Oscuro on the Stealth System

[Fallen]

An interesting series of discussions has been taking place on the Official boards, under the rogue folder discussing rogues, and the stealth system in general. There is a side-conversation taking place in the "parry mastery" thread as well which involves Oscuro, and I suggest any hardcore rogues take the time to follow that thread too. Both conversations are taking place in the Developer's Corner - Rogue folder.
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I really don't see the stealth system as an issue with Rogues. The two major Rogue gripes I hear are that offensive CMANs are underpowered/undesirable and that light armor needs to be better for reasons other than casting and/or needs defense vs spells. The stealth system is disjoint from these complaints.

Grendeg, you keep preaching to completely redesign the stealth system, but I can't recall seeing a compelling case for it. What problems do you (or anyone) see with the current stealth system that you feel need to be addressed? Can these problems not be dealt with while working with what we have? If not, how does your proposed new stealth system deal with these issues while not creating others?

Rewriting an entire, deeply embedded game system like stealth would be a massive change (easily hundreds of man-hours), and wouldn't be done unless it were overwhelmingly compelling reasons to do so. I have lots of ideas for improving Rogue gameplay but most of these are to improve current CMANs or add new ones, thus working within our current system and, because of this, are far more likely to see the light of Elanthia. However, if such a stealth redesign is, in fact, better for the game, I'd like to hear it.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


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>>First major fix that would make me happier with stealth personally would be fixing how groups and group spells work with it.

Oh, right, that. Yeah, that's something on the list, and it's being worked on, but it's a slow going kind of thing. There are thousands of lines of code spread throughout many systems that need to be updated for this to take effect. It will be done, but it's not exactly around the corner. Not like other things I'm working on. ;)

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

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>>Light armor needs to be better for reasons other than casting? Who's complaining about casting in light armor? And you mean that lighter armor needs more defense against spells, right?

There have been several complaints that the main benefit for wearing light armor is that it allows you to cast. However, the general opinion is Rogues shouldn't have to cast. So, people are either forsaking their ideal view of Rogues by casting in light armor or by wearing plate armor. I find this to be a difficult dilemma and have fewer solutions for this than ideas for the CMAN system.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


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NOTE: This is Greminty's post, which Oscuro then comments on saying his opinion is in lock-step.



>Unfortunately this type of stealth does not translate well to computer roleplaying games. The reason is simple: CRPGs are typically designed to emphasize combat, whereas stealth is usually intended to avoid combat until it can be initiated on favorable terms.

As you say, this is indeed THE problem with stealth-combat. However, it is in fact, unresolvable in any practical context. Your thematic rogue will never find himself in a position where he has to kill X number of things in a short time period*. Thus any attempt to create stealth mechanics that feel real, yet still accommodate "hunting", is going to fall short. Stealth-combat is inherently flawed; there's no way to force it to coexist with all the other classes without giving up either practicality or realism. The only thing you can do is attempt to create an alternate experience-gain system (like the AdvG?) where you gain experience from doing stealthy tasks without having to kill lots of things. This is what you should argue for, rather than trying to re-vamp stealth-combat.

>1a) If a character leaves hiding (voluntarily or involuntarily), they should not be able to slip back into hiding trivially, having been exposed. This includes not being able to run one room over and sneak back in.

And this is the big problem with your system. If hiding is non-trivial (as it needs to be to meet your thematic standards), then hunting more than one creature at a time is going to be cumbersome. Again, there's no way to rectify stealth mechanics with the need to kill many creatures to advance.

On another note, 2b-2e can all be implemented as CMANs without completely redoing stealth (some already are, as you said). As can 4a/b. 3a/b could also be pretty trivially implemented without a stealth overhaul. I think both of these are warranted, personally, and would gladly take them in the context of other improvements to the non-spelled, light-armored rogue (such as a haste-like CMAN as I mentioned before). Regardless, I fail to see any need to "overhaul" hiding in any way. But a couple of these changes/additions would be nice to look at on their own.

- Greminty

* Well, he might, but I'd argue then he's being more like a thematic ninja, rather than a rogue.





Greminty quite eloquently said what I was thinking with regard to the stealth system revamp proposal. I think the best thing we can do is to simply improve upon the current system by having more CMANs or improving current CMANs.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


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>>Oscuro, you were the one to request clarification from me specifically, down to addressing me by name. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect more of a response than one line stating you agree with someone else -- particularly when I already expressed the opinion that the "someone else" had missed the entire point. Speak for yourself, instead. If you think there's a problem in my reasoning, then state it openly and I'll clarify.

I specifically addressed you because you're the one who continuously brings up the idea of how a completely new stealth system would be the panacea for Rogue troubles. I was curious how this could possibly be the case.

You argue that Greminty (and perhaps myself) were predisposed to disagree and so his (our) opinions weren't valid. However, you yourself claim that your proposal is such an improvement over the currently system that you "honestly don't see how people could not think so," which tells me that if anyone is predisposed to an opinion, it's yourself.

Greminty pointed out the major flaws in your proposal in that it is simply impossible to draw an exact parallel between a literature scenario and an MMO combat system. Also, you seem to imply that there's something inherently wrong with the way that MMOs traditionally handle stealth, which I disagree with considering that Rogue type classes are typically quite popular in those games as well. While it may not be the most RP appropriate, that isn't always what's important when it comes down to actual gameplay - feasibility, fun and balance are all more important.

You also claim that under the current system "rogues are slow," and that your system addresses that. However, your system essentially forces a Rogue to only engage one opponent and even potentially has to stalk them from room to room and can't even re-enter stealth vs their opponent. This seems far slower than the current system, if not directly in RT, but in setting yourself up for the kill.

Additionally, there's the complaint that "rogues are fragile, particularly in light armor," and that your system addresses that. However, your system now makes Rogues apparently more susceptible to attacks when not hidden and makes them come under attack more easily from spells while hidden and their stealth level is decreased by wearing defensive spells. It certainly seems like Rogues are far more fragile in this scenario.

You do have some good ideas. Particularly, I like the aspect of staying in hiding for more of combat, which essentially increases Rogue defense. I also like the ideas of more "dirty tricks" from hiding. But these are all ideas that can simply be included in the extant system.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


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>>First, I want to address the word "redesign."

Not that it really matters, but redesign, to me, means throw away everything we currently have and start anew. This is not an option. Releasing a half-dozen new CMs and making a couple minor tweaks to the HIDEing formula or something is certainly possible and are things that I've been working on in terms of proposing them to the dev team, so I suppose that you could say that I'm working on a "stealth redesign," but really I'd call it a "Rogue stealth CM update," especially since most of my proposed changes would only be affecting Rogues.

>>It could cut back on crit randomization. It could impose an extra status effect beyond the normal weapon damage. Tell me, is a "slow" ambush worth being able to take down a grizzled bounty critter with one single devastating strike? How far could you uphunt if you were willing to take significant time on each critter to stalk it and get the best shot?

First, crit randomization is here to stay. It is an integral part of GS4, taking us further away from the realm of GS3 where we were guaranteed that "if I hit, it died, but if I missed I died." We want Rogues to be able to land hits almost always so they can disable their opponents with their attacks, but we do not want guaranteed kills with each strike. That is simply too strong and destroys an enormous element of danger - and thus fun. An auto-kill ability is especially not going to be given for things like grizzled creatures because of the challenge they're meant to present.

>>Being able to ambush two critters at once, kicking a dirt cloud into the face of one critter (and imposing RT) while performing a normal ambush on a second in the room?

This, I think, is far more feasible.

>>It could impose an extra status effect beyond the normal weapon damage.

This is an idea that I'd like to explore more.

>>Set a concealed trap so that the critter triggers it as soon as they attempt to leave the room.

I think this snare idea may be more flavor appropriate for Rangers.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

[waywardgs]

What I want to know is why armor evasion doesn't have any effect for rogues wearing robes.

[Some Rogue]

Sure, let's just release more cmans. Rogues are just overflowing with points to spend in CM.

[Fallen]

Sure, let's just release more cmans. Rogues are just overflowing with points to spend in CM.

The good news in this regard is that CM point costs for offensive CMANs are going to be reviewed, freeing up points for alternatives. I believe the CMAN point review only extends to squares, though, and only for offensive ones.

[StrayRogue]

The annoying thing is that most CMANs I take (and I feel are needed) are defense based ones. I have...WSPEC. The rest are all stuff like disarm, toughness, smastery etc.

Oh, and Gremnity is a douchebag. He's like the sorcerer of the rogue boards.

[Fallen]

The annoying thing is that most CMANs I take (and I feel are needed) are defense based ones. I have...WSPEC. The rest are all stuff like disarm, toughness, smastery etc.

Oh, and Gremnity is a douchebag. He's like the sorcerer of the rogue boards.

I asked specifically about improvements to SM, and he said more or less no dice. I too feel rogues should have a bit more oomph in the passive/defensive CMAN field.

[StrayRogue]

SM really needs to be passive (again). I'll probably pick up Divert. We really need improvements to the stamina costs and effectiveness (ie, success margins and rt) of our guild skills. Stunman is useless beyond words, I haven't swept a critter since GS3, and subdue is only viable against other players (for teh lolz). LFM is the only viable guild skills these days.

We also really, really, really need a skill that breaks stuns or RT like every other god-damn physical class.

I remember proposing CM Feign Death (usable during stunned/rt, modified by INF, doesn't work on undead, drops you into offensive and prone, but gives you the chance of being left alone by critters) years ago during the CM development. Stealth said he liked the idea but not heard of it since.

[Fallen]

I would bring it back up again. Oscuro is always willing to implement well throught out ideas.

[StrayRogue]

Trial accounts can't post :(

[Fallen]

Post it here, and I will throw it up in your name.

[StrayRogue]

I'll see if I can dig it out. Those were old old notes.

[StrayRogue]

Skill Name: Feign Death
Mnemonic: fdeath
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: All remaining stamina points, 35 base
Other Requirements: None
Available to: Rogue Only
Prerequisites: None
Description: A cunning rogue can fool attackers into thinking that they have slain him prematurely, allowing him to escape lethal finishing blows.

If the Rogue is in a position where he is going to die, he can activate feign death with the mnemonic fdeath. He will appear to fall down dead. He can use this ability as a reaction if he is still healthy and the next blow will appear to kill him, or he can activate it when stunned/bleeding/bound and he will appear to fall down dead, as if from blood loss.

The margin for success will be based on the normal CM mechanics, modified by the Rogue’s INF bonus, against all creatures in the room. It can also work on players. Monsters entering the room will have to succeed on a perception check to reveal that the Rogue is only faking. Undead are immune to this skill.

Regardless of success, the Rogue will be knocked prone and placed into stance offensive but will not be dead. He will only appear as so. When the critter or whoever attacked him moves on he can stand up and limp home ready to fight another day.

[Fallen]

>>Exactly Ondreian, no ability should be designed around a capped players usage, as it penalizes the >100 crowd who needs to use it far more.

I think you mean <100, but no, the skill cost is not designed around capped players, and I don't see how people who are not capped need it more, when many players argue that speed is absolutely essential at cap, but is not really that important earlier. Even though it isn't designed only for capped players, I think it would be perfectly legitimate to design maneuvers with capped players in mind, simply because there should be more interesting things at and beyond the level cap, as many a player has requested. So I wouldn't be opposed to designing CMs with high prerequisites (which I have done for both Rogues and Monks) with the intention that they'd be used almost exclusively by capped players.

>>Any thoughts on the possiblity of parry OR evade mastery, but not both boss?

My thoughts are against this proposal. Offering a choice of parry mastery over evade mastery does little beyond giving Rogues in plate even more power. They would forgo the 1% per rank increase of Evade Mastery for the 5% per rank increase of Parry Mastery (which essentially becomes 10% per rank with TWC), giving even more defense to a build that we're trying to discourage. I am far more interested in empowering defense for Rogues in light armor and most likely through indirect methods like making new stealth abilities more useful for them and easier for them to remain hidden, thus, away from creatures' attacks.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

.

