I fail at padding math

[Iamnaeth]

Hey guys, i wanted to better understand how much my padding was helping...luckily i got popped just a few minutes ago so...

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +201
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.

On my arms, legs, and head i have HCP on my chest I have VHCP. On the second swing, i was already stunned.

[Celephais]

ASG 11 vs Mace
DF = 0.225
Crit Divisor = 7

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +201
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.

Endroll Advantage = 101
Crit Rank Message = 3
Raw Damage = 0.225 * 101 = 22.725
UnPadded Crit Rank = 22.725 / 7 = 3.24

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.
Endroll Advantage = 102
Crit Rank Message = 4
Raw Damage = 0.225 * 102 = 22.95
UnPadded Crit Rank = 22.95 / 7 = 3.27

Better ask for a refund.

[Latrinsorm]

Is he in scale, though? It looks to me like he's in robes and the n'ecare or its weapon has some damage weighting.

[Latrinsorm]

To expound further - there is definitely some damage weighting involved, which makes it impossible to tell you exactly what would have happened without crit padding. Because your character probably also has natural crit padding, even without the damage weighting you are not going to be able to obtain an exact answer.

If you are in robes, as I suspect, you would have been subject to around a rank 9 crit maximum without the padding and around a rank 7 maximum with it, hence a rank 3 and rank 4 crit received.

[Iamnaeth]

Sorry, guess I should post some additional details.
Wizard so no redux
VHCP robes on chest
HCP accessories on arms, neck, head, and legs

[Drew]

Sorry, guess I should post some additional details.
Wizard so no redux
VHCP robes on chest
HCP accessories on arms, neck, head, and legs


Woof. You don't understand how the crit padding system works (it's complicated don't feel bad). Here's a really easy way to improve your protection: take off all your accessories. You'll be VHCP everywhere. On the plus side you can probably sell all the accessories you don't need for some good coin.

[Celephais]

Yeah, he didn't mention his ASG, although I thought if you had VHCP chest armor, even robes, it'd be VHCP everywhere. With AvD of 31 he could also be in Full leather... again doesn't all add up. I don't have access to all my crit table data at the moment so I don't know the crit damage from the respective messages (30 seems a bit high for a rank 3 arm crit, so i'm starting to see robes as making more sense). Either way, the VHCP vs HCP doesn't appear to be making a noticable difference in these two cases, thanks to randomization.


ASG 1 vs Mace
DF = 0.4
Crit Divisor = 5

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +201
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.
Endroll Advantage = 101
Crit Rank Message = 3 (12 dmg)
Raw Damage = 0.4 * 101 = 40.4
UnPadded Crit Rank = 40.4 / 5 = 8.08

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.
Endroll Advantage = 102
Crit Rank Message = 4 (25 dmg)
Raw Damage = 0.4 * 102 = 40.8
UnPadded Crit Rank = 40.8 / 5 = 8.16

ASG 6 vs Mace
DF = 0.3
Crit Divisor = 6

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +201
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.
Endroll Advantage = 101
Crit Rank Message = 3 (22 dmg)
Raw Damage = 0.3 * 101 = 30.3
UnPadded Crit Rank = 30.3 / 6 = 5.05

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.
Endroll Advantage = 102
Crit Rank Message = 4 (35 dmg)
Raw Damage = 0.3 * 102 = 30.6
UnPadded Crit Rank = 30.6 / 6 = 5.1

[Drew]

Either way, the VHCP vs HCP doesn't appear to be making a noticable difference in these two cases, thanks to randomization.

Actually because of the way the accessory system works on all the locations he is wearing them he is only getting 6 points of padding. That's why I said it's better for him to take them all off.

[StrayRogue]

On a related note, how much padding does the AG add to things and for how many points?

[Celephais]

Actually because of the way the accessory system works on all the locations he is wearing them he is only getting 6 points of padding. That's why I said it's better for him to take them all off.
I wrote that before I saw he was wearing a boatload of accessories, yeah they're not helping him. My point was more that the VHCP vs MongrelPadding doesn't have much of an impact in the very small sample thanks to randomization (his chest actually reduced the crit less).

[Celephais]

On a related note, how much padding does the AG add to things and for how many points?
I thought it was damage padding only. How much I don't know.

[Drew]

On a related note, how much padding does the AG add to things and for how many points?

Heavy crit padding. 10 points. Costs 4000 PPs for 4x armour. Add another 500 PPs for each enchant beyond that.

