Claidh vs Maul vs Lance

[HgCn]

Please feel free to shut me down and link me somewhere if this has been discussed.....

That being said...


I've seen a lot migration in the 2handers world to Mauls and Lances. I just recently returned after a LONG stint away from the lands and I'm trying to come to peace with what to do.

I'm a die hard claidh user since forever, but I've heard that the critical weighting system got nerfed big time and now mauls/lances are the way to go.

So what i want to know is, what are the +'s and -'s to mauls over claidhs. Is it a HUGE CLEAR advantage or sort of an ongoing debate.

So either talk me in to sticking with claidhs, or out of using them.

Thanks ahead of time,

-A

[audioserf]

Maul/mattock advantage is lower roundtimes and higher enchant really. Plus it's far easier to obtain a magic metal maul/mattock for hunting certain creatures than a claidh. My warmage prefers his 4x superior maul to his 0x standard claidhmore.

[HgCn]

I have a 2x claidh...and I'm in the market for a 3x+...

5 sec rt....

Magic Metal.

[The-Pwny-Express]

maul=super pimp rt. AVD, DF is high against chain/plate. Overall it's pretty full of win. Can have a perfect one


claid=has a stupid amount of crit weighting


lance= High AVD, DF against chain/plate. Swings slow, but seems to hit harder than it should? Idk. Also training in polearms and using a two-handed polearm will give you a higher DS than training in THW. Can also have a perfect


It's just your call really

[HgCn]

How low are Maul RTs?

[The-Pwny-Express]

base 7 seconds
compared to claid-8 and lance-9

[Androidpk]

You honestly can't go wrong with either of those.

[WRoss]

The biggest thing about mauls/mattocks and lances is the DF. You can get perfect forged versions for pretty cheap. The 6% DF boost is amazing. For the price you'd pay for a 3x claid, you could get a 6-7x perfect lance or maul. You can also add flares and weighting to mauls/mattocks.

[Latrinsorm]

If you're hunting things in no armor and have limited skills (that is to say, hunting at low levels), obviously use the claidhmore and pulp everything.

If you're looking for a weapon you can min/max the shit out of, get a maul and amb head. Tasty DFs + base 7 + crush only = aghlaghlaghlaghl. Open or hidden, mauls are proper bestial.

If you're a warrior or bard, charge with a lance is tempting. If you're a paladin, reroll.

.

There are no real HUGE CLEAR advantages anymore (except in the eyes of certain observers, and eyes are terribly unreliable). Some might say this is a bad thing, I say variety is the spice, and spice controls the universe.

[holocene]

And keep in mind that Mauls are crush-only damage (as opposed to puncture and slash), and when aiming for the head on many creatures a good crush crit-kills.

[Guister]

claidh

[Durgrimst]

If your a warrior, berserk+perfect lance=win

[Androidpk]

If you're a paladin, reroll.


I resent that.

[Latrinsorm]

Forgiveness, please: If you're a paladin, reroll OR beg the GMs to let you convert back to a real profession.

[Gelston]

You can convert back. For $200.

[Drew]

Here's my take, I've used all three at one point or another:

claid: If you have low endrolls, this is a good weapon. When you are young, this is a good weapon. If you want to impress stupid people and pimp bitches (and most people are stupid) get a magic metal one of these.

maul/mattock: If you ever aim your shots, this is the weapon of choice. If you are a giantman or half-krolvin, this is your weapon. As mentioned you can get a perfect maul, also there are a few claid weighted mattocks that are 4x+. These are my favorite weapon in the entire game.

Lance: Are you a fast race? Do you not aim for the head much? This is the weapon for you. If you can muster a decent AS and the creature stuns, it will be stunned. If it can lose limbs or fall over, it will do that. If it needs a ton of HP taken off to kill it, it can also do that.

[HgCn]

Warrior in my high 30's....Giantman

I mean i clearly see the benefit of the maul vs plate....I guess right now I just don't hunt much that has heavy armor...I suppose tougher armors become more common place the higher up you get.

I'm getting the picture slowly I think.

I just wanted to know if maul vs claidh vs lance was really just a matter of taste....or if I'm a fucking retard as a warrior for using a claidh vs lance/maul.

thanks for the responses so far,

-A

[Androidpk]

Berserk + lance.

[DaCapn]

If you're looking for crit-kills, I did a little number crunching and the results are interesting.

