Spittle

[Mint]

So I was doing a route in the afternoon on Saturday. I had five passengers on board. I got to a bus zone where one guy was standing waiting for my bus. This guy has ridden a number of times and almost every time he tries to ride for free. So I pull in and he gets on and sure enough he drops in a quarter and says 'all I got on me'. Partial payment of the fare does not guarantee a ride so I told him he would either have to pay the full fare or get off the bus. After arguing about it he very reluctantly stuck a dollar in and went to sit down.

When he pulled for his stop I pulled into the next bus zone, opened my doors and he stepped off the bus, turned and spat at me then proceeded to walk down the road.

Very little spittle actually hit me however my company has very strict guidelines about assaults. So I called it in and the transit cops pulled the video, talked to the local cops, who knew the guy and ended up arresting him. Apparently he is being charged with felony assault (not sure what degree, probably a lesser degree).

Now I feel sort of guilty. This guy, if he was actually trying to hit me with spit could have very easily got me full on in the face but only a little hit me on the back of my right hand and a droplet on my cheek. It could have been so much worse, I mean he could have taken a swing at me as he got off the bus.

I don’t have too much of a problem with passengers normally but assaults on transit operators happen with regularity and yet I still feel like this is somehow my fault and I wonder if I should even have called it in. I guess I could have just let him ride free however I had passengers on board that paid their fares and I always figured it was disrespectful of paying passengers to sit there and see the driver let someone on for free (although I have made exceptions before: drunks will always get a free ride if they ask because at least they are on the bus and not driving, regular passengers that ride often, etc).

The upside is that I got yesterday and today off paid leave, the downside is I will probably have to testify unless he pleads guilty. Oh, and I had to have a hepatitis shot (company policy). His downside is a lot worse. Aside from probably having a record from now on, apparently he also has a little kid at home according to one of my supervisors so I feel all sick to my stomach about that too.

So anyway, I am just venting I guess.

[Trinitis]

Honestly, if he has a kid at home...you just did the best thing for the kid. The guy sounds like a complete ass.

[Ambrosia]

Why do you feel guilty because he's acting like a jackass and spitting at you? It's his fault for being a cheap bastard and not wanting to pay his fare. It would be different if he couldn't afford it, but when he has a dollar on him and tosses in a quarter to try to get a semi-free ride, that's a whole different ballgame. You handle it a lot better than I would have, last time someone spit at me, they got my fist in their jaw.

[Skirmisher]

Good.

The punk should have thought about his child before acting like a barbarian.

Sorry you have to get a shot and are at all forced into an awkward situation by this loser.

[Edaarin]

A guy who can't afford bus fare has a kid?

Brilliant.

[Bobmuhthol]

My contribution:

(18:57:32) Rachel Pwnz: >wt spit warfarer face
[Total modified roll = 115]
You dredge the back of your throat for some meaty phlegm and bring a gob to the tip of your tongue. You expertly shape the gob into a perfect missile and fire it at your intended victim!

Your squishy, squirmy projectile lands directly on a krolvin warfarer's face!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
(18:57:33) Rachel Pwnz: YES
(18:58:21) xxxxx: hah
(18:58:22) xxxxx: Nice one
(18:58:30) xxxxx: Next time do it to Rarr
(18:58:36) Rachel Pwnz: :(
(18:58:37) Rachel Pwnz: <3 rarr

[DeV]

That really sucks to have happen to you Mint. I couldn't imagine what I'd do in that situation.. actually yes, I would probably not have a job right about now. But, I think he deserves what he gets. Im sure he will think before he does something that idiotic next time.

[Snapp]

He deserves it Mint. People need to learn they can't act like that and get away with it. You're just trying to do your job, you don't have to put up with that.. and I'm sure it would have continued in the future had you not done something, seeing as he's a regular passenger. This time spit indirectly, next time spit in your face.

[Nakiro]

Imagine how he treats his wife.

[Latrinsorm]

Don't feel guilty.

[Kitsun]

So not even close to your fault. You were doing your job. He was a jackass looking for a handout and pissed he didn't get one. He could fucking walk if he wants to save the money.

[Betheny]

Luckily, the only thing that dude's going to be spitting for a while is Bubba's big black seed.

Hopefully, they feed their inmates lots and lots of pork, just for nasty taste effect.

On a more serious note...

He could have had AIDS or hepatitis. And you know what? Anyone that's that disrespectful deserves to have their anus turned into a tunnel fit for a bowling ball.

[Nakiro]

On an unrelated note, it takes over a pint of saliva to have a remote chance of contracting HIV from saliva.

But the bowling ball comment was pretty good.

Also unreated, the flower is the vagina of a plant, yet we all like to sniff them. Coincidence?

