Liberal vs Conservative

[Ravenstorm]

Because this is getting off topic of the thread it was posted in and it could be an interesting topic in its own right.


Originally posted by Tendarian
Most young people are liberal and eventually with some real world experience start seeing the conservative side.

It was pretty much the reverse for me. I was much more selfish and self centered when I was young so I really didn't give a shit about what happened to anyone else (in the larger sense) so long as it didn't affect me.

As I got older, I realized that issues are so much less black and white than I once believed they were and that it's much better to err on the side of perhaps being too liberal since the biggest difference that I can see between it and conservatism, is that liberals are trying to grant as much freedom to everyone as possible while conservatives usually try to restrict it or take it away from someone.

And since I don't want my freedoms limited or taken away, it's just hypocritical of me to be willing to take them from someone else. That's a rather simplistic explanation of course but to me, I see it as one of the fundamental difference between the two philosophies.

Raven

And since I don't want my freedoms limited or taken away, it's just hypocritical of me to be willing to take them from someone else. That's a rather simplistic explanation of course but to me, I see it as one of the fundamental difference between the two philosophies.

really that aspect of the (R) party only came about with the patriot act, history as it stands goes the other way where as conservative's err on the side of once right and freedom to do with life and money as they chose (some exceptions of course they are not libratarian) where as Liberals are for a government that has more of an involvment in your everyday life.

[HarmNone]

I have been liberal all my life. I have not changed appreciably over the years. Perhaps it is because, although my father was not particularly interested in politics, my mother is liberal, as was my maternal grandfather...both strong influences in my life. I grew up with that thinking, and it has remained with me.

HarmNone

ok i found what i was looking for


(This was found at BlueEyedTex.com)

A family is out for an evening walk when little Timmy decides to throw a temper tantrum, sits down on the curb, and refuses to go any farther.

What do his parents do?

If his parents are conservatives, they bid Timmy a cheerful "B-Bye!" and keep right on strolling.

Within a couple of minutes, Timmy will decide that coming along is more fun than sitting alone on the curb, and will run to catch up.

If his parents are liberals, the whole family will stop while the parents console and encourage Timmy until he is ready to proceed once more.

This will only take a couple of minutes, and the stroll will continue.

Apparently, both methods work. The difference is what happens on the next walk.

Y'see, the Timmy with the liberal parents has now learned that throwing a temper tantrum gets him attention, so he will do it again—and he will continue to throw bigger and more elaborate tantrums as long as it works.

Meanwhile, the Timmy with the conservative parents will never pull that [stuff] again.

Yet, while the method used by the conservative family is clearly the one with long-term results, they are constantly berated by liberals for being cruel and heartless.

"You just left Timmy there? How could you? What if he never caught up? He could have been emotionally scarred for life! There oughta be a law prohibiting such mistreatment!"

Would the conservative family have reacted differently if little Timmy had fallen down and broken his leg?

Of course; they're not heartless. That's just liberal propaganda.

Will the liberal family ever learn how to get Timmy to quit throwing tantrums?

Sure—and that's why people tend to get more conservative as they get older: because they learn !!


[Edited on 3-27-2004 by The Edine]

[HarmNone]

Would the liberal family have reacted differently if Timmie were not a very young child? I think so!

Children do not vote. Children do not sit in Congress. Children do not enact laws. The government of this country was not set up to control little children, nor is it meant to be controlled BY little children. For that reason, I see the analogy as a poor one.

HarmNone

[Ravenstorm]

Not to mention that the story is written (no doubt by a conservative) solely to justify its own theories. I'm sorry, but if I wanted too, I could write one to prove just the opposite.

A little bit of critical reasoning is a good thing.

Raven

oh come on harmnone look at the point behind the analogy
Conservative- you are responsible for yourself and in doing so you must succeed or fail biased on your actions
Liberal- You are only responsible so far and if you fail others who succeed will be required to take care of you.

