Kranfer/Zirthalinusa suicide

[kookiegod]

Sometime yesterday afternoon, Josh Fink the player of Kranfer/Zirthalinusa decided life was too hard and chose instead to end his.

I'd been helping him with his recent job search and things were not going according to his plans. I've always known he was bi-polar, but in the last few weeks, he was a mess, paranoid, and he likely was an undiagnosed schitzophrenic. I've since talked to his dad who said he's always had problems but seemed to somehow make it in life.

The Saratoga NY police called me since he'd been IMing me and texting me probably last, since he was estranged from his wife. They also knew I had talked to his social worker when I was worried about his behaviour recently.

He leaves behind said wife, his five month old son, his father, and three brothers.

He was twenty-seven.

/sigh

Honestly folks, if your in trouble and you know it, get help, and if your family to someone who is troubled find them help, and maybe save them the trouble of a suicide. I did everything I could do to talk him off that ledge, talked to his friends, family, his social worker, but he was 100s of miles from me, and even then don't think I could have changed anything, nor did I have any legal standing to really do anything. All I know is I am left to pick up some of the mess of this trainwreck.

[RichardCranium]

Sucks for his kid.

[radamanthys]

Sometime yesterday afternoon, Josh Fink the player of Kranfer/Zirthalinusa decided life was too hard and chose instead to end his.

I'd been helping him with his recent job search and things were not going according to his plans. I've always known he was bi-polar, but in the last few weeks, he was a mess, paranoid, and he likely was an undiagnosed schitzophrenic. I've since talked to his dad who said he's always had problems but seemed to somehow make it in life.

The Saratoga NY police called me since he'd been IMing me and texting me probably last, since he was estranged from his wife. They also knew I had talked to his social worker when I was worried about his behaviour recently.

He leaves behind said wife, his five month old son, his father, and three brothers.

He was twenty-seven.

/sigh

Honestly folks, if your in trouble and you know it, get help, and if your family to someone who is troubled find them help, and maybe save them the trouble of a suicide. I did everything I could do to talk him off that ledge, talked to his friends, family, his social worker, but he was 100s of miles from me, and even then don't think I could have changed anything, nor did I have any legal standing to really do anything. All I know is I am left to pick up some of the mess of this trainwreck.

Bipolar type I with psychosis (psychotic episodes and mood swings) has many things in common with schizophrenia (psychotic episodes), but they're different. Schizoaffective disorder, too (psychotic episodes and mood swings, but not at the same time).

Regardless, he shouldn't have been having kids. He and his wife had to have known that he was suffering some debilitation before this. He wasn't in his right mind- his wife was.

His wife is really to blame for any suffering the child will inevitably go through. The child gets to pay her dumbass tax.

Sorry about your buddy, man. It's a sad thing. Especially when he was failed so badly by those who were supposed to love him.

[RichardCranium]

Bipolar type I with psychosis (psychotic episodes and mood swings) has many things in common with schizophrenia (psychotic episodes), but they're different. Schizoaffective disorder, too (psychotic episodes and mood swings, but not at the same time).

Regardless, he shouldn't have been having kids. He and his wife had to have known that he was suffering some debilitation before this. He wasn't in his right mind- his wife was.

His wife is really to blame for any suffering the child will inevitably go through. The child gets to pay her dumbass tax.

Sorry about your buddy, man. It's a sad thing. Especially when he was failed so badly by those who were supposed to love him.

It's awesome that you could infer all of that from the OP. You should do this for a living.

[Jayvn]

or that he too knew zirth... this was the penguin fanatic zirth right?

[phantasm]

Well, sounds like this guy had some serious issues.
Its good that he didn't hurt anyone else.
Without the help of kookiegod, who knows, maybe it could have been worse.

[kookiegod]

or that he too knew zirth... this was the penguin fanatic zirth right?

Yessir.

[AnticorRifling]

I assume you just mean physically harming someone else on his way out. I'd agree. As for not hurting anyone....his kid, friends and family will most def have hurt from this but the emotional hippy kind of hurt.

[kookiegod]

Well, sounds like this guy had some serious issues.
Its good that he didn't hurt anyone else.
Without the help of kookiegod, who knows, maybe it could have been worse.

Luckily the wife and kid checked out the week earlier and are still with his father.

Yes, I was worried about him pulling a Benoit.

[Cephalopod]

I remember talking to Josh on Psinet years ago. He was a funny and amusing guy, but very obviously bipolar and with serious problem; even talking about suicide occasionally on OOC (again, this was like 4 years ago). Very sad, but I can't help but feel it's a cowardly act when a child that young is involved.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/385153549_f57df1c297.jpg
(Josh, bringing fire)

Sorry to hear. Thank you for trying, Paul.

[phantasm]

This explained a few things:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=17163

[Elsymir]

Honestly folks, if your in trouble and you know it,

I know I'm a bad person because all I read after this sentence was "clap your hands."

I'm a bad person, and I feel for the guy's friends and family.

[AnticorRifling]

See and I thought I was the only one.

[Cephalopod]

After I read that sentence, all I thought was *you're.

[kookiegod]

After I read that sentence, all I thought was *you're.

laugh, hush, I know I have that issue....and I somehow got a 99 average in my English comp class this semester.

[Asha]

Nope I thought it too. lol
It's a harsh story and I hope it doesn't dissolve into hurling insults and shit at the person who topped himself. People who do that, I wish would get the disease and struggle with it, then be locked in their own head and have no medication work for them.

[graysun]

Holy fucking bad news, all around. My condolences to his friends and family.

[thefarmer]

I thought the title said KranAr..

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

My heart goes out to him, his family, and his kid. It's a rough road to travel. I speak from experience of losing my own mother and fighting the same battles.

As far as not having kids-- I mean this in the nicest way possible Rad because you know I love you, but fuck you and fuck anyone who shares that opinion.

Most people don't understand and will never really understand what it's like to be bipolar, and the horror of not being able to find a proper medication combination to control it. I don't usually talk about my own struggles with it on this forum at least, but it's the worst kind of hell that I can imagine. I know that personally, when I was going through that human guinea pig phase of trying to figure out what works, there were moments that I was legitimately terrified I was going to die. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

[Asha]

That. Grats you're feeling better Nik.

[AnticorRifling]

My heart goes out to him, his family, and his kid. It's a rough road to travel. I speak from experience of losing my own mother and fighting the same battles.

As far as not having kids-- I mean this in the nicest way possible Rad because you know I love you, but fuck you and fuck anyone who shares that opinion.

Most people don't understand and will never really understand what it's like to be bipolar, and the horror of not being able to find a proper medication combination to control it. I don't usually talk about my own struggles with it on this forum at least, but it's the worst kind of hell that I can imagine. I know that personally, when I was going through that human guinea pig phase of trying to figure out what works, there were moments that I was legitimately terrified I was going to die. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

That's the spirit! Fuck him and his different opinion.

How is this any different than anything else? Most people won't understand? Why because we don't have it or haven't lived thru it so there is no possible way we can get it? I'm going to disagree with you on that. But hey fuck me right (no really).

Sorry I'm derailing.

[4a6c1]

^

*God Bless* the bipolars that actually want to take the drugs. We will be putting my mother in an institution in the next several years. She is in complete denial and actually content to rage it out and then forget it ever happened. That is nothing new but now she's getting Alzheimers as well. I'm not sure if anyone here has ever actually delt with a violent bipolar person...

My opinion on the matter is that the kid might be better off. In my experience, a bipolar disorder ignored turns into a degenerative psychosis.

[Kithus]

I was diagnosed bi-polar in high school. Was on meds for about a year and then took myself off them. If it was a proper diagnosis I'm definately not a severe case, as I tend to function fine in day-to-day life without medication. Just need to remember that if I'm angry and I don't know why that I need to think it through.

My (step) son, on the other hand, is currently in a residential treatment facility trying to get his meds straightened out. He was diagnosed at the age of 9 (which I'm not sure I agree with). As his current medication was wearing off in the evenings he would become irrationally angry or upset. He finally started trying to hurt himself and threatened to kill himself. So we had him placed for his own safety.

Just from my own situation I can tell you it's extremely unfair to talk about this guys loved ones failing him. We do everything we can for my son, as does his department of mental health case worker, his therapist, his psychiatrist, his youth services worker, etc. Until you've had to walk on egg shells around an 11 year old because the smallest thing can set him off you have no idea. You can't discipline him because when he's in a "mood" he doesn't care about anything. Meanwhile we're trying to protect his little brother (21 months old) from him and from seeing things like his mother physically restraining him so he'll stop beating on her.

Unless you've lived with it, you can't judge people going through it. Unless you've lived with someone going through it, don't judge this poor guys family.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

That's the spirit! Fuck him and his different opinion.

How is this any different than anything else? Most people won't understand? Why because we don't have it or haven't lived thru it so there is no possible way we can get it? I'm going to disagree with you on that. But hey fuck me right (no really).