* Crush vs. head/neck : Rank 5 critical is required post-randomization for a kill
* Slash vs. head/neck : Rank 6 critical is required post-randomization for a kill
* Puncture vs. head/neck : Rank 6 critical is required post-randomization for a kill
* Required endroll : Roundup[ (Rank * Divisor - Weighting) / DF +100 ]

Maul vs. head/neck


Kill Crit Endroll vs. AG
Chance Rank 1 2 3 4 5
100.00% 9 182 228 249 316 430
80.00% 8 173 213 232 292 394
75.00% 7 164 199 216 268 357
50.00% 6 155 185 199 244 320
33.33% 5 146 171 183 220 284

DF 0.550 0.425 0.425 0.375 0.300
Divisor 5 6 7 9 11

New-style Claidhmore vs. head/neck


Kill Crit Endroll vs. AG
Chance Rank 1 2 3 4 5
90.00% 9 108 130 146 218 363
70.00% 8 100 117 132 192 314
62.50% 7 92 105 118 166 265
37.00% 6 84 92 104 140 216
16.67% 5 76 79 90 115 167

DF 0.625 0.475 0.500 0.350 0.225
Divisor 5 6 7 9 11

Old-style Claidhmore vs. head/neck


Kill Crit Endroll vs. AG
Chance Rank 1 2 3 4 5
90.00% 9 108 128 146 218 315
70.00% 8 100 116 132 192 275
62.50% 7 92 104 118 166 235
37.00% 6 84 92 104 140 195
16.67% 5 76 80 90 115 155

DF 0.625 0.500 0.500 0.350 0.275
Divisor 5 6 7 9 11

Lance vs. head/neck


Kill Crit Endroll vs. AG
Chance Rank 1 2 3 4 5
84.00% 9 163 203 215 271 383
64.00% 8 156 192 202 252 352
55.00% 7 149 180 190 233 320
29.20% 6 142 169 177 214 289
6.67% 5 135 158 164 195 258

DF 0.725 0.525 0.550 0.475 0.350
Divisor 5 6 7 9 11


Roundtime comparison


Weapon RT (base) RT (min)
Maul 7 5
Claidhmore 8 5
Lance 9 5


Assumptions/notes:
- Claidhmore weighting is 40 points
- Claidhmore is 50/50 crush/slash
- Lance is 80/20 puncture/crush
- If you have a +20 maul and a +10 claidhmore (meaning +0 old-style claidhmore), the maul will have a higher endroll on average by 10, 11, 20, 24, and 27 vs robes, soft leather, hard leather, chain, and plate respectively.
- If you have a +20 lance and a +10 claidhmore (meaning +0 old-style claidhmore), the maul will have a higher endroll on average by 14, 13, 15, 25, and 23 vs robes, soft leather, hard leather, chain, and plate respectively.

I've made at least 2 mistakes already. Please correct me if you see something incorrect.

Corrections/edits:
- Corrected maul robes DF 0.555 -> 0.550 (no impact on required endrolls). Not sure how I ended up with the wrong value since I just copy/pasted them.
- Changed values from head to head/neck since they have equivalent crit-kill requirements.
- Clarified required endroll as rounded up (if you're calculatinge crit rank from endroll it's a truncate).
- Fixed lance from being 50/50 puncture/crush to 80/20
- Fixed claidhmore weighting. I thought weighting was randomized at the time. I decided to renege a while ago but didn't have my original spreadsheet handy. Some recent post reminded me to fix the chart.
- Added RT comparison at the end just because it's useful.

[Marl]

so what if you are a berserking warrior who doesnt open ambush at all..
will a +5 claidh be good until you get into your 50s or so?

[HgCn]

Great point...what if you don't ambush?

[whiteflash]

It should also be noted you can cman into whatever type of damage you prefer for some of those weapons. So you can swing your claid at 100% crush (I think, anyhow) and that will probably change some of those numbers of head shots in strong favor of the claid (if you can get your RT to an acceptable place).

[WRoss]

Mauls - Better AVD, faster, cheaper
Lances - Better AVD, slower, somewhat cheap but harder to find
Claidhmore - Suck AVD, slow, expensive as shit - OVERRATED

[Durgrimst]

This is my big weapons for dummies way to decide what to use chart...

mauls= ambusher, or slow races
lances= berserkers or mstriker's
claid's= low AS, I say that because if you have a high AS with endrolls over 200 on a regular basis a maul or lance is good, but if you aren't getting good endrolls on a regular basis then do with the weighting.

[Drew]

If anyone can confirm what crit rank (post-randomization) is required for a puncture & slash to the neck, I'll change the tables.


Great post. To answer this question neck works exactly the same way as the head.