[Latrinsorm]

Also, Celephais, the crit divisor for robes is 5 (not 3).

[Celephais]

Also, Celephais, the crit divisor for robes is 5 (not 3).
While I believe you, as even w/ VHCP and crit randomization if it were 3 he wouldn't have gotten the ranks he got, it seems my source is outdated. Was this a change they made? (Krakii shows 5/6 whereas QRS shows 3/5, I'm going to go w/ Krakii and update my post)

[Riltus]

1. You get VHCP on all areas, if the accessories have the same type of padding as the torso armor, which in this case they do. So, VHCP everywhere.

2. Armor group crit divisors are: 5/6/7/9/11

3. Latrinsorm has it right that there is most likely damage weighting involved.

4. There is no mechanical advantage to wearing the accessories. They are basically fluff that add extra weight toward encumbrance. If, however, you wear them to enhance your character's appearance and can tolerate their weight then there is no other disadvantage to keeping them on.

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +201
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!

Raw damage: 40 (.400 * 101)
Crit damage: 8 (rank 3 crush)
Damage weighting: 4 points
Total damage: 52
Robes crit divisor: 5
Max crit rank: 8 (40/5)
Actual crit rank: 3

The minimum crit rank reduction from the padding is 1. With no padding the minimum crit rank after randomization is a rank 4. The actual crit rank reduction is unknown for two reasons. Both the crit padding and crit rank randomize.


A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.

Raw damage: 41 (.400 * 102)
Crit damage: 20 (rank 4 crush)
Damage weighting: 4 points
Total damage: 65
Robes crit divisor: 5
Max crit rank: 8 (41/5)
Actual crit rank: 4

The crit rank reduction cannot be determined for this hit.

Mark

[waywardgs]

Heavy crit padding. 10 points. Costs 4000 PPs for 4x armour. Add another 500 PPs for each enchant beyond that.

Think he meant the temp padding from the AG? Can't recall off the top of my head how many bp's it is, but it doesn't last very long.

[Sam]

Heavy crit padding. 10 points. Costs 4000 PPs for 4x armour. Add another 500 PPs for each enchant beyond that.

The AG only does HDP I believe... good for like 50 hits.

[Latrinsorm]

While I believe you, as even w/ VHCP and crit randomization if it were 3 he wouldn't have gotten the ranks he got, it seems my source is outdated. Was this a change they made? (Krakii shows 5/6 whereas QRS shows 3/5, I'm going to go w/ Krakii and update my post)Here is what I know about crit divisor history. In the beginning, it was 5 for everything. It is currently 5/6/etc. There was a period when at least some people thought it was 3/5/7/etc for creatures and 5/6/7/etc for player characters, but around the III/IV switch the theory fell into disfavor and/or the crit divisors were unified. I have also seen 5/6/7/8/9 cited (with and without the creatures/PCs distinction).

[Ryvicke]

Adventurer's Guild gives somewhat and heavy damage padding. BPs is dependent on the armor. You can get a quote from the treasure master.

[phantasm]

What would these hits have looked like if he was wearing VHCP LBP instead of the robes.

[Celephais]

Here is what I know about crit divisor history. In the beginning, it was 5 for everything. It is currently 5/6/etc. There was a period when at least some people thought it was 3/5/7/etc for creatures and 5/6/7/etc for player characters, but around the III/IV switch the theory fell into disfavor and/or the crit divisors were unified. I have also seen 5/6/7/8/9 cited (with and without the creatures/PCs distinction).
Just to be clear, the current Krakii version is 5/6/7/9/11. (Just clearing up the etcs listed).

[Celephais]

What would these hits have looked like if he was wearing VHCP LBP instead of the robes.
My original numbers were with ASG 11 (Scale), which for the purpose of the chest hit is the same as LBP (Between the arm being Half VHCP and cloth, I will avoid drawing conclusions against two variables)


ASG 11 vs Mace
DF = 0.225
Crit Divisor = 7
...
A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.
Endroll Advantage = 102
Crit Rank Message = 4
Raw Damage = 0.225 * 102 = 22.95
UnPadded Crit Rank = 22.95 / 7 = 3.27



ASG 1 vs Mace
DF = 0.4
Crit Divisor = 5

A n'ecare swings a heavy flanged mace at you!
AS: +505 vs DS: +384 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +50 = +202
... and hits for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from your back, muscles exposed.
Endroll Advantage = 102
Crit Rank Message = 4 (25 dmg)
Raw Damage = 0.4 * 102 = 40.8
UnPadded Crit Rank = 40.8 / 5 = 8.16

I'm not 100% sure I'm doing this right, but this is what my understanding of how padding works and is applied.

