GM Tiqal Requesting Input from Sorcerers

[Fallen]

Greetings to all of you. I am GM Tiqal and I wanted to start some discussion here in this folder by asking each of you two questions:

First, what is right with sorcery? Feel free to include as many responses here as you like, I will gladly take them all.

Second, what is wrong with sorcery? I would really like each of you to give me your top 3 gripes about the profession. These can be mechanical issues, issues with messaging, whatever you think makes being a sorcerer less enjoyable than it could/should be.

I will be ducking in frequently reading and collecting responses and I may post more questions, comments, etc. as I feel wont to do.

This is not a promise of action to be taken, as I have no authority to do so. This is my trying to see this profession from the eyes of others who play it, for all of its good and bad points.

If you see that someone else has posted an issue you feel is very serious, feel free to post it as your own. You may include your own examples of the problem or your own views, but this may help emphasize such issues.

Thank you all for your time, I will look forward to reading your responses.

~GM Tiqal, Dev GM in training

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"
.

[StrayRogue]

lol good luck Tiqal.

[Fallen]

I've posted my response. If any are more comfortable posting here, I can go ahead and X-post yours in the appropriate location.

[Asha]

lol good luck Tiqal.

:lol: ^

[Allereli]

doesn't someone ask this question every year?

[ElvenFury]

doesn't someone ask this question every year?
I think it's a hazing thing they do to particularly uniformed GMs-in-training.

[Asha]

I love how he iterates that he has no authority over anything at all and just wants to hear about peoples thoughts on sorcery.
Why has he been introduced / or care suddenly about sorcery if he knows nothing about what everyone in the folder has been saying all this time?
Sounds like either he's considering being the new guru LOL since he know's fuck all and / or he's just stirring the hornets nest since everyone who had enough of being ignored or developed in a way far from what was asked has left.

God knows, either way.. by the time anything anyone WITH authority could implement something EVERYONE does decide upon.. after ALL those impossible factors..
We'll be 80 and PB will be 136.

[Inspire]

I posted, for what it's worth.

[Drew]

Well let's say they made me the ranger guru, even though I play a ranger and have a lot of strong feelings about them, I'd still like to give other rangers a chance to share theirs. Why rag on the guy?

[StrayRogue]

Well let's say they made me the ranger guru, even though I play a ranger and have a lot of strong feelings about them, I'd still like to give other rangers a chance to share theirs. Why rag on the guy?

BECAUSE THE GMS HAVE HATED US SINCE THE 90'S!!!!111!!

[Drew]

BECAUSE THE GMS HAVE HATED US SINCE THE 90'S!!!!111!!

You want to hunt?

[Queleri]

Things I like about Sorcerer as a profession, although I have to admit I'm more interested in the RP than the actual game mechanics so that likely will impact the answers I give.

1. Animate Dead - I love having people walk themselves back to a city and then leaving the hollow gem as a momento/insult.

2. Summoning - being Faendryl, I use this a lot for RP more than actual IG mechanics from the pet but still very cool.

3. Spell Functions - Just in general I think for the most part they're very fitting. Pain, Torment, DC, Implode, Disintigrate, Limb Disruption, Evil Eye, all these are very fitting for the way I play my character, and I make use of all of these spells.

The bad

Lore Training - Specifically Demonology/Necromancy it just seems too high a cost, you have to train in only one or the other. Or at least you can only be really proficient in one or the other. It's a shame that you have to waste one when they are both so fitting to the profession.

Demonology - The pets aren't overly useful or interactive with characters. If they had some special pet/touch commands or if when we issued commands it was visible to other characters that would be nice.

Another issue is I'd like to see rune teachings; I've been around for a year and not seen anyone that teaches runes. Sure the uncommon runes should be uncommon; but do they really need to be extremely rare? At some point it would be nice if either at a specific Demonology rank training; or level training we could at least select one uncommon summon rune for our character to know that made sense. Not one we could teach although that would be cool if you incorporated it into the guild function so that when you achieved said rank you could seek out a guild master to learn the rune (an NPC or PC) with the Rune you wanted to learn.

Adding a few new ones wouldn't hurt either; especially one or two that perhaps assisted in combat? After these demon's essentially destroyed the Undead Army (perhaps that was a major summoning I don't know). As it is the Arashan seems to be the best all purpose pet at least it can take over a web which can be useful in combat as well as performing most of the usual tasks.

Redundant Spells - MD and Distinigrate; Curse/Disease/Nightmare; and even when crossing our spell circles there is a lot of copy spells. E-Wave/Quake, Elemental Dispel, and Spirit Dispel, etc. I'd love to see one or two of these spells get dropped for another defensive or offensive spell that we could use regularly.

Hope that helps.

[Allereli]

Another issue is I'd like to see rune teachings; I've been around for a year and not seen anyone that teaches runes. Sure the uncommon runes should be uncommon; but do they really need to be extremely rare? At some point it would be nice if either at a specific Demonology rank training; or level training we could at least select one uncommon summon rune for our character to know that made sense. Not one we could teach although that would be cool if you incorporated it into the guild function so that when you achieved said rank you could seek out a guild master to learn the rune (an NPC or PC) with the Rune you wanted to learn.

