Death Recovery vs. Death's Sting

[CrystalTears]

Death Recovery vs. Death's Sting - POLL · on 3/17/2004 2:08:02 PM 568


An alternative to Death Recovery has been designed and we are looking for your input as to which method, Death Recovery or Death's Sting, would be most appealing to you.

Please read the two options and vote at https://www.play.net/gs4/news/deathpoll.asp.

Please discuss these two options in the Hunting and Game Design Discussions folder, Developer's Corner - Design Discussions subfolder.

Thank you.


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Option One - Death Recovery

When a character dies and is later restored to life, the character will accrue Death Recovery (DR) points. When a character has DR points, half of the character's experience earned will go toward the character's Death Recovery "bucket", while the other half will go towards the character's Experience total. Once the character has fully recovered (DR points have returned to zero), all experience gained will go towards the character's Experience total.

Death Recovery points are assessed at the time of resurrection. Characters will also lose any unabsorbed field experience at the time of resurrection.

DEATH WITH DEEDS AND RESURRECTION
If a character dies with deeds and is resurrected, the character will accrue 1,000 Death Recovery (DR) points.

DEATH WITH RESURRECTION, BUT WITHOUT DEEDS
If a character dies without deeds and is resurrected, the character will accrue 10,000 DR points.

DECAYING WITH DEEDS
If a character decays with deeds, the character will accrue 10,000 DR points.

DECAYING WITHOUT DEEDS
Say goodbye to permanent death! If a character decays without deeds, the character will accrue 20,000 DR points.

Types of Death DR Points
Deaths with Deeds and Ressurection 1,000
Death with Ressurection, No Deeds 10,000
Decay with Deeds 10,000
Decay without Deeds 20,000


Characters levels 0-9 will not receive DR Points.


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Option Two - Death's Sting

Upon being restored to life, a character will be in a weakened state, with all stats experiencing a reduction of 40%. The rate of recovery depends on how the character died and was restored to life.

Types of Death Stat Recovery
Death with Deeds and Ressurection 4% per minute
Death with Ressurection, No Deeds 2% per minute
Decay with Deeds 2% per minute
Decay without Deeds 1% per minute


The Cleric spell, Holy Receptacle (325) - Chrism, can be used to mitigate this weakness, reducing it by up to 50% (to a 20% stat reduction). This will allow characters to prepare for emergencies, like major invasions, and be able to get fallen heroes back into the fray within just a few minutes, if needed, but at a cost of a Chrism gem. Also, characters under level 10 will recover at twice the normal rate.

In addition to the above, the character's max Hit Points (HP) and max mana will be reduced, with the amount based on the way that the character died and the number of times the character has died that level.

Types of Death Temporary Max Health & Mana Reduction
Death with Deeds and Ressurection 1 per death that level
Death with Ressurection, No Deeds 2 + 1 per death that level
Decay with Deeds 2 + 1 per death that level
Decay without Deeds 5 + 1 per death that level


The modifier for deaths that level will be capped at 5; even if a character has a chronic death problem, the character will not lose more than 5 max health/mana for a normal death with resurrection. The cumulative maximum reduction will be capped at 25% of the character's total, so a character should never get to the point where it is not possible to function. These points will be recouped at a rate of 1 point per 1000 exp gained. The Cleric spell, Holy Receptacle (325) - Chrism, may mitigate this weakness, reducing it by up to 2 points. Characters under level 10 will not lose health or mana for deaths. Characters will also lose any unabsorbed field experience at the time of resurrection.

There will be a means by which characters can recoup these temporary losses other than gaining experience, but it will be costly (silvers).

This message was originally posted in Hunting and Game Design Discussions, Developer's Corner -- Design Discussions. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=4&topic=2&message= 1919

[Bobmuhthol]

Death Sting plz omg.

The HP thing pisses me off, though. Like.. a lot.

[Edited on 3-17-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[peam]

Yeah. The first Death's Sting described looks pretty good. Makes more sense, from an in-character perspective too.

[Wezas]

Second one sounded good until I got to the part where it says how long it would take.

15 minutes to get all stats back up to snuff (asuming you were resurrected with deeds) doesn't seem that bad.