Since his crit padding reduced the raw damage by >10 (12?) to around 28, with a crit rank of 5.6, which is truncated/randomized down to Crit rank 4, we'll apply the same numbers to the raw 22.95 scale damage, or 10 / 5 = rank 2, randomization ~ 1 or 2, reducing the total damage from 65 to about 30-35.

I'm not so sure on my numbers as far as how much padding reduces the phantom damage.

[crb]

1. You get VHCP on all areas, if the accessories have the same type of padding as the torso armor, which in this case they do. So, VHCP everywhere.



You sure... I believe GMs have said that if the accessory has better padding, it gets counted, but I don't believe they've said if the opposite is true.

[Izzy]

You sure... I believe GMs have said that if the accessory has better padding, it gets counted, but I don't believe they've said if the opposite is true.

I'm pretty sure it's stated as the better of the two, whichever it may be.

Edit (I just took the relevant part of the post):


Per Krakiipedia:
Padding + Padding (Similar) : Armor accessories with padding types similar to the armor they cover result in the area having padding equal to the highest rank between the two. e.g. Masterfully critical padded leg greaves worn with heavily critical padded hauberk results in masterful critical padding of the legs.

[Iamnaeth]

Wow, who knew I would start such a discussion. Just for my own clarification.

You carefully inspect your black linen robes.

Your careful inspection of some faintly charred deep black linen robes woven through with fine crimson threading allows you to conclude that it is cloth armor that covers the torso only.

You determine that you could wear the robes around your chest. The robes appears to serve some purpose.

You remember that you registered this item a few months ago.

It looks like this item has been mainly crafted out of cloth.


So, even though robes ONLY covers chest according to the item and on play.net, I get VHCP on my neck, arms, and legs as well? That doesn't seem to make sense to me, hence the reason I put on a greathelm, and arm and leg accessories.

[StrayRogue]

Well usually partial armors cover the various body parts only (like head, chest, whatever), and you get the next AsG down for your remaining bodyparts. So for MBP you'll get plate protection on your torso, and chain protection everywhere else.

[Iamnaeth]

So it's VHCP robes on the chest and VHCP clothes on the arms, legs, neck and head?

[StrayRogue]

Robes = clothes (IIRC).

[Celephais]

That doesn't seem to make sense to me
*tsk tsk tsk*

[Iamnaeth]

What if I wore off the shelf armor accessories with no abilities whatsover. Do I get VHCP everywhere then?

[Fallen]

What if I wore off the shelf armor accessories with no abilities whatsover. Do I get VHCP everywhere then?

You get padding everywhere even if your armor does not cover that area. It is only the armor type that is effected by coverage, though certain types of accessories CAN mess with your padding. Bottom line, ditch the accessories and you will be better off.

[Celephais]

You get padding everywhere even if your armor does not cover that area. It is only the armor type that is effected by coverage, though certain types of accessories CAN mess with your padding. Bottom line, ditch the accessories and you will be better off.
And by armor type he means crit divisor, robes are weird in that there isn't a tier below robes, so it doesn't matter, but if you wear VHCP LBP you get scale DF everywhere, scale crit divisor on chest, and leather crit divisor everywhere else, with VHCP on the chest and VHCP everywhere else, UNLESS you have an accessory that messes with the VHCP.

[Riltus]

Descriptively, robes are not considered armor, but mechanically they have the Armor Group I (AsG 2 ) classification. Although they share the same crit divisor, AvD, damage factors, action penalty and spell hindrance as normal clothing, they can be enchanted, lightened, padded, flared, spiked etc.

Once they are enchanted they will improve TD by lowering the CvA from 25 to 15.

Mark



Armor Accessory & Padding Changes - REVISIONS Release Date: 5/31/2005
GS4-RELEASES: This information regards a new system or software release in GemStone IV.
General Info: In response to player concerns, we have modified our previous changes to the padding system:

Padded partial armor has been restored to allow its padding to give full protection to partially covered areas by default. If an armor accessory with the same type of padding is worn over top of either full coverage or partial armor, then only the highest level of padding will apply. For example, lightly damage padded full plate in combination with a heavily damage padded helm would result in heavy damage padding on hits to the head and light damage padding on every other type of hit.