Yeah I suggested something like that 2 years ago.

[Numbers]

Fuck components.

[Warriorbird]

http://popup.lala.com/popup/432627043563509240

[Makkah]

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/10926589/Method+Man+Smokin.jpg

[Danical]

I posted my comments on sorcery from an outsider perspective.

Good-

-phase
-shift
-infusion

Bad-

-not the masters of destruction insofar as mass creature pwnage (bards are, lololololololol)
-maneuver defense.
-lack of bolt AS or bolt spells with awesome effects with marginal AS/DS success.

[Danical]

At least give the guy credit for opening the lines of communication. Maybe it's unplaced faith but he seems to be actually willing, and hopefully able, to engage a very - understandably - vocal and hostile group.

Kudos to V for not being a dick; I was thinking 50/50 on that.

[Allereli]

I have so much weird knowledge about this game, but I logged in today and I don't know how to play anymore.

[Stanley Burrell]

Tiqal


http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/10926589/Method+Man+Smokin.jpg

Slick.

[Swami71]

Posted on the officials


If we're keeping our lists to just 3 each. Then I agree with Gnimble's post.

I'd like to have a spell or ability that helped others more. We really have nothing unique to offer others besides scroll infusion. Group Cloak of shadows or group teleporting would be cool.

Rogues: box picking, armor specialty
Bards: loresinging, gem purifying, group spells
Wizards: Enchanting, awesome spellups, charge item
Warriors: Assessing, warrior sheaths, armor specialty, warcries
Empaths: Healing (very useful and they learn from it)
Clerics: Raise Dead, group spells
Rangers: Resist Nature, great spellups
Paladins: Group spells, armor specialty, Raise dead (not that great though)
Sorcerers: Scroll infusion

When I say spellups I mean unique to the profession. Yes we have MnE and MnS but they are rarely wanted cause there common spells.

Scott
Player of Siphere

[Fallen]

Queleri, your input has been X-posted.

[StrayRogue]

For some reason my trial account can't post on the officials.

Anyway, I logged my sorcerer into today to have a tinker, and these are my thoughts after a significant absence from playing.

Likes:
1: Sorcerer messaging. Really flavourful. Suits the profession probably better than any other.
2: Scroll Infusion.
3: Phase.

Dislikes:
1: Lack of scope. I had a look at my skills and I didn't have any room to play with them. Pre-cap every sorcerer is forced into the same cookie-cutter build. Every other pure (and profession for that matter) has some room for experimentation. Archery clerics, warpuffs, immolation wizards. Sorcerers have no variety whatsoever in their training beyond "do I OHE/Shield or staff".

2: Redundant spells. A good portion of the list I don't use. Not because I'm not trained for it (like an ice mage might not get use of immolate), but because they're just weak, underpowered or ineffective.

3: Demons and animates are just a bit weak considering the spell level and spell investment.

[Asha]

Animates could've been incredible. The components and spell duration just make it such a let down.
Less components and I wouldn't have given up sorcery even with the spell list as weak, underdeveloped and incomplete as it is.

[audioserf]

Requiring spell components, at all, seems to do nothing but increase grind/tedium with no corresponding increase in fun. With as much population shrinkage as they've experienced, and the number of unhappy sorcerors still around, you'd think they'd remove the bullshit spell requirements.

Reading about that is one of the things that stopped me rolling up a sorceror when I came back a few months ago. Just seems like such a pain in the ass. Same reason my mage will never step foot in the Wizard's guild.

[Fallen]

X-posted your reply, Strayrogue. Here is Tiqal's response as so far. I told him that many either avoid, or are unable to go to the officials, but would X-post his request all the same.
----


Thank you to those who have posted so far, this will give me some things to chew over for a bit. I will try to get back with you guys soon with a few thoughts and also to ask for some clarification of a few points.

As well, if this discussion is being carried over on the PC, anyone who wishes to point them over here would be appreciated. Thanks

~GM Tiqal, Dev GM in training.

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"

[TheWitch]

Okay, it's just really ironic that I haven't done more than glance at these boards for months (ya know, since I don't play anymore) and I'm sitting here today with NOTHING to do so I think, let's see if there's anthing going on - and holy crap! There .... sort of might be kind of possibly something going on.

What was right with sorcery:
They have the "cool" factor, in spades. Messaging, trick spells like .... omg, I can't remember the spell number - the eyeball spell, demons, animates, 708 (that one I'll never forget). 740 and 714 are two of the best spells in the game. From about level 60 up, and especially at end-game, sorcery totally rocks.