Not saying that if you are say a child or mental handicaped that you should not recieve aid if needed. (hence the not cold hearted part) But if you are a capable humanbeing and you mess up, again and again then it is your fault and you must live with the actions you decided to take.

Im not trying to insult one side or another, but that is what it comes down to, or so I feel.

[i remember halloween]

Originally posted by HarmNoneChildren do not vote. Children do not sit in Congress. Children do not enact laws. The government of this country was not set up to control little children, nor is it meant to be controlled BY little children. For that reason, I see the analogy as a poor one.

HarmNone

quite wrong, they eventually do.

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by i remember halloween]

[i remember halloween]

i think gurewicz summed the difference up pretty well with the lyrics:

'hey brother christian (conservative) with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud i can't hear a word you're saying.

hey sister, bleeding heart (liberal) with all of your compassion, your labors soothe the hurt but can't assuage temptation'

[HarmNone]

Not as children, they don't, halloween. Children cannot, and should not, be treated as adults. They are bound to make mistakes. It is how they learn.

Edine, I still feel that the analogy is a poor one. Most liberals do not feel that those who are unwilling to help themselves at all should be coddled. There are those who do, just as there are those conservatives who go so far right as to fall right off the planet. We have had one posting on these boards lately. ;)

Pointing at the extremes and using them as examples, whether done by a conservative or a liberal, is hyperbole. It does not apply to the real world.

HarmNone

[Ilvane]

You know something? My parents were always really strict with me as a child, but were liberals politically. My mother had a strict curfew for me, and I had to do homework and schoolwork first before doing activities. She also said if I didn't do well in school work, I wasn't doing activities. My parents let me make my mistakes and I learned from them. They didn't pay off my bills or pick up the pieces for me. They let me learn it on my own.

It's absolutely idiocy to suggest that all people are like that, and that the stereotypes of these things make any sense at all, Edine.

-A

[i remember halloween]

so you don't think your childhood had anything to do with who you are as an adult?


I have been liberal all my life. I have not changed appreciably over the years. Perhaps it is because, although my father was not particularly interested in politics, my mother is liberal, as was my maternal grandfather...both strong influences in my life. I grew up with that thinking, and it has remained with me.

maybe i just read this wrong...

harmnone look at all the social welfare programs that are in effect, I think most of them should not exist.
for example the HeadStart program<90% sure on the name of that> which gets some 50million<if i remember correctly> a year to teach the illiterate adults to read. Our countries problem with illitercy ended long ago and it is a drain on tax payers money.
The goverment should exist for only a few things. Law and order, and protection of the people who live under its law.

[HarmNone]

You are mixing Ilvane's post with mine, halloween. I have no doubt that the way I was raised had a great deal to do with the person I am today. While I am not like my mother, or my grandfather, I am still politically liberal for the most part.

My children, however, were raised rather strictly, as was I. Like Ilvane, I was allowed to make my own mistakes and to pay the price exacted for them. I taught my children the same way. Not everyone goes to extremes. Most of us follow the prudent path as we see it. Your quote of Gurewicz beautifully illustrates how extremes are never truly workable.

HarmNone

Ilvane its a analogy, used as an example in a humorus form, not something to take as fact and how I or others may feel.

[HarmNone]

Edine, hon, I come across adults who cannot read or write on a regular basis. Some of them are pretty good at covering it, until there is nobody around to cover for them. It is really quite sad, and these people do deserve the opportunity to learn. I would never deny them my tax dollar to further that cause. That is how I wish to live.

Like so many of our programs and laws, the social programs that are in place were well-meant. However, there will always be those who find and exploit the loopholes in the system, growing the program out of control through abuse. (Look at what has happened to GemStone if you would like a direct comparison.)

Many of these programs need to be revamped. There is no doubt about it. Yet, it must be done carefully and thoughtfully, so that those who are truly in need do not fall between the cracks. I believe in a helping hand, not in a hand-out for those who could do better for themselves but choose to misuse the system. That is how most liberals feel, believe it or not.