Sorry I'm derailing.
Yes, fuck you. He's allowed to have that opinion, just as I'm allowed to have the opinion that HIS opinion is ignorant and offensive. When someone dies from cancer and leaves behind a child (breast cancer is an excellent example since there are STRONG genetic ties for that) you don't curse the person for procreating and assert that they shouldn't have. Everyone has flaws in their genetic DNA, and I find the idea that the mentally ill are the ones that shouldn't potentially pass it on while everyone else, well that's okay, repulsive. As much as my own illness sucks ass, I don't regret for one moment being alive or existing. And frankly, if I choose to have children and they inherit my illness, if I can provide them the stable loving life that my father provided for me and their illness is their primary source of suffering, then so be it. I'm a better person for what I've gone through and if I can make it, so can my kids. Everyone passes on their inferior genes as well as their better ones, so fuck anyone who thinks it's okay to just single out the mental illness ones.

And yes, in this instance, I think a lot of people with said ignorant and offensive opinions have them because they don't really understand and to a certain extent, I get why. Because unless you've lived with it, there are some aspects of it that are incomprehensible.

I don't suffer people who martyr themselves with any illness, be it mental or otherwise, lightly. And make no mistake, shitty excuses for human beings also get illnesses- bipolar, cancer, whatever. If you recall in other threads that this topic has been raised, I spare nothing towards people who refuse to seek out help to control their illness or refuse to admit that they are ill in the first place. But in the same turn, coming from someone who's had some experiences that other people will thankfully never have to go through, I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for people who desperately want help and nothing is working for them. My mother being one of those people- who's only option when she died was lithium which she had horrible reactions to, who, when she was able to be logical and 'sane' would have given everything she had to have the options people have today. But hey, she was just a coward and should never have had me or my brother. When she died, my father should have never been able to have kids that brought him some measure of comfort because we are the sum of their love. Nope, how fucking AWFUL of her to allow us to exist.

I don't really expect anyone to understand. I pity people who can't find the empathy in situations like these. I know I'm ranting, but clearly this is not only near and dear to my heart, but intensely personal. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how ignorant I find it. I'm entitled to my opinion, and to be offended. It's nothing new and honestly I expect nothing to really change hearts or minds, but if I can get just one person to think twice about how they perceive mental illness, than it's worth it to me.

[AnticorRifling]

Keep your blinders on, yours is the only way everything else is ignorant/fucking stupid/etc got it. Just because this is close to you doesn't mean you should approach with such a stupid method (not the opinion, the method).

But hey you don't expect anyone to understand....

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You act like a reaction such as mine is something new or shocking on these boards when someone has a very strong difference of opinion from someone else. People have said "Fuck you" to someone else for much, much less.

And as I said in my original post, by no means do I hate or even dislike Brad, the opposite in fact. I just find his opinion rather offensive on this subject and feel very strongly about it. "I respectfully disagree" doesn't really do justice to how much I am repulsed by it. That you find my wording offensive, well, I'm legitimately surprised at the pearl clutching and still, then it sucks to be you.

[AnticorRifling]

You act like a reaction such as mine is something new or shocking on these boards when someone has a very strong difference of opinion from someone else. People have said "Fuck you" to someone else for much, much less.

And as I said in my original post, by no means do I hate or even dislike Brad, the opposite in fact. I just find his opinion rather offensive on this subject and feel very strongly about it. "I respectfully disagree" doesn't really do justice to how much I am repulsed by it. That you find my wording offensive, well, I'm legitimately surprised at the pearl clutching and still, then it sucks to be you.

Sure in bullshit topics that don't matter.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Sure in bullshit topics that don't matter.

Clearly I've touched a nerve with you. Again though, I'm puzzled by the pearl-clutching.

I've shared enough about my past on this forum that I didn't think anyone who's read that stuff from me would find my response that out of the ordinary or bizarre. And when it comes to things and topics that may elicit a 'fuck you' response from someone, I'd say this topic is pretty close to the top of that list.

For all my happy-go-lucky behavior and optimism about life in general, this is one topic where I feel morally and ethically compelled to speak up and strongly at that. Trying to lecture me about my 'tone' given the 'tone' of the rest of these forums isn't going to induce much of a reaction. I'm not some shrinking wallflower and using explicit language is not anything new when it comes to me getting my point across.

[AnticorRifling]

Speaking up strongly != being a bitch and saying you're wrong fuck you die. And it does more harm than good to as it draws attention from your point, whatever it is.

You haven't really touched a nerve with me I just find it odd that if you're passionate about the topic at hand you'd potentially alienate people instead of engaging them in discussion.

My opinion on the matter would probably just piss you off so I'm being nice and leaving it out of the discussion.

[ElvenFury]

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/14184/kid_crying.JPG

MOMMY AND DADDY ARE FIGHTING!!!!

[Latrinsorm]

Keep your blinders on, yours is the only way everything else is ignorant/fucking stupid/etc got it. Just because this is close to you doesn't mean you should approach with such a stupid method (not the opinion, the method).

But hey you don't expect anyone to understand....It is actually the case that everything else is ignorant. Would you rather she lie?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Speaking up strongly != being a bitch and saying you're wrong fuck you die. And it does more harm than good to as it draws attention from your point, whatever it is.

1. I am a bitch, and a cunt. If you got the impression otherwise.. well, I'm not sure how that happened.

2. I didn't tell him to die. I didn't even threaten bodily harm, like I did to Nachos in IMs. Hell, I consider Nachos to be one of my best friends (IRL) and we had a very good discussion that started because I said his post made me want to shank him. If I ever posted (or said) something that gave him an equally strong reaction, I'd fully expect and want him to make that known in whatever way he felt.

You feel it draws attention, I feel it displays just how strong I feel. I get it, you have an axe to grind on this subject for whatever reason (some I can guess at, but I'd rather not make any assumptions), that or you just really hate when I voice my opinion using explicit words. That's not going to change any time soon, though, and while I am sincerely sorry that it seems to bug you that much, I'm not sorry for how I express myself.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/14184/kid_crying.JPG

MOMMY AND DADDY ARE FIGHTING!!!!

Don't worry, mommy still loves daddy even if daddy thinks mommy is being a raging bitch.

[Cephalopod]

Does this thread make anyone else want to kill themselves, or just me?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Does this thread make anyone else want to kill themselves, or just me?
FUCK YOU WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GO EAT ANONYMOUS PILES OF DELICIOUS BARBECUED MEAT AGAIN GO DIE IN A CHEMICAL FIRE OMG.

*runs away crying*

[Bobmuhthol]

Someone should probably turn off his computer or get out of AIM or something.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I believe Anticor is simply stating while your opinion is valid, you should keep an open mind to ther opinions. I do my best to do that, as I admitedly could possess an opinion founded on things that are invalid or that circumstances have changed that could invalidate them.

For instance, I once thought Stanley was alright, then I thought him a douche, now I think he's alright again.

[Sean]

Does this thread make anyone else want to kill themselves, or just me?

What about your kids?

[Cephalopod]

Does this thread make anyone else want to kill themselves, or just me?


What about your kids?

Why do you want to kill my kids!?

[Sean]

Why do you want to kill my kids!?

Because theres a good chance they are going to grow up and sex up their grandparents.

[Kithus]

Why do you want to kill my kids!?

We have to stop the spread of your defective genes somewhere?

[AnticorRifling]

1. I am a bitch, and a cunt. If you got the impression otherwise.. well, I'm not sure how that happened.

2. I didn't tell him to die. I didn't even threaten bodily harm, like I did to Nachos in IMs. Hell, I consider Nachos to be one of my best friends (IRL) and we had a very good discussion that started because I said his post made me want to shank him. If I ever posted (or said) something that gave him an equally strong reaction, I'd fully expect and want him to make that known in whatever way he felt.

You feel it draws attention, I feel it displays just how strong I feel. I get it, you have an axe to grind on this subject for whatever reason (some I can guess at, but I'd rather not make any assumptions), that or you just really hate when I voice my opinion using explicit words. That's not going to change any time soon, though, and while I am sincerely sorry that it seems to bug you that much, I'm not sorry for how I express myself. I added stuff because I apparently posted as I walked away to go talk to a programmer lol.

I really don't have an axe to grind with the subject matter. I'm afraid I'm going to have to burn your house down.

[Cephalopod]

Because theres a good chance they are going to grow up and sex up their grandparents.

I hate you so much.

[Cephalopod]

I really don't have an axe to grind with the subject matter. I'm afraid I'm going to have to burn your house down.

If you're going to burn her house down, can you at least unshackle me first? She's got me tied up and has been shanking me mercilessly for hours.

[Liberi Fatali]

Wow, this is terrible, terrible news.

He always chatted me up on Facebook. He accredited me for "saving" his life once, as he called me up knowing that I was a doctor and asked me if what he was experiencing was a heart attack -- I told him those symptoms were precisely what entailed a heart attack and to go to the emergency room immediately, and he did. Too bad I couldn't save him here, too.

Unfortunately, he did not ever mention having suicidal thoughts to me. He tried to call me about a month back, but that was the last time I spoke with him.

He had a well paying job, and fancied nice cars. He lost his first son to SIDS at 8-months old, I believe, which was hard for him. He was so happy with his new baby -- I wonder why he did this.

How did he kill himself, out of curiosity? He didn't endanger anyone else in the process, did he?

[Liagala]

<3 EF, Nachos, and Sean. I feel terrible laughing in a thread that started the way this one did, but...

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I believe Anticor is simply stating while your opinion is valid, you should keep an open mind to ther opinions. I do my best to do that, as I admitedly could possess an opinion founded on things that are invalid or that circumstances have changed that could invalidate them.

For instance, I once thought Stanley was alright, then I thought him a douche, now I think he's alright again.