What was wrong with sorcery:

1. So much of that "cool" factor is marred by long-standing bugs, game design decisions that ONLY apply to sorcerers and just plain holes in functionality. 730 is an awesome spell, IF you have an auction quality item. If not, it's barely worth casting because of the componentry and duration. Remote 718 doesn't count as a kill, "runs away" 717 doesn't count as a kill, demons carrying eyeballs give inconsistent messages, penalties exist on sorcerer spells based on resistances to realms of magic they're not part of (Ithzir mental). As I was leaving, 713 got whapped with the nerf bat for basically the only creatures it was worth using on, griffins and aivrens. The component load for sorcerer spells is cumulatively ridiculous. The guilds don't have workshops. Some of this may have been corrected since I left.....

2. Massive lore implementation failure. Two core hunting spells, 702 and 705, have NO lore based power-up. 719 has elemental lore power-ups, and something (I forget what) has spirit lore power ups - 111? AND, there's sorcerous lores. So, how many lores does that leave a sorcerer trying to train in? Seven? Did they ever finish the elemental lore review? On top of which, I recall Virilneus being the authority on this, but the sorcerer costs for lore and magic training are punative accross the board.

3. The Plink Factor. 702 and 705 are especially bad, I can remember underhunting by 60+ levels ..... and plinking with those spells. With a lore power up, that could change but even then there is plinkiness via far, far too much DOT and disabling in the list, level restrictions on maneuver spells like 720, CS penalties for the 100's and 400's that are vitually impossible to train away until far past cap, the lack of a mass CS spell (how many years did we beg for mass DC?) OR even a sorcerous AS spell.

I've been gone almost a year, some of these issues may have been addressed - but I doubt it.

And that was my biggest problem for the last three years I played - total and complete lack of development OR maintanence. I believe it took TWO YEARS (!!!) for someone to check out an issue players were reporting with imbeddable quake wands working better than the sorcerer-cast version. When Strathspey finally did? There was a big fat mistake in it, easily fixed.

Hopefully, Tiqal won't get scared off and some of these issues can get dealt with. Good luck guys, and if you want to post this on the officials, Evarin, be my guest.

[Carblin]

I'd have to agree with the "plink" statements. MD used to be OP, so it needed some adjustment. But as it stands now, it's extremely weak.

My memory of high level sorcerer hunting was :

A) Finding a critter that don't do CM based attacks and "plinking" them to death.

B) Dieing to a CM based attack while trying to "plink" to death.

C) Imploding, it failing to kill multiple times, running OOM and having to leave the hunting area.

[Queleri]

Just a couple of notes; I stopped playing originally about 8 years ago before the GSIII/GSIV conversion when they had changed the CS calculation which had really killed my training and a few other sorcerer nerfs at about that time. I think they reduced the crit "weighting" for DC or MD or something, can't remember.

Either way; I've been mostly impressed with the profession since I came back. Animate Dead, Summoning, and Scroll Infussion were all new to me. I was also glad to see limb break was tossed and we had Disintegrate instead. All good changes I think.

As far as those spells goes the components for Animate Dead I LOVE personally. It makes it more immersive for my character from an RP standpoint to have to aquire these things, and I've enjoyed that RP very much. I don't really have a problem with that.

The Runestones for Summoning however can be a bit of a pain; firstly I'd rather they were written into a book and performed the same way as the rift spell. Draw summoning circle, draw rune, cast at rune. This would tie it in much better with the provided history and consolidate on components with planar rift as well. Would be much better for RP purposes seeing as how I already go to the trouble of drawing a circle when I summon anyway.

Unfortunately Scroll Infussion is so complicated I really haven't delved into that yet since I've gotten back (Only been back for about a year now) so I can't comment on this aspect.

[Fallen]

Hopefully, Tiqal won't get scared off and some of these issues can get dealt with. Good luck guys, and if you want to post this on the officials, Evarin, be my guest.

Done and Done. This would be a good month to sign up, R, if just for the month. Increased treasure drop rates, and another giftbox enhancive, along with a 1x a day transport item. Pretty groovy.

[TheWitch]

What month is that, sho'nah, the one that ends in five days?:)

I suppose I could go lurk on the officials.....

....lurk lurk lurk lurk......

Tempting. Very, very tempting.

[Kithus]

At the very least you should get your free trial and grab your giftbox.

[Allereli]

What month is that, sho'nah, the one that ends in five days?:)

I suppose I could go lurk on the officials.....

....lurk lurk lurk lurk......

Tempting. Very, very tempting.

you still get 30 days if you sign up by March 31. Might as well get the free giftbox and cancel

[Numbers]

Here's my Sorcerer gripes. I haven't played Hadiar ever since I closed my account a couple of years ago, but even then I had pretty much switched exclusively to my Ranger due to frustrations with Sorcerer development.

1. Sorcerers are supposed to be the masters of destruction. Ever since DC and MD were nerfed to oblivion, they haven't been. Not even close. The excuse back then was that those spells were overpowered, which was true but excusable, since Sorcerers had NOTHING else to use. What they've been given in exchange has been pathetic, at best, and downright broken at worst.

2. From a game balance perspective, having access to two minor circles should make the Sorcerer circle more powerful in exchange.