HarmNone

[Warriorbird]

Not really fitting into either category, I don't feel like I can really judge. I do think that liberals want government more influencing a person's financial life and their health.... whereas conservatives want government to effect a person's morality more.

[i remember halloween]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Edine, hon, I come across adults who cannot read or write on a regular basis. Some of them are pretty good at covering it, until there is nobody around to cover for them. It is really quite sad, and these people do deserve the opportunity to learn. I would never deny them my tax dollar to further that cause. That is how I wish to live.

no problem, but how can you deny me the right to refuse to pay for their education? i'm not opposed to helping people out, thats what charities do. i'm opposed to forcing people to help others. it's funny, the mindsets are almost reversed. conversatives want to give people the freedom from being forced to spend money to help people while liberals want to make everyone pay for the mistakes of the few.

the people you come across who can not read are not the ones the program is helping, the funny thing about it is they must goto HeadStart, HeadStart does not come to them, It should have one of two things done either elminated completely or revamped, and it should be done now, today not 5 years and 250million dollars in the future. I learned to read well before I went to school, it was not my teachers that taught me it was my family, my parents, and my own williness to learn.
America has a %99.(whatever) literacy rate, I dont feel that there should be so much money tossed into a program for that .000(whatever)% of americans that can not read, if anything that should be upto the states to fund such a program because it is their education system that is failing to teach the needed reading skills.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by i remember halloween
no problem, but how can you deny me the right to refuse to pay for their education? i'm not opposed to helping people out, thats what charities do. i'm opposed to forcing people to help others. it's funny, the mindsets are almost reversed. conversatives want to give people the freedom from being forced to spend money to help people while liberals want to make everyone pay for the mistakes of the few.

I, personally, would not deny you the rights of which you speak, halloween. That does not lie within my purview, any more than granting those rights does. Such things are part of our taxation system. That system has been alive and well through many presidential terms, both conservative and liberal, and none of them has done anything to make it possible for people to reject paying for certain things. :(

There are many things for which I resent my tax dollars being used. However, because of the laws governing taxation in this country, there is nothing I can do about it, just as there is nothing you can do about it. We are in the same boat in that regard.

HarmNone

[Trinitis]

I just want a person able to stand up for what the US needs, stops babein' other countries, starts showing asshats who fuck with us who's boss, stops trying to impress the world, and starts trying to fix things on the home front. A person willing to stand behind what they do, and is not afraid to openly admit when they fuck up.

Whats that make me?

[Sean]

Originally posted by The Edine
harmnone look at all the social welfare programs that are in effect, I think most of them should not exist.
for example the HeadStart program<90% sure on the name of that> which gets some 50million<if i remember correctly> a year to teach the illiterate adults to read. Our countries problem with illitercy ended long ago and it is a drain on tax payers money.
The goverment should exist for only a few things. Law and order, and protection of the people who live under its law.

They still have to help themselves and enter the program.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by The Edine
the people you come across who can not read are not the ones the program is helping, the funny thing about it is they must goto HeadStart, HeadStart does not come to them, It should have one of two things done either elminated completely or revamped, and it should be done now, today not 5 years and 250million dollars in the future. I learned to read well before I went to school, it was not my teachers that taught me it was my family, my parents, and my own williness to learn.
America has a %99.(whatever) literacy rate, I dont feel that there should be so much money tossed into a program for that .000(whatever)% of americans that can not read, if anything that should be upto the states to fund such a program because it is their education system that is failing to teach the needed reading skills.

While I do think the HeadStart program needs some serious work, I happen to be active in an organization that does reach out into the community to bring people who need such services the opportunity to receive them. We have been pretty successful.

From my point of view, I am happy to help with my tax dollars. That does not bother me a bit. As for giving that option to the states, individually, the thought makes me shudder. The state I live in would have an even higher level of illiteracy than it already has!

