Pontificating prosecution of the pope for protecting pedophile priests.

[Back]

Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece)
Marc Horne, TimesOnline.com


RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain “for crimes against humanity”.

Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.

The Pope was embroiled in new controversy this weekend over a letter he signed arguing that the “good of the universal church” should be considered against the defrocking of an American priest who committed sex offences against two boys. It was dated 1985, when he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which deals with sex abuse cases.

Dawkins and Hitchens believe the Pope would be unable to claim diplomatic immunity from arrest because, although his tour is categorised as a state visit, he is not the head of a state recognised by the United Nations.

They have commissioned the barrister Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens, a solicitor, to present a justification for legal action.

The lawyers believe they can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope, launch their own civil action against him or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, said: “This is a man whose first instinct when his priests are caught with their pants down is to cover up the scandal and damn the young victims to silence.”

Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, said: “This man is not above or outside the law. The institutionalised concealment of child rape is a crime under any law and demands not private ceremonies of repentance or church-funded payoffs, but justice and punishment.”

------------------------------------------------

By all means, lock up those pedo-basterds.

[radamanthys]

A metric fuckton of people would be really fuckin' pissed.

[waywardgs]

A metric fuckton of people would be really fuckin' pissed.

They SHOULD be pissed that their priests like to diddle boys.

[TheEschaton]

Your douchey title denied any merit the actual article, written by non-douchebags, might have.

[Back]

Your douchey title denied any merit the actual article, written by non-douchebags, might have.

No legal opinion here? Disappointing.

[Tisket]

If his interest is in a stable, unified church, he could resign. Papal resignation isn't a new concept.

No comment on the ridiculousness of the OP's title or on the article though.

[radamanthys]

They SHOULD be pissed that their priests like to diddle boys.

In an ideal world, sure. Every group would self-police themselves and there'd be no institutional wrongdoing. Governments and corporations everywhere would be infallibly ethical. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way.

Police departments, Bankers, Community Organizers, Political parties, Air traffic controllers- the list goes on. Groups of people overlook the wrongdoings in their memberships in order to further the cause of their group. Religion isn't immune- in fact, religious people tend to trust their members even over the norm. "You can trust him, he's a Good Christian man".

That said, there's millions and millions of catholics in the world. You think that the most zealous (say, hispanics in the US- a quite Catholic group) will be pleased that the pope, the infallable head of the Catholic order, is being put to justice by some arbitrary foreign court of man? Fuck no, they're not gonna be pleased. They're gonna be pissed as fuck. Perhaps violently so.

I can't decide if it's worth it. To those who are just as zealously anti-religion, I'm sure it seems like a good idea.

[Tisket]

rada, being Catholic does not silence one's individual opinions nor does it mean mindlessly endorsing the party line.

What's happened is a fucking disgrace.

[TheEschaton]

The Pope is not infallible. He has the ability to speak infallibly, but that's only ever been invoked twice.

Back, if you want a legal opinion, go somewhere else, since I don't know British law, and I don't think anyone on these boards can speak to it.

If you want my personal opinion, as a Catholic, I'd say that he should resign, and that the Church, as a whole, should move away from covering up "sin amongst the clergy" to maintain their instutional authority. It's fascist. However, arresting him goes beyond reasonable behavior. Where were Mssrs. Dawkins and Hitchens to arrest Mr. Bush, who has arguably commited far more "crimes against humanity" than this Pope? They're doing it for publicity, in their attempt as prominent atheists to continue to discredit belief in God.

-TheE-

[radamanthys]

rada, being Catholic does not silence one's individual opinions nor does it mean mindlessly endorsing the party line.

What's happened is a fucking disgrace.

Oh, I know. It's not everyone. I'm not saying that this is attributable to every Catholic. All I'm saying is that there will be some very pissed off people if Dawkins succeeds.

[TheEschaton]

P.S. Even if Britain doesn't recognize the Vatican as a nation-state, and the Pope as the head of it, most of the world does, including, I believe, the U.S. Arresting a head of state and charging him with crimes in a non-international setting would trigger all sorts of international uproar.

[Tisket]

Religion isn't immune- in fact, religious people tend to trust their members even over the norm. "You can trust him, he's a Good Christian man".

I would never allow my son to be alone with our priest, even though I like and trust the man. But here's the thing, I don't trust ANYONE alone with my son, no matter how stellar a person I think they might be.

You've got to quit generalising so much.

[radamanthys]

The Pope is not infallible. He has the ability to speak infallibly, but that's only ever been invoked twice.

Back, if you want a legal opinion, go somewhere else, since I don't know British law, and I don't think anyone on these boards can speak to it.