If padded armor is combined with specially enhanced armor accessories (or vice versa), then the previously announced system of averaging bonuses will continue to be used. Specially enhanced armor includes: differing types of padding (i.e. combining damage and critical padding on a hit location), armor that is resistant to specific damage types, blessed armor, TD enhancing armor, flaring armor, and spiked armor.

[Iamnaeth]

Here's a couple more hits for you...fortunately these were all in my chest area.

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +491 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +58 = +193
... and hits for 67 points of damage!
You are knocked back several feet by a blow to the abdomen.
You are stunned for 5 rounds!

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +503 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +99 = +251
... and hits for 133 points of damage!
Massive blow punches a hole through what used to be your chest!

Should I just go to platemail? haha Seriously how would this be different in fulls or LBP?

[Fallen]

Should I just go to platemail? haha Seriously how would this be different in fulls or LBP?

With higher armor classes you get better AvD (against physical weapons), CvA(Against Warding spells), Damage Factors, and Crit Divisors. The trade off is you require more Armor Ranks to drop down the penalties of armor, and after a point, a pure is unable to obtain enough armor ranks to bring these penalties to their minimum.

LBP is the best for any pure looking for the most protection while still being able to minimize the penalties. You can go into partial coverage armors in that same class, but you get less bang for your buck. The exception to this rule are empaths and clerics, who have insano hindrance levels, and can effectively wear chain. Sorcerers and Wizards should stick with LBP to minimize hindrance.

For specific information on Damage Factors and Crit Divisors, I would ask someone else or read Krakiipedia/Officials.

[DaCapn]

4. There is no mechanical advantage to wearing the accessories. They are basically fluff that add extra weight toward encumbrance. If, however, you wear them to enhance your character's appearance and can tolerate their weight then there is no other disadvantage to keeping them on.

Not really the main point of the thread but that statement is incorrect. Armor accessories behave like normal armor with respect to encumbrance. If they are underweight, that weight is subtracted from your encumbrance (even when worn in conjunction with other armor, full coverage or otherwise). I tested this recently with some imflass greaves.

EDIT: I'm wrong, racial encumbrance factors, see Riltus take me to school in the next post (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=1096120&postcount=37)

[Riltus]

Not really the main point of the thread but that statement is incorrect. Armor accessories behave like normal armor with respect to encumbrance. If they are underweight, that weight is subtracted from your encumbrance (even when worn in conjunction with other armor, full coverage or otherwise). I tested this recently with some imflass greaves.

This is inaccurate. All armor accessories add weight toward encumbrance regardless of the item's material composition.

What you probably noticed was a reduction in encumbrance with a race, lighter than human, when the greaves were worn. What I suspect you did was, have the item in hand, check encumbrance, and then don the item, which resulted in extra carrying capacity.

The weight of armor accessories are, when worn, modified by the racial encumbrance factors. A 5 lb helm when carried by a halfling will only add 2.5 lbs (5 * .5) of encumbrance when worn. In fact for half krolvin and giantman races there is an increase to their encumbrance when donning the item. That same 5 lb helm (material notwithstanding) when worn by a giantman will count as 6.65 lbs toward encumbrance. (5 * 1.33).

Halfling encumbrance factor: .5
Giantman encumbrance factor: 1.33


Mark

[Latrinsorm]

Here's a couple more hits for you...fortunately these were all in my chest area.

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +491 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +58 = +193
... and hits for 67 points of damage!
You are knocked back several feet by a blow to the abdomen.
You are stunned for 5 rounds!

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +503 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +99 = +251
... and hits for 133 points of damage!
Massive blow punches a hole through what used to be your chest!

Should I just go to platemail? haha Seriously how would this be different in fulls or LBP?Armor choice isn't really the problem. Your DS strikes me as unusually low - a 251 endroll means you'd get hit on any d100, which is a situation you should be in only very rarely. Even in LBP the death crit would be good for 38 raw damage, rank 7 max before padding/weighting, definitely a stun, probably dead anyway.

[DaCapn]

What you probably noticed was a reduction in encumbrance with a race, lighter than human, when the greaves were worn. What I suspect you did was, have the item in hand, check encumbrance, and then don the item, which resulted in extra carrying capacity.

