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BriarFox
02-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Gemstone IV Archery Guide

“The Art of the Bow”
By
Nuadjha kis'Anthri, the Briar Fox
Written February 2010



This guide aims to introduce a new archer to the range of options included in archery in Gemstone IV and to provide him or her some of the basic info that goes in to making a decision in terms of weapon choice and character build, all with an eye toward long-term character viability. Ideally, the information contained within it will also be of use to more experienced archers who would like to double check damage-factor and crit-rank tables or simply expand their own knowledge. The guide breaks down into several parts:

1. Basic Mechanics (and dealing with arrows)
2. Bows vs. Crossbows
3. Firing Times, Aiming, and Sighting
4. Puncture Damage and Fatal Crit Thresholds
5. Puncture Immune and Resistant Creatures
6. Open Aiming vs. Sniping
7. Ranged AS and DS
8. Modifying Skills, Spells, and Effects
9. Fletching
10. Sample Builds
11. Useful Links
12. Thanks
13. Appendix (Puncture Critical Table) (Following Post)

1. Basic Mechanics:
Bows and crossbows require ammunition, which can either be purchased at bowyer's shop, bought from other players, or made by the archer (see Fletching). Many people find ammunition to be the most irritating of the requirements for archery and the requirement turns many people off. Done properly, however, it's a very simple adjustment. For additional information, see the AIM and FIRE commands in the game.

You may hold your bow in either hand, though the game will automatically place it in your left hand (if it's free) if you use the READY and UNSHEATHE verbs.

Commands:
For Bows:

To get an arrow from a bundle:
>Get 1 my arrow from my (container) (or get 1 my (adjective) arrow from my container), Ex. Get 1 my faewood arrow from my quiver

To aim at a body part:
>aim (body part) – Ex. Aim right eye.

To fire:
>fire (creature), Ex. Fire third orc

To retrieve arrows on the ground:
>gather (arrows), Ex. Gather faewood arrows


For Crossbows:
Crossbows require two extra steps beyond bows. You must also COCK the crossbow and LOAD the bolt into the crossbow.

Macros:
Some simple macros or scripts can make your life much easier.

Example Macro:
>Get 1 my faewood arrow\r fire\r

This macro will get and fire one arrow at an already targeted creature or the first in attack order in the room. You'd only have to hit F1 or the designated key to activate it.

Example Script:
# reye
Put aim right eye
Put get 1 my faewood arrow from my quiver
Put fire %1

This script would aim for the right eye, get an arrow, and fire at the creature you designate in the command line. Ex: .reye orc would fire an arrow at the orc's right eye.


Dealing with Blessed or E-Bladed Arrows:
You might find that you end up with a pile of single, uncharged arrows and a bundle of charged ones, and they can't be bundled back together, or perhaps you're running out of charges faster than you expect. That's because when you bless or e-blade a bundle of arrows, the *bundle* keeps the total number of charges. When you get an arrow, the arrow takes *two* charges with it. One gets used when you fire, the other remains so that you can put that arrow back in the bundle without any trouble, because you can't bundle two different arrows together (even if they only cost a silver more or less). Just make sure that you only fire arrows taken fresh from the bundle, and that you gather everything up and bundle them back together before you move on, and you'll be fine. You can always LOOK at the arrow to see if it's glowing with a holy light (blessed) or has a scintillating aura (e-bladed), too. Watch out for other people's arrows on the ground if another archer is hunting near you; you won't be able to bundle that other "wooden arrow" with yours if it has an ice eblade while yours have a fire eblade. You can tell by the color of the aura when you look at it.

Tip: You can add up to 999 charges to a bundle, and if you e-blade a couple of smaller bundles, you can bundle them together to get a nicely charged one that'll last you awhile.

2. Bows vs. Crossbows
Bows and crossbows come in two categories and five types: short bow, composite bow, long bow, light crossbow and heavy crossbow. Each has its advantages, though most experienced archers prefer the long bow. The basic rule is that the lighter the bow, the faster it fires and the weaker its damage factor (DF), which means that it doesn't do as much damage when it hits. This rule can get complicated, though, because the GS combat system takes into account a number of factors, including the type of bow, the target's armor, the target's natural critical or damage padding (if any), and your Dexterity Bonus (for critical weighting – see Ranged AS). Though crossbows are slower in most cases than bows, they add a +30 AS when fired while kneeling. Many people keep a couple cocked and loaded as backups, even if they normally use a bow. See the tables below for detailed information on calculating damage based on bow type, armor and wound location.

Base weapon weights (courtesy of Mark):

Bows (short, composite, long): 3 pounds
Light crossbow: 8 pounds
Heavy crossbow: 12 pounds

Another note on weights:
In addition to the weights above, a bundle of 100 arrows weighs 10lbs. However, warrior sheaths weigh .5lbs and can hold up to five weapons, reducing their weights by 2lbs each to a minimum of .5lbs. If you use a warrior-made quiver, you can carry a 3lb bow and four bundles of 20 arrows (2lbs each) at 5lbs of encumbrance (.5lb quiver weight, 1lb bow weight, .5lb bundle weights). If encumbrance is an issue for your character, you might use this method. Props go to Droit for realizing the utility of warrior sheaths for this purpose.


3. Firing Times

Bows:
Base RT:
Short bows – 5 seconds
Composite bows – 6 seconds
Long bows – 7 seconds

Crossbows:
Cocking time – varies depending on character Strength, wounds, and position (lying, standing, etc.)
Firing time – 2 seconds

The Base RT of a firing time is modified by character Strength Bonus and Strength spells and enhancives. For each 10 STR Bonus, 1 second is deducted from the firing RT. If an archer aims, this adds one second, and if an archer fires from hiding, this adds another second.

Example:
Nuadjha has a STR bonus of 25 and as a ranger uses Phoen's Strength (+10 Strength Bonus). This combination produces a STR Bonus of 35. With Wizard Strength (509), he can add another +15 STR Bonus and have a total Bonus of +50, which reduces his firing time by 5 seconds.

A STR Bonus of 50 produces these times for a longbow (base 7 seconds). Minimum RT is 3 seconds:

Open unaimed: 3 seconds (7-5 is 2, but the minimum RT is 3)
Open aimed: 3 seconds (8-5)
Hiding unaimed: 3 seconds (8-5)
Hiding aimed: 4 seconds (9-5)

Aiming:
The basic rule here is that the smaller target, the harder it is to hit. A young archer will have great difficulty hitting anything, much less the smallest targets, like the eyes. Experienced archers will almost always aim for the eyes because of the low fatal crit rank threshold (rank 4 – see below), but younger archers will have better luck aiming for a leg, knocking the creature down, and then aiming for the neck or eyes.

Aiming from the open relies solely on the Perception Skill, while aiming from hiding relies on the Perception and Ambush skills.

Factors that affect aiming other than trainable skills are level vs. target, encumbrance, wounds on the upper body, and (I believe) profession. Certain spells also help (see below).

Sighting:
Sighting is the ranged version of critical weighting. It follows the same scale as crit and damage weighting (i.e. 10 points is “heavy” sighting). Unlike critical weighting, however, sighting helps you hit your targets rather than increasing the crit rank of a wound.

Naturally sighted woods:

Yew – +2, somewhat (5-6 points)
Ipantor – +17, somewhat (Many ipantor bows are decent, apparently due to some aberration that was corrected. Double-check before buying or selling one.)
Sephwir – +25, heavy (9-11 points)

4. Puncture Damage and Fatal Crit Thresholds
There are three basic damage types for weapons in Gemstone – puncture, slash, and crush. Bows and crossbows only do puncture damage. To calculate damage from a hit using a DF table, take the endroll, subtract 100, and multiply the remainder by the DF. This is the “Raw Damage.” Depending on the creature's armor and padding, this raw damage will produce a critical rank of wound, which will add damage to the shot. Use the Puncture Crit Table (see Appendix) to locate wound area and identify crit rank and damage. Armor Crit Divisors (see below) will let you estimate how much raw damage it will take to achieve each crit rank. The information below is courtesy of the QRS (Quick Reference Script) and updated by Mark.