[Fallen]

Skill Name: Feign Death
Mnemonic: fdeath
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: All remaining stamina points, 35 base
Other Requirements: None
Available to: Rogue Only
Prerequisites: None
Description: A cunning rogue can fool attackers into thinking that they have slain him prematurely, allowing him to escape lethal finishing blows.

If the Rogue is in a position where he is going to die, he can activate feign death with the mnemonic fdeath. He will appear to fall down dead. He can use this ability as a reaction if he is still healthy and the next blow will appear to kill him, or he can activate it when stunned/bleeding/bound and he will appear to fall down dead, as if from blood loss.

The margin for success will be based on the normal CM mechanics, modified by the Rogue’s INF bonus, against all creatures in the room. It can also work on players. Monsters entering the room will have to succeed on a perception check to reveal that the Rogue is only faking. Undead are immune to this skill.

Regardless of success, the Rogue will be knocked prone and placed into stance offensive but will not be dead. He will only appear as so. When the critter or whoever attacked him moves on he can stand up and limp home ready to fight another day.

X-posted, Stray.

[StrayRogue]

Thanks!

[Asha]

So it's like a guaranteed way for rogues to have a chance at evading a fatal blow, instead of a chance at a chance of the evasion a wizard would get?

Also, what happened to rogues hiding and stalking in plate with no apparent penalty? I always thought that was hilarious.

[StrayRogue]

Um they get penalties for being in plate, just less penalties for being in light armor (overall).

And no it's not guaranteed. CM rolls, unlike wardings, can fail catastrophically, regardless of level difference or skill.

I didn't mention pures. You did. I said physical classes. And I'd be an advocate for wizards getting an "oh-shit" get out of jail free card ability, though 540 sort of reflects that already. Empaths have one.

[Fallen]

So it's like a guaranteed way for rogues to have a chance at evading a fatal blow, instead of a chance at a chance of the evasion a wizard would get?

Also, what happened to rogues hiding and stalking in plate with no apparent penalty? I always thought that was hilarious.

In my mind, the only way this maneuver would work is if the rogue actually lost all of the spells he was wearing. If the spells didn't fall, it wouldn't have a chance of fooling any sentient creature. So basically, you're talking about the end of a hunt either way for a square. It just means they don't die.

I think plate comes with some hiding penalties, but nothing that can't be mitigated with high levels of S&H. Right now, I would still go plate over light armors, but the wind isn't blowing that way for too much longer. If I were a high level rogue, I would definitely be keeping my eye out for a nice set of brig, even if I did prefer plate.

[StrayRogue]

Rogues are always going to get hit. That is the problem. As a square who has to go into offensive it is inevitable. That's why rogues wear plate. At cap most archers don't even bother hiding. It just makes them way too slow.

[Asha]

Um they get penalties for being in plate, just less penalties for being in light armor (overall).
Yeah thought so.


And no it's not guaranteed. CM rolls, unlike wardings, can fail catastrophically, regardless of level difference or skill.

I didn't mention pures. You did. I said physical classes. And I'd be an advocate for wizards getting an "oh-shit" get out of jail free card ability, though 540 sort of reflects that already. Empaths have one.
Didn't really say it was guaranteed. I said it was a guaranteed chance.
More chance of avoiding a killing blow than say, a wizard simply casting their spell before hunting would?
Physical classes, pures.. it's the same game.
I'm not against anything towards rogues and infact would like them to be completely overpowered and granted the ability to implode or healall since I'm not interested in playing anything else but a capped rogue.

[Fallen]

>>Perhaps something like.. Rangers get spike pits, deadlog falls and snares hanging from trees (more natural-ish) and rogues get concealed jaw traps, smoke bomb and poison scarab(darts-type) hurling traps (all traps based on LM stuffs)?.

I definitely like the jaw trap idea, which I think could be a relatively simple update. I don't know about the rest. Disarming a scarab renders it useless as a trap. Needles seem less useful and less plausible for an enemy to step on, and smoke bombs would have to be a new box trap for it to be recoverable via LM.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

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[Asha]

Awesome! Keep at him.

[kookiegod]

I'm really trying to get parry mastery for rogues but he isn't going for it. Esp. with the idea of having one or the other and not both.

I really don't see his point. If your wearing plate, your're mostly forgoing casting offensive spells and putting all your efforts into defense.

Meanwhile warrriors can have all 3, and block like crazy with their tower shield, parry with their axe, and evade a little bit better with their usual 2x in dodge.

Grendeg does have a point that evade mastery really doesn't help robes (<0 == 0) and doesn't help plate, so all thats left that it does help is chain, scale and leather.

Ditto with cmans for archers, mine has wspec, combat mobility, and combat movement for even more DS on top of mbp and spell tanking. And yah, i don't hide for the speed factor of doing it takes too long.

[Fallen]

>>You mean to discourage the heavy armor and not the twc right?

Yes. TWC is a very Roguish activity, but I think it's pretty well supported currently. I do have an idea or two for TWC CMANs, but they're still in the design stage.

> Skill Name: Feign Death

I think Rogues could definitely use a cool, active defense CMAN similar to Feign Death, if not it exactly. Again, I'm working on the design of one already, which I actually prefer because it'd be far easier to implement than Feign Death (this would require a lot of creature behavioral tweaks which are non-trivial).

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


Bully for playing Opossum!

[Fallen]

Meanwhile warrriors can have all 3, and block like crazy with their tower shield, parry with their axe, and evade a little bit better with their usual 2x in dodge.

If you're using a Tower and plate, IMO dodge is a waste of points. You could argue partial plate, but what kind of a warrior fights in less than FP?

[Asha]

If you're using a Tower and plate, IMO dodge is a waste of points. You could argue partial plate, but what kind of a warrior fights in less than FP?

Post cap 2xing Dodge is not at all a waste of points.
Any gain whatsoever after cap is added security no matter how small. Waste of time, maybe but still extra defence.

[TheLastShamurai]

Even though it isn't designed only for capped players, I think it would be perfectly legitimate to design maneuvers with capped players in mind, simply because there should be more interesting things at and beyond the level cap, as many a player has requested. So I wouldn't be opposed to designing CMs with high prerequisites (which I have done for both Rogues and Monks) with the intention that they'd be used almost exclusively by capped players.

They really need more stuff like this for all professions.

And, you know, actually have some way to find the points to train in them.

[Fallen]

Post cap 2xing Dodge is not at all a waste of points.
Any gain whatsoever after cap is added security no matter how small. Waste of time, maybe but still extra defence.

I disagree here. At SOME point, yes, a warrior should go all the way up to 3x, even if they are a Tower shield using, full plate wearing build. However, there are a GREAT DEAL of other things they should spend their points on before that point. What immediately comes to mind is 3x Shield Use and 3x Physicial Fitness.

[kookiegod]

If you're using a Tower and plate, IMO dodge is a waste of points. You could argue partial plate, but what kind of a warrior fights in less than FP?

I am right now at 39 with my warrior, I don't have the points for more than MBP.

(at level 39), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Two Weapon Combat..................| 182 82 82
Armor Use..........................| 180 80 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 178 78 78
Blunt Weapons......................| 182 82 82
Thrown Weapons.....................| 182 82 82
Physical Fitness...................| 182 82 82
Dodging............................| 179 79 79
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10 10
Harness Power......................| 50 10 10
Perception.........................| 182 82 82
Climbing...........................| 70 15 15
Swimming...........................| 25 5 5
Training Points: 3 Phy 0 Mnt (142 Phy converted to Mnt)

CoL Master, master of berserk and tricks, working on tackle

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 3
Weapon Bonding bonding 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1
Parry Mastery pmastery 3

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 7

Points are f'n tough doing a dual hammer thrower.

[Fallen]

Dual hammer user probably doesn't get too much use out of a shield, as evidenced by your lack of Shield training. Dodge IS useful to warriors, just not one in FP plate and with a tower.

[kookiegod]

Dual hammer user probably doesn't get too much use out of a shield, as evidenced by your lack of Shield training. Dodge IS useful to warriors, just not one in FP plate and with a tower.

My point is full plate is quite unlikely for that build till much muich later, if ever. Not all warriors should be in full plate, and not all rogues shouldn't be which is where Oscuro seems to be headed.

[Fallen]

My point is full plate is quite unlikely for that build till much muich later, if ever. Not all warriors should be in full plate, and not all rogues shouldn't be which is where Oscuro seems to be headed.

Unless they have more nerfs in mind for those in FP, which they might, I don't see a good number of rogues ever leaving it. I simply don't think they will support the build with future mechanical additions.

The question is, "What would it take to get rogues OUT of FP that they haven't done already?"

1. Dodge/Maneuver changes that slaps on a nasty penalty to dodge critter maneuvers while in plate. I see this as unlikely, as it would fuck warriors in the ass.

2. Further Stealth based penalties to being in plate.

Nothing else really comes to mind.

[Ryvicke]

Unless they have more nerfs in mind for those in FP, which they might, I don't see a good number of rogues ever leaving it. I simply don't think they will support the build with future mechanical additions.

The question is, "What would it take to get rogues OUT of FP that they haven't done already?"

1. Dodge/Maneuver changes that slaps on a nasty penalty to dodge critter maneuvers while in plate. I see this as unlikely, as it would fuck warriors in the ass.

2. Further Stealth based penalties to being in plate.

Nothing else really comes to mind.

This is probably somewhere under your number 2 but they could give moderate to severe penalties to AIMing ambushes and ranged weapons when in plate. There's already penalties based on critter size and weapon size. I guess I'm talking something that really can't be trained out of, like a lance hide/ambush type thing. This kind of penalty would be much more devastating than just the hiding issues associated with plate.

But I really think based on everything Oscuro has said that he's just going to make CMANs that benefit lighter armors, seemingly one will give access to some sort of pseudo-ambush-haste, and I'm guessing if it's only available with light armor it might just be sexy enough to get someone out of plate.

[Fallen]

This is probably somewhere under your number 2 but they could give moderate to severe penalties to AIMing ambushes and ranged weapons when in plate.

This would hurt Warriors and Paladins as well, unless the penalty was only applied while in hiding, which wouldn't make any sense. I'm not saying they would never consider it, but it would piss 3 professions right the fuck off.

[Mogonis]

This would hurt Warriors and Paladins as well, unless the penalty was only applied while in hiding, which wouldn't make any sense. I'm not saying they would never consider it, but it would piss 3 professions right the fuck off.
Plus, these penalties would basically kill diversity. Every non-rogue would become claidh-swinging tanks in full plate. But it's Simu, and their #1 goal is to drive away their customers.

[Ryvicke]

This would hurt Warriors and Paladins as well, unless the penalty was only applied while in hiding, which wouldn't make any sense. I'm not saying they would never consider it, but it would piss 3 professions right the fuck off.

Completely forgot to mention that it would only be while engaged in the stealth system.

I guess to me it makes perfect sense, that the act of ambushing from hiding is a split second window of everything between two combatants aligning for one to do this, and that plate would hinder that. I always imagined open ambushing as the warrior/paladin's combat knowledge providing them with an opening throughout a prolonged "engagement."

I'm guessing you're absolutely correct that Oscuro won't do anything to piss off warriors/paladins in plate.

[Fallen]

Completely forgot to mention that it would only be while engaged in the stealth system.

I guess to me it makes perfect sense, that the act of ambushing from hiding is a split second window of everything between two combatants aligning for one to do this, and that plate would hinder that. I always imagined open ambushing as the warrior/paladin's combat knowledge providing them with an opening throughout a prolonged "engagement."