HarmNone

[Ilvane]

Literacy isn't just reading, Edine. It's grammar, punctuation, being able to form complete sentences, and being to get a point across clearly.

This country actually some problems with this. Our students are behind those in many of the other developed and funded countries.

-A

[Ravenstorm]

And by the way, the US literacy rate is not 99.x percent but 97% according to the CIA factbook. A difference in 7.5 million people is pretty significant. You might want to consider doing a minimal amount of research instead of making things up as you go along. It makes for a stronger arguement.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Preach on, Sistah Ilvane! We are horrifyingly behind. It is really quite distressing to see our education system in such disarray. :(

HarmNone

[i remember halloween]

you don't need a population of intelligent people in order to be successful, just a small minority.

hmm I'm sorry Ravenstorm the website i got it from did not take into account illegal imigrants, and being that I dont feel they should even be allowed in our educational system I dont think they really matter (at least not in my mind)

and you may blame the problem with our educational system on the teachers unions and the goverments inablility to fire those teachers who do not preform upto par.

Edit:lets get back to the subject at hand sorry to go off on a tangent like that

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by The Edine]

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by The Edine
and you may blame the problem with our educational system on the teachers unions and the goverments inablility to fire those teachers who do not preform upto par.

Edit:lets get back to the subject at hand sorry to go off on a tangent like that

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by The Edine]

I agree. The Teacher's union is the worst thing for our educational system. Next to No Child Left Behind, of course.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
Yet, while the method used by the conservative family is clearly the one with long-term results, Timmy notices a dog coming towards him, so he gets up to pet it. Oops! Timmy got hit by a car. So yes, very long-term results.
Originally posted by HarmNone
Children do not vote. Children do not sit in Congress. Children do not enact laws.You have a higher opinion of our politicians than most. :D

I think I count as both. Or neither. I say that because I tend to find myself on opposite sides of the liberal/conservative line depending on the issue.

[TheEschaton]

1.


no problem, but how can you deny me the right to refuse to pay for their education? i'm not opposed to helping people out, thats what charities do. i'm opposed to forcing people to help others.

I dislike this idea, because I think it is fallacious to say that if all social services were gotten rid of, the slack would be picked up by CHARITABLE DONATIONS.

Human beings, raised in a capitalist society, will always be taught that using the money for their own good is the best, and thus will do it. They're not gonna give of their own volition. And conservatives call liberals some sort of head-in-the-cloud starry-eyed idealists. If you think the money we save in social services would be made up in charitable donations (furthermore, donations to necessary donations, instead of like, say, money being poured into the "Propogation of Ill-Mannered Fornswaggles Society"), then you are rather naive as well.

2.
I thought HeadStart was a nursery school program?

3.
I agree with Raven. When I was young, I was very self-concerned, and greedy. As I grew older, and became more concerned about the welfare of other people, I grew more liberal.

4.
I'm an immigrant. I don't think I'm allowed to be anything but a liberal Democrat, although there's this surprising trend among Indian immigrants to be Republicans, albeit usually moderate ones (ref. Bobby Jindal). But the Indian immigrant community is pretty fucking hypocritical as it is, so that's a whole different story.

-TheE-

[HarmNone]

HeadStart is primarily concerned with low-income children, TheE. However, the HeadStart Family Literacy Program offers assistance to adults seeking to become literate. :)

HarmNone

[TheEschaton]

As a little addendum:

The Edine, you're about at a, what, 6th grade literacy level? I mean, seriously, you're arguing about how literacy is not a problem, and your spelling, grammar, punctuation, and syntax is a mangled mess worse than Eliza Doolittle. It doesn't do anything for your argument, especially THIS argument.

I learned a long time ago that an argument is not so much about having all the facts on your side (though that helps), but how you say it, and how you present it. That's why Clinton always won his arguments (besides being a Rhodes scholar, that is, he was also a brilliant speechgiver), and G.W. Bush looks like a complete fool, even when he has a prepared speech in front of him written by some pretty brilliant people themselves.