I pretty much flat out said, not everyone can understand my opinion because we all look at things differently and have different experiences. If that's not being aware of and at some level, accepting of other opinions, then I'm not sure what is.

I can say that this is one area where my opinion is not likely to change. And this is one area where, and I know this is going to piss people off, I don't think many other people would even do that much (i.e. "I understand that some people will not understand where I'm coming from") if they were in my shoes. I don't state that with malice or to pretend I'm somehow better or anything, but I think given what has induced visceral reactions from other members on other topics makes it clear that most people have some hot button issue where there is no quarter given for differing opinions.

[Keller]

1. I am a bitch, and a cunt.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/307515/welpcya-o.gif

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I added stuff because I apparently posted as I walked away to go talk to a programmer lol.

I really don't have an axe to grind with the subject matter. I'm afraid I'm going to have to burn your house down.

Because it is ALWAYS relevant:

[OOC]-Ratolin: "slamming his big thick cock in and out of your pussy, his balls slapping against your asshole."

[Keller]

[OOC]-Ratolin: "slamming his big thick cock in and out of your pussy, his balls slapping against your asshole."

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/307515/welpcya-o.gif

[phantasm]

Heroes get memorials.

Cowards get threads like this.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You haven't really touched a nerve with me I just find it odd that if you're passionate about the topic at hand you'd potentially alienate people instead of engaging them in discussion.

My opinion on the matter would probably just piss you off so I'm being nice and leaving it out of the discussion.

Again, like I said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person alive who doesn't have a hot button issue or two that elicits a visceral response. People who'd be alienated at my response instead of reading the message are a lost cause to me in any case. Sometimes it's not about changing and hearts and minds and more about sticking up for yourself and the people you love the most.

I know your opinion on the matter well enough from other threads with similar subject matter. I know the opinion of quite a few people on these forums, just as I know the opinion of a lot of people in real life. Like I said, I pity the ignorance, but at the same time, I do happen to get how those opinions happen. All that being said, I sincerely hope that you, your wife, and your sons have nothing but good health, mentally and physically, in the future.

[AnticorRifling]

Oh I'm in agreement with you (on the hot buttons not the current subject matter). I know I've got my hot points which is why I'm saying, since this isn't one of them for me and I see it it is for you, change your delivery if you're hoping to bring people to your side.

[Liagala]

Heroes get memorials.

Cowards get threads like this.

Not that the PC is a particularly considerate place, but that was rude. Did he make the best choice for everyone involved? No. Was he a coward? That's a pretty tough call unless you're inside his head. Maybe he thought it better that his child not have to grow up with an unstable father (don't shank me Nikki, I'm just suggesting a possible thought he might have had when pondering his course of action).


All that being said, I sincerely hope that you, your wife, and your sons have nothing but good health, mentally and physically, in the future.

... after she burns your house down.

/flee

[Delias]

Hey, anyone remember the part where someone died? I feel we should move our selective breeding discussion to another thread.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

It bears repeating:

"Sometimes it's not about changing and hearts and minds and more about sticking up for yourself and the people you love the most. "

Ultimately, talk is cheap. So while I'm more than willing to stand up for how I feel, nothing I say is going to sway some people's opinions. I think hearts and minds are more likely to be won when more people stand up to be good ambassadors for their illness. Self-stigmatizing is as big if not a bigger issue impeding progress on this subject.

[Cephalopod]

Someone please make her stop shanking me.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Not that the PC is a particularly considerate place, but that was rude. Did he make the best choice for everyone involved? No. Was he a coward? That's a pretty tough call unless you're inside his head. Maybe he thought it better that his child not have to grow up with an unstable father (don't shank me Nikki, I'm just suggesting a possible thought he might have had when pondering his course of action).

Will not shank. My mother left my father a note that we would be better off with the social security money from her death, as opposed to her instability and hospital bills. Like you said, it's hard to know what's going on in someone's head.

This is definitely sad for everyone involved. Sorry if I derailed the thread, that honestly was not my intention. I feel terrible for his ex wife and child, and yes, for him too.

[Keller]

Was he a coward?

Absolutely.

[ElvenFury]

Woman gets emotional about something. Guy tells her to chill out. Other guy gets shanked. I see nothing here to label as unexpected.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Woman gets emotional about something. Guy tells her to chill out. Other guy gets shanked. I see nothing here to label as unexpected.
Nachos failed to mention that he secretly loves being shanked. I'm gonna put on my boots later and trample him, and he'll love it or else.

[Delias]

Bravery or cowardice isn't really the issue here... he was a human being. It isn't like he was fighting to save the world and his cowardice ended existence. Every single person here has done at least one stupid thing because they were afraid or unhappy in their life. So, here's a decent medium... despise the cowardice of the action, mourn the good parts of the man he was, and feel sympathy for those he left behind. Oh, and stop being dicks.

[Kithus]

Absolutely.

Honestly Keller I'm surprised at you. Normally you are quite reasonable, even when I disagree with what you are saying. In this case you've chosen to disregard the fact that the guy had a mental illness and condemn him as a coward. This was a tragedy, as is the continued stigma people with these types of diseases/disorders are met with from our society.

If this guy had died after a long battle with cancer would you consider him a coward? The situations are pretty similar. After a long bout with a tragic illness someone died, leaving behind family and friends that will grieve the loss.

[AnticorRifling]

The PC, GemStone's Speaker of the Dead.

[Liagala]

Absolutely.

So if you believed 100% that Daphne would suffer with you there, and live a happy life without you, you'd be a coward to leave? Forget for the moment why she'd be miserable/happy or whether your beliefs in the matter are right or wrong. Just assume that you somehow know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you would be personally responsible for your baby's suffering, and that removing yourself from the picture would alleviate said suffering. The cowardly thing to do here would be to leave? Would Sean2 be a coward if he stayed out of his girls' lives until such time as he finally quits drinking for real and gets his act together... forever, if such is the case? Is he "brave" by continuing to subject them to the mess that is his current life?

If those were the thoughts going through his head - which is entirely possible with a mental illness that twists the way you see things - then I can't say his decision was cowardly. I can say with 100% certainty that he was wrong, and that he somehow missed the boat with whatever opportunity would have helped him to realize that, but I can't say that he was a coward.

[AnticorRifling]

Honestly Keller I'm surprised at you. Normally you are quite reasonable, even when I disagree with what you are saying. In this case you've chosen to disregard the fact that the guy had a mental illness and condemn him as a coward. This was a tragedy, as is the continued stigma people with these types of diseases/disorders are met with from our society.

If this guy had died after a long battle with cancer would you consider him a coward? The situations are pretty similar. After a long bout with a tragic illness someone died, leaving behind family and friends that will grieve the loss.

So cancer = suicide?

[Kithus]

So cancer = suicide?

Cancer and Bi-polar both = diseases.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'd say the cancer and bipolar being on par is pretty spot on.

Both of them can kill you. Both of them turn your body against you. There is no universal treatment for either of them that are guaranteed to work. Even if you go into remission for either of them, you are never considered 'cured' and there is ALWAYS a possibility of relapse. People don't ask to have either of them, and people can't wish away the diagnosis or wish a cure upon themselves. When people die from either of them, they typically leave behind a devastated family. There are genetic ties to how both of them are passed on, and just because a parent has one does not guarantee that the child will get it, though there is elevated risk of just that occurring.

I'd say the biggest difference is that when you die of cancer, you don't have people calling you a coward for it.

In any case, I agree with Delias. Bravery or cowardice isn't the point so much as he was a human with people who loved him and will miss him terribly, and the why and how of why he's no longer here is for the most part irrelevant when it comes to that fact.

[StrayRogue]

Bravery or cowardice isn't really the issue here... he was a human being. It isn't like he was fighting to save the world and his cowardice ended existence. Every single person here has done at least one stupid thing because they were afraid or unhappy in their life. So, here's a decent medium... despise the cowardice of the action, mourn the good parts of the man he was, and feel sympathy for those he left behind. Oh, and stop being dicks.

Word.

[Tordane]

I'd say the cancer and bipolar being on par is pretty spot on.


Wow....seriously?
::breaks his own finger to mask the stupidity of this thread::

Sorry Paul, and sorry to the family this dead guy leaves behind.

[Keller]

Honestly Keller I'm surprised at you. Normally you are quite reasonable, even when I disagree with what you are saying. In this case you've chosen to disregard the fact that the guy had a mental illness and condemn him as a coward. This was a tragedy, as is the continued stigma people with these types of diseases/disorders are met with from our society.

If this guy had died after a long battle with cancer would you consider him a coward? The situations are pretty similar. After a long bout with a tragic illness someone died, leaving behind family and friends that will grieve the loss.

I just had an acquitance (who was a close friend of a few close friends of mine) kill himself.

He was the subject of a big federal investigation for child pornography. He found out about it after he was questioned by the FBI at his condo. That night, he took his own life.

He was abused as a child and we had known he was in therapy. But none of us knew he was into child porn, especially so much so that he was the subject of a federal investigation.

So, let's say that he had a mental disorder caused by him being abused as a child. Should I forgive him? Should I say it's ok that he left his family and friends confused and ashamed? Should it be ok that those people are left trying to pick up the pieces of his life?

I don't think it is. I think it was cowardly of him to take the easy way out. No one's life is perfect. Everyone's life is hard. Although it is always a matter of perspective, we all struggle day-to-day.