If you want my personal opinion, as a Catholic, I'd say that he should resign, and that the Church, as a whole, should move away from covering up "sin amongst the clergy" to maintain their instutional authority. It's fascist. However, arresting him goes beyond reasonable behavior. Where were Mssrs. Dawkins and Hitchens to arrest Mr. Bush, who has arguably commited far more "crimes against humanity" than this Pope? They're doing it for publicity, in their attempt as prominent atheists to continue to discredit belief in God.

-TheE-

Heh, You'd look spiffy in a barrister's wig.

No shit they have an agenda. Dawkins is like the Atheist religion's pope. And they were sitting back being reasonably critical when Bush visited.

[TheEschaton]

That's the point, they don't want to arrest him because of legitimate concerns of "crimes against humanity," because the Pope's alleged crimes would call for the arrest of a great deal of heads of state.

[radamanthys]

I would never allow my son to be alone with our priest, even though I like and trust the man. But here's the thing, I don't trust ANYONE alone with my son, no matter how stellar a person I think they might be.

You've got to quit generalising so much.

You're misinterpreting what I said. You're obviously not one of the people I was talking about when I said "tend to" and "zealots". I wouldn't count you amongst the zealotry. The fact that some people left their children alone with their priests is enough evidence to my point.

All I said is that there will be people pissed about it. And qualified that with the idea that people with forgive him because he's catholic and infallible or whatever their reasons. My only real point is that people will be pissed.

[Tisket]

People will indeed be pissed but more because of the reasons set forth by TheE.

Many Catholics are also pretty pissed that priests systematically raped little boys for years, and that their bishops simply moved them to fresh parishes to cover their tracks so they could spend another decade abusing their wards.

[radamanthys]

That's the point, they don't want to arrest him because of legitimate concerns of "crimes against humanity," because the Pope's alleged crimes would call for the arrest of a great deal of heads of state.

Yea. Neither our current leader nor our former would be immune, I surmise. That's why there's diplomatic immunity.

[radamanthys]

People will indeed be pissed but more because of the reasons set forth by TheE.

Many Catholics are also pretty pissed that priests systematically raped little boys for years, and that their bishops simply moved them to fresh parishes to cover their tracks so they could spend another decade abusing their wards.

You think people put more emotion into their concerns over international law than they do their religion? I hope you're right. I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I'd be pleasantly surprised if each and every catholic was as even tempered and rational about their faith. I doubt it, though.

People defended Ted Haggard. Certainly not everyone, but there were certainly some- hell, he still preaches. Need I say more?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Part of me says "Do it for the lulz".

The other part of me agrees with the E that it's way overboard and the sensationalist bent detracts from the intended (and actually needed) message- the 'spin' to me should be that molesting children is wrong and covering that up is wrong, whereas this would end up looking more like a 'teehee we arrested teh Pope, take that organized religion!!1" sort of thing. I am not Catholic but getting him to resign seems a much better course of action.

[Tisket]

I don't know much about Haggard but, didn't he have to leave his church? I thought he created his own church after that.

I could create my own church. I bet I could start my own church AND get worshippers! I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.

[radamanthys]

I don't know much about Haggard but, didn't he have to leave his church? I thought he created his own church after that.

I could create my own church. I bet I could start my own church AND get worshippers! I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.

Yes! Exactly! People are crazy!

[Tisket]

There is nothing crazy about chocolate!

[Stanley Burrell]

I want to be Pope, man. I wouldn't touch little boys. I'd have a harem of supermodels instead. Oh man; man, then if one of my pope-ites molested some kid, I would just have them crucified, so it would still have religious implications.

But yo, the phattest shit is how I would turn the Popemobile into some 18-wheeler with hydraulics that would lift that shit off the fucking ground and have, like, 50" chrome Jesus spinners. I'd put an unnecessary apostrophe in the Vatican, so it would be like, "Can I kick it?" And then the papacy would be all, "Yes you Vati-can."

My ideas are so fucking brilliant and, plus, the Pope even wears a yarmulke. I'd play death metal and rap everywhere, but my rappers and headbangers would quote the Lord a lot. Not to the gay sell-out point where it would be classified as Christian music, but, like, NFL-style how whenever someone scores a touchdown they point up, because they're religious.

Anyone want to help me with my submission? I'm not sure where to send it, or if the Vati-cannizzle has the Internetz.

[Ashlander]

I don't know much about Haggard but, didn't he have to leave his church? I thought he created his own church after that.

I could create my own church. I bet I could start my own church AND get worshippers! I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.

Kinda scary but it's been done Tisket go google it.

[Geshron]

Dawkins is the man.

[Back]

Some of the reactions here surprise me. Talk about cult of personality...

If it was some other person besides the Pope would people be so quick to forgive and forget?

If it was some other person besides Dawkins would people be so quick to claim publicity stunt?

Even if it is a publicity stunt how does that diminish the horrific scale of the crime?

[Delias]

You've got to quit generalising so much.


