Dev: Staff of the Proselyte (340)

[thefarmer]

Staff of the Proselyte (340) · on 5/11/2010 10:48:10 PM 2899


Reply
Hi, all,

We've been working on a design for 340 and want to solicit player feedback on the proposal.

Staff of the Proselyte (340): Clerics are called upon to convert new followers to their flock and to punish the unrepentant. When cast upon the target's runestaff, the caster receives a Spirit CS or bolt AS bonus equal to 5 + the cleric's (INF bonus / 2) for the next few warding or bolt spells. It has base duration of 2 casts + 1 additional cast per (Spiritual Lore, Blessings skill / 50). If the targets spell is cast against an opposing alignment of the cleric (Bane/Smite) then there is an additional +CS/AS modifier equal to the cleric's (WIS bonus / 3). In addition, when the attack is made, instead of adding a d100, it will use 50 + d50 (similar to the Truehand CMAN). To gain the benefit of this effect, the target would CHANT to their runestaff, initiating the buff for the next cast.

To summarize, you'd receive about ~+25 CS/AS with your next attack spell and use a 50 + d50 roll in the attack formula. It is castable on others, but it only works on runestaves and only people with sufficient runestaff training can active it. With reasonable training, you can get about 4 charges per cast.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

.

[waywardgs]

Seems like the GM's are trying to weed out mutant builds, or at least drive people into more "classic" ideas of professions.

[Swami71]

Do not want!!!

Runestaves suck ass. They need to fix runestaves to bond to them or something. Disarm makes them worthless.

[thefarmer]

Seems like the GM's are trying to weed out mutant builds, or at least drive people into more "classic" ideas of professions.

This has always been the case.

[thefarmer]

Do not want!!!

Runestaves suck ass. They need to fix runestaves to bond to them or something. Disarm makes them worthless.

Disarm makes every non Warrior or Paladin weapon worthless though. I don't see why this makes runestaves specifically suck ass.

[Inspire]

I would rather take a cleric brawl/shield. Tons more DS.

[Fallen]

So +25 CS for 3-4 casts for 40 mana a pop. Nifty? Fits the mold for boring, yet practical cleric spells.

[Swami71]

Disarm makes every non Warrior or Paladin weapon worthless though. I don't see why this makes runestaves specifically suck ass.

This doesn't make them suck. Its just not enough to make me start using one.

[TheLastShamurai]

So +25 CS for 3-4 casts for 40 mana a pop. Nifty? Fits the mold for boring, yet practical cleric spells.

Yeah it's like giving me more AS for a few swings. Kinda redundant.

[radamanthys]

Like spirit strike. Only for 1/3 the effect and 23 more mana, but effects CS. Sorta like a quartz orb.

[Ugotfaced]

For 40 mana, they could make it a lot better than that.. Kind of makes you sad THIS is why monks aren't out yet.

[AMUSED1]

Considering this nor monks are out yet, aren't you just assuming?

[B2]

Category: Clerics
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message number: 2902
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/11/2010 11:13:34 PM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)

>>What's to stop a player from keeping it up constantly by either casting it over and over.

The duration would be refreshable, not stackable.

>>or even pre-loading it into a cloakful of runestaves?
Then that's a lot of extra effort and encumbrance to deal with. If we see that it's a problem, I'm sure we can come up with a solution, but I don't envision this being a desirable strategy.

= - GM Oscuro - =
Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

Category: Clerics
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message number: 2899
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/12/2010 12:13:00 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)

>I guess I find it hard to believe that a mid to upper level cleric can't afford to keep it up constantly, even being refreshable. Though I freely admit I don't have the gamewide date to back it up. -farmer

40 mana for 4 charges? That'll work out to be around 2 creatures per cast. Most mid level clerics don't even have the mana to use Divine Fury as a staple.


>Basically, +25 CS for near capped-capped clerics. I didn't know they were lacking in that department. The 50+50 thing seems nice, but eh. Boring, yet useful. Pushes Clerics towards wrack heavy runestaff users, which will just be another reason used to nerf wracking. -CORDELIA

If Sign of Wracking gets modified, it won't be because of this spell.


..So.. you cast this at your own runestaff? Does this mean I have to keep my runestaff now?-PULSEGIVER

Yes, it'll work on your own runestaff. No, you don't have to keep your runestaff - you can give it to me.