I'm guessing you're absolutely correct that Oscuro won't do anything to piss off warriors/paladins in plate.

I suppose I could see this coming to pass, but this would cause atleast a few rogues to pull the, "Fuck you, I quit", card out of their ass. Personally, I wouldn't blame them.

[TheLastShamurai]

I don't know how much of an impact it would have on Rogues training styles, maybe none at all, but I think they should factor Dodge into CMAN defense.

Obviously the heavier penalty they put on heavy armor, the more it would encourage lighter armor in this instance.

And free up CMAN points for them to actually feel like it's viable to train in these supposedly pimp CMANs Oscuro is working on as opposed to spending their points on defensive CMANs like the rest of us.

[StrayRogue]

At the end of the day, they have to make rogues be much more survivable in lighter armors. So they either have to avoid damage more often, or be able to control a room much more capably (like a semi/pure). At the moment in 1v1 a robe-wearing rogue can still die if he is EBP'd.

While I'm not saying that factor should be removed, we do need abilities that allow us to quickly control single and multiple critters without risk along a similar vein to ewave/quake/tremors/bind/spike etc.

I'd be for lowering the rt of skills like sweep, subdue etc, reducing their stamina costs, and making subdue and cheapshots usable from hiding (and auto re-hides you).

At the moment combat is so slow as you spend at least 2 seconds of hard rt hiding, let alone the swing and subsequent attacks. For a subdue it would take me...7 seconds to subdue a single creature. For 30 stamina? Pointless.

[BigWorm]

This is probably somewhere under your number 2 but they could give moderate to severe penalties to AIMing ambushes and ranged weapons when in plate. There's already penalties based on critter size and weapon size. I guess I'm talking something that really can't be trained out of, like a lance hide/ambush type thing. This kind of penalty would be much more devastating than just the hiding issues associated with plate.

But I really think based on everything Oscuro has said that he's just going to make CMANs that benefit lighter armors, seemingly one will give access to some sort of pseudo-ambush-haste, and I'm guessing if it's only available with light armor it might just be sexy enough to get someone out of plate.

Oscuro has said he won't be adding any penalties to plate without making lighter armor more survivable. Right now the CvA (i.e. TD) difference between brig and plate (8 vs -13) is as pretty strong reason to avoid lighter armors.

[Fallen]

To factor dodge into maneuvers, especially CMANs, would require a pretty hardcore amount of tweaking. I think they would have to make maneuvers automatically achieve higher endrolls overall, then with enough dodge training..say 101 ranks? You break even. 101-2x you start pulling ahead, and 3x dodge, you really give yourself an edge despite diminishing return.

Even with phantom dodge ranks from our spells, I think pures would get the screw. Not that I have a problem with that, but it would definitely suck, as dodge is by far our most expensive skill. Still, without making the baseline harder, a 3x dodge rogue/warrior would be more immune to CMANs/Maneuvers than a pure is to spells.

[TheLastShamurai]

To factor dodge into maneuvers, especially CMANs, would require a pretty hardcore amount of tweaking. I think they would have to make maneuvers automatically achieve higher endrolls overall, then with enough dodge training..say 101 ranks? You break even. 101-2x you start pulling ahead, and 3x dodge, you really give yourself an edge despite diminishing return.

Even with phantom dodge ranks from our spells, I think pures would get the screw. Not that I have a problem with that, but it would definitely suck, as dodge is by far our most expensive skill. Still, without making the baseline harder, a 3x dodge rogue/warrior would be more immune to CMANs/Maneuvers than a pure is to spells.

I just think that inherently, if you can dodge like a ninja, you shouldn't have to train as hard in a particular CMAN to be as effective in its defense. And I don't necessarily mean that Dodge would effect endrolls, but I do think it should play a part somehow.

Obviously though, there are no easy solutions in making lighter armor more viable or Rogues more pimplicious as a whole. And although I applaud any effort to make a profession more pimp, it does seem like they aren't willing to go down tough roads, just the "quick and easy fixes" ya know.

[m444w]

At the moment in 1v1 a robe-wearing rogue can still die if he is EBP'd.


I've hunted in everything from 4x robes to brig, and for the worst week in my GS career death-wise MBP.

1v1, rogue is champ like-level. I'm pretty much invulnerable unless they get a CS spell off (in which case, you're fucked no matter the AsG), but as many people have pointed, there is a less of a chance of you being fucked if you're in a higher AsG outright by warding.

For me survivability lies in raw DS/EBP. When I get bound, I have a high enough raw DS + EBP to sit there and wait without getting scratched, as opposed to taking the nicks.

[m444w]

the above exception to CS spells, being 1 minute of stacked RT/incapacitation from bandits insane ability to hit me with rogue gambits/subdue/sstrike, even though I'm a rogue.

[Danical]

Having an engaged GM is pretty damned awesome.

[Mogonis]

Why was breastplate so bad for you?

[Fallen]

>>Oscuro, What comes to mind when you think of a rogue? What can we change to make them like that?

There are a lot of different builds that I think are Roguish:
1) The traditional Cloak and Dagger Rogue. They use stealth as a defense and stab things with a dagger or other small weapon in precision strikes. This is the standard AMBUSH Rogue build and is the one I want to add the most support to.

2) Swashbuckler. These types typically forgo stealth and remain in the open wielding two weapons and will train in MOC so they can offset FoF and do the occasional MSTRIKE. As Rogues, they'll usually stick with lighter weapons so they remain quick. This is the build that I felt Evade Mastery benefits the most, since you need to EBP if you're not in stealth. I have a couple ideas to boost this build, too.

3) Sniper. Archer or Thrown weapon Rogues that attack from hiding. Ranged combat is not my expertise and, from what I can tell, is overpowered, so I don't think I'm going to be touching that. Thrown weapons can use a lot of help, and GM Lusus is actively working on that project and I'm looking forward to its resolution as much as anyone.

4) The Arcane Trickster. A Rogue that uses a few magic spells to improve their other abilities. Since magic skills have high costs, this typically means forgoing a lot of other strengths, but it does provide a lot of additional options. I think lots of Rogues have headed in this direction post-cap since the higher TP cost is irrelevant at that stage. This provides a bit of a balance issue, but I'd rather attempt to make the other builds more appealing than directly penalize this one.

5) The Ruffian. This is a build that acts similar to Warriors where they usually fight in the open, in heavy armor and use heavy weapons. They differ from Warriors in that they use Rogue style dirty tricks to overcome their foes. I have no problems with this style, but I think far more Rogues go this direction than one would think and it's because plate armor is simply too appealing and isn't penalized enough for the activities that the other builds need to do, such as hiding. While I would like to introduce penalties to stealth rolls for wearing plate, I don't think this is achievable without having a veritable riot on my hands - at least not without making lighter armor more viable first. It's best to approach this by just giving an opportunity cost for not picking light armor.

These are the main builds I envision Rogues having. Of course there are many that are hybrids of these but I think it covers the bases pretty well.

My main design goals for Rogues are the following:
1) Make offensive CMANs more useful so they truly are an integrated aspect of Rogue combat.
2) Improve stealth combat so it's more easily used as a defense mechanism.
3) Make light armor more appealing than it is by providing better defense.

A couple lesser goals that I have:
1) Make the INF stat more useful as I like the idea of charismatic Rogues being a decent stat build beyond just a dexterous or a strong rogue. This should mostly appeal to the Swashbuckler build.
2) Make lighter weapons more useful. This was handled very well with the conversion to GS4, but I do have a couple extra ideas here.

All of this is still up for discussion and is most certainly in the design stage. There are no guarantees. If I get some things approved, I plan to present most of the stuff ahead of time so there's time for discussion before I dive head first into coding. This is what I did with Divert.

I really must stress that beyond Divert, none of this is either guaranteed nor even if it's approved, will it likely be released in short order. Monks are priority one for the dev team until that project is complete.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

.

[Fallen]

>>Why a small weapon instead of any weapon? What's wrong with a claidhmore?

Because ambushing with a dagger is 2/3 of the time ambushing with a heavy weapon, so you're back in the shadows faster, thus better defended. Also, it speeds up combat far more, which is a major complaint you seem to have. I've never had an issue killing things with a dagger. Most stuff dies in one hit, regardless of the armor they're in (at least at cap w/ 2x ambush).

In response to all the requests for details, I'm not about to show my hand when I can't promise to follow up. I won't give any details unless things I have approval of concept and resources.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

.

[Fallen]

>>I think that's a very lamentable attitude on the part of staff these days. GMs used to freely talk about their ideas with the disclaimer that they weren't official and approved.

It's not attitude. It's policy. And I personally think it's a good one, b/c in the past, GMs promised all sorts of crazy things and now, the staff who's left, is essentially required to make good on those promises. A substantial number of my projects have been and are things former GMs promised and aren't really interesting to me. One day, I will leave staff, and I don't want the GMs I leave behind to be forced to take up projects I promised because I couldn't make good on them.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

My favorite quote of the thread so far, even if some GMs use this as a sham shield to avoid interacting with their profession.

[Fallen]

>>Out of curiosity, where do you envision the locksmithing rogue amongst all of these paradigms or the generic 'jack of all trades' type rogue, or do you feel they belong to a more classical bardic character? When I look at your five descriptions, each one I can pinpoint what skills I would lack to make that build effective.

Jack of all trades falls under a hybrid of the styles I mentioned, which I said is probably where most actual characters lie. Locksmithing isn't a combat build, so I didn't mention it, but I do consider it an integral part of the Rogue profession.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


Keeping me busy today. Though this comment is of interest to me. I do hear that since locksmithing is open to everyone, it shouldn't essentially be considered as a rogue's defining strength. However, if locksmithing is seen as an "intregral" part of the profession, that means they are going to be balanced around having points left over for training in it, thus having an edge ABOVE lowered costs. It doesn't put it on the level of Cleric Raising and Empath Healing in terms of exclusivity as a secondary exp source, but it is an important distinction.

Just my opinion, though.

[Kitsun]

My favorite quote of the thread so far, even if some GMs use this as a sham shield to avoid interacting with their profession.

I get sick of people complaining about all the shit GMs promised but never made good on and I'm not even a GM that got saddled with someone's promise. I can't imagine how irritating it must be for them.

Maybe it is a sign that I'm just not passionate about the game anymore but I'm willing to take the game as is and try to enjoy/survive game changes as they eventually hit.

[Fallen]

I get sick of people complaining about all the shit GMs promised but never made good on and I'm not even a GM that got saddled with someone's promise. I can't imagine how irritating it must be for them. Maybe it is a sign that I'm just not passionate about the game anymore but I'm willing to take the game as is and try to enjoy/survive game changes as they eventually hit.

True, but how many professions hear exactly DICK from their GM counterpart year after year? If this is the reason they want to give as to why they don't interact on the officials with their appointed ward, then I think it's crap. Note: I DONT mean this in Oscuro's case, but I certainly do mean it in the case of other Profession Gurus.

[Buckwheet]

What I found somewhat annoying is that the four "options" don't fit my choice of RP(cause who roleplays mirite?) in my decision to be a rogue back in GS3.

I just find it unfortunate that there is a desire to mechanically change a class based upon one person's vision on how they see a rogue class.

I know I picked a rogue because I simply wanted a better lock picker and a much more physical build than what a ranger could give me, but I didn't to be a warrior(back in 1996). I also much more prefer the guild skills that come with the rogue over the warrior as the warrior guild skills just didn't fit my character.

I can understand the argument about hiding in full plate, I am not sold on plate class armor as a whole being changed.

Call me a carebear, but with some of the sweeping changes being talked about it would be nice if you could decide to make a class change to a offshoot. So if they rolled out the changes he has described you could switch to warrior/ranger.

I would switch to a ranger in a heart beat with the changes and vision he is talking about. I feel the rogue as is, is a complete class.