3. Nilven, while his heart was in the right place, gave in way too easily to Warden. As a result, minor summoning is worthless. As a result, animate dead is barely usable without an auction quality item or ridiculous lore training. Both spells had so much potential, but were neutered from the start by their absurd component, lore, and balance requirements. Lores should make a spell MORE powerful... not determine whether you can even cast the damn thing or not.

4. Illusions are moronic. 'Nuff said.

5. As has been mentioned, Sorcerers have been changed from some of the most efficient killers in the game, to plinkers. Plink away with MD. Plink away with Disintegrate. And hope that something doesn't destroy you with a cheat maneuver in the process.

There's two ways to fix Sorcerers, as far as I see it.

A. Remove or drastically reduce the component requirements. Remove or drastically reduce the skill requirements for certain spells. Remove or drastically reduce the lore requirements for certain spells. Add more attack options, or considerably improve the existing ones.

B. Toss out the past seven years of development, restore MD and DC to how they used to be, and start from scratch.

I'd be in favor of option B.

[Fallen]

Update: I have gone through all of the posts in this thread up to this point and I am trying to distill all of the good and the bad into rather more concise summaries of those statements. I will also be commenting on certain aspects suffering from mixed reviews and I will seek to clarify certain of these points to better tease out the good from the bad, or vice versa.

Stay Tuned!

~GM Tiqal, masochist GM in training...

.

[StrayRogue]

Thanks for posting Fallen. I took a look at the thread on the officials: man how things have changed. It used to be such a request would recieve about 100 posts in the course of an hour, half of them with ASPEN flaming everyone who didn't agree with him.

[Fallen]

To reiterate my original post, I am here on a fact-finding mission. I cannot guarantee any changes now, in the near future, or ever but I can guarantee that I will listen to what is said and do my best to record the information. "I cannot guarantee it will bring about any changes." Remember these words.

Now, for my summary.



Good:



-General "flavor" of sorcery. Messaging and variety of effects produced seems to be in line with what everyone thinks sorcery should be. At the very least, no one said that they felt these things were lacking.

-740. People like it, they really like it! I can try asking about whatever happened to the intermediate range chalk. Personally, I was interested in the idea myself.

-714. Generally agreed upon to be a useful spell and one of the upshots of the profession.



Bad:



There are really too many aspects here that are very much intertwined. Solving or improving some issues might alleviate others. To note:

-Weak spells and lack of lore implementation (or proper lore implementation) can lead to problems with mana.

-Spell redundancies leave less slots available for variety, thus reducing viable options, making the profession less fun to play.

-High creature TDs contribute to heavy spell overtraining, further decreasing viable training options.

A big problem here is identifying root concerns versus the symptoms of those concerns. Also, would it be more fun to play a sorcerer who quickly killed everything if none of the other underlying concerns were addressed? Would this just make them more efficient killers but leave them boring?



Uncontested:



-Componentry load. This was one of the single most oft-cited complaints among posts up to now.

-Lore Implementation. No one seems to be arguing that there aren't short-comings here, although the nature of the deficiencies looks to be debatable.

-More "oomph!" is desired from the profession and some of you are addressing or have addressed your ideas of what you think might be done to fix the issue.



Mixed Bag:



-730.

-725.

Both of these seem to be seen as having a great deal of RP utility and a lot of potential, although there seems to be much debate as to how much utility they really have vs. potential. I plan on focusing some discussion on those two spells specifically in the near future, so you might want to hold on detailed analysis for the moment.



As a general summary of issues and limited analysis of such, do you think this appropriately condenses the complaints of this thread? Is there anything you think really needs its own spot here, or could this stand on its own?

Any thoughts, questions or comments are welcome right now.

Thanks.

~GM Tiqal, Dev GM in training.

"You're in Tamzyrr now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a wand in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Hochstib?"
Me, paraphrasing the Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"



.

[Queleri]

Thanks Fallen I think that's a pretty good analysis of what has been said thus far.

[Fallen]

I agree, though I did mention tweaks to Sacrifice likely being worth its own bullet/talking point.

[Androidpk]

Bring back the old school mana disrupt and DC.

[Queleri]

I agree, though I did mention tweaks to Sacrifice likely being worth its own bullet/talking point.

Definately; we need some way to tell if the critter is even close to being able to be sacrificed. I've been trying for days to sacrifice and keep failing, and yet if I cast another MD the critter dies and I get no mana. It's very frusterating.

[zhelas]

Sorry for being a bit late, but I am heading back to College since I am changing careers.

Good of Sorcerery:

I like the fact that we are no longer the one trick ponies of GSIII. It use to be 702 would be the spell of choice until you could cast 719. And really that was all you needed to do while you tripled trained in the Sorcerery Circle.

Returning after the 5 years absence: Today we do have more choices. 702, 705, 719, Focused 720, 730, 111 and 118.
I remember thinking WOW animate dead. Very cool.

717 Bug Fix that will provide a chance for loot to drop if the creature runs away never to be heard from again.

The Bad of Sorcerery:

The Implementation of some of the spells and the bugs that still exist today. MANY of the sorcerers have gotten frustrated of the hair splitting when we have asked for minor changes. The constant head banging against the wall when a bug is discovered but we are told that it is working as inteneded. Sure it works as intended for mechanics based in 1995 to 1998.

