GM Tiqal on Romulus' Vision and Tarakan's Ranting

[Fallen]

So...Tarakan is a functional retard. He is upset about the CS changes for sorcerers, proving that yes, sorcs will bitch about anything.
----


I wasn't going to respond after the first post, but I think it's time to put this to rest.

>GM Romulus' goal to diversify our profession into distinct specialities was never officially discredited by GM Nilven or any subsequent guru or producer. As such, it should remain the assumed working paradigm for our objectives in balance and design.

Just because none of the GMs since have stated directly that Romulus' design is not the one they have in mind does not mean that the paradigm has not shifted. Further, an amazing amount has changed since the late '90s and his proposed paradigm, as it stood, would not really hold up in the game we have now. This is from someone who liked his ideas (mostly) back then.

>Mere knowledge of the spell ranks alone, then, should not confer any benefit across spheres...

I could agree with that if things were different. Things are the way they are, however, which made a sorcerer with any number of ranks of either of their minor circles less effective with their spells than a cleric, wizard or empath (the other hybrid pure) equivalently trained. These changes only served to bring sorcerers up to parity and create a sort of equilibrium.

Previously, a cleric could be as good with empath spells as an empath could be with cleric spells. They could also be as good with sorcerer spells as one another, but the sorcerer could not be as good with either cleric or empath spells, nor with their minor spirit spells, as either of the other two. Similarly, a wizard could be better with sorcerer spells than a sorcerer could ever be with wizard or major elemental spells. Sorcerers were obviously disadvantaged in this system, thus we changed it. This matched up well with the general paradigm of diversity that professional development has followed since the advent of GS4.

>...maybe when a sorcerer mastered 200 ranks of mana control in each sphere, a benefit like this might unlock... A better benefit would have been to increase the benefit of our minor circles to our SORCERER CS...

That could not possibly be acheived before level 99 and could not realistically be acheived until well post-cap. As well, any ability that could permanently increase any profession's base CS would have to be accounted for in the design of all creatures that it might be used against.

>I would not be so quick to defend a benefit of dubious value to our profession when it has such limited necessity to our core pathway to success, undermines the unique benefits of choosing the spiritual pathway over the elementalist specialization...

What about this is of dubious value? It gives you more options. Since when is having a wider range of options a bad thing? Was it necessary for you to be successful? No, but it may make you consider other possible paths that were not previously viable. This change does not mean that you can stop training minor spirit and still have a high CS with 110, neither that you can stop training minor elemental and see a high CS with 409 or 415. If you want to be good with the 100s, you will have to train for them much as you did before. The big difference is that you will now find that you don't have to train harder than everyone else to achieve the same benefit. You are finally able to choose to be good with something other than the 700s, or in addition, where you would have always been sub-par prior to this change.

>...and diminishes the professional advantage other classes had over us.

Since when is being deficient a selling point? Do the players of sorcerers want to have to work harder than everyone else to be as good? Do they want to have less options because there are more expectations of them if they want to have the same chances of success? Somehow, I think that would be a pretty hard sell.

>Clerics should be the masters of spiritual attacks; wizards should be the masters of elemental attacks; sorcerers should find something distinct in the sorcery circle that makes us unique.

Clerics and empaths both share the major and minor spirit circles already, so this is a fairly moot arguement. Ultimately, the flaw in this logic is that wizards have two circles that are unique to them and clerics and empaths split the major spirit circle between themselves, making it fairly proprietary. Sorcerers have a new way to be unique now; they are now able to cast from two disparate circles with full proficiency, given that they train in them as necessary. If the only place for you to find something "unique" is in a single circle, you're always going to fall behind the other professions as they have more places to look.

>This change is a waste of effort...

While there certainly was effort involved in researching, presenting, debating and, ultimately, adopting this change, I think it was far from an arduous task. There are a great many things we do that require concentrated effort, this was a small thing by comparison, but one we felt was important going forward.

>...SGM Warden would have shot it down.

When it all comes down, this game is what we make of it. The direction of any one profession is not a singular thing, but a collaborative effort between those currently working in Dev, those who came before us and, largely, those who take the time to voice their opinions. When someone new comes aboard, they bring their vision with them, whatever it may be. How much of it comes to pass can be dependent upon a great many factors, but everything they suggest, design and create will come from that vision, and so it becomes a part of the game.

Might Warden have shot this down? Possibly so, particularly if the argument for doing it was not persuasive enough, but would he have done so out of hand? I don't think anything would have ever gotten done if he just shot down every small change that came his way. This change was not big, but it was desired. Its immediate impact may be relatively small, but the implications are huge. The doors this opens are not insubstantial and I, for one, look forward to seeing where they lead.

