obviously not put out by the Bush campaign, it is a personal project of the author of the website, and is internet driven solely.


Secondly, the best part of the ad is its misinformation: it shows a chart of the stock market growing 45% in the past year - while ignoring the fact that at its highest in that rise, it's still lower than what it was when Bush GOT into office.


-TheE-

[Hulkein]

Yeah, but someone who wasn't so blindly against the man would realize 9/11 had just a teeny tiny effect on the stock market.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by peam
The whole "Gore wouldn't have done anything, post 9-11" argument is ridiculous. None of you have any fucking clue what the man's response would have been.

Here is a clue:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Jesse Ventura could do a better job as president than this lying clown.He's considering running in 2008.
Originally posted by Darkelfvoid
And damnit, who made America watchdog of the world.The British (who were in charge before us) tried to do it after WWI, and it took hold after WWII.

Atlanteax, someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're a liberal, ok, so stop labelling people as if it does.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Tijay
While I was against the war. In the end we did liberate a country. I wouldn't say the end result was nothing. Just not what we wanted or had hoped for. We haven't seen the end result yet, man. I got this sinking feeling that 6 months after we pull out of Iraq it's gonna look a lot like Afghanistan, warlords, civil war, all that shit.

And Atlandickhead? I've been hearing the "misguided liberal" shit from you talk show morons for twenty fucking years. And you're all a bunch of liars. Rush was a lying tool, they all are liars. I voted for Bush and I voted for Dole and I'm no Democrat, but I call a spade a spade, and jobs were flushing down the toilet before 9/11. The fatcats are still making money and the soup kitchens are full.

And we didn't SPEND 500 billion in Iraq. We spent 100 billion. Where's the rest of that cash going to, guy, and why did we need to spend what we don't got?

Bush is a lying idiot who backstabbed everyone who voted for him. What a smart Republican has to do is nut up and admit it.

What a shithead does is scream "Liberal! Liberal! Liberal!" at anyone telling the truth.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Yeah, but someone who wasn't so blindly against the man would realize 9/11 had just a teeny tiny effect on the stock market.

Just because someone does not share your view, Hulkein, does not mean that person is "blindly" against (or for) anything, anymore than the opposite might apply.

HarmNone

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by HarmNone]

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Originally posted by Tijay
While I was against the war. In the end we did liberate a country. I wouldn't say the end result was nothing. Just not what we wanted or had hoped for. We haven't seen the end result yet, man. I got this sinking feeling that 6 months after we pull out of Iraq it's gonna look a lot like Afghanistan, warlords, civil war, all that shit.

And Atlandickhead? I've been hearing the "misguided liberal" shit from you talk show morons for twenty fucking years. And you're all a bunch of liars. Rush was a lying tool, they all are liars. I voted for Bush and I voted for Dole and I'm no Democrat, but I call a spade a spade, and jobs were flushing down the toilet before 9/11. The fatcats are still making money and the soup kitchens are full.

And we didn't SPEND 500 billion in Iraq. We spent 100 billion. Where's the rest of that cash going to, guy, and why did we need to spend what we don't got?

Bush is a lying idiot who backstabbed everyone who voted for him. What a smart Republican has to do is nut up and admit it.

What a shithead does is scream "Liberal! Liberal! Liberal!" at anyone telling the truth.

You're a candidate for the "misguided" label, with your impressive level of self-controlled maturity.

"Atlandickhead" ...chuckle... :rolleyes:

Ideally Iraq will be a somewhat of a US puppet state after June 30th, though Iran is going to play a larger role in Iraqi politics than desired.

Meanwhile, Iraq will be relatively stable, as unlike Afghanistan, Iraq actually does have an economy (something to export... OIL, as opposed to illegal opium). Majority rule will be ensured with Kurd/Shiite governance, while Kurd/Sunni will occassionally join forces to hold in check the Shiites. The Kurds themselves won't push the "independence" issue too far, because they are fully aware that they could lose a lot more (NE Iraq's oil fields) than whatever they could gain, and will be content to wait for a decade or two for a more realistic opportunity. Nevermind that the US is truly the only thing keeping Turkey/Syria/Iran from "intervening" in NE Iraq, and the Kurds are fully aware of that too.

[TheEschaton]

Ideally Iraq will be a somewhat of a US puppet state after June 30th, though Iran is going to play a larger role in Iraqi politics than desired.

Wait, I thought (after the WMD and terror ties didn't show up) that this whole war was about "liberating the Iraqi people, so they can have Iraq back"? You mean we're gonna control how Iraq thinks? You mean Ahmed Chalabi IS actually a CIA-controlled mook? Who'da thunk it. Oh, besides the millions of people who marched against the war.


Meanwhile, Iraq will be relatively stable, as unlike Afghanistan, Iraq actually does have an economy (something to export... OIL, as opposed to illegal opium). Majority rule will be ensured with Kurd/Shiite governance, while Kurd/Sunni will occassionally join forces to hold in check the Shiites. The Kurds themselves won't push the "independence" issue too far, because they are fully aware that they could lose a lot more (NE Iraq's oil fields) than whatever they could gain, and will be content to wait for a decade or two for a more realistic opportunity. Nevermind that the US is truly the only thing keeping Turkey/Syria/Iran from "intervening" in NE Iraq, and the Kurds are fully aware of that too.