DF Table:

Armor Group ROBES | LEATHER | SCALE | CHAIN | PLATE | RT | D.TYPE | STR/DUR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Light Crossbow .350 | .300 | .325 | .275 | .150 | 2 | P | 50/285
Heavy Crossbow .425 | .325 | .375 | .285 | .175 | 2 | P | 60/315

Short Bow .325 | .225 | .275 | .250 | .100 | 5 | P | 35/180
Composite Bow .350 | .300 | .325 | .275 | .150 | 6 | P | 50/225
Long Bow .400 | .325 | .350 | .300 | .175 | 7 | P | 45/140

Armor Crit Divisors:


ASG/AG/AG Name /Armor Name /Coverage/Crit Divisor
1.. 1. Clothing. Robes................ TALH.... 5
5.. 2. Leather.. Light Leather........ T....... 6
6.. 2. Leather.. Full Leather......... TA...... 6
7.. 2. Leather.. Reinforced Leather... TAL..... 6
8.. 2. Leather.. Double Leather....... TALH.... 6
9.. 3. Scale.... Leather Breastplate.. T....... 7
10. 3. Scale.... Cuirbouilli Leather.. TA...... 7
11. 3. Scale.... Studded Leather...... TAL..... 7
12. 3. Scale.... Brigandine........... TALH.... 7
13. 4. Chain.... Chain Mail........... T....... 9
14. 4. Chain.... Double Chain Mail.... TA...... 9
15. 4. Chain.... Augmented Chain Mail. TAL..... 9
16. 4. Chain.... Chain Hauberk........ TALH.... 9
17. 5. Plate.... Metal Breastplate.... T....... 11
18. 5. Plate.... Augmented Breastplate TA...... 11
19. 5. Plate.... Half Plate Armor..... TAL..... 11
20. 5. Plate.... Plate Mail Armor..... TALH.... 11

AsG – Armor Sub Group
AG – Armor Group
Coverage – Torso, Arms, Legs, Head
Crit Divisor – The amount of damage needed to achieve each critical rank (see crit tables)

Fatal Thresholds for Puncture Criticals:
Eye: 4
Eye: 4
Head: 6
Neck: 6
Chest: 8
Back: 8
Abs: 8

See the Appendix for a full puncture critical table.

5. Puncture Immune and Resistant Creatures
**As of 08/01/11, I believe all previously puncture-immune critters have been updated to puncture-resistant.**

Some creatures in Gemstone still work on an older model (referred to now as pre-BCS – Basic Creature System). Of these creatures, a handful are immune to puncture damage, and as a result they can be an archer's bane. Examples are nightmare steeds, bone golems, and vaespilons. Most are undead. These creatures are slowly being updated to the BCS, which replaces puncture immunity with puncture resistance, which without going into mechanics, simply means that archers will hurt them, but not a lot. As a result of puncture immune and resistant creatures, some archers train in a supplemental hunting method – either another melee weapon or magic. One of the most popular builds of late is the Voln Fu Archer, since the two skills nicely complement each other and have similar requirements in terms of training. The major difference in that path is that an archer will also have to train in Brawling (see Sample Builds below). Others simply ignore these creatures, of which there aren't many.


6. Open Aiming vs. Sniping
The basic choice of an archer's existence is whether to be an open archer or a sniper. Open archers aim and fire without hiding, which has the advantage of speed but exposes the archer to injury. Snipers fire from hiding, which adds RT but can protect the archer. The open archery path requires significantly fewer Training Points, and most archers toward cap prefer it for its speed. However, some characters, whether because of their individual hunting style, level, or roleplay, do prefer to snipe. Sniping is one of the most effective CvC styles in the game, if that's your style. If sniping, train in as much hiding as possible, because some creatures are very perceptive, especially animals and the undead. If one is fighting an undead animal, then hiding may be very difficult. The more you train in hiding, the better your chances of staying hidden while you fire, as well.

Things that affect hiding: Hiding skill bonus, profession bonus, racial bonus, stat bonuses (DIS?), Sneaking, Unpresence, Camouflage, Spirit Fog, Darkness, and CMAN Shadow Mastery.

7. Ranged AS and DS
Ranged AS and DS are the meat and potatoes of archery. See below, but if that information is too arcane, the basics are these: For AS, train ranged skill, ambush and perception (each to 2x). For DS, train ranged skill, ambush, perception (diminishing returns after 2x), and dodge. Armor and bow enchant add directly to DS, just as bow and arrow enchants (up to 10x combined) add to AS.

One of the advantages of ranged weapons is that it's so easy to get a 10x flaring weapon. One only needs a 5x bow and master-fletched, e-bladed arrows to have a +50 weapon with flares of your (mage's) choice. A 6x bow with plain e-bladed arrows is even simpler and doesn't require one to fletch (see below). This bonus follows the same rules as other enchanted weapons, which is bonus/2 (rounded down) determines the level at which you can use the enchant (Ex: +50/2 = level 25). You can hold a 5x bow and 5x arrows at level 13, however, and each level you gain, your AS will increase to the total allowed bonus.

At the lower levels, a new archer will often notice that Ranged AS compares unfavorably to Edged or other melee AS. Training 2x in Ambush and Perception and using a 10x bow/arrow combination, however, means that toward cap, Ranged AS will actually surpass melee AS for most builds (except ones heavily trained in CM, for example). In most cases, however, this relatively lower Ranged AS will make no difference, because creatures' DS to ranged weapons is generally lower (and sometimes much lower) than their DS to melee weapons. Some few creatures are the exceptions, however (i.e. Vvrael warlocks using tower shields).

Ranged AS: DEX Bonus + Bow/Arrow Enchant (+50 max) + Ranged Skill + (((Ambush ranks – 40)/4) + ((Perception ranks – 40)/4)) + Spell effects (211, 215, Warcry, 1606, 425, etc.)

Ranged DS: Ranged Parry Melee DS + Dodge DS + Modifying Skills and Spells + Armor Enchant + Environmental Conditions.

Ranged Parry Melee DS: trunc([(Ranged Skill + trunc(perception ranks/2) + trunc(ambush ranks/2)] * Stance Modifier)) + Bow/Crossbow Enchant Bonus + Stance Bonus.

Dodge DS: trunc((Dodge Ranks + (AGI Bonus) + trunc(INT Bonus/4)) Armor Hindrance Stance Modifier)

Stance Modifiers for Ranged Parry Melee DS:
OFFENSIVE BOW = .15
ADVANCE BOW = .21
FORWARD BOW = .27
NEUTRAL BOW = .33
GUARDED BOW = .39
DEFENSIVE BOW = .45

OFFENSIVE CROSSBOW = .12
ADVANCE CROSSBOW = .17
FORWARD CROSSBOW = .22
NEUTRAL CROSSBOW = .27
GUARDED CROSSBOW = .32
DEFENSIVE CROSSBOW = .37

Stance Bonuses for Ranged Parry Melee DS:
OFF: 0
ADV: 10
FOR: 20
NEU: 30
GUA: 40
DEF: 50

See here for Dodge DS armor hindrance and stance modifiers: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Evade

*Many thanks go to Mark/Riltus for correcting the Ranged Parry Melee DS formula on 3/8/13*


8. Modifying Skills, Spells, and Effects

Modifying Skills and Spells:
Surge of Strength (a combat maneuver): Helps reduce firing time by temporarily increasing STR Bonus
Shadow Mastery (a combat maneuver): Reduces stalking and hiding time and adds bonuses to hiding. SM will also allow a ranger using 608 to retain some of the AS bonus when sneaking.
Multi-Fire (a combat maneuver): Allows an archer to fire two or more unaimed arrows simultaneously, at one or multiple targets. However, I suggest you avoid this maneuver except for shits and giggles, since you can fire aimed single arrows faster.
Weapon Specification (a combat maneuver): By wspecing an arrow, an archer can gain up to +10 AS.
Phoen's Strength (606): Reduces firing time by increasing STR Bonus by +10
Wizard's Strength (509): Reduces firing time by increasing STR Bonus by +15
Camouflage (608): Instant hide and +30 AS for one attack. With sufficient hiding skill, an archer can stay hidden with a constant +30 AS bonus.
Self Control (613): Adds bonuses to aiming
Sneaking (617): Adds bonuses to hiding (increased with Blessings Lore)
Presence (402): Adds a bonus to aiming
Disarm Enhancement (404): Adds a bonus to aiming
Target posture (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.) - Accuracy bonuses for more immobile postures, such as being prone.
Encumbrance - Decreases accuracy.
Level - Decreases(/increases?) accuracy.

Animal Companions (630): Animal companions (available to advanced rangers) have a Guard command that generally lets them guard the ranger for up to -25 AS/+25 DS. With ranged (and thrown) weapons, there is no AS penalty.

Ranged AS-Enhancing Spells:
Kai's Song - +10 AS boost, increasing with bard ranks
Dauntless - +10 AS boost, with other benefits
Bravery - +15 AS boost, with other benefits
Heroism - +25 AS boost, with other benefits, increasing with Blessings lore
Elemental Targetting - +25 AS, increasing with major elemental ranks
Spirit Strike - +75 AS for one shot (blue crystals contain this spell)
Zealot - +30 AS / -30 DS, modified with Religion lore
Benediction - +5 AS, increasing with cleric ranks
Symbol of the Proselyte - +5 AS, depending on cleric stats, training, and deity vs. target resolution
Intensity - +20 AS, increasing with empath ranks and level
Assume Aspect (through stat modifications) - Modifies stats depending on lore and companion type. Try Wolf (DEX) and Lion (STR), among others.
Ensorcell (through permanent item modification) - +5 (T1) to +25 (T5) AS on single shots if flare does not restore mana/health/etc.

N.B. Depending on how these spells are cast, ranks in MIU or AS may affect the bonus.

Enhancive Items:
With the release of enhancive items through the treasure system, it's become relatively easy to boost skills and stats. One is limited to a total +50 bonus to a skill and +40 bonus to a stat (+20 stat bonus). Though there are a number of ways enhancives can be useful, an archer with a low Strength bonus or, in particular, a Strength bonus only a point or three off from the next RT reduction (every +10 STR bonus) might find wearable Strength enhancives particularly useful. Dexterity bonus also adds directly to AS and increases phantom crit weighting (bonus/4).

