REALLY Good Charge Item Guide

[Asrial]

Does anyone have a charge item guide that explains the different messaging and situations?

Basically.. how to know when you should stop trying to charge an item, what's a failure on your part but not the item, the various catastrophic failures and what generally causes it, etc.

[BriarFox]

The guy to ask for that is Jinsem. He did extensive research. He never published his results, though, and I'm pretty sure he's not returning.

[Asrial]

Are there any others more accessible? I'll send him a PM but yeah, if I can't get in touch with him or if he doesn't want to share, I'm back to square one.

[Fallen]

Glanvis often plays with Charge Item. Do you know him?

[Asrial]

Very much, but by name alone.

[Asrial]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Charge_Item_(guide)

One thing that's curious that he [Jinsem] mentions in his guide...

"A while back I recall seeing that the first 2 rubs were a “freebie” when using charge. In other words, if you are trained with the minimal skills for what you are attempting you should be safe for the first 2 rubs. After the 2nd rub, your chance of harming/degrading the item becomes increasingly easier."

I wonder when that "first 2 rubs" resets. Is it tracked via the orb? Is it tracked like loresinging an item (where you loresing to something in your left hand to reset being able to loresing the item in your right)?

[thefarmer]

Glanvis often plays with Charge Item. Do you know him?

Which Glanvis? He's been sold how many times?

[Fallen]

Ah crap, I named the wrong character. Cruush is who I was thinking of. He is a Giantman Wizard. Glanvis is a ranger. My mistake.

I am wrong all over the place.

[Asrial]

I know him fairly well too.. but again only by name.

[Jinsem]

Credit was given to all that helped at the bottom of the guide. I'm shocked they haven't changed it yet...

[Methais]

Does anyone have a charge item guide that explains the different messaging and situations?

Basically.. how to know when you should stop trying to charge an item, what's a failure on your part but not the item, the various catastrophic failures and what generally causes it, etc.

If it's a low level non-wizard spell, I wouldn't bother rubbing the orb more than once or twice unless you enjoy items turning green and becoming useless.

The majority of your failures will be due to the system being nerfed into near uselessness, assuming you're trained even halfway normally for a wizard.

[Das Uberdog]

i'm confused regarding Elemental Mana Control & the Charge Item guide.. in the guide it says that someone determined that 10 ranks of EMC reduces the out of circle penalty by 1. it's not clear what this means.

for example, 117 is a spiritual spell and should cost 17 * 3 = 51 per charge, correct?

the guide states that 200 ranks of EMC will remove the penalty and make it cost the base cost, 17 mana.

but that's only a 20 mana reduction according to the first rule.. so you would end up with 51 - 20 = 31..

am i doing it wrong? which one is the right way? my goal is to train the bare minimum for charging 215 or maybe 117 without penalty..

thanks in advance

[Herachio]

It's every 5 ranks reduces the out of circle penalty by 1. So, 150 ranks is enough for 215 but you'll need 170 ranks to reduce the crystals to 17 mana. Not sure why Jinsems guide is wrong on that, but he is correct that 200 ranks will reduce a blue crystal to 17 mana. So, the max you can reduce the out of circle mana penalty is 40. Ruby amulets will still cost 80 mana to recharge, not that anyone actually bothers with those anymore.

[Das Uberdog]

thanks, Herachio!

[Das Uberdog]

ok fellow wizarddudes, i uploaded a script to the Lich repo called charge.lic

the script basically just does math for you, it takes the spell you're charging as the only parameter. it will rub the charging orb and see how much mana was used in the rub. it'll take your EMC & the spell level and determine how many charges were added.

i used a decimal for the charges because it might interest you.. i had even charge numbers (e.g. added 2.0 charges) almost always, but got some interesting results (e.g. added 2.000025252525 charges) that might be useful.

requirements:

- pulsating orb is in the room with you and ready to be rubbed (i.e. humming with tones or woteva).. if there is any other form the orb can take please let me know 'cuz i am a charging noob.

- item to be charged is in your right hand

example usage:

;charge 303

let me know if it works for you!

[Herachio]

Wow, that sounds useful. I wish I had more time to learn and use this Lich thing. There is no other form for the orb, but you should make your script put "rub pulsating orb" or at least "rub pul orb" rather than just rub orb if you didn't.

[Das Uberdog]

thanks, Herachio. it uses object IDs so it should only match the proper orb in the room (not anything you're holding or in inventory).

i put up another script, this one is really quick & dirty, it mass-grots gems.