[Mint]

Update:

I talked to a dispatcher friend of mine tonight that wasn't at work over the weekend. He did some checking and apparently the guy was aggressive with the arresting officers. One of the cops was slightly injured (small scratch or two) and I guess they charge a person with the most serious charge they think they can get a conviction. So I guess this guy was someone with deeper anger issues than I thought. That's all I know at this point.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words. I really was just venting but appreciate the support.

[longshot]

Sounds like he deserved it.

Don't feel bad at all.

He should apologize for putting you in the positon to have to call the police, and of course for spitting on you.

[Snapp]

Injured a cop? Boooooy he's in trouble now I bet.

[Galleazzo]

Beth pwns!

:lol:

Anyway Mint hon, if you had a kid you wouldn't do stupid ass shit like assaulting transit workers and cops that might get that kid taken from you, eh? If it wasn't you who would it've been? Matter of time.

[peam]

Don't keep bad. At least you're not this guy:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/03/23/392067.html

[Skirmisher]

Christ, if i hear one more pathetic loser blame tv or a movie for what they go out and do I swear i'm going to take my 50 cal machine gun with armor pericing ammo as allowed to me by Edine and kill them and everyone they ever knew.

[Galleazzo]

Ya know, Skirmisher, I used to think like that.

Couple years ago I went camping, and the pond had a buttload of kids playing in it.

And about a dozen of them were doing wrestling moves on one another, just like they saw on TV. Rock bottoms, body slams, Sharpshooters, all of that. I didn't see a kid get hurt, but I bet it was a matter of time.

People copy.

[Meos]

and he had the dollar the whole time, what a peice of shit. They should have a button you press and a boxing glove flies out of the floor of the bus infront of the money collector deal that punchs him in the nuts, or cunt for the female pieces of shit.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Rock bottoms, body slams, Sharpshooters, all of that. I didn't see a kid get hurt, but I bet it was a matter of time. If they do them right, no one will get hurt. That's why every kid should learn the basics of Pro Wrestling, preferably in a week-long seminar I would run and they would give me money.

In short: Yes, people copy. Yes, I'm scared of Skirm now.

[Siefer]

Originally posted by Edaarin
A guy who can't afford bus fare has a kid?

Brilliant.

A guy who can't afford bus fare has a kid!

Brilliant!

/guinness

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Don't feel guilty.

Agreed. Dude has no respect for society, and someone just trying to make a living. :thumbsdown:


Originally posted by Snapp
Injured a cop? Boooooy he's in trouble now I bet.

Would explain the Felony charge. Assaulting an Officer, or Resisting Arrest.

[TheEschaton]

What's the phrase? Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you judge him?

Damn, you people need some serious issues looked at. Maybe he could afford 25 cents, but not $1.25. When you live on maybe $50 a week, an extra dollar is a big deal.

Now, if you knew the guy was a millionaire (riding the bus?) and he tries and stiff you - then yeah, he's just being cheap. Or, if you know he's a crackhead, and wants the extra dollar to score some dope, then yeah, he's an ass. But, some people (and no one here qualifies as "some people", by simple virtue of having a computer) need an extra dollar to make ends meet.

"Bleeding heart" is a compliment, folks.

-TheE-

[DeV]

I used to ride public transportation.. and in Chicago believe me you see it all. They don't even let you on the bus or train here if you dont have fare, dont even bother.

[Galleazzo]

You can get a job around here for $7.50 an hour cleaning out toilets, and ain't no temp agency pays less than $9. That's $200/week takehome.

And the people in those jobs pay their bus fare.

Guy's disabled? Disability pays MORE.

Guy's just plain fucking lazy? His problem, not Mint's.

[Skirmisher]

E, I don't quite understand how you can defend the actions of this man.

I don't give a damn if this waste of flesh was having a bad day, bad week or bad year. None of that gives him the right to abuse someone else.

All sympathy I have for individuals in a tough position evaporates as soon as they think that their situation gives them the right to take their frustration out on someone else.

I have given complete strangers money several times when i knew they were in a tough spot and would have gladly helped this guy out with a buck, but he felt to proud perhaps to ask for help and decided to instead try to intimidate Mint.

E, you are a smart guy, but in this case just dead wrong.

[SpunGirl]

So why should the people that pay the regular fare have to sit and watch this bum paying .25 to ride the bus when they all had to pay the extra dollar? He's ridden before, it's not like he doesn't know the fare. If he can't work it into his budget he needs to figure something out. Like not having kids you clearly can't afford, yanno.

Life sucks sometimes. That does not entitle anyone - crackhead, computer owner or other - the right to a fare break on the bus or to spit on someone for doing her JOB.

That's the problem with so many people - is that they all feel entitled. I'm sick, have 2039482 kids, have a drug addiction, my life sucks. YOU OWE ME.

-K

[SpunGirl]

Heh.... and I thought I was the only one responding to Eschaton.

Apparently not too many bleeding hearts to be found here!

-K

[TheEschaton]

I don't give a damn if this waste of flesh was having a bad day, bad week or bad year. None of that gives him the right to abuse someone else.