[Kitsun]

I don't think Oscuro is championing a change to the plate rogue at all. He doesn't agree with it but he's saying he doesn't want to roll in negatives, he wants to roll in benefits to lighter armor.

[Fallen]

I don't think Oscuro is championing a change to the plate rogue at all. He doesn't agree with it but he's saying he doesn't want to roll in negatives, he wants to roll in benefits to lighter armor.

5) The Ruffian. This is a build that acts similar to Warriors where they usually fight in the open, in heavy armor and use heavy weapons. They differ from Warriors in that they use Rogue style dirty tricks to overcome their foes. I have no problems with this style, but I think far more Rogues go this direction than one would think and it's because plate armor is simply too appealing and isn't penalized enough for the activities that the other builds need to do, such as hiding. While I would like to introduce penalties to stealth rolls for wearing plate, I don't think this is achievable without having a veritable riot on my hands - at least not without making lighter armor more viable first. It's best to approach this by just giving an opportunity cost for not picking light armor.

Bolded words are important, with the underlined section especially so.

[Kitsun]

I focused on the last line about opportunity cost.

[DaCapn]

Even with phantom dodge ranks from our spells, I think pures would get the screw. Not that I have a problem with that, but it would definitely suck, as dodge is by far our most expensive skill. Still, without making the baseline harder, a 3x dodge rogue/warrior would be more immune to CMANs/Maneuvers than a pure is to spells.

The thing about getting nailed by cmans (in my view) is that whether you get nailed as a rogue or nailed as a pure, RT lock is RT lock. The two main differences are that (1) more often than not, rogues will be starting out in offensive and pures will be starting off in guarded (either might be stanced up with feint or whatever). (2) Once you get stanced up, dodge DS plummets and passive bonuses (as from spells) stay constant.

As it stands, my rogue has basically a 100% chance of getting nailed by cmans that he doesn't train in. So... basically whatever is not sweep (not that this is a dominant critter cman anyway).


Obviously though, there are no easy solutions in making lighter armor more viable or Rogues more pimplicious as a whole. And although I applaud any effort to make a profession more pimp, it does seem like they aren't willing to go down tough roads, just the "quick and easy fixes" ya know.

One suggestion made by someone (which seems crazy initially) is to have a haste-like component in lighter armors. If done right, it could be a great solution. If overtraining in armor provided an RT bonus (subtraction) for swinging/firing/cocking and climb/swim/maneuvers, more people would use lighter armors. It would be a pretty good justification for reducing rogue armor TP costs too (the assumption being that rogues train more heavily in armor now than they did before and got RT benefits).

All this being said, my #1 concern with rogues is that they're incredibly weak against a swarm. I wouldn't expect to do the things I do with a wizard and 518 but SOMETHING should be done. It really cuts into the hunting options. As a wizard (the only pure I have experience with), I can hunt undead, swarming areas, and slow-spawn areas alike whether I'm solo or grouped with only basic class training. In each case I'm equally effective. As a rogue, you confine yourself (looking solely at class training) mostly to slow-spawn areas and primarily to slow-moving creatures (or fast ones that). You can deal with some light swarming if you get 410 or if you go into plate mid-game.

People keep chatting up a lot of things that have little to do with the real mechanical shortcomings of rogues (at least in my opinion). It seems like there's a lot more weight given to the capped experience, though.

[Fallen]

I had a thought concerning a rogue CMAN. Instead of having a flat bonus to evasion, how about a maneuver that decreases the penalties to evasion when in higher stances? It COULD be passive, but I think it would be cooler if it was able to be activated at high cost when stunned or even in RT. While the CMAN would have SOME effect for those in plate, it would be far more effective for those as they drop down to lighter armor.

Thoughts?

[Celephais]

How about a CMAN (passive or not) that works against the main rogue weakness, crowds. Instead of piling on FoF modifiers, if a rogue is in a crowd of enemies and has this CMAN, and the manueverability (read not in plate) to use the crowd against itself he'd actually improve his defense (reasonably capped), with extreme training providing a chance to cause an opponent to accidently attack another creature (maybe have a passive bonus to evade based on crowd size, and an activated ability that triggers a chance of using a 'human shield'). Possibly even allowing it's use to confuse an opponent such that even spells can be cast at the wrong target in the confusion.

The less armored, the better able to weave in and out of the crowd and cause it to work against itself, with no/little benefit to plate wearers.

[Fallen]

I could see that. CM sidestep. You could target a creature from hiding, and sort of have a crowd press thing going on. When creatures attack the rogue, they have any evade count as a swing against the creature.

[Makkah]

Am I the only one actually excited that he (or any GM in the past 6 months) mentioned monks?

[Stanley Burrell]

Am I the only one actually excited that he (or any GM in the past 6 months) mentioned monks?

I got so excited I popped wood and spooged.



Masturbating last night.

[Cap'nDrak]

How about a CMAN (passive or not) that works against the main rogue weakness, crowds. Instead of piling on FoF modifiers, if a rogue is in a crowd of enemies and has this CMAN, and the manueverability (read not in plate) to use the crowd against itself he'd actually improve his defense (reasonably capped), with extreme training providing a chance to cause an opponent to accidently attack another creature (maybe have a passive bonus to evade based on crowd size, and an activated ability that triggers a chance of using a 'human shield'). Possibly even allowing it's use to confuse an opponent such that even spells can be cast at the wrong target in the confusion.

The less armored, the better able to weave in and out of the crowd and cause it to work against itself, with no/little benefit to plate wearers.

This makes me think Assassin's Creed. I approve.

[Androidpk]

So basically rogues are hungering for more cman.

[DaCapn]

How about a CMAN (passive or not) that works against the main rogue weakness, crowds. Instead of piling on FoF modifiers, if a rogue is in a crowd of enemies and has this CMAN, and the manueverability (read not in plate) to use the crowd against itself he'd actually improve his defense (reasonably capped), with extreme training providing a chance to cause an opponent to accidently attack another creature (maybe have a passive bonus to evade based on crowd size, and an activated ability that triggers a chance of using a 'human shield'). Possibly even allowing it's use to confuse an opponent such that even spells can be cast at the wrong target in the confusion.

The less armored, the better able to weave in and out of the crowd and cause it to work against itself, with no/little benefit to plate wearers.

I suggested that once and it was promptly ignored. It's a standard tactic to use when fighting multiple opponents: maneuver around them in a "monkey in the middle" fashion to make sure you don't get surrounded.

Unfortunately it's not much of a fix for the current situation, though. If you make one cman that fixes some of the rogue imbalances, it becomes the mandatory cman (with the implication that it will then go the way of smastery and surge some day). People will just drop whichever they consider to be their most tertiary cman and take this one. I kind of have a problem with cornering a profession into doing one particular thing.


So basically rogues are hungering for more cman.

I think that's what Oscuro is willing to provide as a solution. Personally, I don't want it. With respect to cmans, people seem to want existing ones to not be so crappy. If that is done by replacing them with ones that are actually good, that's considered a solution.

[LeDru]

As a dagger using rogue in the tower, speed has become my main defense. Kill them before cast or swing. That being said, the main reason I and most rogues wear plate is the cva. You reach a point where most things cast. Personally I just want group hiding fixed and anything that reduces the amount of time l'm exposed in offensive

[Celephais]

I suggested that once and it was promptly ignored. It's a standard tactic to use when fighting multiple opponents: maneuver around them in a "monkey in the middle" fashion to make sure you don't get surrounded.

Unfortunately it's not much of a fix for the current situation, though. If you make one cman that fixes some of the rogue imbalances, it becomes the mandatory cman (with the implication that it will then go the way of smastery and surge some day). People will just drop whichever they consider to be their most tertiary cman and take this one. I kind of have a problem with cornering a profession into doing one particular thing.



I think that's what Oscuro is willing to provide as a solution. Personally, I don't want it. With respect to cmans, people seem to want existing ones to not be so crappy. If that is done by replacing them with ones that are actually good, that's considered a solution.
That's why I suggested it have steeply diminishing returns with heavier armor, it's only manditory for individuals with light armor, and they were already hurting on the viability. It's kind of silly to call anything mandatory in GS, it's more of a "If you want the most powerful option, take this skill".


As a dagger using rogue in the tower, speed has become my main defense. Kill them before cast or swing. That being said, the main reason I and most rogues wear plate is the cva. You reach a point where most things cast. Personally I just want group hiding fixed and anything that reduces the amount of time l'm exposed in offensive
The plate for cva reasons is why I suggested allowing the crowd cman to work with spells (I'd say even let you evade cs spells, not just retarget them) the confusion caused by your weaving in and out of the crowd being enough to cause the caster to lose focus being the 'justification'. With the diminishing returns of having heavier armor you're then making a choice between better defending against a single caster getting a cast off on you, or better being able to attack a group of casters (giving you more time to disable them while you avoid the casts).

[Fallen]

I missed this post. Reading the officials in guest mode blows. Pay special attention to Oscuro's comments regarding archery


>>More of these type rogues hunt old TaFaendryl than any other.

>>Making silent strike aim able and passive seems to a good solution here. Is this a possibility?

Making silent strike aimable and passive would completely negate the necessity to hide in the first place. The RT necessary to step into hiding is one of the main balancing factors of allowing ambush hiding to be as deadly as it is. I do agree that Silent Strike should be made more appealing so it is an integral part of the Cloak and Dagger Rogue's arsenal, but I don't necessarily think these are the directions.

>>Rogues in the open are fodder for spell casting creatures.. I am curious to see your ideas for this build. There were also similar builds for voln brawlers but Monks will probably make that look fairly tame by comparison.

I agree that this is certainly an area that would need to be addressed to keep this build workable.

>>I have yet to hear anyone quantify how ranged is overpowered. More than a few times I have stealthed into a room with a large swarm and have a pure build enter just after and wipe out the entire room before I was out of RT. Some type of wizard build that fried in about one second flat. :) Same situation, Ranger comes into the room I just stealthed into and bang, some mass effect spell, natures fury perhaps, and dead rogue along with a room full of creatures. Ive been killed in similar situations by sorcerers in old Ta Faendryl with mass elemental ewave, all just by accident. I do not begrudge pures or semis being powerful. But I dont get some of those same pures, semis and even some rogues complaining about ranged being so powerful in light of other things within the game that make ranged pale in comparison.

When the most powerful bow can have its RT dropped to the RT of a dagger, and then even below that if the attack is aimed, always deals puncture damage and has ways to increase the success of hitting the location desired far more easily than the already slower fighting style of melee, and has lower DS than melee, there's something objectively wrong from a balance perspective.

Yes, spell casters can use multi-target attacks, but these cost considerable mana - a limited resource. Firing repeated 3 second kill shots with no resource drain is not comparable.

>>At the very least crossbows could use some help.

Yep.

>>I am tempted to say that if any rogue build is overpowered it is a rogue in plate. :) But the official docs say something about rogues being only second to warriors in being able to wear heavy armor.
So it seems to me that was the intent of the design.

That profession blurb was written well before GSIV (the GemStone IV statement in it was from a Find/Replace on the play.net page) before things like the Dodge skill were released, which was meant to partially replace heavier armor for Rogues. Many of the profession blurbs are outdated, at least in some minor aspects.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
*

[droit]

Wuh oh.

[Ryvicke]

That's bad news... I'm trying to dig it up but last week on the Rogue forums he said "Archery seems imbalanced, but I'm not going to spend time to make people QQ"

I hope he didn't change his mind on that.

EDIT: Ahhhh it was in his Rogue types post...


3) Sniper. Archer or Thrown weapon Rogues that attack from hiding. Ranged combat is not my expertise and, from what I can tell, is overpowered, so I don't think I'm going to be touching that. Thrown weapons can use a lot of help, and GM Lusus is actively working on that project and I'm looking forward to its resolution as much as anyone.

