Converting to a Ranged Rogue

[zhelas]

A friend of mine in game is wanting to change their rogue from blunt/board user to a bow user. After browsing these posts I came up with the following. Please any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Peace
---------------------------------------------------------------

Goal is to be an open archer who can pick boxes. The player doesn't want to be a sniper.

Level is 76

Armor 80 -> Puts them in Metal Breast Plate
Ranged Weapons 256 -> Maxed out 2x
Combat Maneuvers 77 -> 1x Combat Maneuvers for Archery isn't all that great. And CMans don't help AS in archery. I would be recommending Surge, Combat Mobility and Weapon Specialization.
Physical Training 114 ->1.5x for redux
Dodge 234 -> Full 3x in Dodging You will get fantastic DS bonuses.
Arcane Symbols 30 -> For toys and for Spell Burst
MIU 42 -> For toys and Spell Burst
Climbing 30 -> Good for now pretty much can get you anywhere in the lands with out a problem
Swiming 50 -> Plenty of swimming to get into Nelemar
Lockpicking 234 -> Maxed 3x
Disarming 234 -> Maxed 3x
Perception 152 -> 2x Must for Archery and you will see all traps.


I didn't use up all of the points. So what else would you recommend I put the points?

Unused: Physical Points 170
Unused: Mental Points 253

[Asrial]

No glaring errors.

[Asrial]

Ambush is not a critical skill of an open aiming archer with no other combat methods.

If I'm doing my math right.. a full 2x ambush regime would ONLY yield +29 AS. Aiming from the open uses only perception.

[Stretch]

29 AS is huge.

Also, I would strongly recommend getting up to 404 if you plan on picking your own boxes and not dying.

130 or 140 ranks of armor for full plate is also pretty clutch.

[Asrial]

You're crazy [general] if you think that 468 PTP's and 234 MTP's is a worthy cost for 29 AS given the design of this character.

It'd be different if they could hide (and snipe) or hide and use a second weapon style (IE: brawling and ambushing with a fist-scythe).

Let me make my stance clearear.. ambush gives them NO benefit outside of that 29 AS. They get no DS from it and they can't hide so they get no aiming skill from it. It's better put as a "post-100" goal.

Also, Aize.. is that your "I just turned 100" training or your "I've been 100 for a while" training?

If it's the latter.. we should be a bit more realistic about what they'll look like when they hit 100.

[mgoddess]

Also, I would strongly recommend getting up to 404 if you plan on picking your own boxes and not dying.
:yeahthat:

[Stretch]

At level 78:

160 ranks of Ranged = 260 AS
160 ranks of Perception = 20 AS
COL = 35 AS
25 DEX bonus = 25 AS
5x bow + 5x arrows = 50 AS
Wspec = 10 AS

400 AS for zero ambush, 440 AS for 2x ambush

Stuff in the Aqueducts have DS in what range, low to mid 300? That means there is a decent chance you do not one-shot or even miss with a 400 AS, but you have a pretty good chance at a one-shot (assuming you hit the eye) with 440.

EDIT: Let's put it another way. You are getting 2.25 AS per level with 2x Ranged and 2x Perception. In other words, you can get almost 13 levels of additional AS by training in Ambush. You don't think that's important?

EDIT #2: I'm not sure if the formula for AS is (Ambush + Percep ranks - 80) / 4, or (Ambush - 40 ) / 4 + (Percep - 40) / 4.

If it's the first one, it's an even bigger delta.

[Asrial]

I disagree with you Stretch, but it's not that big enough a deal for me to crunch the numbers or drag a character to the ducts to get a log.

[Asrial]

EDIT #2: I'm not sure if the formula for AS is (Ambush + Percep ranks - 80) / 4, or (Ambush - 40 ) / 4 + (Percep - 40) / 4.It's the latter. There are many ways to write it.. but the -40 is to each skill.

At level 78.. the max ranks counted for ambush will be 158 (it's level + 1). I'm not sure if it rounds up or not (I'm sure I have it listed somewhere but hell if I know where) so we'll err on the side of benefiting your stance and say it does.