GM Tiqal.

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"
*

[Swami71]

Serious? Someone complained about getting more CS?

[Ryvicke]

Hilariously unbelievable.

Respect to Tiqal.

[Drew]

You guys really can whine about anything.

[Sean of the Thread]

>720 Drew

[zhelas]

So...Tarakan is a functional retard. He is upset about the CS changes for sorcerers, proving that yes, sorcs will bitch about anything.
----

This!


You guys really can whine about anything
We probably can. But unfortunately we have whiners like Tarakan.

I thought about putting Tarakan's rants on the boards here so you can see the insanity... but why should he get more publicity than what Fallen posted.

Peace
Zhelas

--------------------------------------
(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

[TheWitch]

Unbelievable.

:tool:

Edited to add:

I had to go lurk on the officials to see that DNs entire rant.

"Pure" sorcery? LOL.

:tool: :tool: :tool:

[Cephalopod]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg

[Makkah]

http://respecta.net/uploads/posts/2009-02/thumbs/1233692509_methodman2.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://images.travelpod.com/users/microfingers/1.1213391580.1-tical.jpg

http://popup.lala.com/popup/432627052153443832

[Some Rogue]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/Pic1222.jpg

Oh, I thought this was post a random picture thread.

[crb]

Tarakan makes me look like pollyanna, and that is quite a feat.

Who remembers about 5 years ago when he went on that rant about newcomers to OTF using High Lord titles, something he felt they didn't deserve.

[caelric]

Should post Tarrakans rant for anyone who doesn't read the officials. It's rather funny, in a pitiful sort of way.

[Kitsun]

Tarakan makes me look like pollyanna, and that is quite a feat.

Who remembers about 5 years ago when he went on that rant about newcomers to OTF using High Lord titles, something he felt they didn't deserve.

I remember that thread! He wanted to randomize the drop point entry into OTF, auto-kill familiars, limit the ET bonus you could carry in, cripple the user of haste, among other goodies. He pretty much wanted to gut anyone that wasn't him.

[m444w]

GM Tiqal just announced an "improvement" for us hybrids such that ranks of MnE and MnS spells will now contribute more toward the other's CS for us. It's amazing how many fundamental changes to game balance and design are flowing from the development team since SGM Warden retired.

Did sorcerers really need or ask for this change?! All it did for me was make my MnS and MnE CS much higher than my SORC CS, making me feel even less happy with my choice to diversify in the craft. It also creates yet another reason for all sorcerers to grossly overtrain in the SORC circle, further diluting the last decade's struggles to create spiritualist versus elementalist specialists with real unique powers apart from the classic tripling SORC max model.

And how does this help with game balance and hunting?! I can't wait to see how the arms race of nerfing will follow these changes, just like in the old days when the development team followed Greentide's successes with their heavy-handed sorcery penalties to avoid our powerhunting. And if so, what do we really gain in the long run?

Face it, our day in the sun is long gone as the best profession for pure hunting success.

This game needs leadership that has a consistent message, clear time-bounded goals, and the courage to politely deny player requests for change when it disrupts the larger need for balance. While improvements to sorcery are long over-due, this particular change is not helpful. At the very least, the concept should have been fleshed out to cap the benefits of the SORC circle itself, and to include ranks of mana control in each sphere to reap the proposed new benefits.

But as long as Warden's corpse has now been trampled upon, let's finally get down to brass tacks and talk about 750. It's time to finally get major demons roaming the world that will rip the spirit out of anything that moves, turn it into unlimited mana for the sorcerer, and grind bones into gold for our spending pleasure. Heck, why not? There's only like 300 real players left anyway. Might as well let us eat cake before the plug is pulled.

Tarakan

[Kitsun]

Didn't the hybrid CS change just make sorcerers resemble all the other pures in terms of how it is calculated from training in 3 different circles? If the issue is that sorcerers are totally focused on the Sorcerer list, shouldn't better spells be slotted for the other circles that require dedicated training to make it more enticing to train in those instead?

[Drew]

Who remembers about 5 years ago when he went on that rant about newcomers to OTF using High Lord titles, something he felt they didn't deserve.

Hah! That was a hilarious thread. Wish someone had saved that one, it should be on krakiipedia.