;massgrot sack_name

if the gem is an orb gem it will put it back in the sack after grot, if the potion evaporates it will put it in your lootsack (;set add lootsack sackname)

make sure your loot sack is open & the sack_name is open, and that you have an open container on you with a bunch of grot potions in it. make sure you have enough potions to do the job.

this is a real quick script so please don't expect it to be super friendly (e.g. if you run out of potions halfway through, you'll have a sack with a bunch of poured gems and fresh gems mixed in), but it will work.

[Wolfnatas]

Does anyone have a charge item guide that explains the different messaging and situations?

Basically.. how to know when you should stop trying to charge an item, what's a failure on your part but not the item, the various catastrophic failures and what generally causes it, etc.

Did you ever find a good guide or script for this?

[phantasm]

I think the best information is that you should do 2 rubs and stop. There is no messaging like purifying gems that tells you your about to destroy the item, it just happens, randomly and without warning.

[Wolfnatas]

But surely people don't waste their time only putting two rubs into recharged gold / metal wands do they? 1 rub = 1 use of the wand, right?

[Qualdon]

Which Glanvis? He's been sold how many times?

Too bad my old character is now in the "don't pay any attention to him, he's one of the Doorknobs" (everyone gets a turn).

Hope all's well with everyone! Keep on keepin' on.

Marc

[phantasm]

Items have a max # of charges, apparently starting at 40, this number will degrade with time.

Individual wizards depending on a skills/stats/spell being charged, have a max # that they are able to do.

I've seen the research that shows how much mana each charge will use.

There is also something going on involving the mana I have available.

If I'm at full and rub the orb, it will add 10 charges, but it if I'm at half mana but still have enough mana for 10 charges, it will only add 3 to to the item.

[Fallen]

If I'm at full and rub the orb, it will add 10 charges, but it if I'm at half mana but still have enough mana for 10 charges, it will only add 3 to to the item.

That's dumb if it is true.

[Fleurs]

It is true, it doesn't add all the charges you have the mana for with each rub of the orb, but if you rub with less mana, you will get fewer charges in.

[phantasm]

That post sorta lays out some open questions that could use more research.

A general rule I use, if your doing a spell that requires more than 1 rub to max capacity.

Wait for your mana bar to refill completely before doing the second, third, ....

This will result in getting more charges per rub and reduce your chance of failure and possibly(?) reduce degradation to the item.

[Fallen]

That post sorta lays out some open questions that could use more research.

A general rule I use, if your doing a spell that requires more than 1 rub to max capacity.

Wait for your mana bar to refill completely before doing the second, third, ....

This will result in getting more charges per rub and reduce your chance of failure and possibly(?) reduce degradation to the item.

All the more reason to be in COL as a wizard. Rub once, wrack, rub again, wrack. If it needs more charges than that, you're probably risking too much. Obviously, i'm talking about having 11+ spirit, but that isn't too hard to manage these days.

[Fleurs]

Even post-cap, being less than full spirit causes MAJOR penalties to charging success unless you're only doing wands or something disposable. I never wrack any more, I have friends do it for me when I charge, unless there's someone to WOL immediately.

[Fallen]

Even post-cap, being less than full spirit causes MAJOR penalties to charging success unless you're only doing wands or something disposable. I never wrack any more, I have friends do it for me when I charge, unless there's someone to WOL immediately.

Wow. Again, this surprises me. Are the penalties associated with a less than full head of mana, and a less than full amount of spirit verified by a GM, or just noted through observation? If either of these are true, then it is just sickening. There are several examples of similar spells which face no such penalty. Does anyone have a GM post on these two points? I would ask for someone to start digging, but you might just end up getting other spells nerfed.

[Fleurs]

I've charged thousands of items and every time I wracked and was under 6 spirit, bad things happened that never happen normally, so I just don't do it any more. It can't be that much coincidence.

Being less than at full mana doesn't impose as large a penalty, but when I get under 1/2 my head of mana, I get fewer charges per item regardless of how many times I had previously rubbed the orb. The last 40 mana or so in your head is pretty much lost if you're charging an out of circle spell regardless of the actual mana cost of the spell. I can use up all of my mana if I'm charging golden wands, for example, but for other things it will give me a message that I don't have enough mana for it even if I clearly do.

[Fallen]

I've charged thousands of items and every time I wracked and was under 6 spirit, bad things happened that never happen normally, so I just don't do it any more. It can't be that much coincidence.