>>What about clerics who don't want to use runestaves? - LADYFLEUR

Then you can still cast the spell on others, but you won't receive any benefit. We have similar spells like Divine Shield (1609), where we encourage but don't require certain play styles.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Izzy]

The 50 + d50 effectively makes it +75 to your roll in the end, not just +25. That's 4 spirit strikes, AND it affects CS. Kind of expensive, but coupled with 240 you could wreck some face pretty quickly. Also, adding INF as a modifier allows for even more growth. If you max out inf enhancives (which probably go pretty cheap, who buys inf?!), you're adding another +20. All in all, pretty solid imo. The runestaff requirement is retarded, though. It shouldn't be a weapon requirement at all, just a buff.

Edit: Missed the alignment bonus part. Maxed wis/inf enhancives (tricky, but not impossible) and you're looking at +107 endroll for up to 6 attacks.

[Kitsun]

One of us is misinterpreting. From my understanding you don't get a +50 +d50 on top of the normal roll. Your normal d100 gets turned into a 50 + d50.

[Anebriated]

very shitty to have a spell that late in the circle be so build specific. This is a spell my cleric will never cast.

[TheLastShamurai]

very shitty to have a spell that late in the circle be so build specific. This is a spell my cleric will never cast.

Well they said that they're looking for feedback, so if enough people were against the rune staff component they would probably change it.

[Celephais]

One of us is misinterpreting. From my understanding you don't get a +50 +d50 on top of the normal roll. Your normal d100 gets turned into a 50 + d50.
I think he's saying that swapping a d100 for a d50+50 is like getting a +50 from the start. It's actually more like getting another +25 on average (but in practice I would call it better than +25, as most people have a small 'miss' threshold, that being raised above it constantly is worthwhile).

very shitty to have a spell that late in the circle be so build specific. This is a spell my cleric will never cast.
Agreed, kind of late in the circle, it would be pretty cool if they made it lower level with scaling benefits/cost.

Well they said that they're looking for feedback, so if enough people were against the rune staff component they would probably change it.

Shield/Brawling is the way to go, I only think I'd switch to runestaff if it were a buff you could keep up constantly (no per cast requirement, something like a 425 duration). It's just not worth exposing yourself to being disarmed and losing out on the easy shield DS for the trade-off. I don't see them making that build any more powerful. (besides, they already came up with this really cool name for the spell!)

[Anebriated]

IMHO this should be a spirit version of 425.

[Kitsun]

I don't see it being a big deal to get a 2lb runestaff, cast 340 on it, stow it, then when you need, pull it out, chant, stow, cast. Only need to hold a runestaff for as long as you need to activate a blue crystal.

[Anebriated]

no its not a huge deal but the fact that a cleric has to go through all that just because he chooses not use use a newer form of defense in the game is just sad.

[Celephais]

I don't see it being a big deal to get a 2lb runestaff, cast 340 on it, stow it, then when you need, pull it out, chant, stow, cast. Only need to hold a runestaff for as long as you need to activate a blue crystal.

The bonus comes from the staff, so your example would need to be changed to, pull it out, chant, cast, cast, cast, cast, stow (with optional stow/ready in between casts).

If you cast something that does not have hard RT, you can keep the staff out of your hand for the majority of the time.

The problem is that it takes away any open hand bonus you might be trying to utilize, and having a runestaff and a shield probably F's your DS entirely for that split second.

[Izzy]

One of us is misinterpreting. From my understanding you don't get a +50 +d50 on top of the normal roll. Your normal d100 gets turned into a 50 + d50.

Fair point. It's not always effectively a +75. Anything that would've rolled under 50 is effective gain, though. Or, I'm pulling math out of my ass. It made more sense earlier.


I don't see it being a big deal to get a 2lb runestaff, cast 340 on it, stow it, then when you need, pull it out, chant, stow, cast. Only need to hold a runestaff for as long as you need to activate a blue crystal.

It also says you have to be trained to use the runestaff, which I assume means 8 magical ranks/level. Some (if not many) lower/mid level clerics don't meet this if they're shield/brawl.

[Kitsun]

Point taken. I'm not exactly excited about the spell even though I can use it. I'd even prefer a super beefy Crusade to this.

[SpiffyJr]

I haven't played a cleric for a while but I enjoy changes that make professions choose which path they want to specialize in. Currently, shield/brawl is far more "powerful" than using a runestaff. This change eliminates some of the disparity.

[Fallen]

.


Nick
How does this interact with Spirit Slayer?