-TheE-

Headstart is a program where Parents of young children are able to go to class to learn to read to be able to teach their children to read at young ages. <correct me if I'm wrong Harmnone>
Basically it does deal with young children TheE but its directed at the parents. I think the program is a good idea, But the amount of money allocated to it for nothing but a bureaucracy is a waste ... and that was just one example i could snag off the top of my head


I myself do work for the Gift of Sight Program and volunteer my time, as well as work with Prevent Blindness America.
I wish more people would be willing to offer time to things like this but many don't, But I feel that it is up to the person if they wish to help others, and offer the money they earn to do so. I don't think less of anyone who does not, that is their choice and the wonderful thing about America is we have that choice. There is to much money floating around for the programs which should not be the governments responsibility but the individual responsibility.
(exceptions of course are thoes that can not help themselves.)

[i remember halloween]

actually the problem with education is the parents. my mom is a teacher and has been for the past 30 years. she has seen a drastic change of attitude amongst the youth and its for the worse.

[TheEschaton]

Halloween, that, in large part, I think, has to do with the teaching.


Even though I am a liberal, I myself am shocked sometimes at the teacher's union, though I would never call them a terrorist organization, like the Bush Administration does.

When I was coming up, I was lucky enough to have teachers who realized that it wasn't the facts you learned by rote which were important, but instilling the questioning attitude in children to learn.

A mentor of mine once said that to teach is not to tell the student the when, where, hows and whos, but rather, to make the student ask why? I think they must of hired her to write that bit in the Matrix Reloaded.

When a kid is told that his whole worth is based on these standardized tests, and when teachers have to teach to those tests, and students become personally divested from their education - it's no wonder children's attitude towards learning has deteriorated. Look what the MCAS has done to Massachussetts. I believe they're rolling them back a bit this year (?) because they were so wildly unsuccessful.

-TheE-

TheE, way to go with the personal attacks.
When I put my time into writing things, like papers, I am a A\B student. I was in Honors Classes throughout High School including English, as well as being offered the options to join the honors program at the college I currently attend. I am also as of next quarter going to be about 10 credit hours away from getting both my associates in Arts and Science before I go away to the military.

I do not proofread what I put down in places like this, because I do not feel it either necessary or a good use of my time.

and the above post by TheE is why our educational system is so poor. Other countries who are far ahead of us in the rankings do not teach students to daydream, they are given facts, Or a job to learn and that is it.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
I do not proofread what I put down in places like this, because I do not feel it either necessary or a good use of my time.

These board are little different from being in GS. You decide what impression you want to give. In this case, you give an uneducated one because you don't bother. It definitely colors anything you say. Don't take offense when your own actions or lack of them affect how someone sees you. Lack of proper spelling, punctuation, capitalization and grammar will do that.

It's a simple fact of the internet.

Raven

The only problem as Parkbandit was kind enough to point(in regards to TheE) out in another thread is that Even the people who chastise are guilty of the same offence.

Now why dont we get back on topic and stop making this another thread about me huh?

[HarmNone]

I was schooled abroad. I have that experience from which to draw when I say that we were not taught just facts or a job. We were taught to question and to seek answers. We were also taught how to seek those answers and how to present them in the most cognizant form. Those lessons have been invaluable to me, along with the lesson that not all people think alike...nor should they. :)

As for the way you present yourself, Edine, that is your choice. What TheE and Raven are telling you is true, however. It is particularly true when intellectual topics are on the table. Presenting your position with attention to grammar, punctuation and spelling gives you more credibility than if you just slap-dash something down. Even on the internet, on a message board such as this one, such things are noticed and do have a direct and lasting impact on how your ideas are received. :)

HarmNone

I point to japan Harmnone.

Edit:Harmnone I am not speaking at a college level. I am speaking of k-12. The systems of education in other countries has most like changed in the last....25 years since you were 18

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by The Edine]

[HarmNone]

If you wish to single out ONE of the countries that is ahead of us with regard to education, Edine, that is different. There are some that teach as you mentioned. Not all do, however.