Some of the most common enhancives for ranged weaponry are the "leather wrist guards" released at the Winterfest Caravan of 2008. They're +4 Ranged Weapons Bonus and one can wear two of them on the wrists. They cost about 2400 Bounty Points to recharge at the Adventurer's Guild.

Fusion is also an ideal way to increase one's ranged abilities.

9. Fletching
An archer has the capability to make his or her own arrows with a natural +5 bonus after mastering the artisan skill of fletching. The advantage of such arrows is that one can use faewood (natural 4x) to make 5x blessed arrows. With a 5x bow, an archer is at the maximum +50 AS. Many archers find it simpler to avoid undead creatures and use a 6x bow with ebladed (+20 flaring) ordinary arrows for a flaring +50 weapon, however. For comprehensive information on this ability, see:

Fletching on Krakiipedia: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Fletching
Nephrenia's Guide to Fletching: http://www.dm.net/~aldamus/Mentors/GemStone/Guides/fletching.htm
Keelty's Super Fletch Script and others: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=42806

10. Sample Builds
These sample builds only include the relevant archery skills. Armor choice, spells, and other skills are up to the individual.

Core skills: Ranged Weapons Skill, Perception, Ambush, Dodging, Stalking and Hiding (if sniping)

Sample Sniping Rogue Build:

2x Ranged
2x-3x Perception
2x Ambush
1x-2x CM (incl. Surge of Strength)
2x-3x Dodge
3x Hiding

Sample Hasted Wizard Build:

1x Ranged
2x Perception
DS is provided by spells and Haste (506) allows deep RT reductions.


Sample Open Archer Ranger:

2x Ranged
2x Perception
1x Dodge
1x-2x Ambush

11. Useful Links

Paul's “Archery Gear” (A list of legendary ranged weapons): http://www.gsplayers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47302


12. Thanks

Thanks go to Droit, Asrial, Mark/Riltus, Kitsun, and WaywardGS for suggestions and corrections, and to Amused1 for the laborious task of posting the guide on Krakiipedia.

13. Appendix

Please see the following post.

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 03:39 PM
Appendix:

Puncture Critical Table:

HEAD:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Thrust catches chin. Leaves an impression but no cut.
1 5 Glancing strike to the head!
2 8 Nice shot to the head gouges the critter's cheek!
3 10 Beautiful head shot! That ear will be missed!
4 15 Strike to temple! Saved by thick skull!
5 20 Beautiful shot pierces skull! Amazing the critter wasn't killed outright!
6 25 Amazing shot through the critter's nose enters the brain!
7 30 Strike though both ears, foe is quite dead!
8 35 Strike pierces temple and kills foe instantly!
9 40 Awesome shot skewers skull! The critter blinks once and falls quite dead!

NECK:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Talk about a close shave! Let's try closer next time.
1 3 Minor strike to neck.
2 5 Well placed shot to the neck.
3 7 Strike just below the jaw, nice shot to the neck!
4 10 Pierced through the neck, a fine shot!
5 15 Neck skewered, sliding past the throat and spine! That looks painful.
6 15 Fine shot pierces jugular vein! The brain wonders where all its oxygen went, briefly.
7 20 Strike clean through neck, what a shot! Good form!
8 25 Strike punctures throat and ruins vocal cords!
9 30 Incredible shot clean through the throat severs the spine!

CHEST:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Blow slides along ribs. Probably tickles.
1 5 Minor puncture to the chest.
2 10 Strike to the chest breaks a rib!
3 15 Loud *crack* as the critter's sternum breaks!
4 20 Well placed strike shatters a rib!
5 25 Damaging strike to chest, several ribs shattered!
6 30 Strong strike, punctures lung!
7 35 Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!
8 40 Beautiful shot pierces both lungs, the critter makes a wheezing noise, and drops dead!
9 50 Incredible strike pierces heart and runs the critter clean through!


ABDOMEN:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Poked in the tummy. Hehehe.
1 5 Minor puncture to abdomen.
2 10 Nice puncture to the abdomen, just missed vital organs!
3 15 Strike pierces gall bladder! That's gotta hurt!
4 20 Strike to abdomen punctures stomach!
5 25 Vicious strike punctures intestines!
6 25 Bladder impaled, what a mess!
7 30 Deft strike to abdomen penetrates several useful organs!
8 40 Strike to abdomen skewers the critter quite nicely!
9 50 Perfect strike to the abdomen. The critter howls in pain and drops quite dead!

BACK:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Thrust slides along the back. Cuts a nagging itch.
1 5 Minor puncture to the back.
2 10 Nice puncture to the back, just grazed the spine!
3 15 Strike connects with shoulder blade!
4 20 Nailed in the lower back!
5 25 Well placed strike to back shatters vertebrae!
6 30 Deft strike to the back cracks vertebrae!
7 35 Awesome shot shatters spine and punctures lung!
8 40 Shot to back shatters bone and vertebrae!
9 50 Incredible shot impales a kidney. Too painful to even scream.


RIGHT EYE:
Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Attack bumps an eyebrow. Oh! So close!
1 1 Minor strike under the right eye, that was close!
2 5 Well aimed shot almost removes an eye!
3 10 Slash across right eye! Hope the left is working.
4 17 Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!
5 20 Shot knocks the critter's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
6 25 Incredible shot to the eye penetrates deep into skull!
7 30 Shot destroys eye and the brain behind it!
8 35 Strike through eye, the critter is lobotomized!
9 40 Strike to the eye penetrates skull, ocular fluid sprays widely!


LEFT EYE:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Attack bumps an eyebrow. Oh! So close!
1 1 Minor strike under the left eye, that was close!
2 5 Well aimed shot almost removes an eye!
3 10 Surgical strike removes the critter's left eye!
4 17 Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!
5 20 Shot knocks the critter's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
6 25 Incredible shot to the eye penetrates deep into skull!
7 30 Shot destroys eye and the brain behind it!
8 35 Strike through eye, the critter is lobotomized!
9 40 Strike to the eye penetrates skull, ocular fluid sprays widely!

RIGHT LEG:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Thrust glances off the critter's knee without a lot of effect.
1 5 Minor puncture to the right leg.
2 9 Strike pierces thigh!
3 13 Well aimed shot, punctures calf!
4 17 Strike pierces calf!
5 20 Well placed shot pierces knee, that hurt!
6 23 Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
7 27 Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg!
8 30 Strike punctures thigh and shatters femur!
9 35 Shot shatters hip and severs right leg!

LEFT LEG:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Thrust glances off the critter's knee without a lot of effect.
1 5 Minor puncture to the left leg.
2 9 Strike pierces thigh!
3 13 Well aimed shot, punctures calf!
4 17 Strike pierces calf!
5 20 Well placed shot pierces knee, that hurt!
6 23 Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
7 27 Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg!
8 30 Strike punctures thigh and shatters femur!
9 35 Shot shatters hip and severs left leg!

RIGHT ARM:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Tap to the arm pricks some interest but not much else.
1 3 Minor puncture to the right arm.
2 5 Strike pierces upper arm!
3 7 Well aimed shot, punctures upper arm!
4 10 Strike pierces forearm!
5 14 Elbow punctured, oh what pain!
6 17 Well aimed strike shatters bone in right arm!
7 22 Strike to right arm cleanly severs it at the shoulder!
8 25 Strike to right arm shatters elbow and severs forearm!
9 25 Shot shatters shoulder and severs right arm!

LEFT ARM:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Tap to the arm pricks some interest but not much else.
1 3 Minor puncture to the left arm.
2 5 Strike pierces upper arm!
3 7 Well aimed shot, punctures upper arm!
4 10 Strike pierces forearm!
5 14 Elbow punctured, oh what pain!
6 17 Well aimed strike shatters bone in left arm!
7 22 Strike to the left arm cleanly severs it at the shoulder!
8 25 Strike to the left arm shatters elbow and severs forearm!
9 25 Shot shatters shoulder and severs left arm!


RIGHT HAND:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Strikes a fingernail. Bet it'll lose it now.
1 1 Strike to right hand breaks a fingernail!
2 3 Strike through the palm!
3 5 Shot to the hand slices a finger to the bone!
4 7 Shot pierces a wrist!
5 9 Slash across back of hand, tendons sliced!
6 12 Impressive shot shatters wrist!
7 15 Strike to wrist severs right hand!
8 18 Strike to wrist severs right hand!
9 20 Strike to wrist severs right hand quite neatly!

LEFT HAND:

Rank | Damage | Messaging
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Damage Message
0 0 Strikes a fingernail. Bet it'll lose it now.
1 1 Strike to left hand breaks a fingernail!
2 3 Strike through palm!
3 5 Shot to the hand slices a finger to the bone!
4 7 Shot pierces a wrist!
5 9 Slash across back of hand, tendons sliced!
6 12 Impressive shot shatters wrist!
7 15 Strike to wrist severs left hand!
8 18 Strike to wrist severs left hand!
9 20 Strike to wrist severs left hand quite neatly!