All sympathy I have for individuals in a tough position evaporates as soon as they think that their situation gives them the right to take their frustration out on someone else.

Right, he has no right to abuse someone else.

However, there is a context to every situation. All I'm saying is you should try and understand the guy's context.

If a kid steals a loaf of bread because he's hungry, is that as bad as a kid who steals a loaf of bread because he's a control freak and likes the thought of taking that which isn't his? No, and I don't think anyone would say so.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but we, as a society, also have to take responsibility for what put the man in such a situation that his frustration mounted to the point that he expressed himself that way.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

I love how people have no sympathy, either.


Have you never made a mistake? Come on now. What if you accidently got pregnant, and lived in a society where abortion was not an option, socially?

People commit mistakes intentionally, and people find mistakes unintentionally. I think the case in question is the latter, unless Mint is missing something from the story, like the guy being a millionaire, a generally abusive rider to begin with, or a drug addict.

-TheE-

[SpunGirl]

I don't think she was missing anything. He's a regular rider, he knows the fare. Just because he's in some "position" doesn't entitle him to a discount on what other people have paid full price for. It's also not Mint's job to make that distinction, and she was right to think about her OTHER riders that paid the normal fare. Hey, I paid the regular fare but you let that guy on for free because he's having a rough time. My frustration has now mounted to the point where I want to beat the shit out of someone - or maybe just spit at them.

Nah, doesn't hold much water.

-K

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Apparently not too many bleeding hearts to be found here!
I'm a bleeding heart to people down on their luck who need a hand. One of my loaders lives at the local men's shelter while he gets back on his feet. He got maybe two changes of clothing and his shoes are from Goodwill but he does an honest job and the priest down at the shelter tells me he's off the bottle.

But that guy wants to work. He's so ashamed of being in debt he could puke and he shook just talking about it. He never would've spat on a T bus driver who just wanted the fare.

He's trying to make good, not spread shit or insult people, and as long as he shows up on time and sober, John's got a job with me.

That's a man I'm down with helping.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
What's the phrase? Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you judge him?

Damn, you people need some serious issues looked at. Maybe he could afford 25 cents, but not $1.25. When you live on maybe $50 a week, an extra dollar is a big deal.

Then he could have left home earlier, walked and saved himself the whole fare. I'm all for people trying it on, but spitting at someone when you come unstuck is just sick.


"Bleeding heart" is a compliment, folks.

-TheE-

Soft touch would be a better description

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Apparently not too many bleeding hearts to be found here!
I'm a bleeding heart to people down on their luck who need a hand. One of my loaders lives at the local men's shelter while he gets back on his feet. He got maybe two changes of clothing and his shoes are from Goodwill but he does an honest job and the priest down at the shelter tells me he's off the bottle.

But that guy wants to work. He's so ashamed of being in debt he could puke and he shook just talking about it. He never would've spat on a T bus driver who just wanted the fare.

He's trying to make good, not spread shit or insult people, and as long as he shows up on time and sober, John's got a job with me.

That's a man I'm down with helping.

Nah, that's just doing a good deed. I guess our definitions of "bleeding hearts" are different. There's no reason not to help this guy - he's not asking for something for free, a la Mr. Bus Fare.

He's just asking for work, and you can afford to pay him for it. Nothing wrong with that at all.

-K

[TheEschaton]

So, people who are in the position of being fucked, don't deserve any help? That's a rather cold way of looking at things.

Note: I'm not applying this to this guy. I'm just saying: to think people who've run on hard times don't deserve anything is pretty heartless. Hope you never have hard times and are faced with people who think similarly to you.

-TheE-

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
So, people who are in the position of being fucked, don't deserve any help? That's a rather cold way of looking at things.

Note: I'm not applying this to this guy. I'm just saying: to think people who've run on hard times don't deserve anything is pretty heartless. Hope you never have hard times and are faced with people who think similarly to you.

-TheE-

If you arent applying it to this particular loser then get off your high horse and make a new damned thread already.

[TheEschaton]

To apply it to this guy:

You don't know his situation. Thus, you cannot determine whether he is deserving of sympathy or not (note: not exoneration - he is still wrong for doing it).

And, when you can't determine something, my philosophy is to go with the behavior that assumes the best of people and is the most loving. Maybe you think it's a bit naive, but I think the world could use a bit more of it.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
You don't know his situation.I know this: Mint isn't a bad person. Mint is a good person. Spitting on good people is wrong. I can feel sorry about the guy not being able to make ends meet, but spitting on good people (especially women) is never allowable. If that's the only way he can express his frustration or anger, he should grow up.

[Bobmuhthol]

http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Bobmuhthol/mintymintmint.bmp

Yay Latrinsorm for being correct.

[Skirmisher]

We all have difficulties in our lives. It is how we respond to those difficulties that show what sort of character we have.