[Drew]

Didn't the hybrid CS change just make sorcerers resemble all the other pures in terms of how it is calculated from training in 3 different circles? If the issue is that sorcerers are totally focused on the Sorcerer list, shouldn't better spells be slotted for the other circles that require dedicated training to make it more enticing to train in those instead?

Don't spend to much time trying to figure out what his actual complaint is. It appears to be "I have ten free minutes and don't like change."

[Morph]

I mean it really is a worthless change. I'm not going to complain about it because it doesn't hurt anything, but I'm also not excited about it. There is no CS spell in MnE or MnS that is really worth hunting with. If Tarakan's point is that there are more important things that the development staff could have been looking into, then I agree with him.

[Drew]

I believe both 409 and 415 do fire damage only which can be useful for a number of critters.

[Fallen]

I disagree, Morph. I actually worked 118 in CS form in my hunt quite a bit. I also tend to use 409/415 quite a bit as well. With 413 moving up, you have a secondary TD dropper to play with too. It is a pity that 135 sucks, as that spell is likely now usable as well. Was it a massive change? No. Did it make the use of the 100's and 400's as a sorcerer not nearing/at 3x Spell Research far more viable? Definitely.

Edited to show:



413 · Elemental Saturation

[ELEMSAT]
Duration: 10 seconds per level

Type: Attack

This spell causes the target to suffer a -25 penalty to all warding checks.

This spell is subject to a warding check at normal modifications.

[Fallen]

I believe both 409 and 415 do fire damage only which can be useful for a number of critters.

They will do what damage you are attuned to in terms of elements. Otherwise, you can set it to ATTUNE Random, or you will receive a random element without attunement.

[Morph]

Eh I mean they aren't bad spells, but they just aren't worth using over your sorcerer spells, unless you just feel like messing around. Last year I made a build with like a 570ish minor elemental CS and hunted the temple with 409 and 415, and it was fun. And now you could probably get into the 590s with mne CS which would be cool to look at, but really it still won't be as efficient as just using your Sorc spells.


http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=42917

[Fallen]

Eh I mean they aren't bad spells, but they just aren't worth using over your sorcerer spells, unless you just feel like messing around. Last year I made a build with like a 570ish minor elemental CS and hunted the temple with 409 and 415, and it was fun. And now you could probably get into the 590s with mne CS which would be cool to look at, but really it still won't be as efficient as just using your Sorc spells.

I think CS-based Web is an excellent spell for dealing with Griffins, especially when group hunting. You could use Pain Infliction, but I find Web to be more reliable. Remember too that Area web uses a hidden CS check for its activation. 409/415 have a higher percent chance to crit kill than any of our spells save perhaps Implosion, and that wastes the loot. I use them on Janissaries. I'm not going to argue that it isn't EXTREMELY situational, but I will say that having more tools in one's repetoire is always nice.

[Murkshev]

So if a sorcerer is attuned to an element, if they use 409 or 415 in wand from, would the spell still flare? Like if one was attuned to fire and wanted to hunt to the Bowels and have 415 as a back up in wand form?

[Fallen]

So if a sorcerer is attuned to an element, if they use 409 or 415 in wand from, would the spell still flare? Like if one was attuned to fire and wanted to hunt to the Bowels and have 415 as a back up in wand form?

409 E-blast is essentially the old Mana Disrupt. You can go nuts and not worry about the Elemental effects. As for wands, i don't know if 415 would go off your attunement or be random.

[Celephais]

So if a sorcerer is attuned to an element, if they use 409 or 415 in wand from, would the spell still flare? Like if one was attuned to fire and wanted to hunt to the Bowels and have 415 as a back up in wand form?
You can always "attune random" even after you've attuned to fire (just you'll only ever be able to go back to fire again). So you wouldn't need to use a wand to go back to random flares. Of course wand or not, random chance at a fire flare would be bad news anyway.

Or... were you looking to set off the pockets of gas?

[Murkshev]

Seems I have to spend some time with random attunement. As for setting of the gas, that would be just fine if I got in over my head and wanted to die in a flash..........

[crb]

Don't forget in the elemental lore review 409 and 415 are getting seriously pimped out with multiple target functionality.

[zhelas]

GM Tiqal:

Thank you for the response.

I don't know if you've been around the block as long as I have, but I think it's fair to state that communication between sorcerers and the development team has been difficult and inconsistent over the years. If a discussion or goal or paradigm is stated here, it tends to remain a bone of contention for years if left unfulfilled or changed by a new regime. Despite the vocal few who remain board posters now, few were actually here to passionately debate the old ways since the AOLers refused to assimilate after 1996, or to fight the proposed drastic changes which neutered our power, or educate the various gurus on all that was promised. Without this personal history and "skin in the game", it's easy to embrace anything that seemingly improves a perceived design flaw regardless of the clear inconsistency it presents with past paradigm. I seem to recall the majority of those who remained at the time, similarly lauding GM Nilven's original spell designs. Most of them have subsequently left rather than continue a seemingly futile debate to have their functionality and practicality improved.