You're right. Just tried it with a giant. Amazing. I had seen you post the racial encumbrance factors elsewhere, too. Thanks.

[Iamnaeth]

Armor choice isn't really the problem. Your DS strikes me as unusually low - a 251 endroll means you'd get hit on any d100, which is a situation you should be in only very rarely. Even in LBP the death crit would be good for 38 raw damage, rank 7 max before padding/weighting, definitely a stun, probably dead anyway.

I was tackled, in offensive, with 5 critters in the room. Normally in offensive i'm around 460-480

[Deathravin]

I was tackled, in offensive, with 5 critters in the room. Normally in offensive i'm around 460-480

Sounds like you should fix your script ;)

[Iamnaeth]

Sounds like you should fix your script ;)

Lol, no script. I was trying to be rambo with rapidfire and 906.

[Drew]

Lol, no script. I was trying to be rambo with rapidfire and 906.

Personally I would use 908 for splashes.

[Riltus]

The second hit (below) puzzles me. I wouldn't have expected a rank 8 crit result with VHC padding unless the weapon is crit weighted. The description 'wickedly curved' indicates that it is, but I don't have any direct knowledge of this. Anyone know for sure?

What is also interesting is that our fundamental understanding of how crit padding reduces phantom damage is not complete. It makes no sense to me that the crit padding points are simply subtracted from the calculated raw damage without a raw damage cap.

If there was no cap, the value of crit padding would quickly diminish to zero for raw damage values above the rank 9 crit threshold.

Mark


Here's a couple more hits for you...fortunately these were all in my chest area.

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +491 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +58 = +193
... and hits for 67 points of damage!
You are knocked back several feet by a blow to the abdomen.
You are stunned for 5 rounds!

A n'ecare glows with an ice blue light!
A n'ecare swings a wickedly curved falchion at you!
AS: +503 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +99 = +251
... and hits for 133 points of damage!
Massive blow punches a hole through what used to be your chest!

Should I just go to platemail? haha Seriously how would this be different in fulls or LBP?

[Latrinsorm]

What is also interesting is that our fundamental understanding of how crit padding reduces phantom damage is not complete. It makes no sense to me that the crit padding points are simply subtracted from the calculated raw damage without a raw damage cap.

If there was no cap, the value of crit padding would quickly diminish to zero for raw damage values above the rank 9 crit threshold.I don't get why this troubles you. The only feasible cases where crit padding would be useless due to this relate to pures, and they are designed not to be subjected to the kind of endrolls you're considering.

[Riltus]

I don't get why this troubles you. The only feasible cases where crit padding would be useless due to this relate to pures, and they are designed not to be subjected to the kind of endrolls you're considering.

Hey, you're probably right. Just wishful thinking on my part.

A bit off topic but I was able to confirm to a limited extent the Dex bonus crit weighting of 1 point per 4 Dex bonus. The character I used has a 35 Dex bonus trunc(35 / 4 = 8) which did, in fact, add 8 points of weighting to each attack. The weighting is non-randomized. The full weighting is added to each attack just as other crit weapon weighting.

Here's two examples that demonstrate the 8 points of weighting.

You swing a closed fist at a hobgoblin!
AS: +206 vs DS: +23 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +25 = +228
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Internal organs bruised.
The hobgoblin is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

DF: .075
Raw: 10
Weighting: 8
Raw + Weighting: 18
Armor crit divisor: 6
Crit: Rank 3 abdomen

You swing a closed fist at a hobgoblin!
AS: +206 vs DS: +52 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +63 = +237
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
You ripped a chunk out of the hobgoblin's right leg with that one.
The hobgoblin is stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

DF: .075
Raw: 10
Weighting: 8
Raw + Weighting: 18
Armor crit divisor: 6 (they wear light leather but have arm and leg greave accessories added)
Crit: Rank 3 right leg


In both attacks a minimum of 8 points of weighting are necessary to achieve the rank 3 crits.

I also have results that limit the weighting to a maximum of 8 points.

Raw damage: 9
Crit weighting: 8
Raw + crit: 17
Crit divisor: 6
Crit rank: 1

In this attack 9 points of weighting would have caused a minimum rank 2 crit.

Mark

[Latrinsorm]

A bit off topic but I was able to confirm to a limited extent the Dex bonus crit weighting of 1 point per 4 Dex bonus.Sweet! Now someone can feasibly test whether crit weightings of various types stack or not.