Methais
02-08-2010, 03:41 PM
TLDR VERSION:

Put ARROWWWWWWWWWWW on string.

Pull back string.

Release.

AnticorRifling
02-08-2010, 03:44 PM
TLDR VERSION:

Put bow on string.

Pull back string.

Release.

You put the string on the bow. You should read this guide.

Methais
02-08-2010, 03:47 PM
You put the string on the bow. You should read this guide.

fharfghoaruigfaorfgho

PUT ARROW ON STRING GOD DAMMIT!!!ee&*re(*^ER978

kookiegod
02-08-2010, 03:50 PM
very nice job!

Asrial
02-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Hahahahaha Anticor :D

Nuadjha, I'd use my evade DS formula (the website is wrong) OR (and I think this is better) I'd remove evade DS information completely.

Going along with that thought.. I'd probably remove AS/DS completely and just say "to increase your AS: train as much as you can in ambush and perception but be aware that it's going to take a bit to notice the benefit" and "to increase your DS: train as much as you can in perception but be aware that the DS gain drops sharply when in the 2x-3x range." Your later example builds reinforce these statements.

It really just depends on what you're going for with the guide. If someone wants more of the mechanics, they can investigate and ask further. I think for a basic guide it's going too in depth.

Other than that, it looks really good :)

Maybe add a companion fletching guide?

Oh, and I don't think the crit tables help the guide even if you're wanting an advanced guide.

waywardgs
02-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Nice, up on krakii yet?

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the comments and suggestions! Keep 'em coming. I'll update it again tonight or tomorrow.

droit
02-08-2010, 04:12 PM
Oh, and I don't think the crit tables help the guide even if you're wanting an advanced guide.

I think the crit table would make a good appendix, but only if you were to label lethal crit thresholds, which crits cause knockdowns, etc. What you could do in the guide, however, is to add a small table that lists the minimum fatal crit thresholds for each body part:

Puncture:
Eye: 4
Eye: 4
Head: 6
Neck: 6
Chest: 8
Back: 8
Abs: 8

Showal
02-08-2010, 04:12 PM
BF,

great job with this. I only got to read some excerpts, but I definitely need to read this whole thing. Thanks for putting it out.

Smythe
02-08-2010, 05:41 PM
Yer good. Post it.

- Smythe

waywardgs
02-08-2010, 05:48 PM
Could put in the 402/404 benefits, maybe a bit about how sighting works.

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 05:50 PM
Could put in the 402/404 benefits, maybe a bit about how sighting works.

Oh, good call. Is anything known specifically about them or do they just help to some unknown extent?

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 05:51 PM
Also, thanks for the advice on the dodge formula and the puncture tables. I'll update the first and move the second to the bottom of the post as an appendix. I want to leave them in somewhere accessible just for ease of reference.

waywardgs
02-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Oh, good call. Is anything known specifically about them or do they just help to some unknown extent?

Unfortunately I haven't seen any specifics on how either works, and I've looked. Also, where we have a very good idea of the mechanics of weighting or padding, sighting as far as I know hasn't been deconstructed in the slightest. Anyone else want to weigh in on the sighting point system translation of aiming bonuses?

Asrial
02-08-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't think we'll ever know sighting. I can't think of any method to test it beyond just keep firing at a single area thousands of times.

waywardgs
02-08-2010, 06:07 PM
I don't think we'll ever know sighting. I can't think of any method to test it beyond just keep firing at a single area thousands of times.

Yeah, it's a difficult thing to test. There should be a target practice area, like a dart board or something. I'd use it.

Asrial
02-08-2010, 06:15 PM
Hell yeah. Same here.

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 07:23 PM
Updated! Added info about aiming, sighting, spell effects, and fatal crit thresholds. Moved puncture crit table to second post/appendix. Corrected Dodge/Evade DS formula.

Loved the suggestions. Any more?

Ardwen
02-08-2010, 07:26 PM
Nice work! No interest in archery and was still a good read.

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 07:38 PM
Thanks, guys. Who do I send it to for Krakiipedia? Naos?

Riltus
02-08-2010, 08:45 PM
Nice job, man!

The armor group (AG) crit divisors for AG1 and AG2 are listed incorrectly.

AG1 (normal clothing, robes): 5
AG2 (leather): 6

Also, if you want to add this -

Standard bow/crossbow weapon weights:

Bows (short, composite, long): 3 pounds
Light crossbow: 8 pounds
Heavy crossbow: 12 pounds

Mark

Lord Orbstar
02-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Good job, Briar. Nothing to add but +1 rep

Gan
02-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Nice guide.

Definately put it up on Krakii.

The other suggestions mentioned here are good too.

AMUSED1
02-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Thanks, guys. Who do I send it to for Krakiipedia? Naos?

I'll try and put it up there. But it may take a bit with doing all the tables by hand. Doing those in wiki format can be annoying and time consuming.

AMUSED1
02-08-2010, 10:16 PM
So far, tonight's work on it: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Bow_(guide)

Celephais
02-08-2010, 11:16 PM
So far, tonight's work on it: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Bow_(guide)
Fixed (missing parentheses)

BriarFox
02-08-2010, 11:26 PM
That's looking awesome, Amused. Thanks a ton.

And thanks for the kind words here and in rep. Appreciate them!

I'll incorporate the last few suggestions in the next update in a few. If you've got more, toss 'em.

Asrial
02-09-2010, 12:39 AM
If you want to get REALLY advanced you could post Droit's warrior sheath trick for arrows.

The attached files are NOT zip files (did it so I could upload them here). You MUST rename them to .mht files (they're that "save everything into one file" MSIE thing).

BriarFox
02-09-2010, 12:39 AM
Nice job, man!

The armor group (AG) crit divisors for AG1 and AG2 are listed incorrectly.

AG1 (normal clothing, robes): 5
AG2 (leather): 6

Also, if you want to add this -

Standard bow/crossbow weapon weights:

Bows (short, composite, long): 3 pounds
Light crossbow: 8 pounds
Heavy crossbow: 12 pounds

Mark

Changes made. Thanks, Mark. Amused, since you're being kind enough to post it on KP, the only things that have been updated in the original post are that I added the weights to the Bows vs. Crossbows section and updated the crit divisor table.

All the suggestions people have made so far are accounted for, I think, and it's much better for the vetting and help. Thanks, guys.

BriarFox
02-09-2010, 12:44 AM
If you want to get REALLY advanced you could post Droit's warrior sheath trick for arrows.

The attached files are NOT zip files (did it so I could upload them here). You MUST rename them to .mht files (they're that "save everything into one file" MSIE thing).

I summarized Droit's trick and added it as "Another note on weights" under the Bows vs. Crossbows section, with credit to Droit. Thanks, Asrial.

I've also made a number of other minor changes, such as including enhancive items in section 8.

BriarFox
02-09-2010, 02:30 AM
12. Thanks

Thanks go to Droit, Asrial, Mark/Riltus, and WaywardGS for suggestions and corrections, and to Amused1 for the laborious task of posting the guide on Krakiipedia.

One last important update.

AKOE!
02-09-2010, 09:24 AM
I like! Good job!

BriarFox
02-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Amused1,

I was browsing around Krakiipedia and found the tables I'm using (more or less) on other pages. Perhaps you can just steal their source code and make things easy on yourself?

DF Table: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ranged_Weapons
Crit divisors: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Critical_divisor

AMUSED1
02-10-2010, 02:09 AM
Haha, yeah. I went and used a good bit of the source code from other pages. I ended up putting the crit divisor table from your guide in by hand. So a lot more updated tonight. Only thing major left to do is the Appendix. And after that just going through and linking articles throughout. So about 85% done I'd say.

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 09:52 AM
Haha, yeah. I went and used a good bit of the source code from other pages. I ended up putting the crit divisor table from your guide in by hand. So a lot more updated tonight. Only thing major left to do is the Appendix. And after that just going through and linking articles throughout. So about 85% done I'd say.

Dude, you rock.

Geshron
02-10-2010, 10:15 AM
What do you guys do to keep the absurd amount of arrows organized/under control? Anyone, please.

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 10:15 AM
Oh, I did add a couple of paragraphs to the AS/DS and Skills/Spells sections, if you want to include those, too. I owe you a beer or something!

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 10:17 AM
What do you guys do to keep the absurd amount of arrows organized/under control? Anyone, please.

What do you mean? Just dealing with all the arrows on the ground?

If so, use this:

#gather
put gather arrow
put put arrow in arrow in my quiver

Step 1: >.gather
Step 2: Profit

If I'm also using blessed arrows or such, then I do:

#gatherb
put gather faewood arrow
put put f arrow in f arrow in my quiver

Step 1: >.gather
Step 2: >.gatherb
Step 3: Profit

droit
02-10-2010, 12:31 PM
What do you guys do to keep the absurd amount of arrows organized/under control? Anyone, please.

Like Nuadjha said, you just make sure that arrows with different functions have different descriptors, then make sets of macros for each type. If you're using ebladed store-bought arrows, make firing/gather scripts for "wood arrow"; blessed fletched arrows make firing/gather scripts that specifies "faewood arrow," etc.