I don't have time to weigh everyone individually. A lifetime of experience has demonstrated to me that the religious mind is not a mind to be trusted. Too much talking to god must soften the brain, or something. When I lost my faith, all I kept were the curses, and I consider myself to have gotten the best of the bargain.

[TheEschaton]

I don't think anyone is talking about forgiving and forgetting, Back. Stop being so fucking stupid. I believe what I said is that arresting him is an unreasonable response, and a publicity stunt.

And yes, if some other noted atheist was like "LOL LET'S ARREST THE POPE", I'd think that's a publicity stunt too. The man has a stated, obvious agenda, you can't simply discount that.

Once again, you prove to be moronic beyond belief.

[Fulsin]

People will indeed be pissed but more because of the reasons set forth by TheE.

Many Catholics are also pretty pissed that priests systematically raped little boys for years, and that their bishops simply moved them to fresh parishes to cover their tracks so they could spend another decade abusing their wards.

Why do Catholics stay in a church that is so obviously flawed? Is it for the community? Do they think that things may change? My father, who is a Catholic, doesn't shun me for being an atheist so I doubt that it is being shunned.

It concerns me that religious organizations get special treatment when it comes to systemic abuse. I'm not trying to offend you, but I am really curious how you can rationalize how the pope is supposed to speak for god in light of the fact that he hid all this abuse.

[TheEschaton]

LOL, the Pope speaks for God about as much as I do.

[Back]

I don't think anyone is talking about forgiving and forgetting, Back. Stop being so fucking stupid. I believe what I said is that arresting him is an unreasonable response, and a publicity stunt.

And yes, if some other noted atheist was like "LOL LET'S ARREST THE POPE", I'd think that's a publicity stunt too. The man has a stated, obvious agenda, you can't simply discount that.

Once again, you prove to be moronic beyond belief.

Dunno who pissed in your Wheaties today but you are avoiding/using the topic to take it out on me and I do not appreciate it. Please, kind sir, take whatever issue it is you have with me, shove it up your ass and move along so the adults can have a conversation. Thank you!

[Liagala]

I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.

I'm in.

[Latrinsorm]

That's why there's diplomatic immunity.It's just been revoked.
A lifetime of experience has demonstrated to me that the religious mind is not a mind to be trusted. Too much talking to god must soften the brain, or something.Your observations are surprisingly poor, considering that they have been honed over a lifetime. Consider the case of Monsignor Lemaitre, war hero and theoretical physicist, or perhaps Newton, Faraday, Kelvin, Planck. It turns out they don't name fundamental units after people because they were soft-headed.
Why do Catholics stay in a church that is so obviously flawed?Every social organization, every person, and every physical object is flawed. I think you will agree that abandoning anything at the first indication of imperfection is not a productive life plan.

[SHAFT]

yay religion! what's it good for exactly?

that reminds me, i'm gonna finish watching religulous

[Delias]

Your observations are surprisingly poor, considering that they have been honed over a lifetime. Consider the case of Monsignor Lemaitre, war hero and theoretical physicist, or perhaps Newton, Faraday, Kelvin, Planck. It turns out they don't name fundamental units after people because they were soft-headed.Every social organization, every person, and every physical object is flawed. I think you will agree that abandoning anything at the first indication of imperfection is not a productive life plan.

Reading the works of others is not observation, it is second hand at the very best. I'm not saying "religious people never produce anything of value". I'm saying that in my experience with people I have personally dealt with, religion tends to limit them. I imagine it is all a matter of their perspective, but I was never able to sufficiently close my mind to possibilities to accept the things I was taught at face value.

I don't really think I can agree that this is the "first indication" of imperfection within the catholic church, either. Or any church, for that matter. If everyone kept their beliefs to themselves, and did their praying in private, I think we'd all be better off at this point.

[Tisket]

Kinda scary but it's been done Tisket go google it.

Don't ruin a simple joke with your pesky factoids!


I'm in.

I name thee Cardinal Liagala.

[Delias]

I think I would prefer a bacon based religion.

[Kuyuk]

Can I be part of the church of chocolate?

I can provide chocolate pudding wrasslin for new female initiates...

[Tisket]

Why do Catholics stay in a church that is so obviously flawed? Is it for the community? Do they think that things may change? My father, who is a Catholic, doesn't shun me for being an atheist so I doubt that it is being shunned.

It concerns me that religious organizations get special treatment when it comes to systemic abuse. I'm not trying to offend you, but I am really curious how you can rationalize how the pope is supposed to speak for god in light of the fact that he hid all this abuse.

I'm not here to defend the Catholic faith but, to be fair, I know that there is a lot of media attention on the Catholic church and this issue at the moment, but it is not like every ordained priest is also a pederast.

The Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, organized sports teams, Buddhists, Jews, etc., etc., all harbor pedophiles. I don't see you asking why parents still sign their kids up for those activities or why people are still Jewish or Buddhist.