[Deathravin]

Wasn't there a weighting/padding calc script for Lich?

[Drew]

Sweet! Now someone can feasibly test whether crit weightings of various types stack or not.

The thought being that if you use a crit weighted weapon you might lose your normal dex bonus?

[Latrinsorm]

Or if they interact in some weird 1/2 of the lowest plus the higher way, or whatever. There's also GoS weighting to consider, which IIRC we've been told stacks directly, but who knows? GMs have been incorrect, bugs have existed, and so on.

[Riltus]

Sweet! Now someone can feasibly test whether crit weightings of various types stack or not.

The results below seem to indicate that there is level component associated with the dex bonus crit weighting. Also, with the limited testing I did, it appears that dex bonus weighting does not stack with weapon crit weighting, or, if it does, there is some limitation.

The level component may be either attacker vs. defender, or there may be a minimum level requirement before it activates. I couldn't find any dex bonus weighting with the level 4 character with or without a weighted weapon vs. level 1 critters.

LEVEL 4 CHARACTER (crit weighted weapon)

You swing a dull claidhmore at a giant ant!
AS: +40 vs DS: +15 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +59 = +118
... and hit for 19 points of damage!
Blow to back cracks several vertebrae.
The giant ant falls to the ground and dies, its feelers twitching.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

In this hit even 1 point of Dex bonus weighting would have raised the minimum crit rank to 3. The raw damage + weapon weighting is 29 with a crit divisor of 6.

DF: .475
Raw damage: 9
Armor: full leather
Armor crit divisor: 6
DEX weighting: 6
Weapon weighting: 20
Total theoretical weighting (weapon + dex): 26
Raw damage + weighting: 35
Minimum theoretical crit rank with dex weighting: 3
Actual crit rank: 2

LEVEL 4 CHARACTER (non-weighted weapon)

You swing a battle axe at a giant ant!
AS: +50 vs DS: +15 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +63 = +136
... and hit for 20 points of damage!
Weak slash to the giant ant's lower back!

This attack also shows that even 1 point of dex weighting would have caused a minimum rank 2 crit.

DF: .475
Raw damage: 17
Armor: full leather
Crit divisor: 6
Dex weighting: 6 (26 dex bonus/4)
Theoretical minimum crit rank with 1 point of dex weighting: 2
Actual crit rank: 1

-----------------

LEVEL 26 CHARACTER (weighted weapon)

You swing a dull claidhmore at a giant ant!
AS: +50 vs DS: +27 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +60 = +117
... and hit for 15 points of damage!
Bones in left arm crack.

In this hit the maximum Dex bonus weighting that could possibly have been added as phantom damage is 1 point.

DF: .475
Raw damage: 8
Armor: full leather
armor crit divisor: 6 (arm hit)
weapon crit weighting: 20
Dex bonus weighting: 4 (18 bonus/4)
Raw + weighting: 32 (8 + 20 + 4)
Minimum theoretical crit rank with weighting: 3
Actual crit rank: 2

LEVEL 26 CHARACTER (non-weighted weapon)

You swing a closed fist at a giant ant!
AS: +211 vs DS: +25 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +41 = +246
... and hit for 26 points of damage!
You ripped a chunk out of the giant ant's left leg with that one.
The giant ant falls to the ground and dies, its feelers twitching.

In this hit the full dex bonus weighting is included as phantom damage. The actual crit was a rank 3. Anything less than full dex bonus weighting would have been a rank 2 crit.

DF: .075
Raw damage: 11
Armor: full leather
armor crit divisor: 5 (leg hit)
Dex bonus weighting: 4 (18 bonus/4)
Raw + weighting: 15
Maximum theoretical crit without Dex weighting: 2 (11/5)
Actual crit rank: 3 (15/5)

Mark

[Riltus]

Well, it's not an issue with level vs. level. The dex weighting is added with attacks by a level 12 character vs. a level 12 critter.

You swing a dark vultite talon sword at a giant marmot!
AS: +176 vs DS: +112 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +73 = +170
... and hit for 33 points of damage!
Strong slash to throat nicks a few blood vessels.
The giant marmot is stunned!

Without dex weighting this attack would be a maximum rank 3 crit.

DF: .300
Raw damage: 21
Crit divisor: 6
Dex bonus weighting: 4 (17/4)
Maximum crit rank with raw damage only: 3 trunc(21/6)
Actual crit rank: 4

Mark