Having any mental disorder is difficult and likely is hardly than anything I've personally dealt with. But it is cowardly and selfish to take your own life, especially if you think it is to save loved ones. Can you imagine what might be going through his wife's head now? That her husband and her child's father took his own life because he thought he was a burden on her?

It's pathetic, selfish, and cowardly.

Call me unreasonable, if you want.

[RichardCranium]

Wow....seriously?
::breaks his own finger to mask the stupidity of this thread::

Sorry Paul, and sorry to the family this dead guy leaves behind.

I take it you've never experienced the disease or anyone with it.

[Keller]

So if you believed 100% that Daphne would suffer with you there, and live a happy life without you, you'd be a coward to leave? Forget for the moment why she'd be miserable/happy or whether your beliefs in the matter are right or wrong. Just assume that you somehow know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you would be personally responsible for your baby's suffering, and that removing yourself from the picture would alleviate said suffering. The cowardly thing to do here would be to leave? Would Sean2 be a coward if he stayed out of his girls' lives until such time as he finally quits drinking for real and gets his act together... forever, if such is the case? Is he "brave" by continuing to subject them to the mess that is his current life?

If those were the thoughts going through his head - which is entirely possible with a mental illness that twists the way you see things - then I can't say his decision was cowardly. I can say with 100% certainty that he was wrong, and that he somehow missed the boat with whatever opportunity would have helped him to realize that, but I can't say that he was a coward.

Seeking treatment for his disorder, or, in Sean's case, seeking treatment for his alcoholism, would be appropriate. Removing yourself from the household until such time as you are not a danger to your child(ren) would be appropriate.

But killing yourself is not appropriate in those circumstances.

I believe there should be physician-assisted suicide, but only as a quasi-hospice type service. I don't think anyone should take their own life without first discussing it with those in their life that will be left picking up the pieces. I definitely don't believe that it is anything other than cowardly and selfish to take your own life when you have a treatable disorder/illness. I suppose if you're some hermit living in the middle of Montana with no family or friends I might change my mind. But no one will ever hear about those people because no one is hurt, or even cares, when they kill themselves.

[Tordane]

I take it you've never experienced the disease or anyone with it.

Have had two family members die from cancer and dated a girl for 4 years who was diagnosed and medicated for bipolar. I believe I have the right to speak on the stupidity of the statement of similarity between bi-polar and cancer.

[RichardCranium]

The only thing similar is that they are diseases, as stated.

[waywardgs]

Wow....seriously?
::breaks his own finger to mask the stupidity of this thread::


The point is, his suicide was a consequence of his disease, just as death can be a consequence of cancer. The misconception that it is otherwise speaks to the exact public perception problem Nikki was talking about re. mental illness. He didn't "choose" to be bipolar just like no one "chooses" to have cancer, and the two diseases can be equally as deadly. Suggesting otherwise is to ignore all the current science out there about mental illness.

[Sean]

The point is, his suicide was a consequence of his disease, just as death can be a consequence of cancer. The misconception that it is otherwise speaks to the exact public perception problem Nikki was talking about re. mental illness. He didn't "choose" to be bipolar just like no one "chooses" to have cancer, and the two diseases can be equally as deadly. Suggesting otherwise is to ignore all the current science out there about mental illness.

How do you know that?

[waywardgs]

Have had two family members die from cancer and dated a girl for 4 years who was diagnosed and medicated for bipolar. I believe I have the right to speak on the stupidity of the statement of similarity between bi-polar and cancer.

So your ex was medicated and the medication evidently worked. Good for her. Looks like the medication or treatment for your family members didn't work, and that's unfortunate. Sounds like what happened here is this guy never got the treatment/medication nailed down, and it ended up killing him.

[waywardgs]

How do you know that?

Which part? That his mental illness contributed to his committing suicide? Or that he didn't choose to be bipolar?

[Sean]

Which part? That his mental illness contributed to his committing suicide? Or that he didn't choose to be bipolar?

That his suicide was a consequence of his disease. Of course he didn't choose to be bipolar.

[kookiegod]

So your ex was medicated and the medication evidently worked. Good for her. Looks like the medication or treatment for your family members didn't work, and that's unfortunate. Sounds like what happened here is this guy never got the treatment/medication nailed down, and it ended up killing him.

Yep. He never did.

Nikki, thanks hon for the support and coming out the way you did, that rocks my sox, hugs and kisses.

Folks, this was a tragedy, even glad for the controversey cause its got people talking about mental issues and that is worthwhile.

Keisha is doing ok, talked to her a bit ago, its a trainwreck for sure and for a weird reason, I'm still venting to Josh in his IMs until his computer is unplugged. At least he isn't arguing with me anymore. /sigh

~Paul

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I don't know why people struggle to grasp that not only is your brain an organ that can have problems with it, just like say, your heart or your liver, but that it's easily the most complicated organ and we know relatively little about it compared to how much we know about our other organs. Sometimes it's like people think there's some superfluous grey matter floating around in there and not the complicated organ that is ultimately in charge of all the others that it is.

The whole point of a lot of mental illnesses and why they are terrifying and hard to deal with is that it alters the sufferers perception and grasp on reality and ability to make rational thoughts and thus rational decisions. I have to admit that I literally chuckled at Keller's point of view. Everyone can go home now, the answer is to just be rational, damn it!

But honestly, this thread is running in circles and after this post I won't be contributing.

To anyone who's interested in learning about bipolar, I personally recommend "An Unquiet Mind" by Kay Jamison. She's a clinical psychologist who also has bipolar so it's an interesting juxtaposition of her frankly describing her own experiences all the while analyzing them as the scientist she is. While I don't think her experience is exactly like anyone elses, I know I personally identify with much of what she wrote. I've recommended it for loved ones to read and they've told me it was helpful and illuminating.

In any case, thank you for posting this Paul.

[StrayRogue]

I don't know why people struggle to grasp that not only is your brain an organ that can have problems with it, just like say, your heart or your liver, but that it's easily the most complicated organ and we know relatively little about it compared to how much we know about our other organs. Sometimes it's like people think there's some superfluous grey matter floating around in there and not the complicated organ that is ultimately in charge of all the others that it is.



This also makes diagnosing difficult then. Personally I don't believe in 99% of case where people claim to be "depressed", for example.

Not saying I don't "believe" in it, or bi-polar disorder or whatever, I just think we're now a culture who blames anything and everything wrong in our lives on disorders and syndromes.

Regardless, best wishes to his family.

[Liberi Fatali]

Kranfer/Zirthalinusa... 05-18-2010 08:04 PM Only a sick fuck like you would ask how he killed himself. You're an asshole.

Au contraire ma peche, I was merely wondering, as on SEVERAL occasions did he seek my medical opinion in regard to combining medications together, or thresholds for overdose. Of course, I never gave him specifics, nor ever said anything to pique his curiosity any further than it already had been.

I'm betting it had to do with overdose/his ample medications, but who knows.

[waywardgs]

This also makes diagnosing difficult then. Personally I don't believe in 99% of case where people claim to be "depressed", for example.

Not saying I don't "believe" in it, or bi-polar disorder or whatever, I just think we're now a culture who blames anything and everything wrong in our lives on disorders and syndromes.

Regardless, best wishes to his family.

Why not? We're learning more and more about the brain every day, discovering more and more about its operations and chemistry. There was a time when people thought the idea of getting sick because of some little invisible creature getting into your blood was silly too.

I agree to some extent that there is a certain amount of over- or misdiagnoses... but that's because the science isn't all there yet. To claim it's all bogus, though, well... I suppose there are some who agree:

http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/tom_cruise.jpg

[StrayRogue]

Where in that post did I claim it was all bogus?

/facepalm.

Usually when someone comes up to me and claims to be depressed they typically fall into one or all of the below:
1) Classic attention-seeker/hypercondriac
2) Over-weight or unhealthy/unfit
3) Poor diet.

In my life I've had many, many people claim to be depressed. I can count on one hand the people I feel genuinely had a chemical imbalance in their brain that fit the "depressive" parameters. Yet this doesn't stop people being diagnosed as depressed, nor does it stop them burning money on drugs and therapy.

Like I said, it's easy to blame things on something beyond your control.

[Ardwen]

Ya know considering the original subject of this thread most of this is all more then a little ridiculous

[Latrinsorm]

Should I forgive him?Forgiveness is by definition a response to a wrong. Nobody needs forgiveness for when they've done something permissible - everybody needs to be forgiven.

[4a6c1]

...not only is your brain an organ that can have problems with it, just like say, your heart or your liver, but that it's easily the most complicated organ and we know relatively little about it compared to how much we know about our other organs. Sometimes it's like people think there's some superfluous grey matter floating around in there and not the complicated organ that is ultimately in charge of all the others that it is.

.

My personal longterm observations confirm that when a severe bipolar goes from 'good mode' to 'bad mode' there are a number of physical symptoms that go along with the typical pathos. Visible core temperature change (sweating or shivering), eye dilation, eating disorder, speech disorder and the most alarming: significant behavior variations. Looking at it from a mechanical perspective it has always been like watching a machine trying to function with broken parts.

In general I dont like the practice of clinical psychology and dont put much stock in the mass druggings of teenagers to bandaid behavioral problems caused by time constrained full-time parents these days but I cant deny what I learned from my own accidental empiricism. Severe Bipolar is definately a brain not functioning the way it is ment to.