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Hm. I'm thinking about a supplemental advanced archery guide. It'd probably focus on maximizing archery skills and hunting abilities for individual builds. What else would people like to see in it?

droit
02-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Hmm. Perhaps a discussion of various macro/script setups? I know I use a system that I think is incredibly efficient, but no one else uses (from what I've seen). I wouldn't mind writing up an explanation of it for other archers.

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Hmm. Perhaps a discussion of various macro/script setups? I know I use a system that I think is incredibly efficient, but no one else uses (from what I've seen). I wouldn't mind writing up an explanation of it for other archers.

Yeah, we could definitely do that. I put out one example of my series of scripts in the basic guide, but I'd like to see other people's, too.

BriarFox
02-10-2010, 06:44 PM
Oh, and added Multi-Fire (LOL) to Section 8.

BriarFox
02-19-2010, 06:41 PM
If you want a .pdf version, btw, just shoot me a note.

BriarFox
02-20-2010, 07:16 PM
Since someone asked, I've updated the guide to include more comments on hiding.

Things that affect hiding: Hiding skill bonus, profession bonus, stat bonuses (DIS?), Sneaking, Unpresence, Camouflage, Spirit Fog, and Darkness.

That's all I can think of, unless someone else wants to chime in.

Elgrim
02-20-2010, 08:28 PM
CMAN Shadow Mastery

BriarFox
02-20-2010, 08:45 PM
CMAN Shadow Mastery

Ah, true. I had that at the bottom, but it should go here, too.

Jene
03-15-2010, 03:16 PM
BriarFox, you think we can get some posts showing high level Archers in action? From being hidden and sniping, to open aim to the eye.
It seems that in my testing to decide which route to take, the THW just seem the more obvious choice in my early ranks. Come May, with the fixskills, I should be 25 by then, to see the full potential of 10x bow/arrows, along with my +25 (425) and +15 (509) and +35 (col) and haste. So, I'm really tempted to do it.

I've also contemplated losing the +35 (col) to join Sunfist, since I hear that the swarm there is nice. So, with the haste and opening aiming to the eye, it just seems like more of an adventure/challenge to go this route at some point. I'm starting to get bored.

I actually used Ranged for quite a bit leveling, and enjoyed it, until I started uphunting a bit, and that's when I saw the arrows kept missing and not hitting as hard, and decided to go the THW route until 25 and annual fixskills to either pure or ranged.

BriarFox
03-15-2010, 05:34 PM
I'll post some clips of Nuadjha hunting later, sure. For sniping, though, someone else will have to provide them.

Ryvicke
03-15-2010, 05:49 PM
Maybe you could add all of the external factors that affect AIMing success? I know in the past I've heard injuries, encumbrance, 613...

Also was there ever any research done on where the sighted bows add their bonus? (i.e. Heavy=10 points of sighting=10 ranks of perception)? Or does it just add to a general successful strike formula?

droit
03-15-2010, 08:19 PM
Unfortunately, sighting is one of those unquantified systems. We have no idea what "+10 points of sighting" really means.

Ryvicke
03-15-2010, 08:28 PM
I have a temp exceptional and a perm decent--roughly a difference of 8-9 points of sighting... how many shots would I have to take to figure something out? Statisticians?

BriarFox
03-15-2010, 09:51 PM
Maybe you could add all of the external factors that affect AIMing success? I know in the past I've heard injuries, encumbrance, 613...

Also was there ever any research done on where the sighted bows add their bonus? (i.e. Heavy=10 points of sighting=10 ranks of perception)? Or does it just add to a general successful strike formula?

To my knowledge, aiming is affected by level, injuries, encumbrance, and perhaps profession.

Droit's right about sighting, too, but perhaps 500 shots or so would give some idea. You'd have to make sure all factors stayed the same, or as close as possible.

Fallen
03-15-2010, 10:45 PM
Have Virilneus animate something big, and a wizard for haste. Beat on the animate and he can heal it as needed. Quick and easy.

Ryvicke
03-16-2010, 12:12 AM
To my knowledge, aiming is affected by level, injuries, encumbrance, and perhaps profession.

Droit's right about sighting, too, but perhaps 500 shots or so would give some idea. You'd have to make sure all factors stayed the same, or as close as possible.

So uphunting has a natural penalty to aim even if you're overtrained in the requisite skills? It would explain a lot...

BriarFox
03-16-2010, 02:30 AM
So uphunting has a natural penalty to aim even if you're overtrained in the requisite skills? It would explain a lot...


Yep.

BriarFox
03-17-2010, 12:43 AM
... meh. I can't do it. I signed in and then signed back out. I cannot summon the will to give enough of a crap to hunt, even to post some clips. Someone else post them.

violent femme
03-28-2010, 09:44 PM
excellent post! but im pretty sure you cant heal animates...

Makkah
04-05-2010, 04:11 PM
excellent post! but im pretty sure you cant heal animates...

He has a wand of some such that allows him to heal his animates. (I think)

Here's a question... how important is training in ambush for a ranged/sniping warrior?

BriarFox
04-05-2010, 04:13 PM
He has a wand of some such that allows him to heal his animates. (I think)

Here's a question... how important is training in ambush for a ranged/sniping warrior?

Your aiming success from hiding is dependant on your Ambush and Perception training. So, a lot.

Makkah
04-05-2010, 04:16 PM
So 2x perception and 1x ambush wouldn't be adequate, likely?

BriarFox
04-05-2010, 04:18 PM
So 2x perception and 1x ambush wouldn't be adequate, likely?

It'd probably be all right, actually, at least in the upper levels. As a warrior, though, you don't have any abilities to add to your aiming, so you might find you miss a lot with that training, especially below level 50ish. Just a guess, though - I've never played a ranged warrior.

AestheticLife
04-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Every warrior ever should have ambush anyway, dood!

You should know that, though. We be jumpin' fools and all, ya hurr me?


EDIT: Wait, seriously. Why aren't you training beyond 1x ambush? Unless you're hauling around a claidh, it kind of makes sense to train it.

Makkah
04-05-2010, 04:21 PM
This isn't for an existing character. Just mulling around future chars. Gonna be ranged/polearm warrior mutant.

AestheticLife
04-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Aimed shots from a Naginata still enjoy as much ambush as you can pile on, last I knew. Cap it if you have the points, otherwise 2x-2 or whatever the kids are doing these days.

Makkah
04-05-2010, 04:25 PM
With said training, free points are pretty lean at this point.

droit
04-05-2010, 04:27 PM
From what I've read, most warriors don't train very much ambush at all. 2x CM plus a nominal amount of ambush is enough to aim most melee weapons from the open.

AestheticLife
04-05-2010, 04:32 PM
Hmm. Ignore every word I say, then! Not sure if that's due to some change since I've been gone, or not, but I always had my warrior just about capped in ambush. Guess I never thought to drop it lower though, as I didn't want to lose the accuracy I had. For all I know, I could've been aiming well enough without it (though I was swinging a greatsword most of the time).

Gibreficul
07-30-2010, 09:32 PM
I'm just replying because I want this to pop up when I click ARCHERY. It should probably be a sticky thread.

BulletSponge
11-21-2010, 11:01 PM
Bump for epic amount of Archery Goodness.

kookiegod
12-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Bump cause search is borked

BulletSponge
01-23-2011, 02:54 PM
The normal bump to keep it current since it cant have sticky status for some reaosn.

Stry
02-13-2011, 07:17 AM
Bump for uberness + a question:

Does training in CMAN really have no effect whatsoever on your AS and DS using ranged weapons??

I'm just now breaking out a lower level archer and I'm astounded to find that CMANs really aren't a staple for an archer ranger...

I suppose it makes sense, but still surprised. (yes, I'm a noober at archery.)

BriarFox
02-13-2011, 08:29 AM
Bump for uberness + a question:

Does training in CMAN really have no effect whatsoever on your AS and DS using ranged weapons??

I'm just now breaking out a lower level archer and I'm astounded to find that CMANs really aren't a staple for an archer ranger...

I suppose it makes sense, but still surprised. (yes, I'm a noober at archery.)

None. The only thing most CMs can do for you is protect you from attacks or give you another disabling option. SM is useful for hiding and reducing hiding/sneaking RT, and multifire is a joke. You do not actually need to train in them at all, though.

Kitsun
02-13-2011, 10:01 AM
If you play a rogue, you can WSPEC to arrows and gain up to +10AS from that CMAN. BriarFox probably left it out since he's a ranger.

Stry
02-13-2011, 01:34 PM
Good information, thank you both.

BriarFox
02-13-2011, 01:59 PM
If you play a rogue, you can WSPEC to arrows and gain up to +10AS from that CMAN. BriarFox probably left it out since he's a ranger.

I added that to the guide. Thanks, Kitsun.

BulletSponge
03-18-2011, 10:33 PM
Obligatory bump because its some how stickyproof!!!!!

AnticorRifling
03-20-2011, 07:40 PM
Thread has be stuckificated.