I just feel the Vatican should be ashamed of reacting to the media scrutiny as though it is some kind of persecution of the faith itself. Grow a set and step up and face this full on.

As far as your comment about special treatment, I think that mandatory reporting to police should be required and enforced and the accused priest should absolutely face charges in a court of law. Furthermore, anyone else in the church who attempts to bypass or otherwise help them avoid charges, by relocation or other means, should face charges of their own as well.

[Tisket]

Can I be part of the church of chocolate?

I can provide chocolate pudding wrasslin for new female initiates...

You'll be our token sexual deviant.

[TheEschaton]

In fact, there is a lower percentage of priests who're pedophiles, than people in the general population. But that doesn't seem to matter to people.

And Back, you've not made a point to have conversation about. I'm beginning to wonder if you and Rocktar are alter egos. You think you are intellectual and urbane, but you make actual real people cringe.

[Tisket]

Backlash should not have admitted to quitting all his vices recently. Now we know that his stupidity is inherent and not just a byproduct of chemical addictions.

[Enitocin]

I don't know much about Haggard but, didn't he have to leave his church? I thought he created his own church after that.

I could create my own church. I bet I could start my own church AND get worshippers! I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.

Count me in. This'll be the shit. Punny!

[Clove]

Backlash should not have admitted to quitting all his vices recently. Now we know that his stupidity is inherent and not just a byproduct of chemical addictions.I wish I could rep you.

[Clove]

Why do Catholics stay in a church that is so obviously flawed? Is it for the community? Do they think that things may change? My father, who is a Catholic, doesn't shun me for being an atheist so I doubt that it is being shunned.That's a good point. Why do you a remain a citizen in an obviously flawed country? Remain in an obviously flawed marriage? Remain in an obviously flawed community, club, job... etc. It really is that simple and this irrational behavior is clearly unique to catholics/the religious. I think you're on to something!

[Gan]

I'm in.

Me too!

Or I'll start a parallel group called the Chocolatnati.

Then we could all meet in secret for sacred naked chocolate rituals.

[Fulsin]

That's a good point. Why do you a remain a citizen in an obviously flawed country? Remain in an obviously flawed marriage? Remain in an obviously flawed community, club, job... etc. It really is that simple and this irrational behavior is clearly unique to catholics/the religious. I think you're on to something!

I have reasons for all of the above, but I was wondering why people who go to church do this for perspective. They have a right to be religious so it wasn't an attack on them. Furthermore, some people do decide to leave flawed countries, marriages, etc.

[Seran]

Hartford, Connecticut (CNN) -- A bill in Connecticut's legislature that would remove the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse cases has sparked a fervent response from the state's Roman Catholic bishops, who released a letter to parishioners Saturday imploring them to oppose the measure.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/11/connecticut.abuse.bill/index.html?hpt=T2

A letter asking for the statute of limitations to be upheld on molestation cases.. Is it just me, or does this imply there are far more undiscovered cases yet to be found?

[Nieninque]

Hartford, Connecticut (CNN) -- A bill in Connecticut's legislature that would remove the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse cases has sparked a fervent response from the state's Roman Catholic bishops, who released a letter to parishioners Saturday imploring them to oppose the measure.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/11/connecticut.abuse.bill/index.html?hpt=T2

A letter asking for the statute of limitations to be upheld on molestation cases.. Is it just me, or does this imply there are far more undiscovered cases yet to be found?

That is generally the case with sexual abuse which, for a number of reasons, can often go undisclosed for years or even for ever.

[Clove]

I have reasons for all of the above, but I was wondering why people who go to church do this for perspective. They have a right to be religious so it wasn't an attack on them. Furthermore, some people do decide to leave flawed countries, marriages, etc.That's a fair question although I think you'll find that some Catholics have left their church because of qualities they couldn't tolerate, this one included. That the church doesn't implode completely indicates its remaining members either 1) don't consider this a flaw 2) don't consider this a serious flaw, or serious enough to be worth the stress and/or inconvenience of leaving.

I'm sure you're interested in the latter motivation. It might be interesting to have an idea of how many active Catholics who recognize this as a problem and remain in the church do so because they don't think this is a big enough problem to leave and why, compared to those that feel it would be too difficult to leave.

Frankly, in the church's defense I'd be interested in knowing the relative proportion of abuse is at the hands of doctors, lawyers, teachers, police, etc. etc. etc. compared to priests. Not that two wrongs make a right or that the Pope or the church should minimize the significance of priests using their influence to abuse children... but sadly I suspect undue influence is as bad (or worse) in other organizations/professional classes but perhaps not in the limelight.