That said, I agree with Stray that depression is a condition that should always be treated equally with outdoors, sunshine, socialization, correct diet, excercise and intellectual stimulation.


Ya know considering the original subject of this thread most of this is all more then a little ridiculous

Everybody is trying to understand the situation in their own way. Thank god most human beings talk things through to the solution instead of ignoring a problem and hoping it goes away. :)

[iJin]

That is the most fucking bullshit thing I have ever heard.

Depression is something that happens to everyone in one point of their lives. It doesn't have shit to do with wanting attention, being unhealthy, or...a poor diet? Seriously?


Anyways, this is sad news. My thoughts go out for the kid he left.

[StrayRogue]

That is the most fucking bullshit thing I have ever heard.

Depression is something that happens to everyone in one point of their lives. It doesn't have shit to do with wanting attention, being unhealthy, or...a poor diet? Seriously?


Anyways, this is sad news. My thoughts go out for the kid he left.

You clearly don't know what clinical depression is, do you? It's biological. What you're describing...feeling low, unhappy, moody etc, is the usual "I'm depressed" BS I encounter from time to time.

And yes, studies show overall health goes a long way to making a person feel better about themselves.

[radamanthys]

My heart goes out to him, his family, and his kid. It's a rough road to travel. I speak from experience of losing my own mother and fighting the same battles.

As far as not having kids-- I mean this in the nicest way possible Rad because you know I love you, but fuck you and fuck anyone who shares that opinion.

Most people don't understand and will never really understand what it's like to be bipolar, and the horror of not being able to find a proper medication combination to control it. I don't usually talk about my own struggles with it on this forum at least, but it's the worst kind of hell that I can imagine. I know that personally, when I was going through that human guinea pig phase of trying to figure out what works, there were moments that I was legitimately terrified I was going to die. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

First off... <3 to you too. You know I don't mean to offend you.

Secondly, you gotta realize that in many ways I'm not pro-choice. I'm not pro-life. I'm closer to pro-abortion. I think the world is overpopulated and most people shouldn't be having kids. Especially drug addicts, the terminally ill, those with serious (or even not-so-serious) mental instability, those too poor to afford children, those too young to create a life for themselves, people whose jobs require them to never be home for their kids, parents who don't love each other, people who are sexually attracted to children, those too immature to assume adequate parental responsibility, people who have a bad marriage and think a child will solve all their problems, idiots, ugly people, rich people who will spoil their children, zealots (religious, political, whatever), people in war-torn/brutalized countries... the list goes on. But they reproduce. En masse. So it's nothing against those with bipolar specifically. It's basically everyone. Shit, I ain't having kids any time soon.

And yea, I guess I was being a douche when I said what I said. And it was certainly unfair. I have no idea what the actual situation was. I could have said that the woman was completely correct to get her child away from someone so obviously unstable. I could have said that she abandoned him, that she must not have really loved him enough to stay and fight with him. Both truths may have existed to different people. What better place to make sweeping generalizations of people than a web forum?

That said, I have no idea what you're actually arguing there. You say "fuck you, bipolar people should have kids", then say "it's the worst hell imaginable". It might just be me, but it doesn't really seem to reinforce your point. You go on to talk about how your mother's illness was difficult and had, to some degree, a negative impact on your life. Do you think it is the most wise decision for a person to procreate given the severity of the illness as well as the genetic possibility to bestow that (self-proclaimed) hell on your child? Perhaps you wrestle with the issue yourself and would much rather the decision be made by you and not some societal presupposition? Even if you don't... Shit, I would.

Yea, people don't know shit about mental illness (hell, humanity doesn't), that's true. It's hard for people to rationalize a disease that forces a person act and think differently. That a person's thoughts, feelings, moods, ideas, decisions, or entire world-view are the byproduct of something that's entirely out of that person's control. The guy who jumps off a bridge because he lost a million in the stock market and can't deal with it? You could probably call him a coward and be close to the truth. The guy who jumps off a bridge because Hans Christian Anderson would kill the President of the World if he didn't? Not in control. Hell, not even at fault. That's a dramatic example- the same goes with more subtle ideations more typically inherent of mental health issues. Nikki is right, calling a mentally ill person a 'coward' is very much like calling a cancer patient 'weak'. Its not fair and is effectively demonizing someone for something they have no control over. I think our current societal mores dictate that doing this is bad.

Regardless, our understanding of the brain is absolutely infantile right now. I look forward to the day when our science renders a series of cures so that nobody has to needlessly suffer or die from any sort of mental illness. Until then, though, society will just have to keep adjusting as we learn.


And again, it's sad that the guy died from his illness. I offer my condolences to Paul having lost a friend. And my apologies to Nikki for offending/upsetting her.

[kookiegod]

That said, I agree with Stray that depression is a condition that should always be treated equally with outdoors, sunshine, socialization, correct diet, excercise and intellectual stimulation.



Everybody is trying to understand the situation in their own way. Thank god most human beings talk things through to the solution instead of ignoring a problem and hoping it goes away. :)

One of the last texts I sent him on Sunday read...."Its a beautiful day outside, DonnaRenee (my gf) and I are going outside for a long walk. Why don't you do that too?" or words to that effect.

He texted back "NO".

Getting outside and some sun is a great thing to correct a lot of bad stuff. Its not a cure to everything, but its a start.

[iJin]

Oh yes. After the years I've spent in therapy and visiting my most wonderful psychiatrist, and being diagnosed with BPD, I must say that I have no idea what clinical depression is!

On a point of note, yes I will agree that I too have encountered a few people who claim he or she is depressed and after a day or two, they're just fine and dandy. Yes, those are the ones that are just, gasp, upset!

But when that carries on for more than two weeks, it's called major depression. Clinical depression is usually the root for something far more serious than just the depression itself, and obviously someone's neurotransmitters are out of whack and need to find some help. A no, it isn't always biological. There are three factors for depression; biological, genetic, and environmental. Someone who lives with someone who is depressed quite often, (Bipolar, Borderline,..etc..etc) will pick it up and see it as the norm to act. It can most definitely be picked up by the person from their environment, and will then have to be treated with therapy.

But insisting that any other type of depression other than clinical is BS, is absurd and sad.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I said I wouldn't post further but I do want to respond to and thank Rad for posting. I clarified my feelings on children further in, but I'm not sure if you read it.

I don't plan on having biological children, but it's not because of my bipolar one way or another. The truth is that anytime you have kids, there is some degree of a crap shoot of passing off some sort of bad genes that will inflict suffering on your child. My decision stems more from my belief that the world is overpopulated and because of the kind of love I received from my mom (I call my step-mom mom).

I'm going to speak rather frankly now, and I apologize if it makes anyone uncomfortable. I'm not going to lie and say that things have always been easy.. they haven't. And yes, I've probably had more than my fair share of bad shit happen to me when I was way too young. Some of it has left me scarred and parts of me broken in a way that I'm not sure will ever be fixed, and I don't say that due to dramatics but to me, it's a simple truth. You don't experience what I did and come out of it the same person you would have been.

The truth of the matter is though, and ultimately is why I would not resist having biological children due to my illness, is that I like who I am. And for all the shit and the bad parts, I don't regret being alive and don't regret who I am for all of it. And as sappy and cliche as it is, there are some things that have come out of it that I can't be mad or angry at. My mom is one of those things- people have asked me, if I could turn back time and make it so my mother never killed herself, would I? I can't honestly say Yes, absolutely, to that question. She's been one of the most amazing and supporting people in my life. I also have an amazing relationship with my father, that was born out of necessity. My relationship with my brother is incredibly close as well because he experienced it all with me. When I think about it, what's to say if she hadn't killed herself that I'd be who I am today? That I'd be happy, that I'd have grown up in a family that was nothing but patient and supportive of me when I became ill and struggled to find my way back. And I feel like all of these trials and tribulations have ultimately given me so many small but important gifts, that are in my personality. I'm tough, and I don't doubt that about myself. I don't wallow in pity and self-despair. I don't let myself get kicked around without a fight. I feel an incredible amount of empathy for people who are suffering, no matter the cause, and I feel even better when I can provide even a shred of comfort. Watching my father suffer after her death taught me a lot about the nature of love, and what I wanted to get out of my own relationships.

I love life. The healthy, brain-chemicals in check, "real" Nikki loves life. I look forward to every new day, and to me, I'm not a bipolar person with a little Nikki thrown in there somewhere. I can safely say that I feel like I have plumbed the depths of hell when it comes to misery and fear and suffering. But the memory and knowledge of all of that contrasts so much with just normal, every day pleasures that I think a lot of people take for granted.

Like I said, it's really hard to explain it. But it's effected me so deeply and I've somehow came out as a person that I really like that I can't in good conscious regret any of it or wish it had been different.. in turn, if I had children who went through the exact same thing (and I don't think they would, even if they inherited my illness) I have faith and confidence that it's not a death knell or a guaranteed life of suffering. I don't regret being born and I don't think my kids ever would either.

[ElvenFury]

:grouphug:

Group hug.

[4a6c1]

But insisting that any other type of depression other than clinical is BS, is absurd and sad.