What we are doing here is talking about a particular persons actions on a particular day.

If you feel so strongly about identifying the particular trauma to this persons psyche perhaps you should U2U Mint to try to get the info required to call him and nurse him through his hour of need.

I find your attitude to be condescending and insulting in your assumption that you are the only one to try to help others less fotunate. Just as you point out that we do not know what is going on in this mans life, I submit that you have no idea what I or others here do when not chatting on these forums.

Again, the sympathy I might have for someone having a tough life is in no way connected to the anger I have that ANYONE would think it thier right to treat someone else in this manner.

It was this troglodyte's decision to demean himself so in his attempt to take out his anger on poor Mint.

[Ambrosia]

Why should she feel sorry for him because he can't pay his fare? That's like taking a cab, the bill coming out to 15.95, handing them 3 dollars and some change and saying "It's all I got, and since I can't afford it, you shouldn't complain."

Sorry, life doesn't work that way, and you don't get handouts just because you think you deserve them. He doesn't like it, then he should find a job or whatever closer to his house that he can walk to that way he doesn't have to pay a bus fare.

[TheEschaton]

It's always "He should just", "he should just". What makes you think he hasn't tried, or isn't trying, and is having trouble anyways? I'm starting to think there's a high correlation of antisocial behavior among Gemstone players. I know, quite a stretch.


And Latrin, didn't I SAY he was wrong for doing it? Regardless of whether the victim is a good person or a bad person, it still doesn't mean you know his situation, and can thus judge him. If Mint was a horrible, mean, evil person who was giving this guy a hard time cause, say, he was of a particular ethnic group she didn't like, does that make it any less wrong if he spit on her? Nope. However, in the case with the good Mint, the innocent victim Mint, one has to look into the context.

As for this:

I find your attitude to be condescending and insulting in your assumption that you are the only one to try to help others less fotunate. Just as you point out that we do not know what is going on in this mans life, I submit that you have no idea what I or others here do when not chatting on these forums.

...I have no idea where that came from. I'm just saying it's pretty shitty for you to jump on the guy like that. But yanno, maybe your situation makes it understandable. ;) Still shitty, nonetheless...but at least understandable.


-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
And Latrin, didn't I SAY he was wrong for doing it? Regardless of whether the victim is a good person or a bad person, it still doesn't mean you know his situation, and can thus judge him. Be a sport and define what you mean by "judge" and I think we'll be on the same page. :) Because we're not now. :(

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I love how people have no sympathy, either.


Have you never made a mistake? Come on now. What if you accidently got pregnant, and lived in a society where abortion was not an option, socially?

People commit mistakes intentionally, and people find mistakes unintentionally. I think the case in question is the latter, unless Mint is missing something from the story, like the guy being a millionaire, a generally abusive rider to begin with, or a drug addict.

-TheE-

Hookay. Rereading Mint's initial post, I find the following:

"So I was doing a route in the afternoon on Saturday. I had five passengers on board. I got to a bus zone where one guy was standing waiting for my bus. This guy has ridden a number of times and almost every time he tries to ride for free. So I pull in and he gets on and sure enough he drops in a quarter and says 'all I got on me'. Partial payment of the fare does not guarantee a ride so I told him he would either have to pay the full fare or get off the bus. After arguing about it he very reluctantly stuck a dollar in and went to sit down."

Where, in that context do you find that this man may have made a "mistake"? He knows the drill. He has ridden the bus "a number of times". He knows the fare, but "almost every time he tries to ride for free". That is not a mistake. That is a repeated offense.

Somehow, this man seems to feel that he, unlike the other riders of the bus, is entitled to a free ride. What his reasons are for feeling this way I have no idea. None of us do. Yet, he has shown with this action and previous actions that he does feel entitled to ride for free. No mistake there.

Mint does not own the bus company. She is the bus driver. She does not set the fare, neither can she arbitrarily override that fee. The fee is set by the owners of the bus. Unless this man is a cretin, he knows this perfectly well. Very doubtful that there is a mistake there.

Do I feel sorrow for those who are downtrodden through no fault of their own? Of course, I do. Do I feel sorrow for a man who feels entitled to ride a bus free of charge...the same bus that others must pay to ride...and, when thwarted in his desire to do so, feels it is his right to spit on the bus driver? No, I do not. Perhaps, rather than downtrodden through no fault of his own, this man's attitude has resulted in his present circumstances. That makes sense, in light of what occurred here; although, I cannot say for certain. There may be extenuating circumstances of which I know nothing.

No matter what circumstances may exist in this man's life, what he did is inconscionable. His behavior was deplorable and, apparently, against the law. He was arrested. That is as it should be.

My heart bleeds for those whose best efforts leave them unrewarded. This man got the reward he justly earned, in my opinion.

HarmNone does have a heart, and expects the same of others

[TheEschaton]

There's the automatic assumption that he's the scum of the earth, that he's trying to freeload (as opposed to genuinely needing to save money), that he has no right to be upset, etc, etc, etc.

