Training Advice - Archery

[Elgrim]

Having just returned from a long vacation and attempting to learn the ins and outs of the new system, I thought this might be a good place to post my current training and look for some pointers.

Currently:
2x Armor
2x Ranged
2x Hiding
2x Ambush
2x Dodge
2x Percep
1x PT
1x CM

Misc Skills
2x Pick
2x Disarm
30 ranks climb
30 ranks swim
30 ranks arcane symbols
15 ranks MUI
10 ranks harness

Have been considering dropping my armor use to 1x which would give me enough points to 3x dodge. Just not sure that is a good call.

Thoughts?

[Endlin]

Looks fine. 2x armor is fine, 3x dodge is also good. It really just depends on how quickly you want to get into plate. You can't go wrong with either.

With 2x picking/disarm you're going to want to learn lock and disarm ehancements eventually (403 and 404). You can get by with scrolls or imbeds for a while but having those self cast is going to eventually be a necessity to pick most of your own boxes. Even then you're going to run into some you won't be able to pick (this is likely a ways off though, I'd say around level 50-60 is when this becomes an issue).

And depending on where you're going to be hunting you probably don't need to be in any hurry to get to 30 ranks of swimming. And I think you could use just a little more MIU for e-wave imbeds to activate 100 percent of the time, and a little more duration on your small statues.

Way way down the road, you're going to want a lot more magic ranks because chances are you're going to be dealing with spellburst. But you probably don't need to worry about that yet.

[Endlin]

Also if you are new to archery, reading this can't hurt.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=49785

[Elgrim]

Read it, tons of great info there that shed some light on things for me.

I don't think I will be pushing to plate anytime soon, so I may just drop to 1x armor and pick up the 3x dodge. I'll start to work in some MIU and such as well.

My biggest fear with learning spells is the hit to redux. I was hoping to avoid it.

[Endlin]

At 1x PT your redux isn't going to be spectacular anyway.

I'm no expert on the subject but I'm pretty certain that ever 20 levels allows you to know 1 spell without any effect on redux. So at level 80 you could know 4 spells without any penalty.

[kookiegod]

This is my archery rogue, I haven't played him much lately as I'm doing LFM with him, but he does great in combat.

(at level 44), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 192 92
Shield Use.........................| 15 3
Combat Maneuvers...................| 146 46
Ranged Weapons.....................| 196 96
Physical Fitness...................| 169 69
Dodging............................| 241 141
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 131 35
Elemental Mana Control.............| 10 2
Disarming Traps....................| 192 92
Picking Locks......................| 192 92
Perception.........................| 192 92
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Training Points: 4 Phy 22 Mnt


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Stun Maneuvers stunman 2
Specialization I wspec1 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 5
>soc

Current society status:
You are a Master in the Council of Light.

You are a Master of Sweep.
You have 12 ranks in the Lock Mastery skill.
You are a Master of Cheap Shot.
You have 15 ranks in the Rogue Gambits skill.

Odd points are enhansives.

I use a lot of magic toys, but done with training that, all going into armor/pf/spells now.

~Paul

[Elgrim]

No ambush?

[droit]

Paul is anti-ambush for archers, but I disagree with him. Not everyone has access to top-end gear. Rogues get ambush relatively cheap, too, so I say go for it.

[BriarFox]

Dodge will give you around .75 melee and about 1.15 bolt DS per rank. If you're hurting for DS, train the 3x dodge. If not, don't worry about it. Same for the Ambush - past 40 ranks, each 4 ranks net you 1 AS. If you're having problems AS-wise, then 2x it.

For a rogue, Surge of Strength and Shadow Mastery (if sniping) are excellent maneuvers.

[Endlin]

Don't skip ambush. Don't skip hiding. If you don't wanna do either of those things be a friggin bard or something.

[Elgrim]

Surge lowers RT only correct? Will not impact AS for bows?


If given this list, what order would you put CMAN needs in? Assume I am going the sniping route.

Shadow Mastery
Surge of Strength
Weapon Spec
Multi-Fire
anything else?

I'm currently untraining CMAN since I just switched to archery, so will have a clean slate soon to work with.

[BriarFox]

Surge lowers RT only correct? Will not impact AS for bows?


If given this list, what order would you put CMAN needs in? Assume I am going the sniping route.

Shadow Mastery
Surge of Strength
Weapon Spec
Multi-Fire
anything else?

I'm currently untraining CMAN since I just switched to archery, so will have a clean slate soon to work with.

Surge boosts your Strength Bonus, which will reduce your RT (to a minimum of 3) for every +10 integral. Doesn't have any effect on AS, nope. They also borked it up by giving it a cooldown period (they did the same to Shadow Mastery), but it's still good.