30 AS is what you'd get at that level.

[Endlin]

30 to your BASE AS is huge.

I honestly see nothing in that training plan that makes points so tight you can't do ambush.

And unless you're trying to win some sort of contest... 3x picking/disarm before cap is overkill. 2.5x is the sweet spot. It will be the difference in picking 95% of your own boxes and 99%.

If you're saying all those TP's aren't worth 30 AS.. Its a little odd you don't feel the same way about the 3x picking.

[Asrial]

If you're saying all those TP's aren't worth 30 AS.. Its a little odd you don't feel the same way about the 3x picking.30 points to your CS is huge. 30 points to your AS is not.

If 30 AS points makes/breaks your hunting (at the higher levels).. you're doing it wrong.

..and you're ignoring the point of the character. They aren't trying to make an efficient hunter.

I stopped deciding to nitpick it when I read "rogue" "archer" "open aiming only".

Do I think this training plan is overly viable for hunting? Not really. ..but hey, at least they have a plan and desire for what they want. We'll set them straight when they come back.

[waywardgs]

30 to your BASE AS is huge.

I honestly see nothing in that training plan that makes points so tight you can't do ambush.

And unless you're trying to win some sort of contest... 3x picking/disarm before cap is overkill. 2.5x is the sweet spot. It will be the difference in picking 95% of your own boxes and 99%.

If you're saying all those TP's aren't worth 30 AS.. Its a little odd you don't feel the same way about the 3x picking.

So I recently did some mixing up of my skills and dropped picking from around 2.3x to nothing because I couldn't pick my own boxes reliably and it was too expensive tp-wise to make it worthwhile. At 78, my training is this:

Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 40 8 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 184 84 84
Ranged Weapons.....................| 260 160 160
Thrown Weapons.....................| 203 103 103
Ambush.............................| 260 160 160
Physical Fitness...................| 260 160 160
Dodging............................| 335 235 235
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 130 35 35
Harness Power......................| 108 26 26
Stalking and Hiding................| 260 160 160
Perception.........................| 260 160 160
Climbing...........................| 140 40 40
Swimming...........................| 105 25 25
First Aid..........................| 40 8 8

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 11 11

Dropped picking entirely, and picked up hurling, which I'll be building up by dropping CM further to 1x, eventually bringing up the hurling to 2x to handle things that aren't easily one-shotted by arrows. (handaxe bando as supplimental attack) At the moment I hide as needed and use sniping as a secondary hunting style when the situation requires it. I don't die unless I make a mistake and get caught with a spell- the 3x dodge makes my DS virtually untouchable. What I'm wondering is this- Aize, you're a spellrogue, but you still 1x picking- Why bother with that? 1x picking at cap, do you just pick other people's boxes for the fun of it? Because with 176 ranks of pick/disarm, it was borderline useless for me at 75-ish.

Kind of a rambling post, but anyway, another rogue at 78, so there.

[droit]

What's the problem here? His proposed build covers the various bases and has extra TPs. Put those into ambush and get some extra AS. If I were a rogue, I'd definitely be 2x ambush, especially later on in the game when more things start wearing plate class armors.

[Endlin]

30 AS for a rogue is enormous...

ESPECIALLY if you aren't sniping.

[Endlin]

If you can't pick most of your own boxes at 2.3x picking... Then you don't have lores. Or you're only trying to pick shrickhen and OTF lich boxes.

Short of that... and I don't mean this insultingly.. I don't believe you.

[waywardgs]

If you can't pick most of your own boxes at 2.3x picking... Then you don't have lores. Or you're only trying to pick shrickhen and OTF lich boxes.

Short of that... and I don't mean this insultingly.. I don't believe you.

Nah, I had lores. Mostly I hunt 10 levels over, and also, minotaur boxes seemed inordinately tough. I could pick lower plane rift boxes easily enough, but I kept getting minotaur magus boxes that I just couldn't do, and it irritated me enought to say fuck it. I lartonize now and make no money from hunting aside from the occasional sellable item. I also like to verb words.