HarmNone received her college degrees in the United States, but went to highschool in Switzerland, and to middle school in Indonesia. :)

*Edited to add some background information*

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by HarmNone]

hmm as far as I remember Japan was #1 in their educational system.
Most European countries now work to a baccalaureate test or something similar, doing well on the test will allow you to continue to college, not doing up to par will result in you going to a technical school to learn a trade.

(above is using France for an example)

[HarmNone]

There are a number of countries that use such a system, Edine. Pity the poor student who does not do well on tests, for his/hers is the onus of technical school. :(

There are some who do not do well on tests but are, nevertheless, quite capable of learning even the more esoteric subjects. Theirs is a sad lot, in my opinion. I have known more than a few people who could ace nearly any test you threw at them, but could not practically apply any of the knowledge they supposedly had. They are an odd lot, to say the least. ;)

HarmNone wishes there were some better way to help people find their niche

Yes, but that system as such are the ones who get the best tests, compared to the United States. That is the point I'm trying to make. When we compare our educational system to that of other countries we have to look at the style they use to test their students. When it comes down to it I like how we are far better ... minus the teachers unions.

[Warriorbird]

:chuckle: You sure as hell wouldn't like their governments or tax rates for the most part. Suck it up.

what exactly was that post directed at Warriorbird?

[Warriorbird]

You... and the school systems of other countries.

[i remember halloween]

unannounced math tests during elementary, middle, and high school is the easiest way to determine who the smart students are.

Warriorbird if you reread my post you will notice that I said I enjoy our system of schooling far better. Please try not to jump to an answer if you dont read the whole thing.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by i remember halloween
unannounced math tests during elementary, middle, and high school is the easiest way to determine who the smart students are.

It would also put the math-wise idiot savant right on top of the food chain. ;)

HarmNone, with tongue firmly in cheek

[Warriorbird]

Is far better? Then you complained about it endlessly? Maybe if you used better grammar your posts might flow better.

Warriorbird your attempt to insult me again if futile. You messed up just admit it or be quiet

Edit: I also want to add again that this is not a thread about me, so perhaps we can get back to the subject at hand

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by The Edine]

[i remember halloween]

math wise idiot savants are not in regular schools

[Warriorbird]

Sure. I misread your illogical post. I mean... everybody knows that the SAT is harder than the International Bauccelaureate. And those tests the British kids go through... they're a breeze!

Sort've like you suggesting the CIA factbook is somehow liberally biased.

[Warriorbird]

It's not like we don't have enough threads about you that YOU created.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by i remember halloween
math wise idiot savants are not in regular schools

Hee! You have a point, halloween....but you ruined my funny, dammit! :D

HarmNone, still grinning

You really dont know when to quit do you?
Warriorbird give it up.

The SAT test in fact is not nearly used as much anymore as it once was. The ACT is the standard testing method now. SAT's are still used in some east coast institutions but in many cases schools will take both the ACT and SAT or only the ACT.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
And those tests the British kids go through... they're a breeze!


Gah! British A levels and O levels! I can remember friends of mine being nearly driven mad waiting to get their results on those damned things! My heart really went out to them. :(

HarmNone was happy for those who "passed" and felt really badly for those who didn't

[Warriorbird]

:laughs: Maybe in the West Coast, son. The ACT really isn't all that thrilling either.

I don't live on the West Coast, I suggest you look at the location next to my name.

I cant seem to see the point your trying to make. Do you care to enlighten us?

[Warriorbird]

Maybe that you have little room to point out other folks's errors when you make so many yourself?

I applied to a mix of schools for undergrad. From my experience... the East Coast schools favored the SAT... the Midwest a mix... and the West Coast the ACT. I highly doubt things have shifted that dramatically much in the time since.

and how long has it been since you were in college?

[Warriorbird]

Graduated in 2001.

and you started in 97? or later?