[waywardgs]

Ranged combat is not my expertise...

... let's just leave it at that, please.

[DaCapn]

Whenever I want to be sure that a ranged rogue isn't overpowered, I log in my wizard.

I don't think Oscuro's is quite going in the right direction with rogues. He's most certainly not going in the wrong direction, though. I'm just hoping there's a big picture that I'm not privy to and he's just moving in baby steps.

I definitely have to give him props with how he communicates. He's straight with everything and responds well for someone having a dozen people pissing in his ear at once. Recently this has more to do with his exchanges with Grendeg. I know some people just like to see Grendeg get shut down. I don't particularly care about that. I'm just glad that Oscuro tells it how he sees it and that he doesn't withhold his opinions because he's speaking with a customer and his opinion might turn them off. And when he lays it out, he's professional with it.

[Fallen]

Though already X-posted by Inspire in the Random GM Official posts log, this is important enough to be posted again here. Amazing changes. Vanish? Insane.
----


The following are NOT yet implemented, but are the plans that we have for stealth CMANs. I wanted to post them now so that people can plan for the impending annual fixskills on May 20th (which these updates will almost assuredly NOT be ready by) and also to discuss them.

The general goals of these changes are to provide a desirable CMAN build for Rogues going the standard stealth route and to greater facilitate hiding as a defense, so that Rogues can feasibly stay in the shadows for more of their time in the field, and thus, rely less on heavy armor. Along with the recent addition of CMAN Divert, I believe the following changes will achieve these goals.

Silent Strike -
The base chance to successfully remain hidden will be increased. The contribution of both Ambush ranks and Stalk & Hide to success will also both increase. Having the Armored Stealth armor specialization active will also add to success. The success chance will no longer be capped at 95%, but 99%.

Silent Strike's stamina cost will be reduced from 25 to 20.

Cutthroat & Subdue -
If the Rogue also has equivalent or superior training in Silent Strike, the Rogue will attempt to remain hidden when performing the respective maneuver. For example, if you have 4 ranks of Cutthroat and 4 or more ranks of Silent Strike, you will have a chance at staying hidden when performing the Cutthroat maneuver using the same success formula as Silent Strike. For this determination, 50+ guild ranks of Subdue require 5 ranks of Silent Strike for the chance to remain hidden.

Shadow Mastery -
The CMP (CMAN Point) cost for this CMAN will be reduced from 3/5/7/9/11 to 2/4/6/8/10 for Rogues and from 4/7/10/13/16 to 3/6/9/12/15 for Rangers, thus a reduction of 1 CMP per rank. As an aside, Monks are no longer candidates for Shadow Mastery as stealth is not meant to be one of their main fortes.

Vanish -
A new CMAN will be available...

Vanish
Available to: Rogues
Stamina Cost: 25 + 1 per second of RT remaining without Shadow Mastery active, per two seconds of RT with Shadow Mastery active
Prerequisite: Rank 4 of Shadow Mastery
CMP Cost: 4/8/12
You immediately attempt to hide with 0 RT. At rank 2, you are able to hide while in 5 seconds or less of RT. At rank 3, you can hide while in any amount of RT.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

[TheLastShamurai]

CMAN Ninja Vanish!

[m444w]

Great ideas, but the stamina costs are way out of proportion with the usability that they will require.

[Fallen]

>>Is vanishing a normal hiding roll for success?

Yes.

>>Is it actually 50+ guild ranks of subdue that requires the 5 ranks of silent strike, or 41+?

50+. 40-49 guild ranks translates to rank 4 in the CMAN.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=28&topic=2&message=3993

[Fallen]

>>Does 0-9 guild ranks need no silent strike ranks then?

It will default to 1 rank.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=28&topic=2&message=3995

[Fallen]

In Response to this post:


This is CRAZY Oscuro. I would use stronger language but I don't want this post getting pulled.

Like it or not, Gemstone has laws that govern it's physical reality, you have to work within those laws. Roundtime exists for every physical action, as well it should. If you do an action that is physical, that uses your muscles (by evidenced by a stamina cost) then it should take time.

Vanish is one of the craziest ideas I have ever heard.

Not only do you allow a rogue to do something physical that costs stamina in O rt (something a wizard can't even do anymore with the haste nerf), you allow them to do it while in RT itself?

RT, again, is part of the physical laws of Elanthia. If you swing a sword, the RT represents the time you're occupied with that activity. So now a rogue, during a swing, can become superman and move faster than is physically possible to counterract that?

That isn't a physical skill, that is magic. If CMAN Vanish exists, it shouldn't cost stamina, it should cost mana, because it is magic. I'm sure you know this, Rangers have a SPELL that more or less does it, don't they? Hmmm?

To instantly be able to hide is a MAGICAL ability, not a physical ability.

If you implement this you will be putting your name on what is probably the most inconsistent piece of game programming ever released. This is not good game design, this is not logical, it is complete monty haul ability boosting junk.

What is next? Allowing a rogue to aim with a bow, and cause a wound, without having to actually fire an arrow? It would make as much sense as this.

All your other changes fine. I'm sure I'll get booed for this post by all the rogue boosters who want anything at any cost no matter how little sense it makes. I could care less how many overpowered CMANs you give rogues, but for the love of koar (haha), let them make sense within the physical reality of Elanthia.

Let the CMAN reduce RT to 1 second, like haste. But if haste, MAGIC, can't let you perform a physical task in 0 seconds, how can a CMAN do it? You're standing in the middle of a clearing and before a single grain of sand drops through an hourglass you're hiding? That is MAGIC, not a physical ability.

There is no ability, in game, that can reduce a physical RT to less than 1 second. And when there was, it was fixed because it was decided it made no sense. That should be a clue to you.

If you made this a guild skill rogues learned, and had to require mana to use, I wouldn't have a problem with it, because it would make sense like that anyways, we'd just have to start calling rogues semis because they'd have their own spells. But at least it wouldn't break all the physical rules of Elanthia. But this... a cman.. a physical skill using stamina to do something magical that even magic can't do.... redonkulous.

Think. Don't be redonkulous.

Any physical action needs to take at least 1 second of time, that is a hard and fast rule of Elanthia, you're breaking it. You're saying rogues can use their muscles to move faster than time itself. Do they get a funky high from the yellow sun or what?

Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs (https://www.play.net/forums/redirect.asp?URL=http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs)/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental (https://www.play.net/forums/redirect.asp?URL=http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental)/




Using RP concepts for balancing mechanics is bad design. If this was always done, then pures would always be superior to squares as nothing could ever compete with magic. Since this is a fantasy game, where appropriate, we can allow physical characters to accomplish extraordinary feats.

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[Fallen]

>>Of course, none of this really makes a rogue want to wear lighter armor.

It's not explicit - it's implicit. These changes are to ensure Rogues can remain in the shadows longer, so they don't need the armor, not that they're prevented from using it. By forgoing heavy armor, they'd have more TPs to train in CM to get the CMP for these skills, to increase their stalk/hide and ambushing ranks and PF ranks to get more stamina.

The ideas I have for "in the open" builds for Rogues that follow concepts like an artful dodger or a swashbuckler include more explicit means to discourage heavy armor. The dev team is still in discussion about these, though.

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[Fallen]

>>What is NOT fantasy is to have one rule some of the time, and another rule the rest of the time.

That's absolutely ridiculous. That's like saying "before Miracle, no one could raise themself from the dead, so Miracle breaks the rules of game design so it's inappropriate." Given appropriate balancing conditions (like the CMP and stamina costs of Vanish), any "rule" can be broken. I think you simply suffer from a lack of imagination, or perhaps envy.

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[Fallen]

>>You can't just apply a cost to rule breaking and call it good. You can't disrespect game mechanics like this.

You've apparently not played many games. In Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, for example, one of the three cardinal rules of the game is "specific trumps general," meaning that general rules are meant to be broken by specific rules. Vanish is a specific rule which trumps the general "roundtime" rule.

>>Riddle me this Oscuro, why not allow Haste to be 0 rt again? Don't pawn it off on Naos and say it is his decision, I'm asking your opinion. Is it a cost issue? Must we merely need to increase the cost enough and anything is okay?

Haste is hardly comparable. Haste applies to nearly every single action in the game and lasts for a duration of one minute. If it reduced all actions to 0 RT in that time, it would, of course, be far too powerful. It's far too powerful in its current incarnation. Vanish, on the other hand, is simply one action, no duration, one single attempt to hide, and every single activation costs a significant amount of stamina. Also, there is a substantial CMP investment for only this ability, while Haste is merely a power you gain along the way to higher spells.

>>I think it is very small of you to even suggest it.

I think it's small of you to reprimand me for the majority of my additions to the game. Disagreement is fine, but use some tact when you do. Otherwise, don't whine when you get it in return.

>>What is next? CMAN FIREBALL? CMAN RAISEDEAD?

I can't wait to hear your comments on what the Monk CML looks like.

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[m444w]

Alot of really good ideas, but stamina costs for rogue manuevers are just too high for many of them to be used to the extent he is expecting to get people out of heavy armor.

And Virilneus' arguments are a joke. heh. It's not even worth acknowledging he posts half the time.

[Fallen]

>>Is there any sort of penalty applied to the hiding attempt, or remaining hidden when using Vanish? Cooldown? I imagine there already is a penalty for attempting to hide when laying prone, let alone adding RT into the mix.

We haven't decided on any penalties for RT.

There is not going to be a cooldown, since we anticipate the stamina cost will be prohibitory enough to use the ability consistency. If we're wrong about this, we may have to adjust either the stamina cost, or more likely add a cooldown.

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[Fallen]

Alot of really good ideas, but stamina costs for rogue manuevers are just too high for many of them to be used to the extent he is expecting to get people out of heavy armor.

You're getting the carrot now, O. Don't think all of these delicious snacks wont come without the stick. Hiding/Attacking in plate is going to be nerfed. No if, ands, or buts.

[m444w]

You're getting the carrot now, O. Don't expect all of these delicious snacks wont come without the stick. Hiding/Attacking in plate is going to be nerfed. No if, ands, or buts.

That is my fear, and I can only imagine how many rogues will leave when it happens.

Also, if you did everything to be able to make these cmans useful, and a real survival hunting tactic you're not going to have the TPs for 3x dodge, which means you're screwed for when you can't pay the exorbitantly high costs to use these manuevers. Nor can you pick.


I guess, if I haven't convinced you yet, I won't. Though... at least if I think of some new buff for sorcerers it'll be nice to know I can throw any existing game rule out the window, if I'm specific enough. I wonder if I can get Forget back... sure it is kinda mental, but it is just one specific spell... This'll be great! Monty Haul for All!

Veneraleus

Guess we figured out why he was making a big deal! A platform with which to launch ridiculous ideas!

[Fallen]

That is my fear, and I can only imagine how many rogues will leave when it happens.

Also, if you did everything to be able to make these cmans useful, and a real survival hunting tactic you're not going to have the TPs for 3x dodge, which means you're screwed for when you can't pay the exorbitantly high costs to use these manuevers. Nor can you pick.

Vanish is an Oh-shit button maneuver. It isn't meant to be used often. It is to give non-plate wearing rogues a chance to survive if caught out in the open. You are relying on your hiding to buy you enough time to get away. The rest of the CMANs are all frills. They aren't meant to be used in place of hide/ambush, i'm thinking. They can make them cheap, but they can't make them be used every swing.

[Fallen]

Guess we figured out why he was making a big deal! A platform with which to launch ridiculous ideas!

You DO realize being able to hide in RT is a big deal, right? Even if expensive. There has never been a spell, CMAN, anything short of an auction quality item that let you do such a thing. It's pretty huge. Honestly, if they WEREN'T going to nerf plate armor I would say it would be overpowered. Soon, though, rogues will be primarily relying on stealth to save them, not thick armor. In that case, this is the only way they are going to keep from dying every other hunt.