Silky Fyne
05-24-2011, 03:07 PM
The WSPEC that rogues can use to get +10 to AS is "puncture" correct.. and when you say that an arrow can be WSPEC'd do you have to do it everytime you shoot a single arrow, or by setting your WSPEC to puncture it automatically sets every arrow you shoot to puncture the target?

Riltus
05-24-2011, 05:28 PM
The WSPEC that rogues can use to get +10 to AS is "puncture" correct.. and when you say that an arrow can be WSPEC'd do you have to do it everytime you shoot a single arrow, or by setting your WSPEC to puncture it automatically sets every arrow you shoot to puncture the target?

You may be confusing WSPEC with the CMAN, Precision. Precision is used to set a weapon's damage type, such as puncture, slash or crush. However, you can't use precision with ranged attacks.

I'm not sure about weapon specing to arrows and whether or not that will increase your AS up to +10 when they are used as ammunition in bows. Arrows and bolts are also melee weapons that use the edged weapon skill when attacking with them. If you choose to specialize in arrows (as a weapon) it may be that the AS increase only applies when they are used in melee, but I'm not sure.

Mark

waywardgs
05-24-2011, 06:00 PM
You may be confusing WSPEC with the CMAN, Precision. Precision is used to set a weapon's damage type, such as puncture, slash or crush. However, you can't use precision with ranged attacks.

I'm not sure about weapon specing to arrows and whether or not that will increase your AS up to +10 when they are used as ammunition in bows. Arrows and bolts are also melee weapons that use the edged weapon skill when attacking with them. If you choose to specialize in arrows (as a weapon) it may be that the AS increase only applies when they are used in melee, but I'm not sure.

Mark

No, if you spec to arrows, the bonus counts with ranged attacks.

Hulkein
05-25-2011, 11:08 AM
Great guide Briar. If I were to play again it would be an archer and this would come in handy.

BriarFox
05-25-2011, 11:14 AM
Glad you guys are still finding this thing useful. And though I don't have any personal experience wspecing an arrow, I've heard it works fine to increase ranged AS. As Riltus/Mark said, the poster above is thinking about cman precision, which you don't need for arrows.

Blackmagic
05-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Anyone remember how to put on those bowstrings from the Artisan Faire years ago...found a few in my locker

Gizmo
05-31-2011, 05:29 PM
Anyone remember how to put on those bowstrings from the Artisan Faire years ago...found a few in my locker

I want to say WRAP, TWIST or TURN.

But hell, it could be as simple as put string on my bow...Or STRING Bow

Me
06-07-2011, 07:50 AM
The guide is very useful, well done.

Zanti

BriarFox
06-08-2011, 03:34 PM
Simplified version of the dodge DS formula posted, thanks to Asrial.

badnade
07-04-2011, 04:58 PM
Bump

Drakefang
07-04-2011, 08:10 PM
Yeah, I used this guide to work out the current training path for Galenok. High level bards with bows are stupendous. Until a good bit post cap, you have to sacrifice in various areas, but nothing crippling for certain. Post cap when you can start adding back in the CM and cmans for defensive purposes that you really start to go nuts.

Tonis + longbow +GoS = speed death

It's truly amazing the raw killing power that is created. I thought a lance was cool, and it is for raw damage, but for hunting speed and sheer crit-killing a bow is retarded. I feel like this rivals the power of a pure bard. It's faster when targeting solo critters, usually, but does lack some of the larger group killing aspects.

Drayal
07-05-2011, 06:27 AM
Yeah, I used this guide to work out the current training path for Galenok. High level bards with bows are stupendous. Until a good bit post cap, you have to sacrifice in various areas, but nothing crippling for certain. Post cap when you can start adding back in the CM and cmans for defensive purposes that you really start to go nuts.

Tonis + longbow +GoS = speed death

It's truly amazing the raw killing power that is created. I thought a lance was cool, and it is for raw damage, but for hunting speed and sheer crit-killing a bow is retarded. I feel like this rivals the power of a pure bard. It's faster when targeting solo critters, usually, but does lack some of the larger group killing aspects.
WELCOME TO 2003!!!

Drakefang
07-05-2011, 04:52 PM
WELCOME TO 2003!!!

Thanks, glad to be here.

Drunken Durfin
07-13-2011, 11:27 PM
fuck archery.

BriarFox
08-11-2011, 12:45 AM
Dealing with Blessed or E-Bladed Arrows:
You might find that you end up with a pile of single, uncharged arrows and a bundle of charged ones, and they can't be bundled back together, or perhaps you're running out of charges faster than you expect. That's because when you bless or e-blade a bundle of arrows, the *bundle* keeps the total number of charges. When you get an arrow, the arrow takes *two* charges with it. One gets used when you fire, the other remains so that you can put that arrow back in the bundle without any trouble, because you can't bundle two different arrows together (even if they only cost a silver more or less). Just make sure that you only fire arrows taken fresh from the bundle, and that you gather everything up and bundle them back together before you move on, and you'll be fine. You can always LOOK at the arrow to see if it's glowing with a holy light (blessed) or has a scintillating aura (e-bladed), too. Watch out for other people's arrows on the ground if another archer is hunting near you; you won't be able to bundle that other "wooden arrow" with yours if it has an ice eblade while yours have a fire eblade. You can tell by the color of the aura when you look at it.

Tip: You can add up to 999 charges to a bundle, and if you e-blade a couple of smaller bundles, you can bundle them together to get a nicely charged one that'll last you awhile.

I added a section on blessed and ebladed ammo, in light of a discussion that popped up a couple of days ago.

Ayamei
08-11-2011, 01:21 AM
Nice addition.

bremerial
08-31-2011, 09:23 AM
As I understand it, warriors can't bond to ranged weapons, even if using as a slogging staff. Does anyone know whether this is still the case? (not an issue I would have thought about before.) As much as I love the e-bow, bonding to a weapon is an important element to me.

Drayal
08-31-2011, 10:43 AM
Sure you can bond with the thw side of one. Just not arrows, unless you swung one all the time.

bremerial
08-31-2011, 04:06 PM
Sure you can bond with the thw side of one. Just not arrows, unless you swung one all the time.

Excellent - thanks

Middian
08-31-2011, 09:18 PM
Should coup de grace be added to #8 modIfying skills and spells?

BriarFox
08-31-2011, 09:25 PM
Should coup de grace be added to #8 modIfying skills and spells?

No, it's not a skill that offers anything particular to ranged.

LeroyJenks
09-02-2011, 12:33 AM
I don't know if it adds a potential 40AS I would gladly trade MFIRE from the ranger list for it.

edit: Then again there isn't much I wouldnt trade multi fire for.

Drayal
10-16-2011, 09:42 AM
Couple of questions I haven't really checked for answers in the last 11 pages.

i) Does the size of the bow (short / composite / long) have any effect on the success of the shot, say aiming at the eye for instance?
ii) Does the higher endroll have any impact on the aiming of the shot. Eg; firing at a stunned and dropped critter?
I have a feeling neither do.

Ayamei
10-16-2011, 10:00 AM
I know the size of the bow has nothing to do with AIMing it. Maybe a stunned critter is easier to hit your mark with, but the endroll has nothing do with your aim.

Drayal
10-16-2011, 10:13 AM
I thought so. Thanks.

waywardgs
10-16-2011, 10:42 AM
It's not the size of the bow, it's how you use it.

Gibreficul
10-16-2011, 02:01 PM
It's not the size of the bow, it's how you use it.

Someone's carrying around a short bow.

Drayal
10-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Probably no ammo either.

waywardgs
10-16-2011, 09:59 PM
Lol

Drayal
10-17-2011, 11:54 AM
Boom.

Drayal
10-27-2011, 10:03 AM
if I have 2 bundles of arrows in the same quiver:
a bundle of: faewood arrow
a bundle of: anturn faewood arrow tipped with a drakar tri-bladed arrowhead

How do I pick from from either bundle?
What syntax would I use?

thefarmer
10-27-2011, 10:08 AM
Other bundle

Drayal
10-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Gotcha.
Shame it doesn't work on arrows that are different all mixed up in the same container.

Gibreficul
10-27-2011, 05:46 PM
if I have 2 bundles of arrows in the same quiver:
a bundle of: faewood arrow
a bundle of: anturn faewood arrow tipped with a drakar tri-bladed arrowhead

How do I pick from from either bundle?
What syntax would I use?

get 1 my fae arrow
get 1 my ant arrow

Or if you're a scripter...

bundle1 = GameObj.inv.find{|quiv| quiv.noun == 'quiver'}.contents.find{|bundle| bundle.name =~ /anturn faewood arrows/}
bundle2 = GameObj.inv.find{|quiv| quiv.noun == 'quiver'}.contents.find{|bundle| bundle.name =~ /^faewood arrows/}

fput "get 1 ##{bundle1.id}"
fput "get 1 ##{bundle2.id}"


Yay arrows. :club:

Drayal
10-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Get 1 my ant arrow does not work or I wouldn't have posted.

BriarFox
11-29-2011, 01:01 AM
Added some lesser-known info:

8. Modifying Skills and Spells

Target posture (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.) - Bonuses for more immobile postures, such as being prone.
Encumbrance - Decreases accuracy.
Level - Decreases(/increases?) accuracy.

droit
11-29-2011, 01:25 AM
Encumbrance, huh? Where'd you get that?

