Ambushing: STR or DEX?

[cronuss]

Last time I played an ambushing rogue, STR was important because you obviously wanted a high AS. Back in the day, I actually had a giantman rogue for the +15 bonus to STR/AS.

I saw something on krakiipedia about DEX affecting ambushing crit weighting now? Does this mean that a high DEX, at the sacrifice of STR/AS, is actually the better choice?

Is a halfling or such with a high DEX bonus a better ambushing rogue than a giant or high STR/AS?

Thanks..

[Drew]

Well dex/agi is important for how fast you swing your weapon. Halflings kind of suck because they can't aim very high and also their strength is far too low. Personally I prefer a middlish race like half-elf.

[DaCapn]

Mechanically, I'd agree that the middle-ground races are better. They're especially good if you might change up your style later on. I like playing halflings but if you decide to go ranged later, the low strength is really crippling to bow RT (I need a white crystal, surge active, and 100 STR to minimize the RT of firing a composite bow).

I don't think you should go with one race or the other because of the STR bonus to AS or for the DEX bonus to critical weighting (when it comes to a rogue at least). I think most of the other factors play a larger role.

[Ryvicke]

I remember somenoe (Droit?) posting that each +4 to your DEX bonus was equal to one point of crit weighting when ambushing. You may want to pick a race that can get the dex bonus to +40 a little easier (fewer enhancives) but can also ambush necks without legging something first. Elves/Sylvans/Dark Elves/Half-elves are good for that.

[Celephais]

General rule of thumb on ambushing is that eventually your actual ambush skill caps out the crit value. That's why people say it's pointless to ambush with a crit weighted weapon, and a high enchant flaring weapon is the way to go for an ambusher. So then extra AS to make sure you don't miss or roll too low to activate ambush crit weighting (Rank 0 wounds do not benefit from crit weighting).

There are other factors, like speed that have been mentioned, and I have no idea what stats come into play for targeting purposes.

[Drew]

General rule of thumb on ambushing is that eventually your actual ambush skill caps out the crit value.



I'm pretty sure this is unpossible.

[Celephais]

I'm pretty sure this is unpossible.

Can't go higher than crit rank 9, which it's capped at before they do crit randomization.

It may have been some common usage value, something like for the average ambusher you were getting enough of a push down and hitting hard enough as it was that you'd always be getting a rank 9 before randomization, with or without a crit weighted weapon. It might be like failing english for someone who is using a dagger though, not sure.

[Drew]

Can't go higher than crit rank 9, which it's capped at before they do crit randomization.

Right I understand that, but you seem to be claiming that you can cap out ambush so that a rank 1 will roll up to a rank 9 on full plate (and then be randomized) solely based on ambush skill. I don't think this is possible.

[Drew]

That said, a maxed out rogue at cap probably doesn't need a lot of crit weighting against something wearing brig, but there are crit padded grimswarms in full plate out there to be hunted. Personally, playing a ranger who isn't capped and can really only 1x ambush until way past cap, I'll keep my crit weighting.

[Celephais]

Right I understand that, but you seem to be claiming that you can cap out ambush so that a rank 1 will roll up to a rank 9 on full plate (and then be randomized) solely based on ambush skill. I don't think this is possible.

I don't know the actual numbers so I won't disagree with you there, I don't think it's the case against plate, but the takeaway, that after a certain point of ambush training you get more juice per squeeze to increase your AS than efforts to increase crit weighting, seems valid to me. (unless you're always hunting critters in plate armor).

Either way, 1 DEX bonus = 1/4th a point of phantom damage would mean your DF would have to be below 0.250 to even consider dex over str, and then you start having to weigh phantom damage vs actual damage, and things like where the truncating occurs and how that phantom point is randomized.

ETA: I was definitely referring to rogues too, whole 'nother ball of wax for rangers.

[Drew]

Yeah I think ambush is vital if only for pushdown. Extra crit is just gravy to me, it's definitely a skill I think all ambushing rogues should 2x in.

[Ryvicke]

Yeah I think ambush is vital if only for pushdown. Extra crit is just gravy to me, it's definitely a skill I think all ambushing rogues should 2x in.

But, Rogue or Ranger--aren't we all just hunting for the crit anyhow? I know when I used to OHE ambush I definitely felt like a fail if I hid/misambush/hid/misambush until I bled something out. Crit-weighted weapons are it.