If your thesis that I am too anachronistic in my expectations about the Craft is fair, then how about someone from development take the time to post a lucid essay on the core essence of sorcery...what spells define it and help it realize this niche, what remains to be done to flesh this out, and what are the priorities to evolve it closer to that reality. How is a player supposed to know that the promises of guru A do not carry over to guru B, or that there is no intention to pick up the work where it left off? If we are now at a moment of possibilities with an eager new team, is everything back on the drawing board for discussion?

If so, I would like all of GM Nilven's spell requirements to be removed from the core utilization of these spells. Ingredients are fine for guild tricks and bonuses for young sorcerers, but a doubly capped sorcerer should not have to rely on a garbage bag full of debris just to cast our most powerful spells. And let's overturn the poor decision to keep 725 a role-playing spell with more negative aspects than good ones. And let's get 750 out for Koar's sake! And let's get rid of the ridiculous guild skills as they currently exist and implement skills more aligned with our true nature and professional spells. These are the changes and priorities that a new guru should be working on, not minor patches that compromise the fundamental separation of the magical spheres!

Tarakan
.

[BigWorm]

Get over the past and just put your suggestions (more like demands in this case...) out there. While that last paragraph is still pretty poorly put, if he had just posted that, he would have a lot better chance of being taking seriously.

[zhelas]

His posts normally just make my eyes bleed. Also if it is true that he has played for that long of a period of time. It doesn't necessarily show his intellect.

Peace

[ruineye]

I pay plenty of attention to the boards, but unlike some, I don't try to win arguments by shouting over the opposition, or by deriding the validity of an opinion with a quick sound-bite snipe or a long-winded condescending pontification. I was educated in the Ivy League, not by Jerry Springer and Oprah.

It's frankly amazing to me that some sorcerers seem so happy that they can now cast MnE and MnS spells with higher CS because of this change. As Virilneus pointed out, this benefits me the most, as I'm the only sorcerer with 100+ ranks in each spell circle. If anything, I should be the happiest camper, skipping and tossing rose petals around with wanton abandonment. The fact that I do not perceive it as beneficial, especially with my stats, history, longevity in the game, and obvious practical field experience actually using sorcery for hunting instead of "role-playing" to a bored audiences in town should make people take pause! Unlike some, I don't just sit back and drink the cool-aid when someone expects me to, and certainly not without ample discussion about a proposed change. And if the several loud, short-term thinking sycophants hadn't paraded GM Nilven around like some savior and drowned out my opposition to all his component nonsense, we wouldn't need to be fixing those disappointments now.

The new development team needs to work on how they spin changes so that everything seems to fit in a clear and balanced system that has been thoroughly discussed and tested. This is admittedly difficult in a game that constantly evolves without a stable or static equilibrium, but communication and an understanding of client expectations are key.

Tarakan
.

[caelric]

My response to that, although I'm not sure why I bothered since it is 1. obvious he is clueless, and 2. probably going to get pulled form the officials.




a long-winded condescending pontification


Really? Could of fooled me. As to your education, I fail to see how that is important here, but if you would like to compare lengths, mine is pretty impressive, as well.

On a serious note, it is perhaps a telling factor that you are the sole dissenting voice in this matter. True, on occasion, the sole dissenter is correct, but generally not.

Regardless, it does speak volumes that you continue to bring out your longevity, education, and overall experience, and at the same time, denigrate other posters, by putting the airquotes around role-playing, and commenting about drinking the kool-aid. That is called attacking/discrediting the source, rather than addressing the argument, and is almost invariably used when the argument you support is weak, or non existent. Of course, I am doing the exact same thing here, but I believe it needs to be mentioned in the course of this.

If I were another certain poster on these boards, I would add you to my ignore list, and mention this in my .sig, but I will not do so, and instead just mention that in this issue, you are a minority of one, and in the wrong, at that.

[Fallen]

I stand by my statement that Tarakan is functionally retarded. There was a problem with the way a sorcerer's Minor circle CS was calculated. It was basically a bug that some GM's convinced themselves was a "feature". Tiqal pushed hard, and was able to convince them to fix it.

Step two: ???