It should also be noted you can cman into whatever type of damage you prefer for some of those weapons. So you can swing your claid at 100% crush (I think, anyhow) and that will probably change some of those numbers of head shots in strong favor of the claid (if you can get your RT to an acceptable place).


Unfortunately that cman is incompatible with aiming. You don't really want to crush 100% of the time in open shots since slash is actually better on some limbs.



so what if you are a berserking warrior who doesnt open ambush at all..
will a +5 claidh be good until you get into your 50s or so?


You can go all the way to cap with a claidhmore, we are just discussing the best route mechanically. If you really like your claidhmore, keep it.


Great point...what if you don't ambush?

Are you a giantman, hk, dwarf, or human (and possibly erithi and aelotoli). Use a maul or mattock. Are you a fast race? Use a lance.

Are you a warmage? A swinging empath or cleric? Is the creature you are hunting stunnable and crittable? Use a claidhmore.

[Latrinsorm]

It should also be noted you can cman into whatever type of damage you prefer for some of those weapons. So you can swing your claid at 100% crush (I think, anyhow) and that will probably change some of those numbers of head shots in strong favor of the claid (if you can get your RT to an acceptable place).CMAN Precision does not work with aimed attacks.

DaCapn:
1. I noticed you have ".555" as the Maul Skin DF, is that a typo? I have it as .550.
2. I don't have exact figures, but I remember seeing lances at 80/20 puncture.
3. Neck puncture and slash kill on 6.
4. I'm confused by your Kill Chance numbers for the claidhmore/lance parts. For instance, at rank 9 you have 90%, but 4 kills out of 5 possible ranks would be 80%. At rank 5 you have 16.67%, but you need a rank 6 to kill so it would be 0%.

[WRoss]

Are you a warmage? A swinging empath or cleric?

Empaths swing a ton harder than wizards or clerics. I'm 97 and swinging 485 self spelled with a 6x perfect maul. Not that great, not that bad either.

On another note, I honestly think the best all around THW would be the perfect DCW mauls. I think there are two 4x, two 5x, and one 6x. Quite an amazing weapon.

[WRoss]

Also, if someone has a script or a processing program, I have two chars, identical AS, one swings a perfect maul, the other a perfect lance. It would be interesting to see the break downs in ranges of end roll. I have logs of us doing about 20 warcamps.

[Riltus]

CMAN Precision does not work with aimed attacks.

DaCapn:
1. I noticed you have ".555" as the Maul Skin DF, is that a typo? I have it as .550.
2. I don't have exact figures, but I remember seeing lances at 80/20 puncture.
3. Neck puncture and slash kill on 6.
4. I'm confused by your Kill Chance numbers for the claidhmore/lance parts. For instance, at rank 9 you have 90%, but 4 kills out of 5 possible ranks would be 80%. At rank 5 you have 16.67%, but you need a rank 6 to kill so it would be 0%.


Ref 4) He's using 50/50 crush/slash for the claidh and 50/50 crush/puncture for the lance.

Rank 9: 100% crush + 80% slash/puncture = 90%
Rank 5: 33.3% crush + 0% slash/puncture = 16.67%


Assumptions/notes:
- Weighting was rated at 20.5 points (average for randomization of a 40-point weighted claidhmore)

Crit weighting doesn't randomize like crit/damage padding and damage weighting. The full weighting is applied and then the crit is randomized.

Mark

[DaCapn]

DaCapn:
1. I noticed you have ".555" as the Maul Skin DF, is that a typo? I have it as .550.
2. I don't have exact figures, but I remember seeing lances at 80/20 puncture.
3. Neck puncture and slash kill on 6.
4. I'm confused by your Kill Chance numbers for the claidhmore/lance parts. For instance, at rank 9 you have 90%, but 4 kills out of 5 possible ranks would be 80%. At rank 5 you have 16.67%, but you need a rank 6 to kill so it would be 0%.

1) Not sure how that happened but you're correct. The difference is low enough that it doesn't affect the required endrolls at all, though.
2) Anyone have a source for this or at least verification? And do you mean 80/20 puncture/crush or crush/puncture?
3) Thanks for confirmation.
4) It is an appropriately weighted average of crush/slash & crush/puncture crit-kill percentages (as Riltus said http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=1060595&postcount=29)


Crit weighting doesn't randomize like crit/damage padding and damage weighting. The full weighting is applied and then the crit is randomized

I know you've done lots of testing on all of this stuff but I was told by Paul that all weighting and padding was randomized after the change-over to GS4.

[Latrinsorm]

Ref 4) He's using 50/50 crush/slash for the claidh and 50/50 crush/puncture for the lance.