[Clove]

Hartford, Connecticut (CNN) -- A bill in Connecticut's legislature that would remove the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse cases has sparked a fervent response from the state's Roman Catholic bishops, who released a letter to parishioners Saturday imploring them to oppose the measure.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/11/connecticut.abuse.bill/index.html?hpt=T2

A letter asking for the statute of limitations to be upheld on molestation cases.. Is it just me, or does this imply there are far more undiscovered cases yet to be found?Yeah... that's not a good sign at all. Although if we were going to lift the statute of limitations on child sexual abuse cases we ought lift them on sexual abuse/assault cases period.

[Clove]

I don't know much about Haggard but, didn't he have to leave his church? I thought he created his own church after that.

I could create my own church. I bet I could start my own church AND get worshippers! I'm going to dub it the Church of Chocolate.


I'm in.


Count me in. This'll be the shit. Punny!


Me too!

Or I'll start a parallel group called the Chocolatnati.

Then we could all meet in secret for sacred naked chocolate rituals.I already worship chocolate, and yes I will allow you all as initiates.

[Back]

Vatican To Bishops: Report Sex Abuse To Police (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/12/vatican-to-bishops-report_n_534337.html)

NICOLE WINFIELD | 04/12/10 01:10 PM | AP


VATICAN CITY — The Vatican on Monday made clear for the first time that bishops and other church officials should report clerical sex abuse to police if required by law. But the policy failed to satisfy victims who charge that the church deliberately hid abuse for decades.

Victims, government inquiries and grand juries have all charged that the Catholic Church created what amounted to a conspiracy to cover up abuse by keeping allegations that priests raped and molested children secret and not reporting them to civil authorities.

The Vatican has insisted that it has long been the Catholic Church's policy for bishops, like all Christians, to obey civil reporting laws. In a new guide for lay readers posted on its Web site, the Vatican explicitly spells out such a policy.

"Civil law concerning reporting of crimes to the appropriate authorities should always be followed," the Vatican guidelines said.

That phrase was not included in a draft of the guidelines obtained Friday by The Associated Press. The rest of the guidelines follow previously known and public procedures for handling canonical investigations and trials of priests suspected of abuse.

The Vatican offered no explanation for the addition.

-------------------------------------

Small step but one in the right direction.

[TheEschaton]

I remain a Catholic because I believe, at the heart of the matter, Catholicism (like all the great religions) offers a good, sound foundation of ethics and basis of how we treat other people. Sure, over the centuries it has been susceptible to being perverted by others, or even outright disregarded by even the highest members of the Church, but just because the Church is flawed doesn't mean that Catholicism is flawed to the point where not believing is more valid than believing.

That I'm Catholic instead of Muslim or Hindu or Jewish is about 90% cultural and family tradition, more than anything else. There is about 10% though, in which I've been unable to find what I admire and love about Catholicism in any other religion, and thus favor it over other religions, as well as atheism/agnosticism.

ETA: In re: to theological issues, I don't really care. The idea that the Church is the only way to salvation, or Jesus is the only way, does not compute with me, and it seems like a stupid argument to have. I know atheists who I think are far better people than many Catholics I know, and I think that that'll count for more in the end.

-TheE-

[Celephais]

I remain a Catholic because I believe, at the heart of the matter, Catholicism (like all the great religions) offers a good, sound foundation of ethics and basis of how we treat other people. Sure, over the centuries it has been susceptible to being perverted by others, or even outright disregarded by even the highest members of the Church, but just because the Church is flawed doesn't mean that Catholicism is flawed to the point where not believing is more valid than believing.

That I'm Catholic instead of Muslim or Hindu or Jewish is about 90% cultural and family tradition, more than anything else. There is about 10% though, in which I've been unable to find what I admire and love about Catholicism in any other religion, and thus favor it over other religions, as well as atheism/agnosticism.

ETA: In re: to theological issues, I don't really care. The idea that the Church is the only way to salvation, or Jesus is the only way, does not compute with me, and it seems like a stupid argument to have. I know atheists who I think are far better people than many Catholics I know, and I think that that'll count for more in the end.

-TheE-
It sounds like you don't understand the definition of what a religious belief is.

[Clove]

Vatican To Bishops: Report Sex Abuse To Police (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/12/vatican-to-bishops-report_n_534337.html)

NICOLE WINFIELD | 04/12/10 01:10 PM | AP



-------------------------------------

Small step but one in the right direction.I'll bet Congress has a similar policy...

[Seran]

The Vatican rules cannot be changed, so sayeth the Spider.

[4a6c1]

Benedict is a schmuck. We need another John Paul.

[4a6c1]

I remain a Catholic because I believe, at the heart of the matter, Catholicism (like all the great religions) offers a good, sound foundation of ethics and basis of how we treat other people. Sure, over the centuries it has been susceptible to being perverted by others, or even outright disregarded by even the highest members of the Church, but just because the Church is flawed doesn't mean that Catholicism is flawed to the point where not believing is more valid than believing.