Step Three: Tarakan bitching.

Tiqal is still just LEARNING how to code for the game, and he gets something through that Sorcerers have been trying to get fixed for years. If Tarakan has been around that long, he should DAMN well have known about the Hybrid penalty. I can understand he doesn't like the direction our high level spells have taken (components, etc), and that's fine. It doesn't make this change any less valid, beneficial, or worthy. Give the guy a chance to actually code his own spell for Christ's sake before jumping down his throat.

Finally, in my opinion Tarakan has never done anything in this game other than make sorcerers, and by extension, sorcery look bad. He even belittles roleplaying the profession in his post. He spends 99% of his time sitting outside of OTF or hunting. I don't think I have ever seen him attempt to do anything productive for the craft since i've been playing. But, oh yeah, he did break fame once!

[Drew]

And people wonder why GMs get burnt out.

[Kitsun]

I can't believe he actually wants a lengthy philosphical document on sorcery development.

[Fallen]

I can't believe he actually wants a lengthy philosphical document on sorcery development.

I don't think that request is too out of the ordinary, just way premature. People like to get the sense of what a new GM thinks of the profession. Nilven gave one, Strathspey gave one, and I am sure once Tiqal has his training wheels off he will give one too. This isn't unique to sorcery. Hell, Naos had to add documentation to the game lore in order to get wizards to mesh with his views of them, and their development. Oscuro just recently gave one (more or less) on rogue development. He most certainly did for Empaths/Clerics, with Estild adding his part.

Bards, Rangers, and Paladins have phantom GMs. Coase is a doer, not a poster, so Warriors don't really have a design theme.

[ElvenFury]

He can't even spell Kool-aid right. Harvard should give him his money back.

[TheWitch]

http://www.critical-errors.com/HGW/whiner.gif

[Drew]

Bards, Rangers, and Paladins have phantom GMs.

The problem is I believe Mestys was the Paladin and Ranger GM before he got promoted and no one has replaced him.

EDIT: I looked it up, apparently Lusus is the guy for bards paladins and rangers but I don't recall him ever once posting in the ranger folder.

[Fallen]

Agreed. It is sad when a profession does not have a passionate Guru to further it's development.

[Ceyrin]

Just an FYI, 409 doesn't do any sort of elemental damage, regardless of attunement or lack there of.

[audioserf]

Yeah 409 to me seems like pre-nerf MD...

[Warriorbird]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/Pic1222.jpg

Oh, I thought this was post a random picture thread.

Tical references only. So not random.

http://www.tical.com/

http://rapnyelv.freeblog.hu/files/method%20man%20dvd%20cover%20art.jpg

[justincredible]

I would have much rather see time spent on issues that have been brought up by the player base on a consistent basis for the last 5-10 YEARS than some glorified bug fix. Sorcerers as it stand know have several broken spells (713, 716, 717, 725, 730, 750?) no class defining spell (md doesn't count, maybe 712) our guild is a joke and don't even get me started on maneuvers...


I can maybe remember one time that the minor circle CS issue has been raised since I started playing a sorcerer seriously (growing pains) while these other issues have been beaten to death, re-animated, had their limbs blown off and gotten beaten to undeath with those.

Simu, imho, has a history of rolling out "improvements" in a very stingy manner. A bug fix turns into an excuse to not touch a profession for years. I am really scared of the simu attitude "we really wanted to fix disease but look at your new shiny minor spirit CS" or "we just rolled out something for sorcerers now we have to do something for every other class before we can continue to COMPLETE the sorcerer class." So I can kinda relate to Mr. Crazy Pants over there who is all up in arms about a fix that I didn't want or don't really care about.

The feeling that sorcerer PLAYER concerns have been ignored since the good ole days of AOL is pretty wide spread in the sorcerer community. We provide all kinds of feedback, ideas, numbers, research, testing...for naught. Simu just kinda does it's own thing and expects us to deal with it.

Staying on topic:
http://hulkhatetimetravel.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/624px-methodman.jpg

[Drew]

no class defining spell (md doesn't count, maybe 712)]




WTF are you smoking?

Implosion? Reanimation? FREAKING 740??? These aren't class defining?


I'm going to start complaining that rangers don't class defining spells if that is the case.

[Fallen]

Implosion is to Sorcerers as Meteor Swarm is to Wizards. I think people just see Regeneration, Miracle, etc and are blinded by the new shiny's towards the good stuff they already have. It may also not seem like we have class defining spells as 725, and 730 are in some ways lackluster. IMO there is little wrong with 740, but I don't think sorcerers are best known for their ability to X-realms transport for 60ishk.