I bet if you asked people in secret, and they didn't have to voice their opinions aloud, people would assume he's of a certain race, etc.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Perhaps, rather than downtrodden through no fault of his own, this man's attitude has resulted in his present circumstances.

And perhaps, his attitude is the result of the society around him. Maybe some people can't control themselves as well as you, HN, and allow their environment to poison their mindset. ;)

His feeling of entitlement is a tricky one. If a man is genuinely entitled to something, but isn't getting it.....should he not be allowed to feel entitled to it? For example, there are programs in the city which'll buy you monthly bus passes if you need to go somewhere. Say he deserves one, but they ran out of funding, and couldn't get one. Does this automatically mean he has no right to feel entitled to one? Sure, he dealt with it poorly, but his sense of entitlement is still there.

Not necessarily applicable in this case, but you know - as long as one possibility exists, you must take it into account. And think this situation doesn't happen? It's been happening for the past three months, in Buffalo. People who have a legitimate need to be somewhere, would normally be entitled to a work program which'll give them a paid bus pass, but because funding was cut, can't get one now (but still have the need to go). Thanks, G.W.

And try telling people to walk in a Buffalo winter, even for a block or two. You might be arrested for negligent manslaughter, in Buffalo.

-TheE-

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Christ, if i hear one more pathetic loser blame tv or a movie for what they go out and do I swear i'm going to take my 50 cal machine gun with armor pericing ammo as allowed to me by Edine and kill them and everyone they ever knew.
depleted uranium rounds Skrim, that way if they are in a take you can pierce the armor

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I bet if you asked people in secret, and they didn't have to voice their opinions aloud, people would assume he's of a certain race, etc.

-TheE-

I will bet that, in most instances, you would be wrong. For myself, I KNOW you are wrong.

HarmNone

[Mint]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
There's the automatic assumption that he's the scum of the earth, that he's trying to freeload (as opposed to genuinely needing to save money), that he has no right to be upset, etc, etc, etc.

I bet if you asked people in secret, and they didn't have to voice their opinions aloud, people would assume he's of a certain race, etc.

Whoa...

First of all, The E, he was a white male in his early twenties who gets on at the same stop every time and deboards at the same stop every time....one mile away. I have deep sympathy for those less fortunate than I however, my job requires that I collect fares. This man is not disabled, he was quite able to walk the ONE MILE to his home. Instead he paid his fare waited until his stop, then assaulted me.

I admire compassion for others and strive to show it myself. But if someone who is better off than I fails to show me compassion do I have the right to assault them? Of course not. And perhaps that was not your point but it did sound like that was what your were saying.

You will find a larger percentage of lower income people ride public transportation and if it were up to me there would be no fare box at all. It is not up to me.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
There's the automatic assumption that he's the scum of the earth, that he's trying to freeload (as opposed to genuinely needing to save money), that he has no right to be upset, etc, etc, etc.

I bet if you asked people in secret, and they didn't have to voice their opinions aloud, people would assume he's of a certain race, etc.

-TheE-

Well of course he has no right to be upset.

And your gall is incredible. You are worse than the idiots who actually might think something like that for making such an assumption.

I find myself at a loss at being faced with someone of such naivete coupled with such an ego.

[HarmNone]

Perhaps, the time that TheE is preparing to spend in a world most definitely not his own will bring him to a broader view of humanity.

HarmNone was a bit nonplussed by the same statement that got to Skirmisher...and, for the same reasons. ;)

[Skirmisher]

You just say things nicer and stuff. :smilegrin:

[Mint]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
You just say things nicer and stuff. :smilegrin:

I love it when you get on a roll though. It's 'duck and cover' time.

[HarmNone]

There are times when "duck and cover" is needed. This is probably one of them. :lol:

HarmNone

[Mint]

Originally posted by HarmNone
There are times when "duck and cover" is needed. This is probably one of them. :lol:

HarmNone

HAHAHA took me a moment to get that. I am slow. Unless spittle is flying in my direction...

[HarmNone]

Somebody needs to invent a spit-bouncer, Mint. That way, when some doofus decides to aim his bodily fluids in your direction, you can shoot it right back at him. Now, wouldn't that just make his day? :D

HarmNone figures if the doofus spits, he oughta wear it!

[Sean]

For those of us who are lazy .. how did this turn towards assuming what race someone is? and other such generalizations?

To me it doesn't matter what gender/color/social standing/etc. a person comes from spitting at someone is just a complete sign of disrespect. The guy had the money for the fare he just didn't want to cought it up. Mint doens't make the rules but it is her job to uphold them. Both rules are rules that she upheld A.) the requiring the passanger pay his fare and B.) reporting the passanger for "assaulting" her. As shitty as you might feel afterwards I think she did the right thing. If you let someone disrespect you and walk all over you I find you open up the possibilities for future disrepect and who knows where it would stop. Anyway just my two cents.