I'd balance them. Get 2-3 ranks each of Weapon Spec (arrows, not bows), Surge, and Shadow Mastery, then max whatever one you think is the most useful to you. I'd probably start with Surge, myself, then SM, then WS.

Forget about multi-fire. It's fun, but useless mechanically. You can fire aimed arrows faster than you can fire two or three unaimed arrows with it.

[Endlin]

Surge lowers RT only correct? Will not impact AS for bows?


If given this list, what order would you put CMAN needs in? Assume I am going the sniping route.

Shadow Mastery
Surge of Strength
Weapon Spec
Multi-Fire
anything else?

I'm currently untraining CMAN since I just switched to archery, so will have a clean slate soon to work with.

What race are you playing and what kind of bow do you want to use? Depending on your access to wizard strength and your race, surge of strength may be the best idea early on. And you are correct, it won't add to your ranged AS.

Weapon spec is nice to have but 5 ranks is pretty expensive, I stayed at 3 ranks for a long time. Also keep in mind you want to spec to your ammunition type (arrows) not your bow.

Multi-fire is useless in most archers opinions, a few people like it. I personally wouldn't bother with it early on, if ever.

Shadow mastery is nice to have but I wouldn't call it necessary until way later on in levels. When more and more critters are casting nasty things at you, and sneaking is important. Given the fact that you aren't racing to plate, learning it early on may not be a bad idea either though.

The first thing I would learn if I were you is combat mobility. Even one rank is pretty darn nice. The second rank should be a goal, but given how expensive it is, a distant one.

[kookiegod]

Ok, I disagree Droit...

40 ranks of ambush gets you +1 AS. Huge amount of TP for +1. 4 ranks per for another +1. I'd rather put that into skills that are useful (and in my choice, magical skills and armor) so i can be in full plate and run a bunch of spells. Eventually I'll get it if I ever get post cap, but its the journey.

As far as hiding, another choice being 3x in dodge, I rarely get hit, the diff is amazing between my 1x dodge ranger and the 3x dodge rogue. Huge amount of DS and evade, I can just go out and fire, fire, fire, and be fried in 5 mins.

[Asrial]

2x ambush lets me pull out my fist-scythe and use it effectively ;)

[kookiegod]

If given this list, what order would you put CMAN needs in? Assume I am going the sniping route.

Shadow Mastery
Surge of Strength
Weapon Spec
Multi-Fire
anything else?

I'm currently untraining CMAN since I just switched to archery, so will have a clean slate soon to work with.

I'd add at least one rank of combat mobility to that list, saved my bacon more times than I want to think about.

[droit]

Ok, I disagree Droit...

40 ranks of ambush gets you +1 AS. Huge amount of TP for +1. 4 ranks per for another +1. I'd rather put that into skills that are useful (and in my choice, magical skills and armor) so i can be in full plate and run a bunch of spells. Eventually I'll get it if I ever get post cap, but its the journey

Having a high AS is important, especially for open archers. Mind if I ask what AS boosters your rogue and ranger use on an average hunt (spells, enhancives, etc.)?

Ambush is the poor man's AS booster. 2x ambush is only 6/6 per level for a rogue. That ain't bad.

[Elgrim]

Dwarven rogue. Currently using an 8x longbow. I do have a pocket wiz so I am running with wiz strength and the base spellup package at all times.

Using the 9x ecp brig for armor, which is why I doubt I will find better plate for a long long time.

I like the idea of sniping, but definately want the ability to be able to fire from the open safely.

[BriarFox]

Having a high AS is important, especially for open archers. Mind if I ask what AS boosters your rogue and ranger use on an average hunt (spells, enhancives, etc.)?

Ambush is the poor man's AS booster. 2x ambush is only 6/6 per level for a rogue. That ain't bad.

Not compared to 9/9 for a ranger. >: (

[BriarFox]

Dwarven rogue. Currently using an 8x longbow. I do have a pocket wiz so I am running with wiz strength and the base spellup package at all times.

Using the 9x ecp brig for armor, which is why I doubt I will find better plate for a long long time.

I like the idea of sniping, but definately want the ability to be able to fire from the open safely.

Heh. You're fine. Do whatever the hell you want.

[kookiegod]

Having a high AS is important, especially for open archers. Mind if I ask what AS boosters your rogue and ranger use on an average hunt (spells, enhancives, etc.)?

Ambush is the poor man's AS booster. 2x ambush is only 6/6 per level for a rogue. That ain't bad.

Average hunt... the rogue is in 6x vhcp breastplate with the crossbow combo. He has +6 total in ranged enhansives. Spells, a full wizard and cleric spellup and with thalior's staff, gets 507, 508, 913, 903 (ditto with the ranger), the ranger likewise gets the same spells but not the staff, and he's in padded brig, no enhansives.

Also my guys are 21 (ranger) and 44 (rogue) so I dont get ANY bonus from ambush really at this time but I do get to use the points to do other stuff.