There have been many posts showing the bugs. A lot of my sorcerer collegues have gotten frustrated because our posts seem to fall on deaf ears.

I won't go through all the spells and lack of lores influencing our spells. Evarin, V, Rheisia Witch and many of my Sorcerer Collegues have explained those clearly.

The TD boost Creatures get against Sorcerer Spells. This an outdated dinosaur that exists today. It was implemented when the staff realized that Sorcerers were way over powered back in GS3 days. They increased the TDs versus Sorcerers because folks were triple training in the Sorcerer circle. All it did was encourage more triple training. High CS = Win (Sorcerers are still based off of this concept) Since the change to GS4 there are deminishing returns for overtraining in just one circle. 702 has been nerfed and 719 is now situational (not to mention the elemental lore element) Our spells don't do the damage they use to. So why keep the outdated TD penalty?

Alchemy - Why is this being listed as the Bad of Sorcerery? Alchemy is being used as the bandaid to fix some of our spells. Example: To heal an animate, unless you have an auction wand, you have to spend HOURS and HOURS of mind numbing reps and collecting of components so you can learn to make the potions that will heal minor wounds on your animate. To be honest, I would rather go get another animate than worry about an alchemy potion. Alchemy should not be used to FIX spells or add features that should have already existed.

Conclusion:

I don't regret chosing a Sorcerer as my main character. I wish there was just a clear vision for the profession.

Peace
Zhelas


For a start it would be nice of them just to fix the Bugs. And for folks to stop splitting hairs and resplitting hairs just to validate that a "Feature" is working as intended.

Peace

[zhelas]

What month is that, sho'nah, the one that ends in five days?:)

I suppose I could go lurk on the officials.....

....lurk lurk lurk lurk......

Tempting. Very, very tempting.

YES!

I miss Betty Frickin Crocker's Blueberry Muffins!

Peace

[TheWitch]

LOL@muffins. That was classic.

I ended up doing the free month trial thingy to get the gift box (sweet), which does NOT provide posting rights on the forums - can read em, can't reply. I'm not noticing an avalanche of treasure, but whatever.

Rathboner made a very good point on the officials, though, about the double bind created by the lack of mana to effectively use our spells. We have all these cool spells, but can't use them until at least mid-game. CoL shouldn't be the must-join society for sorcerers and so while I think the staggered cool-down for sacrifice Strathspey has suggested a while back (20 min, full return, 10 min, half return, etc) and being able to sense a target are good, I think there really has to be a fundamental change to how sorcerer mana is trained and/or calculated - along with powerups to 702 and 705 via training.

I'm with you, Zhelas, on the bugs. There are just too many, in too many spells, or as you say - they're not called bugs but features via hair-splitting. The bogus Ithzir resistance to our spells is already back on my nerves after playing for about an hour (!!!). All of this hair-splitting that was intended to create the need for spells beyond 702 and 719 in this case leads directly the exclusive use of ..... 719.

But I'm coming down on the side right now of the lore and mana issues being paramount, and that it is SPECIFICALLY paramount for levels under about 50. There probably needs to be a recalibration of lore effects as people have mentioned, to front load the benefit more (and in the case of 702/705, deliver a benefit at all). Get elemental lore OUT of DC entirely, and have vaired effects based on demonology or necromancy training - and make it multi target via channeling. Crazy, I know.

Strathspey has indicated that a sorcery lore review would follow the elemental lore review, and unless I missed something playing catch up - the elemental lore review STILL isn't finished. Maybe Tiqal's arrival on the scene indicates we no longer have to wait for that to finished? One can hope, especially since it was made abundantly clear that it would not affect the 700 circle anyway.

There were also supposed to be moonflowers in Ta'Illistim, mid-range chalk for 740, Grim trolls' level counting as true level for AD not capped at MTK level, and many other reasonable things that I'm probably forgetting that we asked for, Strathspey agreed were decent ideas that should be doable and we never heard another peep about them.

[Fallen]

I am just going to go through and start responding to posts in as organized a fashion as I can manage.


Evarin, post 6392:

>"...a lack of a damage-based booster to 702 and 705... adding increased accessability to Animate Dead... Minor Summoning... bolt based spell... mass CS based spell..."

These are all valid points, certainly things that should be looked at, but they're also more specific than what I'm trying to gather, currently. Everything I am working on right now is a general overview. Addressing the specific concerns within each segment of the overview is not my current aim.

>"... I think specific fixes for the Sacrifice ability are in order, or atleast a talking point devoted to it."

Consider it added. (I'll be posting another version and asking for feedback again, soon-ish)


V., post 6395:

>"When discussing "lore problems" you need to specify if you're talking about Sorceror Lore Problems, or 700 Circle Lore Problems."

Again, this is a general overview and those are a bit less general. Also, both were mentioned repeatedly, so I have decided to consolidate that whole thing into one big point, to be dissected later.