Rank 9: 100% crush + 80% slash/puncture = 90%
Rank 5: 33.3% crush + 0% slash/puncture = 16.67%Ah, duh. :thanx:
And do you mean 80/20 puncture/crush or crush/puncture?80% puncture.

[caelric]

Are you a giantman, hk, dwarf, or human (and possibly erithi and aelotoli). Use a maul or mattock. Are you a fast race? Use a lance.

Are you a warmage? A swinging empath or cleric? Is the creature you are hunting stunnable and crittable? Use a claidhmore.


What about a half krol swinging sorcerer with a suprisingly good AS?

[Drew]

What about a half krol swinging sorcerer with a suprisingly good AS?

LOL, look at the endroll chart that DaCapn did, that should give you some idea. If you're near the higher end I'd go with a perfect maul. If the lower, claid.

[Drew]

Empaths swing a ton harder than wizards or clerics. I'm 97 and swinging 485 self spelled with a 6x perfect maul. Not that great, not that bad either.

On another note, I honestly think the best all around THW would be the perfect DCW mauls. I think there are two 4x, two 5x, and one 6x. Quite an amazing weapon.

Yeah empath can generate surprisingly high AS. I think when they are young claid is the way to go, but after you get bravery and heroism maybe switch to the maul.

[Smythe]

I know you've done lots of testing on all of this stuff but I was told by Paul that all weighting and padding was randomized after the change-over to GS4.

I think yer both sayin' da same thing.

- Smythe

[DaCapn]

I think yer both sayin' da same thing.

- Smythe

No, not really.


Crit weighting doesn't randomize like crit/damage padding and damage weighting. The full weighting is applied and then the crit is randomized.

I know you've done lots of testing on all of this stuff but I was told by Paul that all weighting and padding was randomized after the change-over to GS4.

[WRoss]

Yeah empath can generate surprisingly high AS. I think when they are young claid is the way to go, but after you get bravery and heroism maybe switch to the maul.

1130 is what makes the huge difference. At cap, its +55 AS/DS. If I max out blessing lore, I'll be just over 500 self spelled AS at cap.

[audioserf]

As my warmage gets older (lvel 16 now) I'm using the claidh less and less. 2 second swing of a 4x superior maul > 3 second swing of a claidhmore. Once I get that maul down to 1 second at level 34 (not in a rush because 2 is more than sufficient so far) it will just be disgusting.

I'm going to be saving his silvers for a perfect maul.

Edit: Half-krolvin with something like a 34 AGIDEX.

[zhelas]

My warrior was looking for a nice maul. However I found a +9 Claidhmore in a warcamp. So for now at 35 he swings his claidhmore.

It was easier to use what I had for now versus spending silvers on a new weapon.

[Sam]

Brute is a gnome warrior, so his AS sucks and mechanics are probably more important in his case than for your average giantman warrior.

That being said, at level 58 I don't think my weapon choice has mattered too much so far. Currently Brute has a maul and a claidhmore.. He used a lance for about 5 levels. The only reason I've changed weapon types here and there is out of boredom.

Claidhmores, Mauls and Lances all tear shit up.. Especially if you're berserking. I think I'll be trying a flaring perfect maul next.

[zhelas]

Claidhmores, Mauls and Lances all tear shit up.. Especially if you're berserking.

Bingo!

[DCSL]

Or mstriking. Lysistrata was a lance mstriker and it just fucking killed. Let a lot of critters gather up, sonic disrupt 'em all into a stun or instant death, and then a single mstrike was all it'd take to finish off the lot. For things that stunned, anyway. Otherwise, sleep and then mstrike. Or just mstrike. Either way, lances rock.

[Loyrl]

My warrior was looking for a nice maul. However I found a +9 Claidhmore in a warcamp. So for now at 35 he swings his claidhmore.

It was easier to use what I had for now versus spending silvers on a new weapon.

Nice, congrats Z, what type of metal is it? I just got my +32 perfect maul that I need to bond and wspec to. So I can't wait to try it out, I just have to be really damn careful while I bond to it cause of where I hunt. :club: Have been using a 5x greatsword since level 30ish, wow...

[zhelas]

Nice, congrats Z, what type of metal is it?

You glance down to see a well-balanced faenor claidhmore in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.

>assess my claid
You assess the claidhmore for structural weaknesses and strengths.

Careful examination indicates the faenor claidhmore has a base strength of 90 and a base durability of 245. You also determine the current integrity of the faenor claidhmore to be at 100.0%.