[Asrial]

I hunt with a capped archer who can achieve a 530-550 AS with relative ease. I certainly don't see the same level 490-500 AS archers having any difficulty or complaining.

My own archer is only 71 but he hasn't had any issues and I use a 4x bow with 0x blessed arrows.

Anyways, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

To answer your question Droit...

I'm responding to the "ZOMG, U R NEEDING AMBUSH" train of thought.

[Endlin]

You not being able to pick 10 levels over your head doesn't really mean anything other than "If you wanna pick 10 levels over your head 3x picking kids..." though.

Mino boxes are tough for their level. And, as a rogue, not wanting to pick locks is one thing... But no ambush and no hiding makes me "LOL que!?"

[Asrial]

And, as a rogue, not wanting to pick locks is one thing... But no ambush and no hiding makes me "LOL que!?"QFT. Go be a ranger ;)

[waywardgs]

You not being able to pick 10 levels over your head doesn't really mean anything other than "If you wanna pick 10 levels over your head 3x picking kids..." though.

Mino boxes are tough for their level. And, as a rogue, not wanting to pick locks is one thing... But no ambush and no hiding makes me "LOL que!?"

All true. I change my training on a whim though. I've done 8 or so fixskills. Get bored easily. No hiding or ambush though, when it's so cheap for a rogue, is silly to disregard.

[Endlin]

I hunt with a capped archer who can achieve a 530-550 AS with relative ease. I certainly don't see the same level 490-500 AS archers having any difficulty or complaining.

My own archer is only 71 but he hasn't had any issues and I use a 4x bow with 0x blessed arrows.

Anyways, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

To answer your question Droit...

I'm responding to the "ZOMG, U R NEEDING AMBUSH" train of thought.

I don't think anyone got all "ZOMG" about it... It's just logical that if you're playing the class that gets the cheapest hiding and ambush that you train in it... Is it not? Especially when it raises your AS.

Is 30 AS the difference between being able to hunt and not? No... But it is undoubtdly the difference between many, many, many stuns/1 shot kills/complete misses.

Like you said though... Agree to disagree.

[droit]

I hunt with a capped archer who can achieve a 530-550 AS with relative ease. I certainly don't see the same level 490-500 AS archers having any difficulty or complaining.

My own archer is only 71 but he hasn't had any issues and I use a 4x bow with 0x blessed arrows.

Anyways, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

To answer your question Droit...

I'm responding to the "ZOMG, U R NEEDING AMBUSH" train of thought.

I currently shoot with a 498 AS. If archery were my only (or primary) form of attack, I'd consider myself woefully underpowered when considering the full breadth of capped hunting (I'm sure it's fine for OTF). Grimswarm, some Nelemar creatures, and almost everything in the new Rift area all require a bit more AS to hunt efficiently. Ambush is pretty cheap for a rogue, too, so I'd say go for it.

[Asrial]

Here's my 71 rogue for the OP. This is more of the basic training plan. I STRONGLY think whoever you're doing this for should re-consider their 'aiming only' plan.

Armor Use -- 35 ranks (I'm using some really nicely altered 6x chainmail and this is my only character that can wear it, heh)

Combat Maneuvers -- 89 ranks (I decided to test out the evasion CM but I'd really recommend this be dropped to cover Surge of Strength, Shadow Mastery, and Weapon Specialization)

Ranged Weapons -- 146 ranks

Brawling -- 146 ranks (he's in Voln so this gives me TWO additional attack methods (Voln-fu and ambushing with a fist-scythe))

Ambush -- 146 ranks (see above)

Physical Fitness -- 92 ranks (redux)

Dodging -- 146 ranks

Arcane Symbols -- 10 ranks

Harness Power -- 2 ranks (get some manna bread, pick on a node, make sure to take off your armor)