>"...sorcerer use of the 100s and 400s I think deserves it's own spot on the list."

Yeah, leaving that off was merely an oversight on my part. (I swear I had it triple starred in my assessment.) This is why I am asking for the feedback and presenting everything like I am. Consider it added, as well.


Rathboner, post 6396:

>"I don't think you have this right. Sorcerers have huge variety available to them. What they don't have is variety in training paths."

One of the complaints that surfaced a few times was sorcerers lacking variety in their hunting style, as well as training paths. I did not simply pull this out of the aether. While I cannot speak for those posters who made such complaints, I can express my understanding of their statements.

If you are to have a dozen different spells that all do, essentially, the same thing, do you really have variety? You have a lot of things you can choose to use, but you're likely going to go for the same one or two with the greatest degree of regularity, either because they are mechanically superior from a cost vs. benefit standpoint, or because they just suit your character and/or your ideas of sorcery.

Sorcerers have a great many ways to accomplish the same essential outcomes, but I'm not sure that can be construed as variety. If you go out to dinner and are told you can have anything you want to eat, as long as it is steak and a potato side dish, that might suit you just fine. There are many different kinds of steak, that could give you lots of choices, but what if you don't want steak? Maybe you would like rice instead.

>"...clerics have 302, which is a watered down version of 702..."

I'm not entirely certain as to the veracity of this claim but I can do extensive testing to determine that, so I may seek to ascertain that in the future.

>Various other points.

The mana issues seem to be a sort of sticking point. Some people say they can hunt quite mana efficiently with a sorcerer, some say they are extremely mana intensive. The truth is that it depends upon the situation and that level, as well as hunting ground, plays a big part in this. Other factors, low damage and high TDs among them, can greatly contribute to mana inefficiencies as well.


Zhelas, post 6398:

>Various points.

I am going to go ahead and add "Profession bugs and features" as a concern on my general outline. I think it might be too broad, but it is a valid point. I just worry that it could be a sort of catchall for things missed, which causes problems of its own.

I am considering your "Alchemy" point to fall under componentry and an as-yet undefined bullet point related to the process required to make use of some spells. (714 and 730, most notably.)


I'm not done yet, so stay tuned. If I skip(ped) over commenting upon your post, don't take it personally, I just may not have felt that it needed direct response. Feel free to email me if you wish to address something like that directly.

~GM Tiqal.

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"

.

[Fallen]

Good:


-General "flavor" of sorcery. Messaging and variety of effects produced seems to be in line with what everyone thinks sorcery should be. At the very least, no one said that they felt these things were lacking.

-740. People like it, they really like it! I can try asking about whatever happened to the intermediate range chalk. Personally, I was interested in the idea myself.

-714. Generally agreed upon to be a useful spell and one of the upshots of the profession.

-Disabler style can be highly effective on a wide range of critters.


Bad:


-Problems with mana. Disabler style is versatile but can be exceedingly mana intensive.

-Spell redundancies. Create gaps and limit power by filling spell slots that could be used to address problems.

-High creature TDs. Creature TDs often require more emphasis on spell over-training.

-Lack of alternative training paths. Sorcery has the fewest viable training paths, particularly as levels increase.

-Componentry/Prep work. Too many components are needed and preparation for some spells (730 and 714 most notably) is very tedious.

-Lore Implementation. This is lacking all around, from lack or lore tie-ins in the 700s to a general lack of effectiveness of sorcerer lores, to the expense of all lores for sorcerers.

-More "oomph!" is desired from the profession. This includes damage being tweaked on existing spells, new spells being implemented, bolt spells, self-buffs, etc.

-Lack of any sort of maneuver defense. This leads to unavoidable and messy deaths.

-Sacrifice. As the only mana recovery ability sorcerers have, it needs to be more effective than it is.

-100s and 400s. Inherent CS defecit in these two circles makes warding infeasible, even post-cap.


Mixed Bag:


-730/725. Both of these seem to be seen as having a great deal of RP utility and a lot of potential, although there seems to be much debate as to how much utility they really have vs. potential. I plan on focusing some discussion on those two spells specifically in the near future, so you might want to hold on detailed analysis for the moment.

-"Profession Bugs and Features." Will need to persue most of these issues individually.
*"Mental" resistances.
*Lack of moonflowers in Eastern Elanith. (GM Itzel said she would ask about this.)
*Troll blood for trolls of higher level than MTKs.
*TP Costs.
*"Uncommon" rune rarity.


All right, I'm hoping I managed to catch everything this time, but everyone should feel free to comment upon the current version of this assessment. If there is anything you feel is missing or misrepresented, speak up.

~GM Tiqal, Harbinger of Puppies.

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"
*

.

[whiteflash]

Was just browsing the AG badge charge costs. Another way we get hosed:

Base stat maxes at +10.
1) Strength - 17600
2) Constitution - 13200
3) Dexterity - 13200
4) Agility - 13200
5) Discipline - 13200
6) Aura - 26400
7) Logic - 8800
8) Intuition - 8800
9) Wisdom - 22000
10) Influence - 8800

Awesome, our two main stats are by far and away the most expensive to charge up. Thanks guys.