It won't. The effect ends immediately after your cast, so it's not present for Spirit Slayer (240). Spirit Strike (117) works similarly.

RATHBONER
I don't like the use of the INF bonus. INF racial bonuses are set for face to face interactions between intelligent races. If your race is small or generally despised, you get a racial penalty. If your race is tall you get a racial bonus. You could argue that an elf should be able to boost a dwarf more than the dwarf boosts an elf, but I don't think an elf should be able to boost themself more than a dwarf could boost themself. If INF bonus counts, it should be the difference between cleric and target. Or just use stat/4 rather than bonus/2 in the fornula.


http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp

Influence: A person's ability to influence others. Some aspects of Influence include leadership, inspiration, persuasion, intimidation, fear, presence, and personal charm or magnetism. Magic or abilities that affect the target's mind or emotions are typically more powerful for casters with a high Influence attribute.

Given the spell's concept, it makes perfect sense to use influence.

RATHBONER
That is more reasonable. I still dont like Luukosian clerics give better bonuses than Koar's clerics to Charl's followers though.


You'll have to take that up with the Dark God. :P

KRAKII
Estild, does the spell stay in effect on the item when it is not a runestaff? (i.e. the convertible/wearable [bracelet, headband, belt] runestaves from <some merchant event several years ago>.) Because I could totally see getting a full set [bracelet, headband, belt] and wearing a dozen charges of the spell, in addition to the charges on my runestaff.


My initial impression is yes, the effect would last if you convert the runestaff into another item, but you would only be able to activate it when it is a runestaff. However, I am not sure I like the idea of loading up on charged runestaves, so we may do something to circumvent that.

KRAKII
Can the sword-canes be converted over so that the "cane" form is deemed to be a runestaff/2Hand weapon, rather than a fluff prop (which is what I believe it is now)? (Basically, this (1HEdged/2Hand)would turn them into bastard swords [only they'd be a "stick" rather than a "sword"].)


Item conversions rarely happen and definitely don't happen so you can make use of new spells. :P

Galenok
So, perhaps my issue isn't so much just regarding this spell but more the design philosophy for how all the spells over level 25 seem to be implemented.


That's understandable, but given that we already have hundreds of unique spells in the game, it's exceedingly difficult to come up with new unique ideas. We're always open to suggestions from players though.

KRAKII
Actually, non-staff users probably have no Aimed Spells skill (since they're not RuneStaffing, they don't care about cheap magical skills) and therefor...are probably using Really Big Weapons [2Hand or Pole Arms], which--given the training point costs--means that it will likely cost them precisely 0 DS to whip out a buffed RuneStaff to get the CS boost for their setup spell before switching back to the big stick to beat the critter to death with.


Not likely, as you must be able to effectively wield a runestaff to activate the effect. At the minimum, this would require 8 magical ranks per level. (We understand that's possible for even some mutant builds, so the 8 ranks per level is just an estimate).

KRAKII
It sounds like a neat utility spell. There for when you need it, but not a "use on every hunt for every cast" sort of thing.


If it's being used for every cast on a hunt, we'll probably make an update to prohibit such activity. However, I do think it'll be used on every hunt since the idea is that you're casting it when not hunting. I envision my cleric using up all the charges each hunt. If I know I'm on my last creature for a hunt, I'm going to burn the charges since I'll just recast the spell while resting.

RATHBONER
Is the "trained for a staff" requirement going to be a minimum number of magic ranks, which will make it impossible for non-pures to use pre-cap, but will not stop weapon trained pures using it by swapping their weapon for a staff when they want to?


It'll require a certain number of magical ranks per level.

Galenok
Sorry, this is what I dislike most about it. It really is only good for grizzleds and invasions. If you need it to hunt otherwise, you are doing it wrong.


Clerics certainly don't need the spell. It just makes things easier every once in a while. If we only made updates on the basis of need, the game would be rather static.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team
*

[StrayRogue]

My cleric never had a CS problem. Not levelling, not at cap. Not very exciting. Especially if it's runestave only. Why not make it a holy symbol you're wearing and change the stupid spell name?

[Fallen]

Someone suggested that you could use the spell to lock disarm attempts at 1 charge a pop. I like it.

[Celephais]

Someone suggested that you could use the spell to lock disarm attempts at 1 charge a pop. I like it.

I had to read this some seven times to figure out that lock = block. Some typos are way harder to figure out than others, this one shouldn't have been :(

[Fallen]

I misspelled this post from my Iphone!