Disarming Traps -- 146 ranks (I rarely have problems picking boxes my level; the more important thing is.. I do NOT feel any less of a picker with 2x training)

Picking Locks -- 146 ranks

Stalking and Hiding -- 201 ranks (honestly, you do NOT want to be standing in front of creatures that are casting curse.. bind.. dark catalyst.. etc as even with spells and heavy armor, you won't ward them very much)

Perception -- 165 ranks

Climbing -- 25 ranks

Swimming -- 30 ranks

First Aid -- 30 ranks (I'd actually recommend getting rid of this)

Minor Elemental -- 4 ranks

[zhelas]

Fortunately it isn't my character. However the person involed doesn't believe in sniping period. They want to pick boxes and shoot a bow from the open. They don't have the patience to hide and shoot. Hopefully with enough imbeds holding quake or ewave they will have crowd control.

Pretty much they play their rogue like a warrior. They charge into battle swinging a weapon and they get squashed. ::shrugs::

... it is what it is ...

I think putting extra points in to Ambush is a good idea. I knew that once you have over 40 ranks of both ambush and perception there were marginal benefits to the AS.

Thanks for the imput I will pass it along:)

Peace

[zhelas]

I currently shoot with a 498 AS. If archery were my only (or primary) form of attack, I'd consider myself woefully underpowered when considering the full breadth of capped hunting (I'm sure it's fine for OTF). Grimswarm, some Nelemar creatures, and almost everything in the new Rift area all require a bit more AS to hunt efficiently. Ambush is pretty cheap for a rogue, too, so I'd say go for it.

Highjacking my own thread here. Droit do you have any ambush at all? I am looking down the road at my own Ranger who at 64 has an AS of 376.
Currently he is 2x range, 2x perception, 1x ambush with a couple of enhansives plus sigils of offense and major bane.

Peace

[zhelas]

Another question: I have heard that Rogues get better bonuses if they cast 403 or 404 on themselves. What about imbeds? Does a rogue get the same bonuses with 403 and 404 from using an imbed versus self cast?

Peace

[DaCapn]

Another question: I have heard that Rogues get better bonuses if they cast 403 or 404 on themselves. What about imbeds? Does a rogue get the same bonuses with 403 and 404 from using an imbed versus self cast?

Peace

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/404

[m444w]

Fortunately it isn't my character. However the person involed doesn't believe in sniping period. They want to pick boxes and shoot a bow from the open. They don't have the patience to hide and shoot. Hopefully with enough imbeds holding quake or ewave they will have crowd control.

Pretty much they play their rogue like a warrior. They charge into battle swinging a weapon and they get squashed. ::shrugs::




Learn ewave. If they are getting squashed they are doing something wrong. I'm a combat rogue, level 61... I'd like to think I do alright.

[Fallen]

Learn ewave. If they are getting squashed they are doing something wrong. I'm a combat rogue, level 61... I'd like to think I do alright.

Yeah, but you have about what? 500 mill worth of gear? Nothing wrong with a casting rogue build, though.

[droit]

Highjacking my own thread here. Droit do you have any ambush at all? I am looking down the road at my own Ranger who at 64 has an AS of 376.
Currently he is 2x range, 2x perception, 1x ambush with a couple of enhansives plus sigils of offense and major bane.

Peace

I'm 1.5x ambush and I wear about +25 worth of enhancives. Granted, I'm a giant, so I only has a DEX bonus of 20.

[m444w]

Yeah, but you have about what? 500 mill worth of gear? Nothing wrong with a casting rogue build, though.

My gear just lets me do archery, 3x dodge, casting, TWC, and OHE. I'd be just as good at any one thing if I dropped the gear and focused on one route or the other (I'd just be less versatile)... The gear just allows me to make up for the lack of focus by remaining versatile and powerful.

My AS compared to other like level rogues is generally less (due to my lower level of cmans). So, some neat weapons fix the AS issue. My ranged AS is also lower than most rogues who are my level due to the fact I am neither 2x in ambush or perception (but I also have something to mitigate that).