[Skirmisher]

One of the various times i gladly called the police to escort a person out of a branch was when the idot spit at one of our tellers.

I find it one of the most disgusting things a person can do, and far worse than cursing or yelling.

Spit at me and its on.

[HarmNone]

The following statement by TheEschaton was what turned the conversation in the direction about which you inquired, Tijay:

>>I bet if you asked people in secret, and they didn't have to voice their opinions aloud, people would assume he's of a certain race, etc.<<

Despite TheE's bet, as stated above, most of us seem to agree with you. Personally, I have no problem with voicing my opinions aloud, and they will be the same as those I hold privately. :)

HarmNone

[SpunGirl]

He couldn't walk the one mile? I don't care what race he was, that's just plain lazy. I've seen people WHEEL themselves one mile without a complaint. Christ.

Why would Mint want to alienate her regular, probably polite (or at least not arguing, spitting) customers to let this douche ride for a quarter?

Good Mint, free cookie.

-K

P.S. Just for the record, I had a picture in my head of an unkept, stubbly-faced white guy with a bad attitude and a beanie. Of course, that could be twisted into saying I assume everyone is white unless told otherwise, but whatever.

It really has no bearing on what actually happened.

[Edited on 3-24-2004 by SpunGirl]

[Souzy]

You handled it better than I would've. I would've said a smart ass comment to where he would've hit me. Then I would've kicked him in the knee caps and punched him in the face. Then say it was in self defense.

You did a good thing.

[SpunGirl]

Oh, Lalana, as long as Eschaton was the cop that came to ask you why you beat the shit out of him, all you would've had to say is, "well, he pushed my frustration level to this point and I felt I had to react. Since I spend my free time playing a fairly violent text-based game the likes of which is a complete societal norm, this is all I knew how to do - so don't blame me."

-K

[Edited on 3-24-2004 by SpunGirl]

[Mint]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

P.S. Just for the record, I had a picture in my head of an unkept, stubbly-faced white guy with a bad attitude and a beanie.

Bingo. Well, except for the beanie.

[Mint]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

Perhaps, rather than downtrodden through no fault of his own, this man's attitude has resulted in his present circumstances.

His feeling of entitlement is a tricky one. If a man is genuinely entitled to something, but isn't getting it.....should he not be allowed to feel entitled to it?

King County Metro lost a driver to someone who felt 'entitled':

http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/29/bus.crash.01/


King County Metro averages an assault a DAY. In the wake of this incident laws were enacted:


SENATE BILL REPORT
SB 5492
As Reported By Senate Committee On:
Judiciary, March 3, 1999

Title: An act relating to assault on transit employees or customers.

Brief Description: Extending protection of transit employees and customers.

Brief History:
Committee Activity: Judiciary: 2/15/99, 3/3/99 [DPS].

SENATE COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

Background: An assault, in its simplest form, has been defined by case law as any intentional offensive touching or striking of another, regardless of whether any actual physical harm is done to the victim. An act of assault may range from spitting on someone to inflicting a permanently disabling or disfiguring injury. The criminal code divides the crime of assault into four degrees and into some specific separate crimes. The various crimes are distinguished by the state of mind of the offender, the extent of injury done to the victim, whether or not a weapon was used, and who the victim was.

Fourth-degree assault, sometimes called "simple assault," is a gross misdemeanor. Any assault that does not fall within the definition of one of the other degrees or definitions of the crime is fourth-degree assault. Third-degree assault, the lowest level of felony assault, is a class C felony. Generally, in order to amount to third-degree assault, an assault must involve causing some bodily harm with a weapon, or must involve otherwise causing bodily harm that is "accompanied by substantial pain that extends for a period sufficient to cause considerable suffering."

However, the Legislature has also provided that with respect to certain victims, an assault that would otherwise be a gross misdemeanor will be a felony. That is, with respect to these victims, there is no need to show bodily harm caused by a weapon, or accompanied by substantial pain, in order for the crime to be a felony. A fourth-degree assault becomes a class C felony if committed against:

• a public or private transit vehicle driver;
• a public or private school bus driver;
• a fire fighter;
• a law enforcement officer;
• personnel or volunteers at a juvenile corrections facility;
• personnel or volunteers at an adult corrections facility; and
• personnel or volunteers involved in community corrections.

An otherwise misdemeanor assault against one of these victims becomes a felony only if the victim is engaged in his or her job-related duties at the time of the assault.

Effective Date: Ninety days after adjournment of session in which bill is passed.


I do understand the point you are trying to make TheE. Compassion and sympathy for the unfortunate among us is to be yearned for. But when someone who has unfortunate circumstances chooses to resort to violence my sympathy dries up rapidly. What is left is a sort of helpless anger. Anger that he chose the possibility of jail over his own child (in the case of my spitter).