~Paul

[Endlin]

Of all the times you've posted your builds in response to questions in the rogue section, I've never seen what you're doing with those points.

I'm not trying to be a dick but for a build with zero hiding and zero ambush... I do not see the trade off. So it leaves me wondering why you're so eager to advise people to skip them.

[HSB]

<threadhijack>

So, I have a rogue of 80 trains who's about to undergo The Change (fixskills) due to the fact that I need a picker. So I'm contemplating a Ranged Build, since a) I've never done it, and b) Cheaper TP Cost. How's about this:

80 Armor use (MBP or Hauberk)
162 Ranged (2x)
162 Thrown (2x)
123 CM (1.5x)
162 Ambush (2x)
81 Physical Fitness (1x)
123 Dodge (1.5x
30 Climb
30 Swim
162 Pick Locks (2x)
162 Disarm Traps (2x)
246 Stalking / Hiding (3x)
162 Perception (2x)
10 Arcane Symbols
5 Harness Power

I keep playing with the points, trying to decide if I want to be able to hurl (again falling under the never tried it sector), go to 2x or even 3x in Dodge or CMans. Even tinkered with the idea of making him a spellslinger. If the above build doesn't have any major intrinsic flaws, I might give it a go, as it sounds fun. But if there's something I'm overlooking, or something that just isn't going to work this way, please let me know. He'll always have a full spellup, so I don't THINK I need to worry about his DS... or do I? Again... never done this before. :help:

</threadhijack>

[mgoddess]

If you're hunting in spellburst areas, you'll need more AS/MIU ranks to cover your full spellup.

Personally, I'd suggest getting 1.5-2x in brawling, instead of thrown. Gives you brawling DS, and I've heard the thrown system is screwed up (though, apparently there's a thrown review in the works! LOL).

Depending on which CMan's you're looking at using (Surge, Smastery, Mobility, Toughness, etc.), you may be able to drop some ranks of that to stick into Dodging.

Of course, feel free to take the above with a grain of salt. I've never hunted an archer at such a level, so I'm just giving suggestions based off of what I've seen other people doing.

[Endlin]

<threadhijack>

So, I have a rogue of 80 trains who's about to undergo The Change (fixskills) due to the fact that I need a picker. So I'm contemplating a Ranged Build, since a) I've never done it, and b) Cheaper TP Cost. How's about this:

80 Armor use (MBP or Hauberk)
162 Ranged (2x)
162 Thrown (2x)
123 CM (1.5x)
162 Ambush (2x)
81 Physical Fitness (1x)
123 Dodge (1.5x
30 Climb
30 Swim
162 Pick Locks (2x)
162 Disarm Traps (2x)
246 Stalking / Hiding (3x)
162 Perception (2x)
10 Arcane Symbols
5 Harness Power

I keep playing with the points, trying to decide if I want to be able to hurl (again falling under the never tried it sector), go to 2x or even 3x in Dodge or CMans. Even tinkered with the idea of making him a spellslinger. If the above build doesn't have any major intrinsic flaws, I might give it a go, as it sounds fun. But if there's something I'm overlooking, or something that just isn't going to work this way, please let me know. He'll always have a full spellup, so I don't THINK I need to worry about his DS... or do I? Again... never done this before. :help:

</threadhijack>

At 80 trains and 2x pick/disarm, you're going to need lores. No way of getting around that... You will not be able to pick your own boxes.

Other than that... I personally wouldn't be thrilled with 1.5x dodge, but if you find it doable, go for it I guess? My thinking is just that 1.5x dodge = a bit lacking for DS and evading and at 1x PF, even in MBP you're going to get beat up when you're caught in the open.

I'd also recomend OHE over thrown (or brawling, unless you're voln) if you want a secondary weapon style, 2x ambush with a handaxe usually does the trick. And having two ranged attacks sounds like a bit of overkill. But if the idea of thrown is really that fun to you.. Screw it. That is the point, after all.

There was a thread recently where someone had done a ranged/thrown build I think...

Edit: Oh yeah and definitely more magic ranks if you're going near a spellburst area, as was already mentioned.

[kookiegod]

Of all the times you've posted your builds in response to questions in the rogue section, I've never seen what you're doing with those points.

I'm not trying to be a dick but for a build with zero hiding and zero ambush... I do not see the trade off. So it leaves me wondering why you're so eager to advise people to skip them.

30 ranks of AS/MIU and 35 of HP.

Lets me use sigils/signs and imbeds to their best abilities.

Hiding just wastes times, its great defense, but so is 3x dodge as in my rogue, and the less time i am in the field, the less I can get hurt. Same with more armor. My ranger is in brig @ 19, my rogue in mbp by 42, I spend my time not getting hit, and the DS of critters to archery is low, so doesn't take much to nail em quickly with haste imbeds.