Hey, I didnt mean to offend you and I'm sorry if I did. I briefly did experience post partum depression and it was terrible so I can sympathize at least a little bit. I believe we are talking about two different things though. I have already conceded that Bipolar disorder and its symptoms should be treated with medication as a malfunction of the brain.

However, in my experience environmental depression diagnosed by itself with no underlying conditions can usually be treated with a sunlamp and a treadmill. Cabin fever right? I'm familiar with that too though not personally. Living near the north pole I saw plenty of it. And I dont see a difference between biological and genetic depression. I think that they usually do accompany a greater mental illness. Unfortunately I also think basic 'genetic depression' is greatly misdiagnosed based on behavioral flaws that have been picked up from parents.

I feed very much into the nurture bandwagon. I think that if an antisocial indoorsy 'depressed' adult has a child the child will absorb those behaviors and begin to exhibit depressed behaviors as well. If that depression is not paired with a greater psychosis it seems only common sense to try and correct the bad behaviors before prescribing medication.

[Clove]

Bipolar type I with psychosis (psychotic episodes and mood swings) has many things in common with schizophrenia (psychotic episodes), but they're different. Schizoaffective disorder, too (psychotic episodes and mood swings, but not at the same time).

Regardless, he shouldn't have been having kids. He and his wife had to have known that he was suffering some debilitation before this. He wasn't in his right mind- his wife was.

His wife is really to blame for any suffering the child will inevitably go through. The child gets to pay her dumbass tax.

Sorry about your buddy, man. It's a sad thing. Especially when he was failed so badly by those who were supposed to love him.Nothing like a eugenics advertisement to show your sympathy.

Ass.

[radamanthys]

Nothing like a eugenics advertisement to show your sympathy.

Ass.

Heh. Godwin a sympathy thread?

Ass.

[Fallen]

Nothing like a eugenics advertisement to show your sympathy.

Ass.

The Nazis gave eugenics a bad wrap. Family planning FTW. On another note, sucks a guy committed suicide.

[Clove]

Heh. Godwin a sympathy thread?

Ass.Godwin? Not at all jackass.



eu·gen·ics
   /yuˈdʒɛnɪks/ Show Spelled[yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun(used with a singular verb)
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).


I don't see any mention of Nazi or Hitler in the definition of "eugenics".

Suggesting that people ought not have kids because you think they might pass a flaw on seems pretty close to negative eugenics in my mind. It's ignorant. Tell me, do you suggest diabetics and hemophiliacs not have children either?

[Bobmuhthol]

Try using ignorant correctly.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Tell me, do you suggest diabetics and hemophiliacs not have children either?

He does, actually, so he isn't singling out the mentally ill specifically. Obviously I disagree with using genetics as a criteria for reproduction but he's pretty straight across the board with his opinion.

[Stanley Burrell]

Did he mention being put on any new medication or experimenting with some new shit? I haven't talked to Josh in a really long time. My naivety, maybe, doesn't want to believe that he finally crashed from perpetual bi-polar disorder, just like that. This whole thing is a damn shame.

[JaydinsMom]

Hi everyone ,


I just wanted to thank some of you for paying your respects to husband .. And I also wanted to say that just because my husband was mentally ill. does not mean he wasnt a great person but life just got to hard for him, and for some of you to sit on your high horse and tell people that we should of had children is completely childish and wrong , come on just because someone is mentally ill. doesnt mean they do not get the joy of having a life , Yes i am mad at him for leaving my son without a father but There is nothing i can do about it now , i tried to get him help , he did not want it .. But that is besides the point im trying to make here.. and as for my child being a "tax credit" please kindly go f*ck yourself.. I love my child , no matter how he got here and he is not my "piggy bank" .. I just cant believe that a great friend of mine would take the time of his life to post about my husband to let everyone know what happened . and then you turn into a big huge bit*h feast ! ..

[radamanthys]

Godwin? Not at all jackass.

I don't see any mention of Nazi or Hitler in the definition of "eugenics".


Oh, Clove. You are so brilliant to point out that to me! You are so right! Nobody ever makes the connection between eugenics and Nazism anymore! I mean, they're not connected in the least!

You're not stupid. You know they're connected just as well as I do. The entire concept was corrupted by the Nazis, which is the very reason you used it as some sort of veiled counterpoint to damage my integrity or credibility or something. Not really sure what you were trying to do, to be frank, other than impede reasonable discussion.



Suggesting that people ought not have kids because you think they might pass a flaw on seems pretty close to negative eugenics in my mind. It's ignorant. Tell me, do you suggest diabetics and hemophiliacs not have children either?

Pretty much, yea. But mind you it's just a loose suggestion. I'm not gonna go and tell Nikki, for example, that she is wholly incapable of raising a child properly. I happen to think she's a marvelous person and whatever shit she has going on is a marginal part of the greater whole of her personality. You also realize I did clarify the fact that I was making sweeping generalizations, right? Regardless, some people hunt with 10x weapons, some with 4x. Fortunately, some of those 4x hunters have flare. But in general, 10x'ers have a greater chance to hit than a 4x'er.

Fucking relax, man.

[SHAFT]

jesus, i remember seeing kranfer in game. unreal

i still don't get why people argue with one another on a message board about a game people don't even play any more. some people do of course, but not all of us.

[4a6c1]

I can haz eugenics?

We should definately enforce selective breeding in this country. Having one child per family has worked out really great for China. We will have a huge army in NO TIME. We might have to invade other countries for vagina though. Big woop.

[thefarmer]

.. and most people shouldn't be having kids. Especially drug addicts, the terminally ill, blah blah blah ... the list goes on.


My wife and I just had a son, knowing full well I have a a very grave health illness that will, no doubt, impact his life in many ways.

Do I wish I was 100% healthy? Sure. Did it stop us from having him? No.

If you really feel that strongly about overpopulation and all the other crap you listed.. why not help out the world and remove yourself from it? Because.. essentially you're saying that you count more than my son (based on MY health concerns).


Regardless, some people hunt with 10x weapons, some with 4x. Fortunately, some of those 4x hunters have flare. But in general, 10x'ers have a greater chance to hit than a 4x'er.

Fucking relax, man.

Horrible attempt to throw GS examples into it.

[Monotonous]

This is a typical end for people diagnosed bi-polar or schizophrenic who don't take their medication.

If you have ever been diagnosed as such, humor me and follow this mental exercise:



The doctor may have lied or been wrong, but I cannot know with certainty because this diagnosis means I may have an impaired mental state.

I don't think it is that bad, or really that I am sick at all, but someone with an impaired mental state would also think that.

I must submit to this logic and accept that I may be ill and self-delusional.

It is in the best interest of my family and friends to religiously take the unnecessary medication, even if that means a risk to myself, because the alternative means that I may hurt or kill myself or them.

Failure to accept all of the above statements as a valid logical progression means that you suffer from a mental impairment: Take your fucking meds you fucking nutjob.

[radamanthys]

Hi everyone ,


I just wanted to thank some of you for paying your respects to husband .. And I also wanted to say that just because my husband was mentally ill. does not mean he wasnt a great person but life just got to hard for him, and for some of you to sit on your high horse and tell people that we should of had children is completely childish and wrong , come on just because someone is mentally ill. doesnt mean they do not get the joy of having a life , Yes i am mad at him for leaving my son without a father but There is nothing i can do about it now , i tried to get him help , he did not want it .. But that is besides the point im trying to make here.. and as for my child being a "tax credit" please kindly go f*ck yourself.. I love my child , no matter how he got here and he is not my "piggy bank" .. I just cant believe that a great friend of mine would take the time of his life to post about my husband to let everyone know what happened . and then you turn into a big huge bit*h feast ! ..

It's the nature of the beast. Tragedy brings about discourse.

There is no doubt that mental illness can be a vicious malady. It's especially hard on the loved ones of those afflicted. It requires a special kind of person, and a special kind of love, to stand by a person while they're going through it- to keep from blaming them for their affliction. Especially when it comes to tragic ends. You're very right, just because they're afflicted with an illness does not make them less of a person.

I made a sweeping judgement earlier. It was not really anything personal, as I have no idea who the heck you are and have very little background with which to judge, save for what was mentioned. Harm was not my intent.

I'm sorry for your loss. It truly is a tragedy. And I truly apologize if reading this discourse made things harder for you.

[iJin]

Everyone needs to take a Xanax and chill.

[TheEschaton]

I think people who think you should go outside and/or get on a treadmill to cure their depression are a bit off. Serious depression (which this case seems to be) is a medical condition, like diabetes, or high blood pressure, or high cholesterol. Like all those things, sure, sunshine and exercise can lessen it a bit. but I happen to think genetics often overwhelms the environmental aspect of it.

My dad, at 30, was told he needed to watch his blood sugar because both his parents had diabetes. He's been on a diet for the last 25 years, cutting down his sugar to absurdly low levels. And he still got diabetes. And it continues to rise. Depression is similar, it waxes, it wanes, you can push it a bit either way, but the serious cases are the ones you cannot control.

The thing with depression is that most people tend to think that it's some sort of weakness due to some character flaw, that it indicates a lack of will, or discipline, or strength, or even common sense. People seem to think you can "get over it" by sheer force of will. Or, they might think you can "cure" it with medications in combination with aforementioned willpower. Neither is true.

Now, the problem is idiots can fake depression rather easily. Just look at emos. It's those types who give a legitimate illness a "boy who cries wolf" type feel to it. It's much harder to fake cancer.