Being a giant, I really don't care about the HP. But taking away mana? And only gaining it back at 1 mana/1k exp? This is going to totally suck for younger characters (10-20). Warriors and Rogues really won't notice much of a difference, though.

As for the "There will be a means by which characters can recoup these temporary losses other than gaining experience, but it will be costly (silvers).", I'm not sure how I feel about that. You should be able to pay for better armor and weapons, but you shouldn't be able to pay for better stats (even temporarily)

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

How about they start taking learned experience away so that you actually LOSE levels.

I mean fuck, I gained all of 30k in the last 4 months, I'm clearly learning MUCH to fastly. Now the complacent gamers like myself will get a much needed reason to cancel an account. If I only play occasionally, and if I die in an invasion, I just got ass raped for probably a year to regain my abilities, because I DON"T PLAY OFTEN.

Way to reward the customers!

[Sean]

I prefer the death sting. DR points are just a pain in the ass. And assuming I'm reading it correctly if you're smart and have deeds the max HP and Mana loss is what? 5 total? Assuming you die 5 times?

What I don't like is the chrism gems. As a cleric the number of people asking for these gems will probably be high. But whatever I don't raise for the most part so it wont effect me too much.

[Edited on 3-17-2004 by Tijay]

[Edaarin]

Nope, the cap looks to be 25% of your totals that level. What the 5 means I guess is that you never lose more than 6 per death (1+1 per level).

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Tijay
I prefer the death sting. DR points are just a pain in the ass. And assuming I'm reading it correctly if you're smart and have deeds the max HP and Mana loss is what? 5 total? Assuming you die 5 times?

What I don't like is the chrism gems. As a cleric the number of people asking for these gems will probably be high. But whatever I don't raise for the most part so it wont effect me too much.

[Edited on 3-17-2004 by Tijay]

Yes, max is 5 per death.

However, you could have a temporary max of 75% of your normal max.

So if you normally would have 100 health, if you die repeatedly, you may end up at 75 max health (mimimum) till you "recover" the 25% remainder.

That's how I interpreted it.

I don't like it.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Nope, the cap looks to be 25% of your totals that level. What the 5 means I guess is that you never lose more than 6 per death (1+1 per level).

Agreed, you lose 25% of your mana and health and only gain it back at the rate of 1mp/hp per 1k exp? (Assuming you've died (not decayed) w/ deeds 7 times (1+2+3+4+5+5+5), which I'm sure some of you have

So, lets say I have 240 mana and 240 health. I lose 60 mana and 60 health (mana basically negates the fact that I doubled in harness power). It will take me 60k exp to gain it all back?

Ouch.

[Edaarin]

How about we go back to the old system and just get rid of going demonic and replacing it with a 20k exp penalty?

[J-Tech]

Uhhhh, i don't like the idea of losing levels thats for sure....

...aslo, i do about 9-12k exp per day from work. :)

J.T.

[Edited on 3-17-2004 by J-Tech]

[Sean]

I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Tijay
I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.

Yeah, those suck. Especially when you're the one that kills the Illoke and it falls on a hunting partner.

[Atlanteax]

Okay, I voted for Option #2

1) Won't suffer EXP "losses" as planned with DPs (Option 1)
2) Ability to restore max health/mana to their true max via IG methods costing silvers (this will mitigate problematic instances were temporary maxs are 10%+ lower than true maxs)
3) 15 minutes for a full recovery, should be able to hunt normally after 8 minutes (IMO) after spelling up and everything, and then gradually return to full strength some 7 minutes into hunting.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Okay, I voted for Option #2

2) Ability to restore max health/mana to their true max via IG methods costing silvers (this will mitigate problematic instances were temporary maxs are 10%+ lower than true maxs)


Costing silvers. This will still be killer on younger characters (10-20ish). Because I bet it won't be cheap. I wouldn't agree with this plan unless they lay down the cost right now and it was halfway decent.

:::edited to put in the close quote:::

[Edited on 3-17-2004 by Wezas]

[TheEschaton]

40 minutes to recover, versus never having to pay another fucking tribute to that whore Lorminstra?

I'll take it.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

The paying silvers to get the stats back sounds like what they did in DAOC. The amount would increase with level and it started off at a rather decent amount, but the more you died, the more expensive it got.

I'd rather have option #2. I really can't stand regaining experience. That drives me nuts.