Being less than at full mana doesn't impose as large a penalty, but when I get under 1/2 my head of mana, I get fewer charges per item regardless of how many times I had previously rubbed the orb. The last 40 mana or so in your head is pretty much lost if you're charging an out of circle spell regardless of the actual mana cost of the spell. I can use up all of my mana if I'm charging golden wands, for example, but for other things it will give me a message that I don't have enough mana for it even if I clearly do.


Well, if it were anyone else other than Naos at the helm of wizards I would say take it to the boards and ask for a well deserved change. However, you can be told to, "Go fuck yourself" right here, so there's no sense bothering with all that typing.

[Fleurs]

Agreed.

[Naeron]

Wow, Marc... that is truly a sad thing to hear. =(

Also, thanks for making this thread. I ruined a spirit barrier rechargeable but I think I had wracked at the time.

[Das Uberdog]

I've also noticed some of the stuff above while charging recently. I'm going to start updating my charging script to track more data so hopefully we can figure out how some of these things work.

In particular I want to know the max charges that can be added & what it's based on. I also want to know how the orb degrades over time. For example it looks like I can put max +10 rubs into a blue crystal with my current training, and as the charging process goes on and the orb degrades that will drop to 9 and eventually 8. Knowing how that works would be nice.

[Das Uberdog]

Okay, I updated the charge script (script thread: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=57123).

To get the rub data do:

;e send_to_script("charge", "Rub data")

Here is the output:




Rub data:

Rub #0 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 175/196 (89.29)% -> 125/196 (63.78)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 0 -> 2 +2 charges
Rub #1 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 196/196 (100.0)% -> 121/196 (61.73)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 2 -> 5 +3 charges
Rub #2 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 121/196 (61.73)% -> 121/196 (61.73)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 2 -> 5 Minor failure - unable to properly channel flows
Rub #3 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 196/196 (100.0)% -> 171/196 (87.24)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 5 -> 6 +1 charges
Rub #4 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 171/196 (87.24)% -> 121/196 (61.73)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 6 -> 8 +2 charges
Rub #5 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 121/196 (61.73)% -> 121/196 (61.73)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 6 -> 8 Minor failure - unable to properly channel flows
Rub #6 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 196/196 (100.0)% -> 171/196 (87.24)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 8 -> 9 +1 charges
Rub #7 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 171/196 (87.24)% -> 171/196 (87.24)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 8 -> 9 Minor failure - unable to properly channel flows
Rub #8 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 170/196 (86.73)% -> 145/196 (73.98)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 9 -> 10 +1 charges
Rub #9 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 145/196 (73.98)% -> 120/196 (61.22)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 10 -> 11 +1 charges
Rub #10 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 120/196 (61.22)% -> 120/196 (61.22)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 10 -> 11 Minor failure - unable to properly channel flows
Rub #11 small statue 1712 Encumb: 0% MP: 187/196 (95.41)% -> 187/196 (95.41)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 10 -> 11 Minor failure - unable to properly channel flows
Rub #12 quartz orb 1711 Encumb: 0% MP: 187/196 (95.41)% -> 99/196 (50.51)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 0 -> 4 +4 charges
Rub #13 quartz orb 1711 Encumb: 0% MP: 104/196 (53.06)% -> 38/196 (19.39)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 4 -> 7 +3 charges
Rub #14 quartz orb 1711 Encumb: 0% MP: 173/196 (88.27)% -> 129/196 (65.82)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 7 -> 9 +2 charges
Rub #15 quartz orb 1711 Encumb: 0% MP: 129/196 (65.82)% -> 107/196 (54.59)% SP: 8/8 (100.0)% Charges: 9 -> 10 +1 charges

STR: 93 (36) CON: 91 (30) DEX: 87 (13) AGI: 93 (16) DIS: 86 (18)
AUR: 82 (11) LOG: 85 (12) INT: 85 (17) WIS: 88 (19) INF: 64 (12)
Level: 55 EMC: 57 HP: 55 MIU: 114 MjE: 51 Encumb: 0
Total mana used: 495


I'm going to add tracking of how many times/when you had to recast 517 on the orb, since that may affect things.

We should use science to find out:

How does the orb degrade over time/rubs?
What skills determine the max # of charges you can put into an item?
How does that relate to the orb degradation?
How does your max mana / percentage of mana, spirit, and encumbrance affect charging?

If you guys want to help me collect sum data, please get buck naked when you charge, note whether you're in a workshop, and the value of the gem used in the charging.

Thanks!