TWC rogue

[Showal]

I'm developing a new character. I'm looking to have him be a two weapon dagger user. This way, I get two attacks every three seconds.

This is my training so far:

(at level 10), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 96 22
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 78 17
Edged Weapons......................| 96 22
Ambush.............................| 96 22
Physical Fitness...................| 96 22
Dodging............................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 40 8
Stalking and Hiding................| 122 31
Perception.........................| 122 31
Pickpocketing......................| 93 21

Do I need to 2x in TWC? Is this even viable? Do I need a main gauche to get a decent DS?

[StrayRogue]

You could drop down to 1.5x or 1x TWC and still do pretty well.

[m444w]

I wouldn't recommend going below 1.5x, you'll see too many failed offhand strikes. also, there are some levels were daggers may just not cut it... but they are certainly viable for a great many levels

[caelric]

I have a TWC OHE warmage. Obviously, he can only 1x in TWC. He hunts grims, and against like level, he gets the 'fail to find an opening' about 1/3 of the time. Since he is swinging with a 1 sec RT under haste, this doesn't hurt too much, but if he were not hasted, it would not be worth it.

So, what does that mean? I recommend more than 1x in TWC. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would try for 1.5X, or better.

And screw the main gauche, if you are going to use two weapons, make them the heaviest OHE's you can find, that will keep your RT reasonable. My warmage uses dual falchions. On the other hand, if daggers is your preference, you are not choosing the heaviest ones, so maybe go with the MG for the DS bonus.

Final recommendation: find something that flares. Lots of strikes means lots of chances to flare.

[Showal]

The heavier the two weapons, the higher the DS?

[caelric]

The heavier the weapons, the higher the damage factor, aka DF. See the OHE page on Krakiipedia for listings of DF's

[petroglyph]

If it's specifically the "look" of two daggers that's drawing you, just pick up a main-gauche based weapon with the alt noun "left-handed dagger." I think they technically removed it from the valid alt names list a while ago, but there should still be some floating around. I think the small blades stand in Solhaven sells em (if it's still there, post destruction and rebirth).

[Showal]

The heavier the weapons, the higher the damage factor, aka DF. See the OHE page on Krakiipedia for listings of DF's

I'm not too worried about the damage factor, I'm going mainly for speed. I guess, however, I also like the "look" of a two dagger wielding rogue. If I'm not wrong, using a main-gauche based dagger would raise my RT from 3 seconds to 4. I'm reading that right, right?

I hide pretty well and I seem to do well with ambushing, at least against like level characters.

Maybe I'll drop down my TWC to 1.5x.

[Stanley Burrell]

Do not use a main-gauche/separate OHE base for your offhand unless you've got a serious amount of CM to WSpec two separate weapon bases to 5 and can hunt in an area where that sacrifice, in lieu of forfeiting other CMANs, is plausible (Since you're < 40'ish, it shouldn't really matter that much though.)

Also, off-hand weapon weight will directly affect your roundtime while you are TWC'ing. Since you're going to use daggers, it shouldn't be much of an issue -- And if you're super dedicated, you could find some lightened-to-the-max imflass/veniom whatever dagger to switch up with if you want to stay on the battlefield.

P.S. Truehand.

[Showal]

Truehand and Wspec seem like they'd be perfect for this character.

[Stanley Burrell]

Your DEX isn't retarded, right?

[Showal]

Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 93 (26) ... 93 (26)
Constitution (CON): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Aura (AUR): 72 (11) ... 72 (11)
Logic (LOG): 55 (7) ... 55 (7)
Intuition (INT): 57 (8) ... 57 (8)
Wisdom (WIS): 61 (5) ... 61 (5)
Influence (INF): 35 (-7) ... 35 (-7)
Mana: 3

I actually had no idea how to work the stats for this character.

[Stanley Burrell]

Aite.

[Showal]

I said "I actually had no idea..." like I would impress you with my poor stat allocation. I meant "I had and still have no idea what I'm doing with my stat allocation"

[Stanley Burrell]

It was a good 'Aite' I spoketh. Charisma/Influence/whatever you want to call it is pure BS for a square. Warcries, aside.

[DoctorUnne]

I assume you'll have enough points for it once you get your armor and magic item use where you want them to be, but in my opinion any TWC rogue who is not a locksmith should be 3x dodge.