[TheWitch]

Evarin, I can't post on the officials because of trial account status.

Could you include the issue regarding being able to hand animates weapons, and have them hand them to us, instead of having to drop them and pick them up, in any further conversations Tiqal initiates?

Additionally, there is still no "two minute warning" on animates like there is with demons.

Another close call yesterday with the awl-pike got me all aggravated about these things again, since they were two of the things Strat said were completely doable - and never got done. In over a year, probably closer to three.

Thanks.

[crb]

Was just browsing the AG badge charge costs. Another way we get hosed:

Base stat maxes at +10.
1) Strength - 17600
2) Constitution - 13200
3) Dexterity - 13200
4) Agility - 13200
5) Discipline - 13200
6) Aura - 26400
7) Logic - 8800
8) Intuition - 8800
9) Wisdom - 22000
10) Influence - 8800

Awesome, our two main stats are by far and away the most expensive to charge up. Thanks guys.


Ya, I noticed that too.

[Fallen]

Evarin, I can't post on the officials because of trial account status.

Could you include the issue regarding being able to hand animates weapons, and have them hand them to us, instead of having to drop them and pick them up, in any further conversations Tiqal initiates?

Additionally, there is still no "two minute warning" on animates like there is with demons.

Another close call yesterday with the awl-pike got me all aggravated about these things again, since they were two of the things Strat said were completely doable - and never got done. In over a year, probably closer to three.

Thanks.

I will if he pops up again. Mayhaps the other GMs told him to knock it off.

[Fallen]

All right, while I'm waiting to hear back on a few things, how about I post another query? Hmm?

I'm looking for opinions on 725 and 730. Feel free to post about either one or both, but I would like to keep this somewhat organized so that I can refer back to things and collect the data much like the previous line of inquiry.

NOTE: Please read entire post before posting your replies. Using the featured format below, or some equally organized format, will make it easier for me to read and organize data. I will not threaten to ignore all posts not in some organized format, but I cannot guarantee that I will do more than skim it, either. The more work it is for me to read, the less I'm likely to read.

725:

a) Positive feedback for certain features, even if they are features that currently exist that you think need to be pushed up. Consideration of baseline, nominal and optimal numbers will go a long way here. (e.g. You think that the mana holding functions of demons are good, but feel that there needs to be more differentiation with the low end of the scale holding a base of 5 mana, 25 mana with nominal training and 40 with optimal training and the high end being 15/55/90.)

b) Negative feedback for existing features of the spell or demons. This is the best place to suggest features you would prefer to see eliminated or replaced as opposed to trying to make something of it.

c) Bugs with the current spell. This may include things you think may be bugs or simply don't seem to operate properly within the given design.

d) New features, additions, major overhauls/replacements to existing features. This could be additions to the spell itself, new benefits from existing demons, new demons, or new features you think you would like to see from demons that don't exist.

e) Anything you think of that doesn't fit with one of the previous 4 categories.

730: Follow the above template.

~GM Tiqal.

"You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer."
"You brought a sandwich?"
"Who do I look like, Kissinger?"
~The Dresden Files, Jim Butcher. "Turn Coat"
.

[Fallen]

Feel free to post here, and I will X-post for you if you dont want to bother with the officials.

[pabstblueribbon]

I can't take this GM seriously. Every time I read his name I see Tickle....

[Allereli]

d) let them eat again w/o dropping illusions. Let illusions be permanent for masters.

[Fallen]

I put it up for you, A.

[Stanley Burrell]

GM Tiqal Requesting Input from Sorcerers

Wow. I'll try and make an MS-Paint.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8476/requestinginput.png

[Allereli]

Thanks, E.

omg I love playing Lemmings.

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, they're just about pretty much the greatest thing ever, I guess.

[Queleri]

Here are some of my thoughts on 725, I'm still working on 730.

725:

a) Positive feedback for certain features, even if they are features that currently exist that you think need to be pushed up. Consideration of baseline, nominal and optimal numbers will go a long way here. (e.g. You think that the mana holding functions of demons are good, but feel that there needs to be more differentiation with the low end of the scale holding a base of 5 mana, 25 mana with nominal training and 40 with optimal training and the high end being 15/55/90.)
Positive feedback is the overall…what’s the word…theme? They all seem very sorcery, Imp’s, snake, wolf, and spider like creatures all seem very fitting. Now if only they had personality.

The component requirements for this aren’t terrible either. You only need to carry one runestone for summoning, and perhaps one to renew your link, the other items can always be kept in a locker until they’re needed to produce new runestones.