I think someone has the numbers on the officials about extra enchants over 4x being worth more than 4x HCW when your dex bone is at +36 or something.

That said: bows, eyes, GoS.

[Drew]

But, Rogue or Ranger--aren't we all just hunting for the crit anyhow? I know when I used to OHE ambush I definitely felt like a fail if I hid/misambush/hid/misambush until I bled something out. Crit-weighted weapons are it.

I think someone has the numbers on the officials about extra enchants over 4x being worth more than 4x HCW when your dex bone is at +36 or something.

That said: bows, eyes, GoS.

Yeah bows are uber. Also I'll keep my 4x claid mattock which still does a pretty admirable job.

[Celephais]

To the point of the original question. No, DEX is not greater than STR, but it has value, coming up with your tradeoff point of DEX to STR is going to be based on a lot of factors.

[Ryvicke]

Yeah bows are uber. Also I'll keep my 4x claid mattock which still does a pretty admirable job.

That thing is nuts if it's the one I'm thinking of.


To the point of the original question. No, DEX is not greater than STR, but it has value, coming up with your tradeoff point of DEX to STR is going to be based on a lot of factors.

I'd say a huge factor is if the OP is a ranger. Total bounty machines--set both stats to max at 40-50 and just play for the fixstat.

[Celephais]

I'd say a huge factor is if the OP is a ranger. Total bounty machines--set both stats to max at 40-50 and just play for the fixstat.

I'd say if the OP is a ranger he's an idiot and probably deserves misleading advice for posting the thread in the rogue folder.

[Ryvicke]

I'd say if the OP is a ranger he's an idiot and probably deserves misleading advice for posting the thread in the rogue folder.

Agreed--this guy should get his fucking folders straight.

[IorakeWarhammer]

General rule of thumb on ambushing is that eventually your actual ambush skill caps out the crit value. That's why people say it's pointless to ambush with a crit weighted weapon, and a high enchant flaring weapon is the way to go for an ambusher. So then extra AS to make sure you don't miss or roll too low to activate ambush crit weighting (Rank 0 wounds do not benefit from crit weighting).

There are other factors, like speed that have been mentioned, and I have no idea what stats come into play for targeting purposes.

This being said, what is better in your opinion:

1. a regular 10x blade no weighting

2. a 10x blade with flares

[Ryvicke]

This being said, what is better in your opinion:

1. a regular 10x blade no weighting

2. a 10x blade with flares

fucking hell

[Celephais]

fucking hell

I think this is the only valid response.

[cronuss]

What makes you think I'm a ranger?

[Celephais]

Personally, playing a ranger ...


ETA: I was definitely referring to rogues too, whole 'nother ball of wax for rangers.


But, Rogue or Ranger--aren't we all ...


I'd say a huge factor is if the OP is a ranger.

I think Ryvicke just missed the fact it was in the rogue folder, and I indirectly poked fun at him by insinuating that you'd have to be pretty stupid to have posted here if you were a ranger.

[Drew]

This being said, what is better in your opinion:

1. a regular 10x blade no weighting

2. a 10x blade with flares

Obviously number 1.

[droit]

I think I'm going to agree with Celephais that, ultimately, STR is more valuable than DEX for ambushers. Assuming that the 4:1 DEX bonus to weighting ratio is correct, that's a difference of only 5 points of weighting between a giantman and an elf with maxed DEX stats. To put that in perspective, as a giantman ranger OHE ambusher, I calculated some hits with my unweighted dagger that had 50+ points of crit weighting (and I was only 1.5x ambush or less at the time).

At endgame, straight AS is more valuable than phantom weighting. It allows you to use smaller, faster weapons and still achieve the all-important first crit rank (especially vs. things with WoF and other high defenses), and it increases your raw damage--and raw damage > randomized crit weighting.

[IorakeWarhammer]

is # 1 obvious because if it has flares then it will never add random crit weighting in, and instead go for the random flare? look - either educate or stfu i'm not here to get teased like im in 4th grade

i... CAN count to potato!! derR!! lol

[Drew]

is # 1 obvious because if it has flares then it will never add random crit weighting in, and instead go for the random flare? look - either educate or stfu i'm not here to get teased like im in 4th grade

i... CAN count to potato!! derR!! lol

No, number 2 is the correct option. Flares don't have anything to do with phantom/ambush crit weighting, they just keep your weapon from having it added. A flaring weapon is always better than a plain one unless you are hunting undead or the flare heals the critter/sets off environmental affects.