You heft the weapon a few times...but note nothing unusual about it. It appears to have standard claidhmore weighting (fantastic) to cause critical wounds.

R>look my claid
You see nothing unusual, except for a small enchanter's glyph.

>inspect my claid
You carefully inspect your faenor claidhmore.

After a careful inspection you determine that a well-balanced faenor claidhmore requires skill in twohanded weapons to use effectively.

It looks like this item has been mainly crafted out of faenor.

I did get it lightened at EG

>weigh my claid
You carefully examine the faenor claidhmore and determine that the weight is about 9 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[audioserf]

Damn that is nice. Jealous. My wizard hasn't found shit except some 1x full leather and a faenor backsword. Weak.

[audioserf]

Where does a katana (2handed) fall into this mix? When I last played GS, these didn't exist (and, in fact, this was a major point of contention between players and GMs who insisted on avoiding any Asian influences in the game). I like the idea of using one, and I know it has a fast swing time. Not sure it would be worth the money over a perfect maul though!

[Nuc]

I'm a half-krolvin ranger with a 70 agidex so I ambush with both the maul and claid with a 6 RT and honestly it makes no difference. However, you can probably buy a 7x perfect maul for about the price of a 2x claid (in fact a 6x perfect maul just sold for 9 mill) and the maul will be blessable while the claid will not be. The maul also has the advantage for mstrike/berserk over the claid because of the lower base roundtime.

I for one though will probably never part with my claid simply because I love claids.

[Loyrl]

The maul also has the advantage for mstrike/berserk over the claid because of the lower base roundtime.

Only if you're doing 2 hits. After two, the RT was the same (12) for a claid and a greatsword for me, even with 5 strikes on one creature.

[Defeat]

Where does a katana (2handed) fall into this mix? When I last played GS, these didn't exist (and, in fact, this was a major point of contention between players and GMs who insisted on avoiding any Asian influences in the game). I like the idea of using one, and I know it has a fast swing time. Not sure it would be worth the money over a perfect maul though!

Among the weapon classes discussed in this thread, 2h katanas are, in my opinion, mechanically weakest of the lot. They do a fair amount of damage, but dont quite take limbs like a claidh, dont quite hit as hard as a maul, and dont quite obliterate like a lance. They are, however, very stylish- and there are a lot of daisho's out there to build a character around. So if RP is more your venue, by all means- its worth the money. But if you are running numbers on straight mechanics, I would put my money on the perfect maul; or if your stats can handle it, the perfect lance.

- Naix

[Drew]

Where does a katana (2handed) fall into this mix? When I last played GS, these didn't exist (and, in fact, this was a major point of contention between players and GMs who insisted on avoiding any Asian influences in the game). I like the idea of using one, and I know it has a fast swing time. Not sure it would be worth the money over a perfect maul though!

Like the guy said, just avoid these.

[Ugotfaced]

Honestlt, just find a 4x Naginata, I have a char. that's 12 swinging one of these things and he's taken out like 15 warcamps already. AVD I've seen is no less than 47 against most foes. Even had an AVD of 51 against a couple things in the past. Honestly if you factor in AVD, a claidh past level 30 is useless, it's AVD against plate armor drops down to nearly nothing. A Katar has a better AVD than a claidh. Just buy a 4-5x Naginata, and then go to the EG and get it weighted. nasty weapon imo

[audioserf]

I don't want to re-spec to polearms, though, so no nag for me. I just prefer mauls/claidhs/flails, always have (although I did run a polearm bard back in the day and naginatas are amazing).

Thanks for the advice re: katanas. I will continue to save for a 4x perfect maul.

[Sam]

I don't want to re-spec to polearms, though, so no nag for me. I just prefer mauls/claidhs/flails, always have (although I did run a polearm bard back in the day and naginatas are amazing).


I've always thought THW was the best way to go, especially if you get kinda bored easily. I currently use a claid AND a maul, and have many other options when I feel like changing it up. (It's always fun to grab a feras mattock for a few mstrike sessions.)

[Sam]

Honestly if you factor in AVD, a claidh past level 30 is useless

There are a lot of warriors whose history would prove this to be quite untrue.
Not everything past 30 wears heavy armor.

[audioserf]

I've always thought THW was the best way to go, especially if you get kinda bored easily. I currently use a claid AND a maul, and have many other options when I feel like changing it up. (It's always fun to grab a feras mattock for a few mstrike sessions.)

Whenever I see a feras mattock at the pawn I grab it, because it's my go-to "shouldn't be fighting this thing" weapon. Haste myself and swing away. I took down a major spider at like level 9 with that tactic. THW owns.