-TheE-

[ElvenFury]

Everyone needs to take a Xanax and chill.
I'm deeply offended by your generalization. I, for one, don't need a Xanax at all

...but I'll take one if you have it. :yes:

[Clove]

Try using ignorant correctly.When you learn how to click a quote button I'll take your criticisms seriously.


He does, actually, so he isn't singling out the mentally ill specifically. Obviously I disagree with using genetics as a criteria for reproduction but he's pretty straight across the board with his opinion.At least he's consistent, but I consider eugenics disgusting.

[Clove]

Honestly folks, if your in trouble and you know it, get help, and if your family to someone who is troubled find them help, and maybe save them the trouble of a suicide. I did everything I could do to talk him off that ledge, talked to his friends, family, his social worker, but he was 100s of miles from me, and even then don't think I could have changed anything, nor did I have any legal standing to really do anything. All I know is I am left to pick up some of the mess of this trainwreck.You took his suffering seriously and provided him with a caring, sane(r) perspective. Having had similar experiences myself with suicidal friends and family, I'd like to thank you for doing what you could. Suicide is simply devastating.

[radamanthys]

I consider eugenics disgusting.

Why?

[Delias]

I don't really think this is the place to discuss eugenics. If you really find it to be worth talking about, start a new thread. I really find it somewhat disgusting what this thread has become, but knowing the internet, I don't know why I am surprised.

[Cephalopod]

Why?

Who do you feel should make the determination as to what dysgenic traits should be discouraged through eugenics?

[Cephalopod]

I don't really think this is the place to discuss eugenics. If you really find it to be worth talking about, start a new thread. I really find it somewhat disgusting what this thread has become, but knowing the internet, I don't know why I am surprised.

Why? This is an internet discussion forum. We discuss things.

Honestly, I've found this whole conversation interesting and not entirely combative.

What happened with Josh is sad, and it could have been prevented. Let's discuss it, rather than just weep and cry. If that discussion gets heated, we try to be adults and talk through it. (Obviously, this being the internet, that usually doesn't happen... but hey, sometimes we have good discussions here.)

While we're at it, check out the NKM2 (http://nkm2.org/) foundation. I've been following Joey Pants's organization for a while, and he's doing good work in bringing mental illness out in front of people.

[Xanator]

Anyway, I met Josh once at a Halloween party at Paul's house in 200...6? He seemed like a really bright, energetic, fun-loving kind of guy. It's hard for me to imagine having a mental disorder, and it's a shame that we still understand/try to understand so little about mental illness. I still don't endorse checking out like that, but I doubt the oft-labeled "easy way out" was an easy decision for him to make. It just always bums me out when there are kids left behind.

[Asha]

Jesus.

BI- Polar.

[kookiegod]

Why? This is an internet discussion forum. We discuss things.

Honestly, I've found this whole conversation interesting and not entirely combative.

What happened with Josh is sad, and it could have been prevented. Let's discuss it, rather than just weep and cry. If that discussion gets heated, we try to be adults and talk through it. (Obviously, this being the internet, that usually doesn't happen... but hey, sometimes we have good discussions here.)

While we're at it, check out the NKM2 (http://nkm2.org/) foundation. I've been following Joey Pants's organization for a while, and he's doing good work in bringing mental illness out in front of people.

Yep, I agree bro. Lets talk about it and heck, if any of you need to talk, PM me and i'll give you my cell.

If anything at all good is to come out of this its that people talk about it, rather than not and we end up discussing you one day, lets not end up dead today.

A couple folks reached out to me since this, I'm going to visit a buddy next week to talk about Josh, one friend told me he's going to visit his suicidal family member and be a bit proactive, so lets change our little corner (pun intended) of the world.

~Paul

[Asha]

Tempting just for the silly Yankee accent! :D

[radamanthys]

Who do you feel should make the determination as to what dysgenic traits should be discouraged through eugenics?

People themselves, certainly. I still am a freedom fellating libertarian, and all.

[Xanator]

People themselves, certainly. I still am a freedom fellating libertarian, and all.

Don't you wear glasses?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

People themselves, certainly. I still am a freedom fellating libertarian, and all.

Given the long list of people with mental illness that have contributed immensely to modern society and the lack of definitive genetic links (they know they're there, but it appears to be more a complicated map among various genetics as opposed to say, a single, simple bipolar gene) I just tend more towards that we don't know enough about human genetics to dare to dabble in it. In the creation of a strongest race of people (eugenics) we don't have the scientific knowledge to know what all is being eradicated by not reproducing certain seemingly undesirable traits. Creativity and mental illness in particular are rather interlinked.. would you create a strong race that lacked the ability to be creative? The issue to me comes down that it's ultimately subjective, what makes a good 'healthy' person and thus a good healthy race. Thus, the idea of eugenics to me is more than slightly repulsive because no one walking this earth has enough knowledge to make truly informed decisions in regards to reproduction. And as much as I laugh at movies like Idiocracy... I've watched children born to total fucktard parents grow up to be successful geniuses, and children born to genius parents grow up to be worthless, entitled leeches.

I guess what I'm driving at is that there's nature and nurture. I'm of the opinion that nature lays the foundation, and nurture builds the figurative house. No amount of nature can overcome or compensate for nurture. I care less that children are born with strong genetics- I care more that they're born to intelligent, good parents that will raise them into good people.

[Latrinsorm]

Why?Strictly applied eugenics would have prevented the existence of Beethoven and Allen Iverson. Surely that alone will convince you, but the full argument against eugenics is even more compelling. Consider the very notion of trying to select genes with human reproduction - a sperm reaching an egg from within a male is a one in a million chance, how exactly are you going to control that?

[radamanthys]

I care less that children are born with strong genetics- I care more that they're born to intelligent, good parents that will raise them into good people.

This!

I'm not advocating some eugenics-based genetic utopia. Clove attributed that to me, I never even claimed that I supported eugenics. The crux of what I'm saying doesn't even anything to do with genetics at all. I said that parents who have impairments (which could be a detriment to their ability to adequately raise a child) should choose not to reproduce. And in that, I say that impaired people who choose to reproduce and end up harming their children are certainly at fault for doing so.

That said, there are genetic factors I think we should screen for and choose not to pass on. Huntington's is a prime example.


Strictly applied eugenics would have prevented the existence of Beethoven and Allen Iverson. Surely that alone will convince you, but the full argument against eugenics is even more compelling. Consider the very notion of trying to select genes with human reproduction - a sperm reaching an egg from within a male is a one in a million chance, how exactly are you going to control that?

The best argument against eugenics is the lack of genetic diversity becoming a risk to the human species. As well, Ashkenazi Jews have selectively reproduced for years and now they're more susceptible to a host of diseases. Eugenics based solutions don't necessarily have strictly positive genetic benefits, rendering the main goal- genetic benefit- kinda moot.

I do think our solution lies in science and technology- I have a small, but present, transhumanist streak. But not in widespread genetic engineering.


Don't you wear glasses?

Yea, I have a very minimal nearsightedness. My script is around -.25 or some-such.

I also have EDS, which is a genetic condition.

[thefarmer]

I said that parents who have impairments (which could be a detriment to their ability to adequately raise a child) should choose not to reproduce. And in that, I say that impaired people who choose to reproduce and end up harming their children are certainly at fault for doing so.

At fault because YOU decide?

What gives you that right?

I'll ask it again, since I guess you missed my earlier post in reply to yours, why are you more important than my son?

[radamanthys]

At fault because YOU decide?

What gives you that right?

I'll ask it again, since I guess you missed my earlier post in reply to yours, why are you more important than my son?

At fault because that's how fault works. Think cause and effect, here.

I enjoy having the freedom to have my own opinions.

Aaaand lastly... Because I'm more important than your son, obviously.

[Xanator]

Yea, I have a very minimal nearsightedness. My script is around -.25 or some-such.

I also have EDS, which is a genetic condition.

So were either of your parents similarly myopic?

[Cephalopod]

That said, there are genetic factors I think we should screen for and choose not to pass on. Huntington's is a prime example.


You just decided that 'This Land is Your Land' should never have existed, and this book (http://www.amazon.com/Funny-Thing-Happened-Way-Future/dp/1401323863) should never have been written.

[thefarmer]

Aaaand lastly... Because I'm more important than your son, obviously.

Clearly

[4a6c1]

This!


Yea, I have a very minimal nearsightedness. My script is around -.25 or some-such.

I also have EDS, which is a genetic condition.

He is a detriment to the superior human race that we are building. KEEL HEEM!!

[Clove]

At fault because that's how fault works. Think cause and effect, here.

I enjoy having the freedom to have my own opinions.

Aaaand lastly... Because I'm more important than your son, obviously.


Why?It's not my fault eugenics is associated with Nazism. Nazis didn't invent it anymore than they invented the dive bomber; if you consider it a harmless concept why the defensiveness? I didn't Godwin the thread, I named your philosophy for what it is- eugenics.

As for why, how about these reasons?

Abraham Lincoln – Marfan Syndrome
Albert Einstein – Dyslexia
Emily Dickinson – Bipolar Disorder
Jackie Joyner-Kersee - Asthma
John F. Kennedy – Addison’s Disease
Ray Charles – Primary Glaucoma
Rita Hayworth – Alzheimer’s Disease
Stephen Hawking – Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
Vincent Van Gogh – Epilepsy

You have a very narrow view of "fault" and "flaw" and regardless of your right to an opinion you have no right to criticize a woman for having a child with a man because you think it might be wrong to possibly pass on a potential genetic flaw. Frankly, it was a douche thing to post and not at all conducive to a "rational discussion".