[Warriorbird]

Started in 97. In retrospect... sure... that's seven years. Yet I worked in Admissions for work study for two years in a nationally ranked private college in Wisconsin... so it's really only about 4. They accepted SAT and ACT. Didn't really favor either.

[Warriorbird]

I think we've shown a fair example of liberal vs conservative at the least. Not that they haven't seen it before.;)

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by Warriorbird]

Well, the trend as it was when I was in school was leaning towards the ACT, we were informed not to bother with the SAT tests unless the school specifically required it. Thats just my experence with it of course.

[Sean]

Here on the east coast the SATs still dominate. Even though I hear they've changed the point value and are adding an essay portion or something. I took the SATs and the ACTs however. Not that this has anything to do with Liberals vs Conservatives.

Personally I consider myself more Liberal but I do have some Conservative view. On the other hand my brother is very Conservative. It makes dinner conversation very tense.

I'm with you on that tense thing, Two of my best friends... Twins, are both about as far left as you get without being a socialist, so it always makes for interesting conversation.

[Latrinsorm]

School tests suck. Here's why: I could not study at all, waltz in, and get a 95. Kid next to me could study for HOURS, nearly melt his brain in the process, and get a 81. That sucks. Same thing happened on the SAT's. Another thing, nobody wears dungarees anymore. :grr:

My history teacher told me that there are no liberals or conservatives in America, we're all moderates. And he went to Yale (yes, THE Yale) so we constantly made fun of him.

[Satira]

I'm very liberal on most everything, except a very few issues. My step father is the biggest republican you've ever met. During an election year it's incredibly tense.

[TheEschaton]

I do not proofread what I put down in places like this, because I do not feel it either necessary or a good use of my time.

That's the problem, Edine, it shouldn't take you any extra time to proofread. It should be second nature. That is a telling sign of our educational system as it is: write what you can, as sloppily yet as fast as you can, and then correct it when you have the time. The result is poor work because people are too lazy to proofread, whereas if you proofread as you went, it wouldn't take nearly as much time, and you'd come off sounding much more intelligent.

Secondly, if you think the European system is based on "teaching facts", you've got something coming to you. Maybe the Japanese schools are like that, but they also go to school 6 days a week, students are highly stressed, and have huge suicide rates, and they base their futures SOLELY on one test. In Europe, critical thinking is far more important. My friend went to college to be a teacher, and she was taught that kids almost never learn something they're told to remember, about half the time they remember things they're shown, and about three fourths of the time, they'll remember things they've discovered on their own.

As for the tests, I agree. I only took the SATs (I entered college in '99) and all 10 of the schools I applied to, and all 9 I got into, accepted them. All NE schools (except for Georgetown), but as illustrated earlier, the NE is vastly superior to all other regions of the country. ;)

That being said, I've always been a good test taker. I know a kid who had a full scholarship, a 98 GPA, speech and debate national finalist, mock trial national finalist, etc, etc, etc.....and he could only manage a 1250 on the SATs, no matter how hard he tried.

-TheE-

[i remember halloween]

edine, that's because the kid isn't that smart. he was just a hard worker.

there are two factors to success, ability and determination. you don't need both to do better than most because most people don't try very hard.

eh I think you ment TheE

[TheEschaton]

that's because the kid isn't that smart. he was just a hard worker.

Yale didn't seem to think so.


-TheE-

[HarmNone]

Actually, some people suffer so badly from "test anxiety" that they do not do well even if they know the material. There are medications that will help some, but they do not work for everyone. It is never safe to assume that someone is not intelligent just because they do not do well on tests. I have seen that premise proved wrong too many times. :)

HarmNone

[i remember halloween]

1250 on the SATs is pathetic

[Valthissa]

The 'liberal' and 'conservative' labels are not particularly useful as they reduce the discussion to one's placement along a single axis. I have found the following website of some interest when baselining a discussion on politics at our Friday open house.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

C/Valth