[Asrial]

Someone suggested that you could use the spell to lock disarm attempts at 1 charge a pop. I like it.Except it's not fair to other runestaff users. Disarm protection should NOT be limited to one profession.

[Fallen]

Except it's not fair to other runestaff users. Disarm protection should NOT be limited to one profession.

Neither is one profession being able to resurrect themselves. Professions have advantages over each other. That's how the game works.

[Celephais]

Except it's not fair to other runestaff users. Disarm protection should NOT be limited to one profession.


Neither is one profession being able to resurrect themselves. Professions have advantages over each other. That's how the game works.

Let's not forget that you can cast this on someone else's runestaff. If they made a charge block a disarm attempt, hell take away the CS boost, it'd be a great spell for encouraging the runestaff route over shield/brawl.

[B2]

I don't see it being a big deal to get a 2lb runestaff, cast 340 on it, stow it, then when you need, pull it out, chant, stow, cast. Only need to hold a runestaff for as long as you need to activate a blue crystal.

This should work fine I imagine as long as you have the magical requirements necessary to use a runestaff. If you don't have what is it, 8 magic ranks per level, you won't be able to chant to the runestaff to use this spell.

[Fallen]

DgryYou guys not acknowleging the fact that people WILL pile 10 runestaves (40 pounds, big whoop for a pure caster) in their containers other than to say if it is a problem then it'll be fixed. It will be a problem.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=25&topic=2&message=2943 (http://www.play.net/forums/redirect.asp?URL=http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=25&topic=2&message=2943)

"However, I am not sure I like the idea of loading up on charged runestaves, so we may do something to circumvent that."

I'll go ahead and go a step further and say that if we implement the spell as proposed, we're going to enforce a restriction to prevent such abuse. Probably along of the lines of once you activate the effect from a runestaff, you can't activate the effect from a different runestaff for a duration of time.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

.

[Asrial]

Neither is one profession being able to resurrect themselves. Professions have advantages over each other. That's how the game works.Self-resurrection fits more in line with a cleric than protecting a runestaff from getting disarmed.

Runestaff protection should be a guild skill for all pures (and it should be 66% or 75% as effective as the warrior disarm defense from their guild; rank 5 in the cman is the same as guild mastery in that skill right?)

..but hey.. if you want to advocate clerics getting all the unique abilities.. I'm all for that ;)

Don't get me wrong. Clerics are the best profession in the game and deserve all the development that goes on..

..but I do try to step back and look at things without a bias ;P

[Fallen]

If they're the best profession in the game, they no longer deserve development.

[Asrial]

I was talking more from a selfish perspective.

[Methais]

Disarm makes every non Warrior or Paladin weapon worthless though. I don't see why this makes runestaves specifically suck ass.

Because runestaff users aren't sporting a shield in the other hand.

[Sylvan Dreams]

A lackluster spell is better than an empty spell slot, IMO.

[Archigeek]

We each have our weaknesses. Potentially getting disarmed is a weakness for pures who use runestaves, just as it's a weakness for a weapon using square, albeit less so. Why should one profession get immunity? And one block immunity is really effectively permanent immunity in all but extreme circumstances, since you can just re-cast it.

Also, it isn't like shield/brawl pures don't have a weakness too: sunder shield. Just ask the pures who hunt the scatter how much they like that one. I expect more critters to evolve and incorporate that maneuver.

[Latrinsorm]

Runestaff protection should be a guild skill for all pures (and it should be 66% or 75% as effective as the warrior disarm defense from their guild; rank 5 in the cman is the same as guild mastery in that skill right?)Why?

[Asrial]

Why?What specifically are you asking about?

My reasoning is...

- Clerics should not get disarm defense.

- If clerics DO get disarm defense.. it should really be for all pures.

- If all pures get it.. the best way to deliver it is as a guild skill.

..and finally..

- If it's delivered as a guild skill.. it should not be 100% comparable to the warrior guild skill or cman training (as that takes away a bit of uniqueness to warriors and people who invest in the CM training).

[Latrinsorm]

Why should it be for all pures rather than one pure?

[Fallen]

Why should it be for all pures rather than one pure?

If I had to make an argument it would be, "Because runestaff usage is shared across all pure professions, and is not pure specific."

[Kitsun]

Counter Argument: Professional Differentiation

I'm not even sure that the whole disarm thing is worth discussing anyway. The spell needs to be cast on a runestaff but there isn't a damn thing in the flavor or mechanics that indicate that anti-disarm can even come onto the plate for this spell.