[Showal]

No need for dodge when you kill everything so quick like me.

You're right though, I'm trying to figure out how to raise that.

[LMingrone]

My TWC Gnome rogue never really had many problems up to level 33, but needed help with haste and maybe a ewave when FoF kicked in. I built him as a picker mostly, but even with crappy weapons he never really had much trouble if you pick the right things to hunt. I'm guessing at later levels it becomes a lot tougher trying to keep up with TWC, OHE, CMANs, armor, along with everything else.

I had fun playing the build, but am not sure how it holds up at higher levels. I've always wanted to get a huge collection of Feras daggers, or two Coreasine weapons.

I never made the build thinking it would be a power hunter, but it is pretty fun. And we always have fixskills to change if it becomes unviable at later levels.

Did they fix the bug yet where you can't "ambush head" on mobs that are actually shorter than you? That used to really piss me off.

[DoctorUnne]

It's most certainly viable at higher levels against any type of creature, although it is definitely easier if you don't lockpick and can spend the points on things like 3x dodge, 2x CM, MOC, heavy armor, 2x PF, etc. As a locksmith you probably have to pick one or two of the above luxuries pre-cap but without locksmithing you can afford most of them.

You can ambush head now on small creatures I'm pretty sure but there is just an aiming penalty when doing so.

And Showal, I assume you were just joking, but there will be countless times when you will be caught in the open no matter how proficient you are at killing things and 3x dodge makes a big difference.

[Showal]

It's most certainly viable at higher levels against any type of creature, although it is definitely easier if you don't lockpick and can spend the points on things like 3x dodge, 2x CM, MOC, heavy armor, 2x PF, etc. As a locksmith you probably have to pick one or two of the above luxuries pre-cap but without locksmithing you can afford most of them.

You can ambush head now on small creatures I'm pretty sure but there is just an aiming penalty when doing so.

And Showal, I assume you were just joking, but there will be countless times when you will be caught in the open no matter how proficient you are at killing things and 3x dodge makes a big difference.

Yes, I was just joking.

[DaCapn]

For TWC I used a handaxe and a short sword. I spent most of my time against slower creatures (giants and the like) so it was a fine combo. I think you can shave another second dual wielding short swords. Fast enough and a lot heavier than daggers.

The only problem with short swords is that they do 3 types of damage which sucks for crit-kills. That's part of the reason I like handaxes, since they're slash/crush body parts don't have wildly varying thresholds for one-shot kills. Plus, handaxes have good DF and AvD.

Of course, one advantage to training in OHE is that you have access to a huge range of weapons that you can change up for any occasion.


My TWC Gnome rogue never really had many problems up to level 33, but needed help with haste and maybe a ewave when FoF kicked in. I built him as a picker mostly, but even with crappy weapons he never really had much trouble if you pick the right things to hunt. I'm guessing at later levels it becomes a lot tougher trying to keep up with TWC, OHE, CMANs, armor, along with everything else.

I had fun playing the build, but am not sure how it holds up at higher levels. I've always wanted to get a huge collection of Feras daggers, or two Coreasine weapons.

I never made the build thinking it would be a power hunter, but it is pretty fun. And we always have fixskills to change if it becomes unviable at later levels.

That's around the same level I used a fixskills to make my TWC gnome into a THW ambusher with 410 (kicks the crap out of TWC in my opinion).


Did they fix the bug yet where you can't "ambush head" on mobs that are actually shorter than you? That used to really piss me off.

I never got the feeling that this was a bug. It was discussed extensively on the officials when the change rolled out. No one spoke in favor of it and I'm pretty sure it was declared as intentional. This was probably 5 or so years ago.

One day (within the past year) Grendeg posted and said "hey, I don't think this is a good idea." A GM replied to the tune of "yeah, why don't I fix that" and it turned around within a week or something.

[Gibreficul]

Ildran was good at quickly resolving issues.

Posted via motodroid.

[DaCapn]

Ildran was good at quickly resolving issues.

Posted via motodroid.

Well nothing was done during the initial flurry of outrage and then [b]years later[b] when it was brought up again it was quickly resolved.

The announcement was made by Mestys. I don't know if he does dev or was just the messenger for the change. I don't think it was Ildran in any case since he had already stepped down as rogue guru after being essentially MIA for 6-some months.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=1&topic=1&message=2099