That I'm Catholic instead of Muslim or Hindu or Jewish is about 90% cultural and family tradition, more than anything else. There is about 10% though, in which I've been unable to find what I admire and love about Catholicism in any other religion, and thus favor it over other religions, as well as atheism/agnosticism.

ETA: In re: to theological issues, I don't really care. The idea that the Church is the only way to salvation, or Jesus is the only way, does not compute with me, and it seems like a stupid argument to have. I know atheists who I think are far better people than many Catholics I know, and I think that that'll count for more in the end.

-TheE-

That's deep.

I like being Catholic because it's like being in a cult.

CULTY!

http://images.tdaxp.com/tdaxp_upload/chi_rho_md.jpg
^weird culty symbols

[Cephalopod]

That's no panda! (http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100410/local/panda-print)

http://static.timesofmalta.com/media/serve/20100410--102856-loc_25.jpg

[Tisket]

I like being Catholic because it's like being in a cult.

CULTY!

They get people hooked with all the robes and incense and standing and sitting and chanting and then BOOM there you are, a bonafide Catholic groupie before you know it. It's insidious.

[AnticorRifling]

I like all the carvings and the pictures in the windows and painted on the walls. That way they can tell the story and I don't have to know how to read. (Oddly enough I think that's why they actually do a lot of this because so many folks could read way back in the way back circ 1962?)

[Gan]

I like all the carvings and the pictures in the windows and painted on the walls. That way they can tell the story and I don't have to know how to read. (Oddly enough I think that's why they actually do a lot of this because so many folks could read way back in the way back circ 1962?)

I'm sure there's a jarhead joke in there somewhere...

[Cephalopod]

Oh, I missed this thread over the weekend... I imagine nothing will happen, and it's just a big publicity stunt for Dawkins. Dawkins and Hitchens are saying they want to arrest the pope, and that the pope is not recognized by the UN as a valid head of state (since the Vatican is only an 'observer' state), so he cannot claim diplomatic immunity.

(For reference, the US has recognized the Vatican as a sovereign state, so it's doubtful this will get much traction with a major ally.)

From his website:


Needless to say, I did NOT say "I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI" or anything so personally grandiloquent. You have to remember that The Sunday Times is a Murdoch newspaper, and that all newspapers follow the odd custom of entrusting headlines to a sub-editor, not the author of the article itself.

What I DID say to Marc Horne when he telephoned me out of the blue, and I repeat it here, is that I am whole-heartedly behind the initiative by Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens to mount a legal challenge to the Pope's proposed visit to Britain. Beyond that, I declined to comment to Marc Horne, other than to refer him to my 'Ratzinger is the Perfect Pope' article here: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5341

Here is what really happened. Christopher Hitchens first proposed the legal challenge idea to me on March 14th. I responded enthusiastically, and suggested the name of a high profile human rights lawyer whom I know. I had lost her address, however, and set about tracking her down. Meanwhile, Christopher made the brilliant suggestion of Geoffrey Robertson. He approached him, and Mr Robertson's subsequent 'Put the Pope in the Dock' article in The Guardian shows him to be ideal:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5366
The case is obviously in good hands, with him and Mark Stephens. I am especially intrigued by the proposed challenge to the legality of the Vatican as a sovereign state whose head can claim diplomatic immunity.

Even if the Pope doesn't end up in the dock, and even if the Vatican doesn't cancel the visit, I am optimistic that we shall raise public consciousness to the point where the British government will find it very awkward indeed to go ahead with the Pope's visit, let alone pay for it.



For the sake of argument...
1) Assume there is written proof that the head of Coke helped cover up the molestation of young children in Britain
2) The head of Coke is visiting Britain

wat do?


On a flip side:
1) Assume there is written proof that the president of France helped cover up the molestation of young children in the United States
2) The president of France visits the United States

wat do?

[Bark Pandit]

I want to be Pope, man. I wouldn't touch little boys. I'd have a harem of supermodels instead. Oh man; man, then if one of my pope-ites molested some kid, I would just have them crucified, so it would still have religious implications.

But yo, the phattest shit is how I would turn the Popemobile into some 18-wheeler with hydraulics that would lift that shit off the fucking ground and have, like, 50" chrome Jesus spinners. I'd put an unnecessary apostrophe in the Vatican, so it would be like, "Can I kick it?" And then the papacy would be all, "Yes you Vati-can."

My ideas are so fucking brilliant and, plus, the Pope even wears a yarmulke. I'd play death metal and rap everywhere, but my rappers and headbangers would quote the Lord a lot. Not to the gay sell-out point where it would be classified as Christian music, but, like, NFL-style how whenever someone scores a touchdown they point up, because they're religious.

Anyone want to help me with my submission? I'm not sure where to send it, or if the Vati-cannizzle has the Internetz.