I've always been a wait and see kind of guy. I honestly believed Strathspey was going to deliver on some of the things he discussed, but his "waiting on the Elemental lore review" was a real cop-out in my book. Once that was delayed past RSN status, another plan should have been put into affect. Instead, we have Tiqal. I like what he did on the boards, but he isn't going to be producing miracles right off the bat. I've faith he will be a good GM, but I had faith in Strath too. I just miss playing, and hope at some point some GM will deliver.

[caelric]

714 is also a class defining spell, in my opinion, both for personal use, and as a service for others.

As a sorcerer for my main, I would definitely not say we don't have class defining spells, it's just that the ones we do have are limited in utility, and there are some big gaps in our spell base. Plus, we don't have a major realm, only two minor sluts of realms, that everybody else either has, or every other scroll that is found seems like a sorcerer starter kit scrolls, with 100's, 400's, and a smattering of 700's on it.

Ah well, I am still having fun with my THW sorcerer.

[Fallen]

714 is the best utility spell in the game. It in large part defines my character, but at the same time, I don't think it defines the profession because a great many sorcerers never fuck with it. It is complicated, and hard to use early on. Pretty much all sorcerers use Implosion, which is why I consider it to be more defining.

I actually tried a THW sorcerer and got bored with it. Of all the pure classes, we are the least suited towards swinging. That doesn't mean we can't do it, it just seems like a bit of a waste. If you use scroll infusion heavily you can become competitive with the other pures. Just hard to do early on IMO.

[caelric]

The way my THW sorc is competitive as a swinger is because sorcs have the second lowest cost to learn air lore. He learned 48 ranks of air lore to get that 1 sec RT reduction (ranks count as half because haste is from a major circle other than his own, so a wizard needs 24 ranks, everyone else needs 48 ranks). I think he had the required ranks by around 30th level. Anyways, taht allows him to swing his THW with a 2 sec RT. Not quite warmage territory, but not bad, either.

Otherwise yes, you are correct, sorcs are the least suited towards swinging of all the pures. It's worked so far, at 59th level, lets see how it continues to work.

[Fallen]

The way my THW sorc is competitive as a swinger is because sorcs have the second lowest cost to learn air lore. He learned 48 ranks of air lore to get that 1 sec RT reduction (ranks count as half because haste is from a major circle other than his own, so a wizard needs 24 ranks, everyone else needs 48 ranks). I think he had the required ranks by around 30th level. Anyways, taht allows him to swing his THW with a 2 sec RT. Not quite warmage territory, but not bad, either.

Otherwise yes, you are correct, sorcs are the least suited towards swinging of all the pures. It's worked so far, at 59th level, lets see how it continues to work.

Do you use scrolls or haste imbeds? What is your scroll-based spell up looking like? 307, 509, 606, 211, 215? I imagine keeping 215 up every hunt is difficult.

[caelric]

haste imbeds.

Scrolls are 202, 211(pure potions), 507, 1712 every hunt. 509, 503 and 911 from imbeds if necessary, or freiendly casters if available.

Sometimes 215 and 307, but only when absolutely necessary, as those are in shorter supply

[justincredible]

I'd pretty much agree with Fallen on this one. 720 is great, unreliable and poverty inspiring but great. It is the reason why I rolled up a sorcerer 13ish years ago but class defining to me is a little more than that.

-coming into it's own around 70.

-Highly influenced by class specific skills (sorcerer ranks, mana controls, LORES)

-Unique

-The epitome of the class' current abilities. Works in synergy with existing class abilities/spells (warrior=weapon bonding, paladin=sanctify, clerics=god crap, empaths=healing, rogues=everything, rangers=companions, wizards=elements/generic magic, monks=rsn....)

Maybe my dissatisfaction about the sorcerer class has to do with the ideas I hold in my head about the class. I came in when sorcerers were the kings of blowing stuff up. You know, blood, guts and nightmares. Now it seems our strength lies in utility ability (which was the reason I rolled up a wizard who is and has been a much more efficient hunter than my sorcerer 10-60, grrrrrrrrrr)

It just seems this move fits into the pattern of simu ignoring what the sorcerer player base wants while shoving some "improvement" down our throats and then wondering why we aren't overcome with gratitude.

It isn't the end of the world and hopefully it's a step in the right direction. Until then I'll happily enjoy playing my real master of the cs spell....my god damned bard!!!!! (you guys have no idea how much this pisses me off btw)