~Paul

[Endlin]

The only argument I really see there is 3x dodge... Which can be accomplished without skipping hiding or ambush.

I mean... Doing it for the sake of doing it is all well and good. But I'll be eager to see how you feel about not being able to hide, or fire from hiding when you start hunting in higher level areas. If you ever train him up to the point that you're hunting OTF or the Rift.. I'll bet you change your opinion.

If you don't ever plan on getting that high that's one thing. But it kinda irks me a little bit when you passively encourage people not to train their rogues in the best defense they have against spells. Every point you've made has been about getting hit. Getting hit isn't the issue.

[AMUSED1]

To me the best defense against not getting hit by spells is making sure the creature dies or is stunned before it gets a chance to cast. Ranged can easily do that.

[HSB]

Oy. Been playing a waggler too long... forgot about spellburst.

So how's this:
80 Armor
162 (2x) Ranged
81 (1x) Cman
162 (2x) Ambush
81 (1x) PF
162 (2x) Dodge
30 Climb
39 Swim
203 (2.5x) Disarm
246 (3x) Picking
246 (3x) Stalking
162 (2x) Perception
58 Arcane Symbols
10 MIU
5 HP

Primarily going to be a picker, but I'd love to have him viable for bounties and general hunting.

[DaCapn]

Average hunt... the rogue is in 6x vhcp breastplate with the crossbow combo. He has +6 total in ranged enhansives. Spells, a full wizard and cleric spellup and with thalior's staff, gets 507, 508, 913, 903 (ditto with the ranger), the ranger likewise gets the same spells but not the staff, and he's in padded brig, no enhansives.

Also my guys are 21 (ranger) and 44 (rogue) so I dont get ANY bonus from ambush really at this time but I do get to use the points to do other stuff.

~Paul

Did you mean 905, not 903? Full spiritual and elemental spellup, and VHCP armor for a level 44 character. I mean you have it so use it. But it's definitely important to mention that this is your baseline if you're giving training advice.

My cmans look like this, personally:
surge of strength 5
shadow mastery 5
combat mobility 2
(80 points total, smastery is a fucking rip off, EDIT: surge mastered because he's a halfling.)

[Endlin]

To me the best defense against not getting hit by spells is making sure the creature dies or is stunned before it gets a chance to cast. Ranged can easily do that.

Which sounds great in theory. It doesn't always work that way though.

[Endlin]

Oy. Been playing a waggler too long... forgot about spellburst.

So how's this:
80 Armor
162 (2x) Ranged
81 (1x) Cman
162 (2x) Ambush
81 (1x) PF
162 (2x) Dodge
30 Climb
39 Swim
203 (2.5x) Disarm
246 (3x) Picking
246 (3x) Stalking
162 (2x) Perception
58 Arcane Symbols
10 MIU
5 HP

Primarily going to be a picker, but I'd love to have him viable for bounties and general hunting.

Probably still going to need lores a lot of the time. Though at 3x it might be easier to get by with imbeds/scrolls. See how it goes I guess.

Other than that you're fine.

[kookiegod]

The only argument I really see there is 3x dodge... Which can be accomplished without skipping hiding or ambush.

I mean... Doing it for the sake of doing it is all well and good. But I'll be eager to see how you feel about not being able to hide, or fire from hiding when you start hunting in higher level areas. If you ever train him up to the point that you're hunting OTF or the Rift.. I'll bet you change your opinion.

If you don't ever plan on getting that high that's one thing. But it kinda irks me a little bit when you passively encourage people not to train their rogues in the best defense they have against spells. Every point you've made has been about getting hit. Getting hit isn't the issue.

I guess I dont see what irk you, not getting hit is not getting hit, whether its in hiding, or spell tanking or haste firing from the open.

I will grant you IF i ever get to cap areas and thats not ever gonna happen, I can't get my cleric past 84 and its been 15 years, then the rogue never gonna see it, then you might be right, but at this point, haste imbeds and others are cheap, tank up, haste fire, and spend less time hunting.

~Paul

[droit]

Speaking from a ranger archer perspective, there's no need for hiding at later levels. None. It may be different for rogues, but from what I've seen, most capped rogue archers don't hide either. Sniping seems to be most useful (though still unnecessary) at mid-levels.

[Endlin]

Speaking from a ranger archer perspective, there's no need for hiding at later levels. None. It may be different for rogues, but from what I've seen, most capped rogue archers don't hide either. Sniping seems to be most useful (though still unnecessary) at mid-levels.

Far enough post cap I'd agree with this as a rogue. When I'm wearing 120, I won't care about getting cast at anymore.

Until then... Hiding is the only way I don't die way more often. I know a few others, even some pretty far post cap that completely agree with this.