I find it funny that people seem to be split on whether it is overpowered, junk or not useful for them. I wouldn't even view it as a runestaff you need to keep out, I'd see it as a 3lb wand of True Strike you whip out, chant, kick ass and put away. It may not even be required to have an offhand empty when using this, so you can keep your shield out.

[Asrial]

If I had to make an argument it would be, "Because runestaff usage is shared across all pure professions, and is not pure specific."Yeah. It just doesn't make sense for it be a cleric specific thing because it's a shared issue.

[Methais]

A lackluster spell is better than an empty spell slot, IMO.

Not really, because once that slot is filled with garbage you're stuck with it.

Which would you be happier with:

- New 40th level spell that gives +1 AS for one attack.

or...

- Empty spell slot that might one day be filled with something cool and useful.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Not really, because once that slot is filled with garbage you're stuck with it.

Which would you be happier with:

- New 40th level spell that gives +1 AS for one attack.

or...

- Empty spell slot that might one day be filled with something cool and useful.

It's not unprecedented for spells to be moved around, even into other spell circles.

Personally, I don't think it's deserving of a 40th level slot. It's not without it's use, but it seems a little weak for that high level a slot.

[Stunseed]

Given the GM who is working on it and listens to feedback, I'd rather have it than not ( I haven't played my cleric in like 5 years ).

[StrayRogue]

Wait, clerics can self-rezz?

[Stunseed]

350, bro.

[Latrinsorm]

Not really, because once that slot is filled with garbage you're stuck with it.

Which would you be happier with:

- New 40th level spell that gives +1 AS for one attack.

or...

- Empty spell slot that might one day be filled with something cool and useful.It is not the case that spells are stuck once implemented - Intervention, triply redundant spell slots for resurrection/healing. Given Simu's track record with cool and useful things that might one day happen, I'd take the sure AS if I was still playing a cleric. Tiny use multiplied by a period of years is always greater than awesome use multiplied by a period of zero.

[Sylvan Dreams]

If they're the best profession in the game, they no longer deserve development.

That's why sorcerers aren't getting any dev. They bragged too much for too long about how they were the best.

[audioserf]

Runestaffs suck, and the GMs are evidently pushing that as the primary pure build. That's a shame.

[crb]

IMHO this should be a spirit version of 425.

You don't want 425, it is a fake bonus, all critters have TDs higher against elemental spells to accomodate for it.

All it is is a mana sink and a dispel target.

[crb]

This should work fine I imagine as long as you have the magical requirements necessary to use a runestaff. If you don't have what is it, 8 magic ranks per level, you won't be able to chant to the runestaff to use this spell.

8 ranks is really really really easy to get.

[crb]

Why should it be for all pures rather than one pure?

A question one could ask is, if any pure were to get disarm defense, why should it be the pure who already has, BY FAR, the cheapest method of training in CMAN disarm to thus get it naturally?

[Latrinsorm]

Their cheapest cost indicates they are supposed to be better.

[crb]

Sure, at physical defense, but your argument makes the logical leap from cheap physical begetting something magical. Which makes little sense.

[StrayRogue]

Their cheapest cost indicates they are supposed to be better.

This is reflected in warriors vs. rogues. They have cheaper CM costs and have better defenses (and in most cases immune with bonding) to disarming.

[Latrinsorm]

Sure, at physical defense, but your argument makes the logical leap from cheap physical begetting something magical. Which makes little sense.My argument is that the design intent is for clerics to be generally superior at this.

[Mikalmas]

After some additional discussion, we're going to amend the proposal to use symbols instead of runestaves. (We had discussed this a few days before Dgry's post...I think he may be a Savant).

We'll be doing a review to automatically update most scripted symbols, but we may also offer special merchants to convert ones that cannot be done automatically. Outside of that, we'll be updating the obelisks in the new Zul Logoth shrine to generate unlimited symbols, so that you may stock up and hand them out to your converts.

You'll only be able to grant the effect to symbols which match your deity and it's going to consume 2 spirit points. If you're granting this buff while resting, as we mostly intend, then this additional cost is minor. Using it out in the field will require a bit more discretion. Lastly, we're increasing the base charges from 2 to 3.

* Empaths will receive the full bonus until we implement the Minor Mental circle, at which we'll be converting the 1100s into a spirit/mental hybrid circle, thus only granting half the bonus.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Uh..Aren't sorcerers part spiritual too?