[Myshel]

To many off tracks on this thread. #1 The guy (who we DON"T know his circumstances), was trying to scam the system. Not once but repeatedly. He HAD the money in his pocket to pay, he CHOSE not too, until he was called on it.
#2 He got pissed and spit on Mint. He chose to do that.
#3 She chose to report him.

He has to take the consequences of his actions.
The five other people on the bus saw that Mint doesn't take shit from people. That's a good thing. Everyone deserves respect if they earn it. She was doing her job, he could have respected that, he chose not too.

[TheEschaton]

The fact that he rides for a mile changes the story, Mint. Drastically. ;)

Furthermore, people do have the right to be upset at a system which is treating them unfairly. In the light of the revelation that the man was only a mile away from his destination, though, I think it hardly applies in this situation. If the man lived cross town, etc, whatever.

I am not a cop, nor do I plan on being one, but my life isn't about making excuses for other people, K. I have repeatedly said his situation does not excuse him from his actions (unless he had a complete psychotic snap from reality), but it can shed some light on why he behaved like that. In a court of law, for the more serious types of crimes, that's the difference between life in prison, and 10-25.

Lastly, the ones who still have pride are the ones who will be the ones who will get out of their situation. In the Pine Street Inn, the ones who fought (for what they needed) would be the ones who'd be gone in a month, with a new job, a new place to live, etc. It was the one's who wordlessly shuffled through the day that've been there since the Vietnam War. Excuse me if I don't think having some sense of self-worth (however poorly expressed by this fellow) is not a bad thing.

As for having a big ego and being naive. Sure, I'll accept that. I assume the best of everyone, I'll admit that. Personally, I think that's the only Christian way to do things. As for the ego, I try and work on that, really, I do, but I still believe one person can change the world, turn it on its head, etc, etc. I don't know how I fit in that, but I'll be damned if I sit on my ass and just accept what's handed to me, as opposed to testing my beliefs in the fires. I know I've been blessed with many gifts and talents, and I think it would be stupid and pointless to simply use them to make money, or get a nice house, or have my kids not in the city schools, or something like that. If that's ego, sure, I'm an egomaniac. Do I think I'm gonna rule the world? Nope, but I think I (and everyone else, I think, has this potential, BUT NO ONE USES IT) can do quite a bit. Sow the seeds for the future, etc. I'm no master builder, but I can be a pretty damn good worker. Unlike most egomaniacs, though, I like to think that I can understand the other side, and, if not budge a little (which I have done before), have empathy for it.

-TheE-

[Mint]

I fail to see how a mile or twenty miles affects how you view what happened TheE. Many drivers get people on board that are not regular riders.

He could have been such a rider and I still would have been required to attempt a collection of the fare regardless of what his personal circumstance was.

[HarmNone]

Whether he is travelling one mile, or ten, has no impact on his obligation to behave in a civilized manner toward other human beings who have done nothing to him. His sense of entitlement notwithstanding, Mint is NOT the enemy. One does not spit on people. If he had not learned that, perhaps he will finally get the idea. :rolleyes:

HarmNone

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by SpunGirl

P.S. Just for the record, I had a picture in my head of an unkept, stubbly-faced white guy with a bad attitude and a beanie.

Bingo. Well, except for the beanie.
Scratch beanie, add rumpled army surplus khaki jacket. And once-white sneakers held together with duct tape.

[TheEschaton]

Where did I say he was not obligated to be civil?


Sure, go after him to the fullest extent of the law: I'm all for that. But sympathy, and the act of being sympathetic, is separate from the punishment process. It is hard to tell if a person is deserving of sympathy (which in doesn't mean "deserving of less punishment" necessarily) though, from snap judgements. The retribution should be the same, no matter what, the way in which it is pursued (with mercy, or in a forcefully rehabilitive way) is subject to situation.

That being said, can you understand the position why I believe the willful killing of another person, regardless of situation is wrong, and should be punished? I hope so. But I also hope you would realize is that how a person is treated in punishment is dependent on the situation. Killing in self-defense is wrong - but it deserves sympathy for the fact that the person felt there was no other option. Killing in cold blood is wrong - and it deserves to be treated coldly (which is another debate in and of itself). Sympathy, in this case, does not mean a reduction in sentence, necessarily, but an attitude towards the person's incarceration.


-TheE-

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by TheEschatonAnd, when you can't determine something, my philosophy is to go with the behavior that assumes the best of people and is the most loving. Maybe you think it's a bit naive, but I think the world could use a bit more of it.

Great, that guy can start with it.


If a man is genuinely entitled to something, but isn't getting it.....should he not be allowed to feel entitled to it?
Yeah?

So if he felt entitled to the fare it'd be okay for him to beat up a passenger and steal the fare money from her? You'd make excuses for that too?

Or maybe he could've taken out his rage against society by pulling a knife and cutting Mint's face up some, huh? You'd make excuses for that too?