Drayal
11-29-2011, 08:00 AM
Yeah, not saying I don't believe you but I'd really like to see the source of info, anyway. Hopefully a NIR?

BriarFox
11-29-2011, 08:23 AM
Just based on my experience. If I get bored, I'll go see if I notice a difference between 100 shots unencumbered and 100 shots encumbered.

Middian
12-23-2011, 10:59 AM
Since Briar's post, I have been playing with my encumberance, just to see if I noticed a difference. It does feel like I get less crit shots when I am a big fatty. Did you get any further information on this?

Drayal
12-23-2011, 11:00 AM
Dude your avatar?
That crossbow is fucking massive.

Middian
12-23-2011, 11:45 AM
Genetics, Krolvins are big! =)

cuos
08-22-2012, 09:09 AM
Ranged AS: DEX Bonus + Bow/Arrow Enchant (+50 max) + Ranged Skill + (((Ambush ranks 40)/4) + ((Perception ranks 40)/4)) + Spell effects (211, 215, Warcry, 1606, 425, etc.)

What do you mean by ranged skill? Ranks or Bonus?

Cxai
08-22-2012, 09:16 AM
Ranged AS: DEX Bonus + Bow/Arrow Enchant (+50 max) + Ranged Skill + (((Ambush ranks – 40)/4) + ((Perception ranks – 40)/4)) + Spell effects (211, 215, Warcry, 1606, 425, etc.)

What do you mean by ranged skill? Ranks or Bonus?

Should be bonus.

Terzl
03-06-2013, 10:23 PM
Added some lesser-known info:

8. Modifying Skills and Spells

Target posture (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.) - Bonuses for more immobile postures, such as being prone.
Encumbrance - Decreases accuracy.
Level - Decreases(/increases?) accuracy.

Agree. I'll add this one..

Shooting from hiding seems to reduce target's chance to block/evade the shot. Totally anecdotal but I swear I see it a lot. You?

Riltus
03-08-2013, 05:32 PM
Ranged DS:

Ranged DS = TRUNC((ranged SKILL + perception RANKS) * stance modifier)

OFFENSIVE BOW = .15
ADVANCE BOW = .21
FORWARD BOW = .27
NEUTRAL BOW = .33
GUARDED BOW = .39
DEFENSIVE BOW = .45

OFFENSIVE CROSSBOW = .12
ADVANCE CROSSBOW = .17
FORWARD CROSSBOW = .22
NEUTRAL CROSSBOW = .27
GUARDED CROSSBOW = .32
DEFENSIVE CROSSBOW = .37

NOTES: Notice the SKILL/RANKS emphasis. This formula is 100% accurate for ranged skill, but every so often is +1 DS off when adding perception ranks (no more than +1). Further, the formula slows down when you're at 2x+ perception. You also need 1 rank of ranged to activate the formula (including receiving the DS of the bow/crossbow enchant).

BOW ENCHANT DS: Bow/crossbow enchant is added on a 1:1 ratio irregardless of stance (except against a ranged attack).

The above formula in the guide is incorrect. The stance mods are accurate but ambush ranks also add to DS.

Ranged weapon user melee parry DS formula:

Melee Parry DS = [(Ranged Skill + trunc(perception ranks/2) + trunc(ambush ranks/2)] * Stance Modifier) + Bow/Crossbow Enchant Bonus + Stance Bonus.

Stance Bonuses

OFF: 0
ADV: 10
FOR: 20
NEU: 30
GUA: 40
DEF: 50

Ambush and perception contribute to DS equally. How much will ambush ranks contribute toward parry DS? (see below)

DS increase at levels 40 and 100 with 80 and 200 ambush ranks, respectively (ranks/2 * stance mod):

Level 40 w/bow (80 ambush ranks):

OFF: (40 * .15) = +6
ADV: (40 * .21) = +8
FOR: (40 * .27) = +10
NEU: (40 * .33) = +13
GUA: (40 * .39) = +15
DEF: (40 * .45) = +18

Level 40 w/crossbow (80 ambush ranks):

OFF: (40 * .12) = +4
ADV: (40 * .17) = +6
FOR: (40 * .22) = +8
NEU: (40 * .27) = +10
GUA: (40 * .32) = +12
DEF: (40 * .37) = +14

Level 100 w/bow (200 ambush ranks):

OFF: (100 * .15) = +15
ADV: (100 * .21) = +21
FOR: (100 * .27) = +27
NEU: (100 * .33) = +33
GUA: (100 * .39) = +39
DEF: (100 * .45) = +45

Level 100 w/crossbow (200 ambush ranks):

OFF: (100 * .12) = +12
ADV: (100 * .17) = +17
FOR: (100 * .22) = +22
NEU: (100 * .27) = +27
GUA: (100 * .32) = +32
DEF: (100 * .37) = +37

Mark

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 05:54 PM
Terzl, I expect you're right.

Mark, FABULOUS. That formula makes more sense and is much easier to calculate than the previous one. Any ideas on Ranged Bolt DS (not to ask for more when you've just put the following together!)? I wonder if ranged/perception/ambush enhancives add to ranged DS. I'll check in a few.

If anyone cares to update the guide on Krakiipedia to the version here, btw, that would be much appreciated. This one has been evolving for the past 3 years while the Krakiipedia version has stayed static from the first version.

Riltus
03-08-2013, 06:08 PM
Terzl, I expect you're right.

Mark, FABULOUS. That formula makes more sense and is much easier to calculate than the previous one. Any ideas on Ranged Bolt DS (not to ask for more when you've just put the following together!)?

If anyone cares to update the guide on Krakiipedia to the version here, btw, that would be much appreciated. This one has been evolving for the past 3 years while the Krakiipedia version has stayed static from the first version.

I've updated KP. I've been working on the article (adding tables, general housekeeping) for a while now.

I included a section on ranged weapon users parry DS vs ranged attacks but it is just a comment, not a formula. From my limited research, there is very little DS vs ranged attacks. Normally, ranged attacks, including bolts, completely bypass parry DS. What I observed was that ranged weapon users receive some defense, albeit a very small fraction of melee DS.

Mark

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 06:29 PM
You are utterly fantastic.

Have you checked to see if ranged/perception/ambush enhancives factor into the ranged DS formula? The formula may only take the base stats into account for DS. I can check in a bit myself.

NinjasLeadTheWay
03-08-2013, 06:30 PM
If I haven't said it before. This is the coolest fucking thing on PC. It's guided the last two characters I've made and gotten to 40 and 60. I'd buy you a beer or three if I could.

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 06:57 PM
Answers that, I think: Earring is +5 ranged bonus, +5 ambush bonus:

XXXXXX swings a zorchar-runed ebonwood staff at you!
AS: +167 vs DS: +437 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +32 = -231
A clean miss.
The guiding force leaves XXXXXX.

You remove a glimmering ruby sunburst earring from your earlobe.

You put a glimmering ruby sunburst earring in your faenor-stitched cloak.

XXXXXX swings a zorchar-runed ebonwood staff at you!
AS: +167 vs DS: +436 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +97 = -165
A clean miss.
The guiding force leaves XXXXXX.

Riltus
03-08-2013, 07:18 PM
Here's another tidbit (see bolded text below) that I inserted into the Basic Mechanics section on the KP guide that's not in the PC version. I'll need to compare the guides more thoroughly and to see where other edits may be needed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Basic Mechanics:
Bows and crossbows require ammunition, which can either be purchased at bowyer's shop, bought from other players, or made by the archer (see Fletching). Many people find ammunition to be the most irritating of the requirements for archery and the requirement turns many people off. Done properly, however, it's a very simple adjustment. For additional information, see the AIM and FIRE commands in the game.

You may hold your bow in either hand, though the game will automatically place it in your left hand (if it's free) if you use the READY and UNSHEATHE verbs. It is important to note that holding bows or crossbows in the right hand changes the DS profile from ranged weapon to the melee weapon counterpart (bows --> quarterstaff, crossbows --> cudgel). Generally, an archer will have a higher DS with the weapon held in the left hand.

Mark

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 07:43 PM
(Wrong math. Ignore.)

Whirlin
03-08-2013, 08:20 PM
There's an encumbrance factor in there somewhere as well...

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 08:22 PM
I'm ignoring encumbrance. It affects things, but it's a secondary consideration, especially for ranged, where it has no effect on DS.

Riltus
03-08-2013, 08:42 PM
I'm ignoring encumbrance. It affects things, but it's a secondary consideration.

That's not the issue. You are confusing the dodge formula vs ranged attacks and its 1.5 multiplier with a ranged weapon user's dodge DS vs melee attacks. There is only one formula that applies to all characters.

Your melee parry DS:

[(307 + 101 + 103) * .15] + 30 = 106 parry DS

Note: always truncate after each operation

Your dodge DS:

(101 + 35 + 6) * .92 * .75 = 97

Parry: 106
Dodge: 97
Armor: 35
------------
Total DS: +238 :)

You'll see that in the KP guide I removed dodge DS. It just complicates calculating total DS having all that info there.