I would like to see some of their abilities adjusted, but also make it more demon specific to offer differentiation in the creatures. Take the valance they’re summoned from into account for this where possible. There is already some slight differentiation but I’d like to see this further defined. Sorry this maybe should go under the catch all section so I’ll continue thoughts on this there.

b) Negative feedback for existing features of the spell or demons. This is the best place to suggest features you would prefer to see eliminated or replaced as opposed to trying to make something of it

My biggest complaint here is mastering Illusions; at the moment it takes me about a month to gain each rank. I’ve been working on it for nearly a year and have 13 ranks only. It’s very difficult finding partners to train with, especially sorcerer’s that know the advanced illusions to teach you. If something could be done about this it would be greatly appreciated.

Learning Uncommon Runes should not be so difficult. Offer some mechanism for us to learn uncommon runes. Either through the guild, a specific amount of lore training, level, something…every sorcerer should be able to learn at least one uncommon rune so they can summon their demon of choice. Having it based on availability to attend specific events or being online at the right time to catch a merchant is just too difficult. To me this would greatly increase my enjoyment of the spell, this would be in my top 3 of things I’d like to see changed to be honest. Again this goes to the fact I enjoy RP’ing being a sorcerer a great deal and this would just greatly help my character’s RP more than perhaps the practicality would benefit from a game mechanics stand point at this point.

c) Bugs with the current spell. This may include things you think may be bugs or simply don't seem to operate properly within the given design.

Not sure I’m aware of any ‘bugs’ really.

d) New features, additions, major overhauls/replacements to existing features. This could be additions to the spell itself, new benefits from existing demons, new demons, or new features you think you would like to see from demons that don't exist.

One major thing I’d like to see is further differentiation among the demons. A wider gap in what each is capable of. For example take the Imp, they have a natural ability to shape shift, given that ability why not allow beginning sorcerer’s the ability to force the imp to shape shift so that they can keep a demon in town without having had to master illusions. This will give an option to young sorcerers so they can get a benefit from the spell much earlier than they can now. Its difficult mastering Illusions and so not being able to keep it with us at all times takes away from the usefulness of the spell.

Perhaps further increase/decrease the abilities of existing pets as well, while some can store and some can’t store mana further differentiation in these skills would be nice to give an added reason for using different demons.

On that note I’m not sure about other ‘pets’ abilities in the game either wizard pets, rangers, or the cleric/empathy servant creatures. However this might be a way to help address some of the lore issues. I’d like to see some demons that are elementally aligned, fire/earth/ice/air or even just spirit/elemental perhaps having the creature out increases the lore benefit marginally or the CS to make using those spheres more reasonable for sorcerers. Even if any benefit is unreasonable it would be nice to see demons of this nature added either through minor or major summoning.

Would like to see demon’s more interactive as well. When we tell mdem <verb> it would be nice if there were a visible display indicating that we’d instructed it and that they were adhering to it. Similarly a touch, pet, etc. verb animation would be nice. I wouldn’t mind if this were based on Demonology ranks either, the more ranks the more interactive you could be with the demon and perhaps other people could be with the demon. Where as perhaps the minimum training would only allow the summoning sorcerer to ‘touch it’ perhaps with additional lore training someone else in their group or room could touch it, even if it has a generic response like “snaps it’s maw at <xxxx>”.

Hope this helps.

[Queleri]

730: Follow the above template.

a) Positive feedback for certain features, even if they are features that currently exist.

You know as far as 730 goes I really like pretty much everything. I think again the Lore is a bit too cost intensive (that is lore trainings to summon creatures or players of the same level). I don’t have an issue with the component requirements for this spell, frankly I enjoy that aspect of the spell from an RP perspective, gathering the moon flowers, and blood, etc. It’s just the cost of the training that is a turn off. My character prefers summoning (being Faendryl and all) so I am unable to utilize this spell as much as I would if the cost’s to both lores were reduced to a reasonable level.

That being said I really only use this spell to animate PC’s in order to have them walk back to town themselves. I’ve never really used an animate for anything other than that. When I have animated NPC’s like bandits they don’t seem all that useful. If they attacked more, or if the ‘guard’ command meant they would attack if the master was attacked I think it would be much more useful. Especially if we could have them guard other people too, that would be great.

b) Anything you think of that doesn't fit with one of the previous 4 categories.

What would be more fun and useful would be to have the necromancy lore determine how many animates a sorcerer could control. So that if you had say 50 ranks of Necromantic lore you could have two animates of your current level instead of just one, etc. A necromancer I think would often have more than just one animate, they typically have several as servants so this would add that flavor to the profession.

c) Bugs with the current spell. This may include things you think may be bugs or simply don't seem to operate properly within the given design.

Some mechanism for knowing when the animates time is expiring so we could refresh the link or something. That’s the only real killer I think.

[Fallen]

X-posted for you, Q.

[Queleri]

X-posted for you, Q.

Thank you.

[TheWitch]

I haven't been reading the officials, is there anything new on this?

[Fallen]

No.

[drigore]

Demons aren't allowed in Grimswarm camps.

[crb]

Demons aren't allowed in Grimswarm camps.

...That makes perfect sense... because of course, Grimswarm are angry about Despana. Yes.

[Fallen]

My account closes on the 24th. If you need something x-posted before then, throw it up now.