[m444w]

You DO realize being able to hide in RT is a big deal, right? Even if expensive. There has never been a spell, CMAN, anything short of an auction quality item that let you do such a thing. It's pretty huge. Honestly, if they WEREN'T going to nerf plate armor I would say it would be overpowered. Soon, though, rogues will be primarily relying on stealth to save them, not thick armor. In that case, this is the only way they are going to keep from dying every other hunt.

I would say it is a big deal, except how bad stunmans preform versus berserk, rally cry, troll's blood, etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I am highly grateful for it essentially being out get out of jail free card, but it has been something the profession has been sorely lacking for a very long time.

I remember several years ago when there was serious banter about why rogues didn't have it we got the response because we are suppose to be clever, and this manuever certainly is clever enough for me.

But at the same time, it will not work infront of undead, or a variety of other insanely perceptive creatures (shan, animals in general, etc). But that viewpoint is obviously precap.

[Fallen]

>>I really do like these changes, they certainly are awesome, I just feel that their usefulness to the everyday (Locksmithing, pre-cap) rogue will not get to the point of where it should be.

They're not meant to be used exclusively. The stamina costs are intentionally high to cause their use to be slowed.

>>Also, one of the great things I saw in that it was confirmed armored stealth helps with these skills nows, but again this is only achievable well post-cap.

You can get the first rank of Armored Stealth (or Evasion) for 20 ranks of Armor Use. That's hardly a post-cap scenario.

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[m444w]

Provides a bonus to Stealth rolls equal to (Rank * 2 * (5 - Armor Group)).

Robes at rank 1:
1*2*(5-0). 10 bonus? I mean obviously we don't know how the stealth die work, but so I cannot translate into how much of a big deal that may or may not be. Keeping in mind that is fully optimized in robes.

[Fallen]

I would say it is a big deal, except how bad stunmans preform versus berserk, rally cry, troll's blood, etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I am highly grateful for it essentially being out get out of jail free card, but it has been something the profession has been sorely lacking for a very long time.

I remember several years ago when there was serious banter about why rogues didn't have it we got the response because we are suppose to be clever, and this manuever certainly is clever enough for me.

But at the same time, it will not work infront of undead, or a variety of other insanely perceptive creatures (shan, animals in general, etc). But that viewpoint is obviously precap.

I agree that a rogue getting a change to hide for 25 stamina does not = 100% survival. That's for sure. Also, unless I read this thing wrong, you can't use it while stunned.

I suppose the best use for this maneuver would be with Lich. Whenever you miss an ambush due to EBP, you have a script running which instantly activates this maneuver. Expensive? Yes, but it will go a long, long ways towards keeping you alive. Using this maneuver AFTER you've been caught in the open isn't going to work that well. You're going to likely be riding out a stun, and be injured.

[Fallen]

>>Consistency out the window.

There was never "consistency" with RT. It was always a balance tool. If RT consistently measured how long it would take an activity to be accomplished in real life, hundreds, if not thousands, of activities in game would need to be changed. The biggest example is moving from one room to another. Except for special rooms and special movement styles (like dragging or sneaking), it takes 0 RT to move from room A to room B, or room A to room Z. It's seconds to script from the Landing to Solhaven when that represents hundreds of miles in game. This is not consistent, but it is in place because of a convenience factor. There isn't a need to cause an immense amount of RT there, so we don't. There is no balancing factor of needing to slow down someone's gaining of experience or ranks in some skill by moving between rooms. Similarly, when we apply the stamina cost to Vanish, we no longer need to apply the RT cost. It's trading resources. It's no different, from a balance perspective, than casting Heal (mana -> HP) or Sign of Wracking (SP -> mana). Here Vanish is stamina -> time.

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[m444w]

I agree that a rogue getting a change to hide for 25 stamina does not = 100% survival. That's for sure. Also, unless I read this thing wrong, you can't use it while stunned.

I suppose the best use for this maneuver would be with Lich. Whenever you miss an ambush due to EBP, you have a script running which instantly activates this maneuver. Expensive? Yes, but it will go a long, long ways towards keeping you alive. Using this maneuver AFTER you've been caught in the open isn't going to work that well. You're going to likely be riding out a stun, and be injured.

I foresee it being most useful when a caster walks in after you just ambushed something, and it might have a spell prepped/just prepped one (void, stone fist, whatever TD spell of insta-death you want to pick).

[Fallen]

The only problem I have with the above argument is that GMs have time and again used "It doesn't make IC sense!!!!" as an excuse not to impliment a variety of things. Does anyone remember Mestys not implimenting Lightning protection via 620 because he didn't think there was a plant IG to properly represent it? Stupid shit happened like that all the time.

[Fallen]

I foresee it being most useful when a caster walks in after you just ambushed something, and it might have a spell prepped/just prepped one (void, stone fist, whatever TD spell of insta-death you want to pick).

Hell, I didn't even think of that. Very cool.

[Fallen]

Important information imparted there IMO.



>>Uhhh... maybe plate armor's maneuvering penalty needs to be revisited? (So that it's much more difficult to hide while wearing it, that is, since CMan Vanish is "a standard hide check" as we've been told.)

The problem is, the armor maneuver penalty has never been applied to hide checks. I don't exactly agree with the status quo, but it's going to remain, at least until lighter armor has been improved.

>>Or hey, since there's a concern about "why not just use plate and still get these CMans and use them" and also a corresponding concern about how much stamina the CMans take... make it harder to get stamina. I mean heck, you're carting around a bunch of armor weight, your stamina should be recovering less quickly.
(Translation: stamina recovery gains a bonus == 1 minus Armor Group (so Plate in AG5 will be a -4 bonus [and negative bonus == penalty]); the more you're wearing, the less stamina you get back to use for CMans.)

While good in principal, this is an undesired penalty for the classes that rely on stamina and are expected to be in heavy armor, like Warriors, Paladins, and to a lesser extent, Bards.

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[Fallen]

>>I just imagine hunting with a wizard in OTF..getting screeched into huge RT. Mage sees little effect cause he's probably running haste, meanwhile rogue vanishes only to get smacked back out of hiding by some mass effect spell. It might be more effort than its worth, but it would help the skill be more group friendly

We're eventually going to decouple hiding and stalking, to make stealth grouping easier, so this would be remedied then. This project is, unfortunately, much more labor intense than a couple CM updates and a new CM.

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[m444w]

I totally agree with the high stamina cost on the oh-shit button, but something like silentstrike (getting changed to 20 from 25), subdue (20), cutthroat (20 stamina!?).

[m444w]

>>Perhaps an armor augmentation for rogues that the lighter armor class you are in, you can adjust it so your muscles recover quicker?

An interesting idea, but with Mind over Body (1213), Monks will be the stamina cost reducing Square.

>>However, look at manuevers such as Silenstrike (the proposed lower to 20 stamina), Cutthroat (20 stamina? why wouldn't I just kill it), Subdue (20 stamina!? WHY?)

>>It is a great manuever, but tossing in the activation of smastery and it's ridiculous cooldown time, and your shadow rogue is simply not going to have the stamina to use it.

I believe these stamina costs are in line considering the power of the maneuvers involved. If anything, Cutthroat's CMP cost might be reduced when we review all the hostile maneuver's costs, but there's no guarantee.

>>And lastly: Provides a bonus to Stealth rolls equal to (Rank * 2 * (5 - Armor Group)).

>>Robes at rank 1: 1 * 2 * (5-0). 10 bonus? I mean obviously we don't know how the stealth die work, but so I cannot translate into how much of a big deal that may or may not be. Keeping in mind that is fully optimized in robes.

Robes are AG 1. Type CMAN HELP EMASTERY and it will give you a listing of what each AG is. Rank 5 of Armored Stealth in robes is a +40 to the hide roll. This is equivalent to a 40 bonus in the Stalk & Hide skill for the hide roll. Silent Strike (and its accompanying effect in Cutthroat & Subdue) use a slightly different formula, but bonuses from Armored Stealth are proportional to what they are in the hide formula.

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Cleric/Empath Team Hmm, interesting... Mainly the part about the AG, and how Armor Stealth works.

[Lumi]

You DO realize being able to hide in RT is a big deal, right? Even if expensive. There has never been a spell, CMAN, anything short of an auction quality item that let you do such a thing. It's pretty huge. Honestly, if they WEREN'T going to nerf plate armor I would say it would be overpowered. Soon, though, rogues will be primarily relying on stealth to save them, not thick armor. In that case, this is the only way they are going to keep from dying every other hunt.

Sigil of Escape set this precedent, imo. Honestly, I would almost have preferred it be a sustained CMAN and it's reactive activation would be similar to combat mobility.


But at the same time, it will not work infront of undead, or a variety of other insanely perceptive creatures (shan, animals in general, etc). But that viewpoint is obviously precap.

I thought about this (perceptive enemies), too. Injuries are also going to make it hard to pull this off.

[Fallen]

Sigil of escape works in RT?

[waywardgs]

Sigil of escape works in RT?

Sigil of escape works in RT, stunned, etc, but only once per day in that case, and only takes you to a random location a few rooms away where something can still come in and kill you. Also, if you use this mode, normal sigil of escape doesn't work for another 24 hours.

[Fallen]

Sigil of escape works in RT, stunned, etc, but only once per day in that case, and only takes you to a random location a few rooms away where something can still come in and kill you. Also, if you use this mode, normal sigil of escape doesn't work for another 24 hours.

It also takes a heavy toll on your body too, along with all? Stamina/mana, doesn't it? Even still, pretty cool. I didn't know it works in hard RT.

[Fallen]

>>Interesting that a profession with a spell is considered the stamina cost reducing Square and the heavily trained physical classes, Warriors and Rogues, are not.

Monks are, by definition, Squares. They have access to two minor spell circles. If you care to discuss this further, we can in the Monk folder.

>>Will I be able to invoke 1213? :-)

Yes, if you play a Monk. ;) Also, it's a group spell, so if you group up w/ a Monk, you can get your stamina costs reduced.

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[m444w]

This just in... raging Virilneus caught on video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc

[Archigeek]

Vanish is shocking to me. I'm stunned that they would implement this idea, particularly when no one is going to change their armor choice, whether that decision is implied as opposed to obligatory as I think Oscuro put it. People in GS don't do things because their implied... they do the opposite.

And hiding with virtual certainty with zero RT? This all adds up to some pretty insane abilities for rogues, even if they can't use it on a regular basis. Sure vanish is largely an "oh shit" button, but 25 stamina isn't that much for anyone with a good amount of CM training. Heck, surge with the cooldown penalty costs more than twice as much, (60), and I do that all the time without problems.

I would have rather they replace stunman with this vanishing thing, allowing "vanishing" during a stun instead of during RT. I hate agreeing with Virilneous, but RT has always been a sacred cow in GS. This gets us just about back to the day when rogues killing from hiding was a near 100% certainty, at least at or near cap where they'll have the stamina to use all these tricks regularly.

[Ryvicke]

It also takes a heavy toll on your body too, along with all? Stamina/mana, doesn't it? Even still, pretty cool. I didn't know it works in hard RT.

You also need at least 10 mana/10 stamina to activate it (I've found myself without these baselines a few times). And it gives you rank 3 nerve wounds and popped muscles.

I think also it should be mentioned that all of the status effects are still active for their original durations after using and teleporting. Webbed in a warcamp found in a very low-level area it can be incredible cause it pulls you out of the camp to work off the 12 round stun/web with a few roltons beating on you. It's... less amazing in like-level hunting areas, but still insanely clutch.

[Fallen]

Vanish is shocking to me. I'm stunned that they would implement this idea, particularly when no one is going to change their armor choice, whether that decision is implied as opposed to obligatory as I think Oscuro put it. People in GS don't do things because their implied... they do the opposite.