This is the only intelligent thing said throughout this entire thread. Awesome post, bra'.

[Stanley Burrell]

This is the only intelligent thing said throughout this entire thread. Awesome post, bra'.

Also, if people want to give tons of green rep to this alternative handle I made, so that I can tear down buildings and shit, then let's do this shit up.

Man, I am bored. Someone show me your titties, jeeze.

[4a6c1]

I like all the carvings and the pictures in the windows and painted on the walls. That way they can tell the story and I don't have to know how to read. (Oddly enough I think that's why they actually do a lot of this because so many folks could read way back in the way back circ 1962?)

Actually it was not allowed for masses to be held in English until something like 1955 I think (correct me), they were originally in latin. John Paul changed all that. Anyways the stained glass windows, the stations of the cross and rosary (which are all visual learning tools technically) date back farther than the sixties. They turned out to be perfect for converting the masses of illiterate and ignorant feudal peasants who were more than willing to strap on a big red cross and march towards the desert to defend the only organization of aristocrats that (seemingly) cared about them. Imagine being allowed to come to this grandiose place once a week and pray inside it's pristine walls, listening to chants and beautiful chorus before going back to your single room household with a dirt floor and 10 wailing children. It's such an interesting religion whether you agree with the general premise or not. Like I said before, it just needs another John Paul.

[Tisket]

Also, if people want to give tons of green rep to this alternative handle I made, so that I can tear down buildings and shit, then let's do this shit up.

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

I suffer from short term memory loss so don't expect me to remember tomorrow.

[Stanley Burrell]

I suffer from short term memory loss

Hook me up, Tizzle-Dizzle.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10353984

The "No 2" in the Church says that homosexuality, not celibacy, is linked to pedophilia. Awesome.

--

I don't think either of those things (celibacy or homosexuality) is linked to/leads to pedophilia, but seriously, let's blame it on the gays now? They couldn't just say, We're sorry, but no, we still maintain that celibacy is NOT the root cause of this? Or better yet, just say sorry and do what they can to fix things and THEN address the concerns over requiring celibacy from the clergy?

[Seran]

Misdirection has always been one of the strongest tools of both political organizations, as well as religious groups. That people actually believe it is the sad part.

Anyone ever stop to consider whether this all is a throwback to the days of budding Roman Catholicism when pedophilia distressingly commonplace? Not that it's taught to clergymen how to get around those pesky rules about not laying with women, but considering history, it's an interesting coincidence.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Honestly, it's not shocking to me that some pedophiles would be attracted to the Church.. just as it's not shocking to me when they're attracted to being teachers, or coaches, or caregivers. Getting a position of trusted authority with constant, easy, unquestioned access to children would be ideal for any pedophile. Obviously it's sick and unfortunate but whether it's a priest or a school teacher is immaterial I think to a lot of people, it's how the organization the pedophile is caught within reacts. Most of the time the organization is quick and swift about denouncing and punishing/doing their part to keep them from harming more children.. the Church was (is?) more concerned with protecting their reputation than protecting innocent children. That tends to piss people off, and not just the victims.

[Stanley Burrell]

Thank you everyone to giving pos-rep to that retarded fag-handle that I made fag-commentary with, 7 or 9 posts ago.

Faggots.

[Delias]

its the damn gay pedophile necrophiliac christ-killing jews that are in control of the media and they are clearly out to get the catholic church. I mean, come on people, do I really need to elaborate on this?

(I hope everyone realizes that the above is a joke, but considering the world in which we live, I felt it prudent to confirm it here.)

[TheEschaton]

Actually it was not allowed for masses to be held in English until something like 1955 I think (correct me), they were originally in latin. John Paul changed all that. Anyways the stained glass windows, the stations of the cross and rosary (which are all visual learning tools technically) date back farther than the sixties. They turned out to be perfect for converting the masses of illiterate and ignorant feudal peasants who were more than willing to strap on a big red cross and march towards the desert to defend the only organization of aristocrats that (seemingly) cared about them. Imagine being allowed to come to this grandiose place once a week and pray inside it's pristine walls, listening to chants and beautiful chorus before going back to your single room household with a dirt floor and 10 wailing children. It's such an interesting religion whether you agree with the general premise or not. Like I said before, it just needs another John Paul.

Vatican II changed the masses from Latin to the vernacular (the language of the region), and that was initiated by John the....XVI? XII? I forget the number. JPII didn't become Pope til like 1982, I think you're forgetting.

And, obviously, the #2 in the Church is an idiot. I've always maintained that a male-only, celibate clergy may know many religious, spiritual things since they've forgone the world's earthly pleasures, but the one thing they don't know about is sex.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Pope Forgives Molested Children (http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/)

Honestly, it reminded me of this article, and that's scary.