You don't seem to know anything about Middle Eastern politics. I think your first sentence might of been the only one which had any merit, however, the U.S. will be controlling the export of the oil, whereas, I'm sure an indepent Iraq would join OPEC - something the U.S. cannot afford to have it do. The Kurds are FAR from happy, and with the help of Turkish Kurds, they want to both break away from their respective countries, and form a Kurdish state. Can they hold off Syria, Iran, and Turkey? Their numbers are large enough, by far. What would they lose? The oil fields? Nope, it's on their territory. What would they gain? Independence from two cultural groups who hate them, their own autonomous country where they can't be oppressed. The Kurds don't love Americans, keep in mind, because we told them we'd help them against Saddam, and then did nothing, while they rose up and got slaughtered en masse...and then gassed (which is, ironically enough, a reason the war hawks tout as why we NEEDED to go into Iraq, when we're the ones who pushed the Kurds into Saddam's path).

[Hulkein]

<<Wait, I thought (after the WMD and terror ties didn't show up) that this whole war was about "liberating the Iraqi people, so they can have Iraq back"? You mean we're gonna control how Iraq thinks? You mean Ahmed Chalabi IS actually a CIA-controlled mook? Who'da thunk it. Oh, besides the millions of people who marched against the war. >>

Who really is against having someone with democratic ideals leading Iraq? What are we going to appoint a fascist? Stop being so dramatic.

<<and then gassed (which is, ironically enough, a reason the war hawks tout as why we NEEDED to go into Iraq, when we're the ones who pushed the Kurds into Saddam's path).>>

Oh my God..... You love to find ways to find the US indirectly responsible for everything. If they got gassed in the past BECAUSE PAST ADMINISTRATIONS didn't help them, how does that effect ME or the Bush administration?

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by Hulkein]

[Edaarin]

Who's to say democracy is the best possible situation for them? For a group of people whose daily lives are still rooted in religious beliefs, maybe it's not.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, since they're religious let's just have them go back to a despotism, their country was thriving before.

[Edaarin]

Who are you to impose your system of beliefs on other people? Regardless of who the United States supports to lead the "new Iraq," the people over there are probably going to see it as a heterarchy. It'd be naive to think that they're going to support whoever winds up in that position, just because we say he's a stand up guy.

[TheEschaton]

A) Ahmed Chalabi is not even democratically inspired, let alone "someone with democratic ideals". Even if he was, when the CIA controls you, it's a puppet democracy at best.

B) The reason it's relevant is because our CURRENT President is the son of the President of the Administration that LET it happen, and we all know that Junior is influenced by his father. Not to mention, half of his father's cabinet is currently in HIS cabinet. Hell, Rumsfeld was the one who doubletalked the Kurds into being slaughtered. Why the hell would the Kurds trust him now?

-TheE-

[Hulkein]

<<Who are you to impose your system of beliefs on other people? Regardless of who the United States supports to lead the "new Iraq," the people over there are probably going to see it as a heterarchy. It'd be naive to think that they're going to support whoever winds up in that position, just because we say he's a stand up guy.>>

Who am I? I'm not saying they need to be US Jr. I said why would they appoint an Iraqi with beliefs that were fascist or communist? Obviously they're going to appoint someone with democratic ideals so the government shapes into something of a FREE country.. It's really not imposing anything, it's common sense. Voting will eventually occur, at that point in time they'll choose. If you don't believe in born, inherent rights, then I guess I can't convince you of them.

<<Hell, Rumsfeld was the one who doubletalked the Kurds into being slaughtered. Why the hell would the Kurds trust him now?>>

I don't accept the 'because it's his dad' argument, but I didn't know the part about Rumsfeld.. That's a good point.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by Hulkein]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I'm not saying they need to be US Jr.Yeah, Canada hates competition. ;)
I said why would they appoint an Iraqi with beliefs that were fascist or communist? Obviously they're going to appoint someone with democratic ideals so the government shapes into something of a FREE country..What makes you think democracy is any better than communism at providing freedoms? The U.S.S.R. and China were examples of cruddily implemented Communism (mostly thanks to the lunatics involved in their origin) but I can't rule out that communism isn't the way to go for Iraq simply because it's not democracy. What I'm trying to say is that democracy isn't the be-all end-all of government. To everything there is a season, and all that.
I don't accept the 'because it's his dad' argument,Me neither, mostly because it's bullshit.

Originally posted by TheEschaton
A) Ahmed Chalabi is not even democratically inspired, let alone "someone with democratic ideals". Even if he was, when the CIA controls you, it's a puppet democracy at best.

-TheE-

Wow I did not know you had the clearance to know that kind of stuff, I learn something new every day
TheE CIA Agent Extraordinaire

[Warriorbird]

Like you know better?

[TheEschaton]

It's a well known fact that the CIA and the Pentagon back Chalabi, and have him handpicked for successor.

I wonder why?


-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
It's a well known fact that the CIA and the Pentagon back Chalabi, and have him handpicked for successor.

I wonder why?The last guy we put in was a murderous lunatic?

[TheEschaton]

And this guy is a stooge, at best.

We didn't actually put Saddam in power, we just put the Ba'ath party in power, which he eventually came to lead. But we supported him.

-TheE-