And hiding with virtual certainty with zero RT? This all adds up to some pretty insane abilities for rogues, even if they can't use it on a regular basis. Sure vanish is largely an "oh shit" button, but 25 stamina isn't that much for anyone with a good amount of CM training. Heck, surge with the cooldown penalty costs more than twice as much, (60), and I do that all the time without problems.

I would have rather they replace stunman with this vanishing thing, allowing "vanishing" during a stun instead of during RT. I hate agreeing with Virilneous, but RT has always been a sacred cow in GS. This gets us just about back to the day when rogues killing from hiding was a near 100% certainty, at least at or near cap where they'll have the stamina to use all these tricks regularly.

Agreed. As I said, without penalties for hiding in heavy armor, this ability is pretty crazy.

[BigWorm]

whine whine whine, bitch bitch bitch

Fuck you Virilneus, fuck you.

[BigWorm]

I honestly don't see how VANISH is all that imbalancing. It's basically a second chance at silent strike or sniping from the shadows. You guys are focusing on the fact that it can be activated in RT, but its less powerful than silent strike in which you stay hidden the entire time. I think this is less powerful than a bolt caster's ability to switch to offensive stance for only a fraction of a second before they are back in defensive.

[Fallen]

I honestly don't see how VANISH is all that imbalancing. It's basically a second chance at silent strike or sniping from the shadows. You guys are focusing on the fact that it can be activated in RT, but its less powerful than silent strike in which you stay hidden the entire time. I think this is less powerful than a bolt caster's ability to switch to offensive stance for only a fraction of a second before they are back in defensive.

So if vanish was instead turned into CMAN combat roll, which allowed rogues to move into guarded (not defensive) only in the Rt afforded by attacking/ambushing for 25 stamina, you would see it as just as powerful as vanish?

[Kitsun]

Even 2x pt, my rogue has 132 stamina. Hiding immediately does not guarantee a kill after it though, it really is just defensive

[m444w]

we're still screwed if we walk in the room and something casts TD spell at us. This just gives rogues the ability to control a scenario that they create (through Divert, etc). In an ambush. It does not work through stuns, binds, roots, etc... unlike any of the aforementioned status breaking manuevers (nor will it be reliable when the rogue is injured, infront of perceptive creatures which are fairly numerous, or undead), as an upside it allows one to circumnavigate standing around and begging for a roll 1 fumble when we mess up.

It also costs a ridiculous sum of stamina, that is very hard for a rogue to have pre-cap. It is not nearly as unbalanced as it is trying to be made out to be, it merely gives us a unique tool that the rogue profession has needed to fill the void left by the unreliability of stunmans.

[m444w]

Even 2x pt, my rogue has 132 stamina. Hiding immediately does not guarantee a kill after it though, it really is just defensive

I'm a little over 1x at level 63, and I have 97. Base cost of 25+15 for a shieldbash or something and that's almost half my stamina, If I just put up smastery which I will need during cool down I will have a max of 37 stamina (as Smastery costs 60 during cooldown)

[StrayRogue]

Fantastic ideas. Great addition to Silent Strike, Subdue and Cut-Throat. Totally needed, and totally logical.

Vanish - Again, incredible. It's great someone is actually LISTENING to the issues rogues are facing. Being caught in the open in RT by multiple mobs is the key issue a rogue faces, especially at high levels. Divert and Vanish will off-set this. Not totally, but enough.

It's equally incredible to see whom is complaining about something that we're getting. Some people truley are pathetic.

[StrayRogue]

Additionally, for all the people going crazy (sorcerers), you seem to forget how much of a limited resource stamina is. Turning on Smastery and Surge pretty much reduces me to half my stamina BEFORE a hunt even begins. Both CMans drop before my hunt ends, and thus, need refreshing.

It's not like we can, you know, spam our abilities end on end like, oh, you can.

[Fallen]

Additionally, for all the people going crazy (sorcerers), you seem to forget how much of a limited resource stamina is. Turning on Smastery and Surge pretty much reduces me to half my stamina BEFORE a hunt even begins. Both CMans drop before my hunt ends, and thus, need refreshing.

It's not like we can, you know, spam our abilities end on end like, oh, you can.

Mana isn't finite?

I agree that stamina costs are extremely prohibitive when regarding nearly any CMAN use, but having Smastery and Surge up an entire hunt is the equivalent to running Wizard's Shield or Wall of Force for an entire hunt. It is sustainable, but it will most definitely cut into your mana/stamina supply.

In the end, I would feel the ability would be more balanced if it came with an additional 3-5 seconds of hard RT added on to your total when you used the maneuver, or with stealth penalties being implimented heavy armor, which is likely coming already. Oscuro himself said he is still evaluating what types of penalties, if any, he will associate with the maneuver's use. All the same, it is great to see rogues being brought up to par.

[BigWorm]

So if vanish was instead turned into CMAN combat roll, which allowed rogues to move into guarded (not defensive) only in the Rt afforded by attacking/ambushing for 25 stamina, you would see it as just as powerful as vanish?

Stance guarded doesn't help my TD at all which is the main reason I wouldn't want to be stuck in the open. This is much less of a concern for pures. Also it costs 0 stamina/mana/spirit to change stances during casting RT as opposed to the 25 stamina is takes to activate vanish.

[Makkah]

>>What is next? CMAN FIREBALL? CMAN RAISEDEAD?

I can't wait to hear your comments on what the Monk CML looks like.

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I think I shit my pants when I read that. DBZ!!!!

[StrayRogue]

I don't see any stealth penalties coming, at least until light armour is fixed. Mana is pretty much infinite. Consider COL, being able to have mana sent, numerous mana toys, and the low mana cost of most offensive abilities (relatively in relation to total mana pools), mana tends not to be an issue. Currently at 66 I fry with about 180 mana left in reserve (out of 230?). Of course this isn't hunting from belled to full but from muddled more often than not.

[Fallen]

Stance guarded doesn't help my TD at all which is the main reason I wouldn't want to be stuck in the open. This is much less of a concern for pures. Also it costs 0 stamina/mana/spirit to change stances during casting RT as opposed to the 25 stamina is takes to activate vanish.

Very true. Hiding is a far more effective defense than going into defensive. It does cost 0 stamina/mana/spirit to switch stances in cast RT, just as it costs 0 stamina/mana/spirit to swing a weapon.

[Fallen]

I don't see any stealth penalties coming, at least until light armour is fixed. Mana is pretty much infinite. Consider COL, being able to have mana sent, numerous mana toys, and the low mana cost of most offensive abilities (relatively in relation to total mana pools), mana tends not to be an issue. Currently at 66 I fry with about 180 mana left in reserve (out of 230?). Of course this isn't hunting from belled to full but from muddled more often than not.

What other changes do you think they could roll in for light armor that Monks haven't already ganked? Psuedo-TD is the only other ability I can see them attempting to do. Perhaps some form of spelldux.

[StrayRogue]

TD is the tip of the ice-berg when it comes to the benefits of plate over leather.

[Fallen]

>>Oscuro, do you believe an appropriate measure applied to the maneuver would be an additional 3-5 seconds of RT added for the activation of CM Vanish? It would fit that it would take the rogue atleast some time to hide, as it does even under the best of circumstances, and this maneuver is activated under some of the worst. The hide RT of Vanish could be further lessened by having Smastery running.

This was considered during the design process (standard hide RT), but was decided against since it destroys one of the uses of the maneuver, which is a method of marginally speeding up stealth combat.

>>Can any status effect, stat loss, injury, etc other than Slow increase the amount of time it takes to hide? If not, then I would agree that is appropriate. Otherwise, it would make sense for the RT to scale appropriately.

Once you hit a relatively low threshold of Stalk & Hide ranks, the roundtime for hiding is almost guaranteed to be 3 seconds.

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[Cap'nDrak]

Since I haven't seen this brought up, don't forget that Vanish does not negate the RT that the character is experiencing. Therefore, if Roguex has 25 sec. RT and hits Vanish, then that is still 25 secs. + xtime for the maneuver RT. That's not guaranteed safety, because likely you will use this as a panic button, and possibly be prone, or at the very least in stance offensive still in RT. That does jack against a lucky roll or a perceptive critter. Or any number of spells that critters cast that can knock a Rogue from hiding. It's not as unbalancing and game breaking as everyone makes it out to be. You have to read the fine print here.

[Fallen]

Therefore, if Roguex has 25 sec. RT and hits Vanish, then that is still 25 secs. + xtime for the maneuver RT.
The maneuver incurs no additional RT.

[Cap'nDrak]

Need to take my own advice on that one. Slight over sight on my behalf, but in any case with out the additional RT, my point still stands. It's a costly last ditch effort that is by no means sure fire. I imagine you are still subject to the unavoidable failure to get into hiding possibility in any case. That might be a question. Is it a guaranteed hide at mastery, or still a possibility to fail? I see "attempt" in his description.

[Ryvicke]

I just checked out the whole thread on the officials--this is easily V's most entertaining work yet. Completely absurd shit posted rapid fire in enemy territory attacking anyone standing in his way. It's really easy to see why dev GM's stay as quiet as possible.

A very nice Grendeg substitute for a couple hours.

[Fallen]

Need to take my own advice on that one. Slight over sight on my behalf, but in any case with out the additional RT, my point still stands. It's a costly last ditch effort that is by no means sure fire. I imagine you are still subject to the unavoidable failure to get into hiding possibility in any case. That might be a question. Is it a guaranteed hide at mastery, or still a possibility to fail? I see "attempt" in his description.

It is a hide attempt. At the moment they are considering whether or not to add a modifier to the attempt when using vanish. Otherwise, it would be just as if you typed the HIDE command. Of course, this means it will take injuries into account, along with any other mitigating factors against hiding. Unless, of course, they mean they are considering giving a BONUS to hiding when using Vanish. At this point, anything is possible.

[Fallen]

>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you try to vanish.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
H>

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[StrayRogue]

Would have preferred something with a bit more flare (ala WoW), but I'm not complaining!

[Fallen]

"You try to vanish" That sounds weird. I can picture a rogue looking like he is trying not to shit himself, then suddenly disappearing.

[crb]

My thoughts exactly Fallen.

I picture Hiro from Heroes, concentrating real hard, then poof.

Redonkulous.

Rogues are all born of Krypton.

[crb]

Vanish is shocking to me. I'm stunned that they would implement this idea, particularly when no one is going to change their armor choice, whether that decision is implied as opposed to obligatory as I think Oscuro put it. People in GS don't do things because their implied... they do the opposite.

And hiding with virtual certainty with zero RT? This all adds up to some pretty insane abilities for rogues, even if they can't use it on a regular basis. Sure vanish is largely an "oh shit" button, but 25 stamina isn't that much for anyone with a good amount of CM training. Heck, surge with the cooldown penalty costs more than twice as much, (60), and I do that all the time without problems.

I would have rather they replace stunman with this vanishing thing, allowing "vanishing" during a stun instead of during RT. I hate agreeing with Virilneous, but RT has always been a sacred cow in GS. This gets us just about back to the day when rogues killing from hiding was a near 100% certainty, at least at or near cap where they'll have the stamina to use all these tricks regularly.

Kerl, you're obviously just jealous of rogues, no logical person could hold that position. ;p

[crb]

Vanish - Again, incredible. It's great someone is actually LISTENING to the issues rogues are facing. Being caught in the open in RT by multiple mobs is the key issue every profession faces, especially at high levels. Divert and Vanish will off-set this. Not totally, but enough.


I fixed your post for you.

LIke Kerl said, RT has been the sacred cow, now they're sacrificing that heffer.

[StrayRogue]

LIke Kerl said, RT has been the sacred cow, now they're sacrificing that heffer.

You'd be mistaken.

There's a number of instances where RT can be ignored or bypassed.