BriarFox
03-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Ahh, I gotcha. Thanks, Mark.

Whirlin
03-12-2013, 11:56 AM
Damage factors for composite bows need updating per
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?79318-An-unintended-%28-%29-side-effect-of-critical-randomization/page2

BriarFox
03-12-2013, 10:29 PM
Damage factors for composite bows need updating per
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?79318-An-unintended-%28-%29-side-effect-of-critical-randomization/page2

Updated. I've always been confused as to why bows have a better DF against scale than leather, though.

Whirlin
03-13-2013, 11:43 AM
Urgh... alright... in defense of enchanting up a longbow, I've had to do lots of maths... I figured I'd dump some into this thread.

For a GUARENTEED one-shot-eye-kill, you need a Crit Tier 8 due to crit randomization (Half of crit tier is the minimum... Tier 4 eye crit is death). Crit Tiers are calculated by End Damage / Armor Divisor.
Cloth: 5 Armor Divisor
Composite Bow: 215 Endroll *.35 DF = 40 = Tier 8 Crit
Long Bow: 200 Endroll *.40 DF = 40 Damage, = Tier 8 Crit
15 lower required Endroll for crit kill for a longbow

Leather: 6 Armor Divisor
Composite Bow: 260 Endroll * .3 DF = 48 damage = Tier 8 Crit
Long Bow: 248 Endroll * .325 = 48 Damage = Tier 8 Crit
12 lower Endroll for Crit kill for a longbow

Scale: 7 Armor Divisor
Composite Bow: 273 Endroll * .325 DF = 56 damage = Tier 8 Crit
Long Bow: 260 Endroll * .35 = 56 Damage = Tier 8 Crit
13 lower Endroll for Crit kill for a longbow

Chain: 9 Armor Divisor
Composite Bow: 362 Endroll * .275 DF = 72 damage = Tier 8 Crit
Long Bow: 340 Endroll * .3 = 72 Damage = Tier 8 Crit
22 lower Endroll for Crit kill for a longbow

Plate: 11 Armor Divisor
Composite Bow: 687 Endroll * .150 DF = 88 damage = Tier 8 Crit
Long Bow: 603 Endroll * .175 = 99 Damage = Tier 8 Crit
84 lower Endroll for Crit kill for a longbow

Why do these numbers look so high?
trunc(DEX bonus/4) is added as phantom raw damage to your rolls for determining crits. Which can massively stage up crits. These are also all the thresholds for GUARENTEED crit kills, rather than potential.

Whirlin
03-13-2013, 03:31 PM
Eye-shot Crit Table:

| Cloth|Leather|Scale|Chain|Plate
Short Bow DF |0.325|0.225|0.275|0.250|0.100
Composite Bow DF|0.350|0.300|0.325|0.275|0.150
Long Bow DF |0.400|0.325|0.350|0.300|0.175
Short Bow Minimum Endroll to Crit Kill|162|207|202|244|540
Short Bow Endroll for Guaranteed Crit Kill|224|314|304|388|980
Composite Bow Minimum Endroll to Crit Kill|158|180|187|231|394
Composite Bow Endroll for Guaranteed Crit Kill|215|260|273|362|687
Long Bow Minimum Endroll to Crit Kill|150|174|180|220|352
Long Bow Endroll for Guaranteed Crit Kill|200|248|260|340|603


Equation:
Minimum Roll=ROUNDUP((Crit Divisor*8)/DF,0)+100
Guaranteed Roll=ROUNDUP((Crit Divisor*8)/DF,0)+100

neimanz1
04-30-2013, 03:35 PM
You draw back on your iron-nocked longbow and a bolt of pure energy appears.
You fire a bolt of pure energy at a Grimswarm giant ranger!
AS: +597 vs DS: +347 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +57 = +332
... and hit for 111 points of damage!
Shot destroys eye and the brain behind it!
[You have earned 45 prestige points.]

The giant ranger falls to the ground and dies.
The powerful look leaves a Grimswarm giant ranger.
The deep blue glow leaves a Grimswarm giant ranger.
The energy breaks into tiny fragments.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
[saimtest: -- shot result: 67.0% hits, 33.0% misses, 100 shots]
[saimtest: -- shot result: 68.0% hits, 32.0% misses, 100 shots]


Results with Halfling ranger 2x perception and 2x ambush. over 60 percent of the shots are sniping

BriarFox
03-13-2014, 04:58 PM
Buckwheet asked me to think of spells that increase Ranged AS. Here's my initial list. Any others? Remember that the spell has to add generic AS or bolt AS, not melee AS.

Ranged AS-enhancing Spells:
Kai's Song
Dauntless
Bravery
Heroism
Elemental Targetting
Spirit Strike
Zealot
Benediction
Symbol of the Proselyte
Intensity
Assume Aspect (through stat modifications)

droit
03-13-2014, 06:00 PM
Ensorcell

BriarFox
03-13-2014, 06:40 PM
Ensorcell

I thought about that one. It's a little different than the others, but I'll add it, too.

SHAFT
03-13-2014, 06:46 PM
Ensorcell

Ensorcell doesn't work with e- bows;(

BriarFox
03-13-2014, 06:53 PM
8. Modifying Skills, Spells, and Effects

Modifying Skills and Spells:
Surge of Strength (a combat maneuver): Helps reduce firing time by temporarily increasing STR Bonus
Shadow Mastery (a combat maneuver): Reduces stalking and hiding time and adds bonuses to hiding. SM will also allow a ranger using 608 to retain some of the AS bonus when sneaking.
Multi-Fire (a combat maneuver): Allows an archer to fire two or more unaimed arrows simultaneously, at one or multiple targets. However, I suggest you avoid this maneuver except for shits and giggles, since you can fire aimed single arrows faster.
Weapon Specification (a combat maneuver): By wspecing an arrow, an archer can gain up to +10 AS.
Phoen's Strength (606): Reduces firing time by increasing STR Bonus by +10
Wizard's Strength (509): Reduces firing time by increasing STR Bonus by +15
Camouflage (608): Instant hide and +30 AS for one attack. With sufficient hiding skill, an archer can stay hidden with a constant +30 AS bonus.
Self Control (613): Adds bonuses to aiming
Sneaking (617): Adds bonuses to hiding (increased with Blessings Lore)
Presence (402): Adds a bonus to aiming
Disarm Enhancement (404): Adds a bonus to aiming
Target posture (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.) - Accuracy bonuses for more immobile postures, such as being prone.
Encumbrance - Decreases accuracy.
Level - Decreases(/increases?) accuracy.

Animal Companions (630): Animal companions (available to advanced rangers) have a Guard command that generally lets them guard the ranger for up to -25 AS/+25 DS. With ranged (and thrown) weapons, there is no AS penalty.

Ranged AS-Enhancing Spells:
Kai's Song - +10 AS boost, increasing with bard ranks
Dauntless - +10 AS boost, with other benefits
Bravery - +15 AS boost, with other benefits
Heroism - +25 AS boost, with other benefits, increasing with Blessings lore
Elemental Targetting - +25 AS, increasing with major elemental ranks
Spirit Strike - +75 AS for one shot (blue crystals contain this spell)
Zealot - +30 AS / -30 DS, modified with Religion lore
Benediction - +5 AS, increasing with cleric ranks
Symbol of the Proselyte - +5 AS, depending on cleric stats, training, and deity vs. target resolution
Intensity - +20 AS, increasing with empath ranks and level
Assume Aspect (through stat modifications) - Modifies stats depending on lore and companion type. Try Wolf (DEX) and Lion (STR), among others.
Ensorcell (through permanent item modification) - +5 (T1) to +25 (T5) AS on single shots if flare does not restore mana/health/etc.

N.B. Depending on how these spells are cast, ranks in MIU or AS may affect the bonus.

Enhancive Items:
With the release of enhancive items through the treasure system, it's become relatively easy to boost skills and stats. One is limited to a total +50 bonus to a skill and +40 bonus to a stat (+20 stat bonus). Though there are a number of ways enhancives can be useful, an archer with a low Strength bonus or, in particular, a Strength bonus only a point or three off from the next RT reduction (every +10 STR bonus) might find wearable Strength enhancives particularly useful. Dexterity bonus also adds directly to AS and increases phantom crit weighting (bonus/4).

Some of the most common enhancives for ranged weaponry are the "leather wrist guards" released at the Winterfest Caravan of 2008. They're +4 Ranged Weapons Bonus and one can wear two of them on the wrists. They cost about 2400 Bounty Points to recharge at the Adventurer's Guild.

Fusion is also an ideal way to increase one's ranged abilities.


Updated.

Lady Sylvan
03-15-2014, 10:48 AM
That is why Im not an archer mage. To many different scripts to target.. fire... gather... blah blah etc. Im glad all of you enjoy archery.

Lady Nairena
Mage of Ta'Vaalor
Member of the Eahnor Assembly

Aganii
03-15-2014, 12:49 PM
Does symbol of the proselyte really give a bonus to archery? I thought that was only for spells and not for physical attacks. Maybe only spirit bows and the like?