[Latrinsorm]

I said that parents who have impairments (which could be a detriment to their ability to adequately raise a child) should choose not to reproduce. ... At fault because that's how fault works. Think cause and effect, here.Do you consider choice a cause or an effect?

[radamanthys]

It's not my fault eugenics is associated with Nazism. Nazis didn't invent it anymore than they invented the dive bomber; if you consider it a harmless concept why the defensiveness? I didn't Godwin the thread, I named your philosophy for what it is- eugenics.

....

You have a very narrow view of "fault" and "flaw" and regardless of your right to an opinion you have no right to criticize a woman for having a child with a man because you think it might be wrong to possibly pass on a potential genetic flaw. Frankly, it was a douche thing to post and not at all conducive to a "rational discussion".

I'm not being 'defensive'. You're incorrect in your interpretation of my argument. If you wanna keep arguing eugenics, it'd be just as easy to talk aloud to the corner of your room- it's not what I'm discussing.

Here's another, more simple example to my actual point. A woman has a child with a man who she knows is a violent alcoholic. Child, to no surprise, is violently abused. I'm saying that the woman who chose to bear a child in those circumstances takes a share of the blame. The alcoholic is to blame for not only beating his child senseless, but for bearing a child to live in his crosshairs. Same with a woman who bears a child in abject poverty. It's not the kid's fault that it starved, it's the parents fault for bearing a child in a circumstance where it could not be fed. And so on.

Why is this such a hard concept for people? All I'm saying is that if you're not able to adequately raise a child, you shouldn't have one.

You not reading my posts and idly screaming "eugenics!" is more deleterious to rational discussion than anything else. If you're gonna argue, why not make it about something I actually have argued for? Selectively choosing to breed based on ability to raise a kid is not genetic selection. Perhaps a genetic disorder would render a person poorly equipped to become a parent, but that's as far as that goes.


You just decided that 'This Land is Your Land' should never have existed, and this book (http://www.amazon.com/Funny-Thing-Happened-Way-Future/dp/1401323863) should never have been written.

If a parent knows that they'll pass on a debilitating disease like Huntington's, should they procreate anyway knowing that they'll be condemning their child? Should parents not be given the choice- testing and screening shouldn't be done for things such as this?

I'm actually asking your opinion, here.


He is a detriment to the superior human race that we are building. KEEL HEEM!!

Am not! I like my syndrome!


Clearly

Mmhmm. It's true. I'm just that awesome.

[Latrinsorm]

All I'm saying is that if you're not able to adequately raise a child, you shouldn't have one.I think this statement illustrates very clearly the fundamental problem with your analysis: people do a poor job of predicting the future in general, and people do a terrible job of predicting the future when it comes to people (including themselves). Take your violent alcoholic example. Do you know that having a child won't compel the father to give up alcohol for life? Can you even form reasonable expectations, given the dramatic changes fatherhood has historically generated?

Or, turned around, do you know that having a child won't compel an easy-going, emotionally stable father to become a violent alcoholic? If you are concerned with probabilities and possibilities, aren't you obliged to the conclusion that no one should have children? Every man might be a monster.

[Clove]

That said, I have no idea what you're actually arguing there. You say "fuck you, bipolar people should have kids", then say "it's the worst hell imaginable". It might just be me, but it doesn't really seem to reinforce your point. You go on to talk about how your mother's illness was difficult and had, to some degree, a negative impact on your life. Do you think it is the most wise decision for a person to procreate given the severity of the illness as well as the genetic possibility to bestow that (self-proclaimed) hell on your child? Perhaps you wrestle with the issue yourself and would much rather the decision be made by you and not some societal presupposition? Even if you don't... Shit, I would.


At least he's consistent, but I consider eugenics disgusting.


Why?


Who do you feel should make the determination as to what dysgenic traits should be discouraged through eugenics?


People themselves, certainly. I still am a freedom fellating libertarian, and all.


I'm not advocating some eugenics-based genetic utopia. Clove attributed that to me, I never even claimed that I supported eugenics...
That said, there are genetic factors I think we should screen for and choose not to pass on. Huntington's is a prime example.



I'm not being 'defensive'. You're incorrect in your interpretation of my argument. If you wanna keep arguing eugenics, it'd be just as easy to talk aloud to the corner of your room- it's not what I'm discussing.Eugenics is precisely what you've been discussing.

[radamanthys]

Eugenics is precisely what you've been discussing.

I think I was clear in my original argument. And then I refuted you more than once now, saying that I don't agree with it totally. When are you going to give up and realize you're arguing something that doesn't exist? Are you trying to tell me that I somehow secretly support eugenics and I'm just not telling you? It's absurd.

I asked people's opinions. That, to me (and in the real world), doesn't mean that I support something. It means that I'm asking people's opinions. I was genuinely asking Nikki her opinion on the matter- she has first hand experience. I don't troll, trying to find someone misspeak in order to prove them wrong or trap them in some trick answer.

In response to an earlier statement by you, I wrote simply "Why?", and you somehow read, "ZOMG I SUPPORT EUGENICS HURRR". You said you find eugenics disgusting... I asked why. Because I wanted to know the answer. That's a fairly hardcore answer for an issue that's so far from black-and-white.

The response to Nachos should have been clarified. I didn't respond as I should have. If that confused you, I'm sorry. But I do support planned parenthood.

I will NOT keep explaining this to you. I specifically explained why I don't support eugenics. You can re-read my earlier posts and if you want further clarification, I will be happy to provide it. I won't hold your hand while you attempt to learn to read through your rage.

So please, just stop. So we can continue talking like adults and I don't have to write these diatribes explaining away every little nuance of something that may have, when read in a certain way, possibly, on the third monday after a month of a blue moon be read that I support eugenics.


I think this statement illustrates very clearly the fundamental problem with your analysis: people do a poor job of predicting the future in general, and people do a terrible job of predicting the future when it comes to people (including themselves). Take your violent alcoholic example. Do you know that having a child won't compel the father to give up alcohol for life? Can you even form reasonable expectations, given the dramatic changes fatherhood has historically generated?

Or, turned around, do you know that having a child won't compel an easy-going, emotionally stable father to become a violent alcoholic? If you are concerned with probabilities and possibilities, aren't you obliged to the conclusion that no one should have children? Every man might be a monster.

You're right, nobody can predict the future. But I still wear my seatbelt in the car. You know?

Bad marriages rarely reform after a child is born- they get worse. Poverty usually gets worse, as well. And so on. Sure, a kid could turn around and beat the dad back and teach him a lesson. But not before being beaten for the first, say, 15-20 years.

Does your point indemnify the wife in my example? My claim was that if the violent drunk beats the kid, it'd be the wife's fault, too. She can't exactly say, "I couldn't have seen this coming!" when she was getting beaten herself every friday night.

Unless, of course, nurture has nothing to do with the way a person turns out. That it's all nature...

[nub]

:popcorn:


jk...


I've dealt with some people with the disease (my ex), just like someone else did. It wasn't pretty... it's very sad and I feel very bad for them.

To be so depressed that you can't handle it anymore that you off yourself is very sad. I couldn't imagine that burden, I've seen people on the edge and the burden they are carrying for whatever reason seems pretty damn awful.

[Xanator]

He is a detriment to the superior human race that we are building. KEEL HEEM!!

That's what I was getting at. When I said:


So were either of your parents similarly myopic?

He was supposed to say something to the effect of,


Yes, my mother and father are both dreadfully near-sighted.

To which I would've had the divine fortune to reply,


LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY!

But, c'est la vie, even the bright, flashing lights, bold-lettered signs, and gentle hand-holding around the soft curves of my carefully laid tracks weren't enough to keep his Thomas the Tank Engine train of thought on rails. What do you expect? Can't breed right, can't see right, can't do nothin' right.

[4a6c1]

You are correct. He is correct. We are all correct. Very correct.

It is good to be correct.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k405/viennaprelude/eugenics_poster.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

Bad marriages rarely reform after a child is born- they get worse. Poverty usually gets worse, as well.I won't ask you for empirical statistics supporting these claims. Rarely and usually necessarily imply that for some cases the situation improves, for some people having a child is exactly what they need for redemption, salvation even.
Does your point indemnify the wife in my example?Of course. A person's best possible prediction is exactly equal to what they can reasonably foresee, which for human beings is an almost pitifully small field. Anything else is blind luck, and it is poor form to credit or castigate someone for blind luck.
Unless, of course, nurture has nothing to do with the way a person turns out.Do you see? If people (children) can change, then people (their parents) can change. Do you see?

[iJin]

I stand by my last xanax comment.

[Clove]

I think I was clear in my original argument. And then I refuted you more than once now, saying that I don't agree with it totally. When are you going to give up and realize you're arguing something that doesn't exist? Are you trying to tell me that I somehow secretly support eugenics and I'm just not telling you? It's absurd.Your statements and arguments speak for themselves. What's absurd is you on the one hand criticizing people with what you consider genetic defects for reproducing or considering and on the other hand denying that you don't support negative eugenics.

Man up. Quit backpedaling.