[Drunken Durfin]

As my main in Shattered will be a rogue, I am very much happy with these changes.

[Fallen]

>>Wow, incredible improvements here Oscuro. I absolutely cannot wait for vanish to try it out! I also love what your doing with silent strike and adding in other skills to be used from hiding, I just wish I could afford to pick those extra skills up now. Ah, choices choices, their really good to have. Though, I do hope you plan to reduce the CMP cost even further of some more cman skills, especially offensive ones like silent strike and cutthroat.

CMP cost reductions for hostile maneuvers are going to be reviewed in the future once we've taken care of some issues with immunities and resistances, which is an ongoing project. Not every hostile maneuver is going to get cheaper, but the least popular ones almost certainly will.

>>I also would love if we could get even 1 new skill added to any of our guild skills. Hrmm..or even replacement! We already have a rgam vanish you know <nudge nudge>. Okay, that would be kind of akward considering it still requires 4 ranks of shadow mastery to use. So instead, maybe add shadow mastery to rogue gambit mastery. If nothing else, perhaps a way that rogue gambits can teach a rogue how to elimate the cool down of shadow mastery if they decide to learn it. Silent strike could be a nice gambit too...err, I'm just going crazy trying to find a way to pick up all these cool skills, hehe.

Moving CMs into guild skills is the wrong direction, IMO, at least for Warriors and Rogues.

>>Will subdual strike or any other skills ever be considered for use from hiding with silent strike? I'd love to see some of our cheapshots added to the list.

AFAIK, Cutthroat and Subdue are the only CMs that require you perform them from hiding and currently drop you out of hiding. Those were the criteria for the Silent Strike synergy.

>>On a side note, a big thanks to you, Oscuro, for all you've done here and done for rogue developement and Gemstone in general.

You're welcome. Rogues have always been dear to my heart and it's been a long time coming for me to see some of my ideas for the profession come to life.

Behind the scenes, GMs Coase, Ildran, Mestys and (previously) Warden have helped a lot in the design.

>>both 1708 and 1720 rocks.

Thanks. I should point out that former GM Warden came up with the concepts - I just did some minor tweaks and coded them.

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[Fallen]

>>Remember this would affect rangers as well rogues. Outside of a few oddities older rangers are strictly in chain, so much so that I think it's the standard for the class and expected when balancing for them. Rangers don't have abilities like parry mastery or evade mastery to help them use lower armour classes more effectively and we already don't have the rogue profession hiding bonus so to make this penalty fair for rogues would probably make it onerous for rangers.

GM Mestys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rangers are expected to be in brig (since that's the highest "natural" armor, which is what their spell 620 applies to), with some variation.

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[Mathari]

I just checked out the whole thread on the officials--this is easily V's most entertaining work yet. Completely absurd shit posted rapid fire in enemy territory attacking anyone standing in his way. It's really easy to see why dev GM's stay as quiet as possible.

A very nice Grendeg substitute for a couple hours.
My favorite part was when he said, "Riddle me this Oscuro!" (https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=28&topic=2&message=4006)

LOLOL

[Mathari]

Also, his basic complaint appears to be this: when you perform an action, you get RT that represents the time taken to perform that action, so allowing a rogue to vanish during that RT is like allowing him to perform the action "half way," stop and vanish, and then continue performing the rest of the original action. All it takes is a little imagination, though, to think of it differently:

From the perspective of the keyboard, sure, it happens that way -- you type CLIMB X, you get RT, then you type CMAN VANISH in the middle of that RT, you hide, and the RT continues. But why can't typing CMAN VANISH have a "retroactive" effect on the "original" action (from the perspective of the keyboard), so that -- now speaking from an IC perspective rather than the perspective of the keyboard -- what really happened was that rogue, in one initial, fluid action, attempted to stealthily climb whatever it was that he climbed, succeeding after the initial few seconds of not hiding (before CMAN VANISH was typed at the keyboard) and remaining hidden for the remainder of the action? Now what is the violation in the laws of physics or whatever that V was complaining about?

[Ausek]

Also, his basic complaint appears to be this: when you perform an action, you get RT that represents the time taken to perform that action, so allowing a rogue to vanish during that RT is like allowing him to perform the action "half way," stop and vanish, and then continue performing the rest of the original action. All it takes is a little imagination, though, to think of it differently:

From the perspective of the keyboard, sure, it happens that way -- you type CLIMB X, you get RT, then you type CMAN VANISH in the middle of that RT, you hide, and the RT continues. But why can't typing CMAN VANISH have a "retroactive" effect on the "original" action (from the perspective of the keyboard), so that -- now speaking from an IC perspective rather than the perspective of the keyboard -- what really happened was that rogue, in one initial, fluid action, attempted to stealthily climb whatever it was that he climbed, succeeding after the initial few seconds of not hiding (before CMAN VANISH was typed at the keyboard) and remaining hidden for the remainder of the action? Now what is the violation in the laws of physics or whatever that V was complaining about?

This is exactly what I see happening, too. To use your example, it's as though a rogue is climbing up a rockslide, peers over the top edge and sees something that he doesn't want to bother getting hit by while not having a weapon prepared so he remains low for the rest of the climb and "sneaks" up into position where he can prepare himself adequately.

What V is arguing sounds like you are not able to do ANYTHING while in RT (though it sounds more like he is confusing RT with Stuns). If that were so then you wouldn't be able to look or make any other commands work, such as yell, peer, or even talk. This is where I am on the fence about it not adding more RT, even if it would just be a second or two because you are, in fact, deviating from what you originally intended.

As it stands, and even if it had RT added for using it, I absolutely love the idea of Vanish. I already cap doubles, and will continue to use them (or no armor), instead of plate.

[Ryvicke]

This is exactly what I see happening, too. To use your example, it's as though a rogue is climbing up a rockslide, peers over the top edge and sees something that he doesn't want to bother getting hit by while not having a weapon prepared so he remains low for the rest of the climb and "sneaks" up into position where he can prepare himself adequately.

What V is arguing sounds like you are not able to do ANYTHING while in RT (though it sounds more like he is confusing RT with Stuns). If that were so then you wouldn't be able to look or make any other commands work, such as yell, peer, or even talk. This is where I am on the fence about it not adding more RT, even if it would just be a second or two because you are, in fact, deviating from what you originally intended.

As it stands, and even if it had RT added for using it, I absolutely love the idea of Vanish. I already cap doubles, and will continue to use them (or no armor), instead of plate.

I guess to me, it makes sense with the stamina exertion. Stamina is a finite supply of physical energy, expending it can help a Rogue to have some sort of reflexive and intrinsic "HIDE" instinct that allows them to hide while completing another action.

I don't even play a rogue, but I've hunted with enough to know that there are so many 'oh shit' moments to being a Rogue (especially one out of plate) that any help (even one that's as stamina-heavy as this would be) is going to be good.

[DaCapn]

Damn guys, he already infected that discussion with his drivel, does it need to leak into here too? It was actually a pretty disruptive thing to do. There's a preview for some changes and he buries or blocks any constructive discussion with Oscuro by rapid-firing about some minutia that's barely valid. There's some useful opinions totally buried in there that few people are actually reading.

These are some cool changes. Personally, I'm more glad to see the changes to smastery (still a far cry from where it should be in my opinion), subdue (now there's actually a reason to use it), and cutthroat. I only wish he would move away from the CM system some. In my opinion, you get spread too thin between persistent and offensive maneuvers (or between various persistent maneuvers since they're usually much more expensive). I'd like to see more stuff along the lines of armor specialization. For instance, take rogue-ish cmans and change them to "ambush maneuvers" and you buy them with an ambush point system.

A model like this can be extended to hide and many other skills:
(1) Get rid of shadow mastery
(2) Make a hide specialization system (very similar to armor specialization in terms of cost and use)
(3) Train in hide specializations:
.....(3a) Rapid stealth (RT-reducing)
.....(3b) Stealth mastery (Hide bonus)
.....(3c) Others?

Why is the shadow mastery "combat maneuver" even grouped with, say, the feint combat maneuver in the first place?

EDIT: (Forgot to add) If people think that's too overpowered, give a stamina penalty while a hide specialization is active. Reduce the max stamina by 10% per rank in the skill or something and that can account for the continuous exertion. Some hypothetical result here could be that 3 ranks of rapid stealth and stealth mastery result in the equivalent of smastery. That would mean you'd be rolling around with 40% of your usual stamina (also affecting stamina regen). For me this would account for a loss of about 60 stamina.

[Fallen]

>>Any chance of making all these new Cmans part of a new stealth system instead? Add points like combat maneuvers does, except you get the points by training hide/sneak.

>>I think these changes are great.. except one thing. I simply don't have enough combat maneuver points to train ANY of them. So all these changes are pretty much useless.

No. These are intentionally meant to provide a choice. We're trying to give maneuvers like Weapon Specialization and Surge of Strength runs for their money.

I hope to be adding even more maneuvers later, ones that I wish my Rogue would be able to have, too, but we just won't be able to train in all the "good" ones. Variations in training within the profession so that no two Rogues look alike is the goal. As it stands, many Rogues have similar, if not identical, CMs trained.

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[Asha]

sigh ~ The reason most rogues have similar, if not identical CMs is because they work really well.

Time to change everything then :/

[SpiffyJr]

sigh ~ The reason most rogues have similar, if not identical CMs is because they work really well.

Time to change everything then :/

I'm a big fan of not having a cookie cutter build. In an ideal world you should be able to diversify and be as effective as any other build (within reason, of course). It's the primary reason I play mutants - I don't want to be like everyone else.

[TheLastShamurai]

Variations in training within the profession so that no two Rogues look alike is the goal. As it stands, many Rogues have similar, if not identical, CMs trained.

Can someone do this for Paladins? Please? :(

[Fallen]

>>Oscuro, the new CMAN ideas sound very interesting. Could you give us an example of how you picture these new CMANs would be used? Take, f.ex., a level 50 rogue who knows 8 spells and is 1x in PhF, 1x in CM and fully trained in Shadow Mastery. How do you envision such a rogue using Silent Strike or Vanish in terms of stamina cost and such?

As stamina allows. I don't expect someone with a low stamina pool to be running Shadow Mastery during its cooldown. Silent Strike is useful when there are a few creatures in the room, or if you can't wait until the thing you're fighting to act before you swing. Vanish is both meant as a means to get into hiding and strike immediately or as a way to hide when you're in a dangerous situation. Their stamina costs are meant to only allow them to be used a little more than once a minute low levels.

If you're ever hurting for more stamina, you can train in PF to get more and there are stamina potions available from alchemists.

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[StrayRogue]

Rogue/Empath teams are going to be the shit.

[Fallen]

>>Is it under consideration to have a settable flag for vanish that would allow us to automatically attempt to vanish by using the HIDE verb in roundtime (the appropriate amount of RT based on your vanish skill)?

No. I really can't see this being a desirable scenario since it's very likely to waste stamina when you just want to normally hide. It's not hard to set a macro for vanish.

>>What happens if you try to vanish but fail to hide? If you're spamming the command, will it just blast through your stamina until you pop or will there be some sort of delay between vanish attempts?

Yes, you'll lose stamina for each attempt.

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[Fallen]

>>I didn't notice if it was mentioned or not, but it should be executable as effectively in a defensive stance as it would be in an offensive stance (read; Dirtkick'esque).

It's not stance dependent. So, yes, it's like Dirtkick in that respect.

>>What checks were you thinking about, Oscuro?

Vanish's hide check is identical to that of the HIDE verb. However, there's a slight to moderate penalty because you're moving to hiding as fast as possible. The penalty is reduced by extra ranks in Vanish and lighter armor group.

>>First, messaging.

I changed it to this...

>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
H>

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
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*
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[Gibreficul]

Rogue/Empath teams are going to be the shit.

My rogue/empath team does alright now.