[Tisket]

Anyone ever stop to consider whether this all is a throwback to the days of budding Roman Catholicism when pedophilia distressingly commonplace? Not that it's taught to clergymen how to get around those pesky rules about not laying with women, but considering history, it's an interesting coincidence.

Wait, what? Let me get this straight...you believe that child rapists are created when a man is denied access to female sexual companionship? Did I understand you right?

[Latrinsorm]

I think he's talking about how pedophilia was commonly accepted in ancient Greece, and Christianity had the great misfortune of coming in contact with Greco-Roman culture. The sudden accretions of antithetical beliefs are almost entirely unpleasant.

[Tisket]

Put away the thesaurus, dude.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't have a thesaurus. :(

[Tisket]

When out and about on your daily walkabouts, do you speak to others the way you compose sentences when you post here? Don't get me wrong, I like reading (and necessarily rereading) your sentences here. I am just curious if you dumb it down in reality.

[Cephalopod]

I was accused of trying to be on-topic, so here.

Pedopope!
http://i.imgur.com/ac5GS.jpg

And the pope, meeting with a trusted advisor:
http://i.imgur.com/ohHvr.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

When out and about on your daily walkabouts, do you speak to others the way you compose sentences when you post here? Don't get me wrong, I like reading (and necessarily rereading) your sentences here. I am just curious if you dumb it down in reality.I really do talk like this for precisely the reason you bring up: I think it's incredibly patronizing and insulting to assume other people need me to dumb anything down for them.

I will make exceptions for my niece who is approximately 2 years old, but I always make sure to scowl when I do so, so she knows how suboptimal our conversations are.

[AnticorRifling]

I really do talk like this for precisely the reason you bring up: I think it's incredibly patronizing and insulting to assume other people need me to dumb anything down for them.

I will make exceptions for my niece who is approximately 2 years old, but I always make sure to scowl when I do so, so she knows how suboptimal our conversations are.

Are you afraid of drowning when it rains?

[Celephais]

I really do talk like this for precisely the reason you bring up: I think it's incredibly patronizing and insulting to assume other people need me to dumb anything down for them.

I will make exceptions for my niece who is approximately 2 years old, but I always make sure to scowl when I do so, so she knows how suboptimal our conversations are.
Gemstone significantly expanded my vocabulary when I was younger and I continue to think that finding precise means of expressing my thoughts to others is key in mitigating the chances of misinterpretation.

Counter to this, I often intentionally choose words with vague colloquial meaning in order to ensure I have sufficient malleability if I need to expound on what I've said, or to prevent my point from being deflected by someone focusing on the prose rather than the content.

In high school someone once asked me why I said some $5 word, and I asked him what I should have said, his response: "stuff".

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I was accused of trying to be on-topic, so here.

Pedopope!
http://i.imgur.com/ac5GS.jpg

And the pope, meeting with a trusted advisor:
http://i.imgur.com/ohHvr.jpg

You should have posted this too:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100410/local/panda-print

[Celephais]

You should have posted this too:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100410/local/panda-print
I like how this person is all butthurt over how this reflects poorly on BEARS...


Pedobear is a cartoon character based on a real and wonderful animal. Pleeease stop using him as a metaphor for paedophilia. Aren't our animals suffering enough at the hands of the most dangerous predator that has ever walked on this planet i.e mankind. The demolition of their homes to build monstrosities without a thought for them or their young is just one of the sins we commit against them because christianity has taught us we are sooo superior. All "wild" animals have as much right to live in dignity on this planet as the human animal. Evolution respects them as much as us. I am proud to say I've been a lapsed catholic for many years, not since paedophilia was uncovered but since I began to question the wealth of the vatican.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I was fully expecting that last line to be, "since I began to question the Vatican's treatment of bears."

[Cephalopod]

You should have posted this too:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100410/local/panda-print

I posted it in some other thread yesterday... I'm far too lazy to look it up, but rest assured I'm on top of such shit.

[Cephalopod]

I'm going to crack open a bear and play some TF2.

[Tisket]

Gemstone significantly expanded my vocabulary when I was younger and I continue to think that finding precise means of expressing my thoughts to others is key in mitigating the chances of misinterpretation.

Counter to this, I often intentionally choose words with vague colloquial meaning in order to ensure I have sufficient malleability if I need to expound on what I've said, or to prevent my point from being deflected by someone focusing on the prose rather than the content.

In high school someone once asked me why I said some $5 word, and I asked him what I should have said, his response: "stuff".

I can understand this point of view and I love a well turned phrase as much as the next person, however, there is a certain point where you have to realize that intentional obfuscation does not promote communication. There is a line between delivering a point concisely, with clarity vs. being pompous and pretentious. Not that I am calling anyone here "pompous".

Or am I? Anyway, this is probably fodder for it's own thread. Back to the pope. If he does get arrested how on earth will they manage to fit his pope hat into a squad car?