Well I got two words for you

FUCK THAT

[HarmNone]

I think what you are describing is "empathy", TheE, not "sympathy". While I might empathically understand how adverse circumstances might cause aberrant behavior in a given individual, I do not share those experiences; therefore, I cannot sympathize with the individual in question. Sympathy would imply a sharing of those experiences and the feelings and behaviors they bring about.

HarmNone feels the difference between these two concepts is important, if one wishes to be truly helpful to anyone

[TheEschaton]

I never said that.

Feeling entitled does not allow you to act out violently to get the entitlement. He obviously felt entitled, and he went about expressing that in a completely wrong fashion. Doesn't mean people aren't allowed to feel entitled to what they deserve.


-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

I can never remember the difference between empathy and sympathy anyways.

Sympathy requires sharing of experience? So I cannot be sympathetic towards a homeless man because I've never been homeless?

Sympathy is, what, "same feeling", while empathy is what kind of feeling?

-TheE-

[HarmNone]

Nobody here ever said what the guy was entitled to FEEL. What we have been discussing is what he is entitled to DO about what he FEELS! Sheesh!

HarmNone wonders how some peoples' minds work :?:

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I can never remember the difference between empathy and sympathy anyways.

Sympathy requires sharing of experience? So I cannot be sympathetic towards a homeless man because I've never been homeless?

Sympathy is, what, "same feeling", while empathy is what kind of feeling?

-TheE-

To sympathize, you must experience the feelings of another as though the feelings were shared between you and the other person.

Empathy is an understanding of those feelings, but not a sharing of them. Empathy allows a therapeutic relationship between the two people, but maintains an emotional distance at the same time.

In other words, empathy allows one to be helpful, perhaps, while not getting down and mucking about in the emotional mess another may have created for him/herself.

HarmNone

[TheEschaton]

Then why aren't they sympaths, instead of empaths? ;)


After all, they physically take the wounds.

-TheE-

The above was made in a joking manner.

P.S. I was never arguing about what the man was entitled to do about what he feels. That would be boring, as I think anyone can agree that what he did was wrong. I don't like boring debates. His action is wrong, regardless, it is his feelings behind it which give it flavor and determine how we should treat Mint's restitution/his retribution.

[HarmNone]

I have but three things to say to your last post, TheE:

1. Every discussion on these boards is not a debate, nor should it be.

2. What is boring to you is not, necessarily, boring to everyone.

3. Were I to play an Empath in Elanthia, said empath would be empathic, not sympathic. When taken, the wounds of another would not inflict the same suffering on the Empath as that of the original wounded. The suffering would be felt with detachment, as is fitting an Empath as I see one to be.

:)

HarmNone

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
And once-white sneakers held together with duct tape. Why does everyone hate on my fashion sense? :( :( Duct tape saves me hundreds a year on buying new clothes/shoes/wallets/guitars.

[Skirmisher]

Duct tape is your friend.

[Atlanteax]

Anyone else wondering if "TheEschaton" is protesting so vigorously because he regularly makes a habit out of stiffing fares? ... and just doesn't want to feel guilty about his sense of "entitlement"?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Anyone else wondering if "TheEschaton" is protesting so vigorously because he regularly makes a habit out of stiffing fares? ... and just doesn't want to feel guilty about his sense of "entitlement"? That's definitely just you, bud.

[Skirmisher]

Okay, that made me laugh.

[AnticorRifling]

I just started reading this thread. And all I saw was blah blah blah someone spit on someone else blah blah blah.

Nothing else in that entire post matters. Once you do some bullshit like that I don't care what your situation you have no right to do some shit like that and I, for one, would have called the cops in a second.

Bleeding heart, stone cold heart, it doesn't matter he was wrong and it isn't her job to have sympathy for him spitting on her.

[Galleazzo]

Word.

Hope the guy enjoyed jail.

:grr:

[TheEschaton]

I always pay the bus fare, if I so happen to find myself on the bus.

-TheE-

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Doesn't mean people aren't allowed to feel entitled to what they deserve.


-TheE-

Who says he deserved to ride the bus for free?

What if Mint went ahead and let him, and every other cretin that felt entitled to a literal free ride, get on for free every day?

What if as a result, the bus company went out of business, and the people who pay their fare every day (because maybe they can't afford a car) now did not have a means of transportation?

Forget the fact that he spit on her. If he deserved to ride for free (which I doubt), it is not Mint's job to make that distinction, and he should seek the aid elsewhere - through established channels.

-K

[Souzy]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Oh, Lalana, as long as Eschaton was the cop that came to ask you why you beat the shit out of him, all you would've had to say is, "well, he pushed my frustration level to this point and I felt I had to react. Since I spend my free time playing a fairly violent text-based game the likes of which is a complete societal norm, this is all I knew how to do - so don't blame me."

-K



ROFLMAO! Too funny.