[Pallon]

Unless the cost to regain health and mana is crazy cheap (it won't be) I like DR points better. At least I can hunt with DR points, if I lose enough mana I'm pretty much fucked.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tijay
I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.

:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Tijay
I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.
Howzabout making it harder to die by not overhunting as much and not hunting in really tough areas? if you die too often from those stone hands --- DON'T HUNT ILLOKE.

everyone who hunts there dies easily from stone hand rogue and cleric alike.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by The Edine
everyone who hunts there dies easily from stone hand rogue and cleric alike.

Edine speaks from experience :lol:

[Kitsun]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Originally posted by Tijay
I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.
Howzabout making it harder to die by not overhunting as much and not hunting in really tough areas? if you die too often from those stone hands --- DON'T HUNT ILLOKE.

I tried hunting there two bloody times right when the shift to IV happened. Both hunts ended in about 30 seconds to entry as I walked into a room and the FE displayed the skull before I saw on screen what got me. The maneuver wasn't tweaked so I bolted from there like a bat out of hell. Never looked back.

I understand what you're saying. But that ONE maneuver is shit. No challenge to it. No tactic to avoid it. You walk into it and die.

[Methais]

I like Death's Sting except for the mana part with capped characters. It was stated on the official boards that once a capped character reaches the 5 deaths per level, they're stuck with the health/mana loss permanently.

Hopefully that was just an oversight and they'll change it, but until then my vote goes to DR points.

Also I think the recovery part should be less...like 1 point per 100 exp, or at least no more than 500.

[Edited on 3-18-2004 by Methais]

Sting sounds good till the part on worst case scenerio about you only being at 25% of your capabilities!

It would take you nearly a level to gain back all your HPs and or MP!

Insanity!

Atleast with Death Recovery its only an hour set back each time you die.

You get blasted 5 times in an invasion, you are set back more than 5 hours with Death Sting...

[Chadj]

Deaths sting. That way, when I kill someone a lot bigger than me, I will have time to get ready and run!:D:D:D

[Trinitis]

Honestly, the DR points don't bother me all that much. You don't "loose" exp. You just don't gain as fast..darn.

Its not like I power level. Heh

Both systems have their ups and downs. And it all depends what level you are and where you hunt...

For Kneo, DR points wouldn't be a problem I don't think, other than during invasions when I do chance everything, as well as most others. And I always carry deeds.

But the Sting system would completely take me out of an invasion or a having a real bad day... I would feel forced to script in game to recover my loss in stats and such.

Now for my wizard, DR seems to be nothing, dying in normal hunting only happens when I am not paying attention. And I have yet to get him into an invasion yet.

The Sting would destroy me seeing it takes nearly 30 minutes to spell up and recover...

But now its gonna take me X amount of minutes to recover my STATS and Mana... On top of spelling up...

[Latrinsorm]

<<they're stuck with the health/mana loss permanently.>>

To hell with that. I guess they never want anyone to reach the skill cap or something, but that would suck so hard. :thumbsdown:

[Shalla]

Originally posted by Tijay
I still think if your gonna add a sting to death you have to make it harder to die. That means taking away bullshit things like Illoke stone hand.

Yeah.. I hate that so much. and Uhm Spikethorn too.

[Methais]

And roa'ters, and GM run NPCs with a 572809527452702 AS that are immune to all laws and constables.

[Edited on 3-18-2004 by Methais]

[Mistomeer]

I don't have a problem with death having more sting, but the ways in which players die these days is just dumb. I'd much rather see breakage and droppage than some stat penalty. At least then items would be more fluid and in theory, prices would drop.

[Sean]

Stone Giant - 58
Stone Mastiff - 62
Illoke Mystic - 62
Tijay - 64
Illoke Shaman - 67


DAMN ME AND MY MASSIVE OVERHUNTING.

[Zeyrin]

It seems to me that in-character I get deeds for Lorminstra's favor, not penalty. I fail to understand why I will get a penalty for dieing when I had previously bought deeds for favor. Adding points to train off is just bullshit. It's Simu's way of saying 'We're gonna ass rape you for (insert your monthly premium{s}) for the next 15 years until you cap.'

If you don't have deeds and you die, by all means, slap on all the points you want but for crying out loud people, quit making it so fucking difficult to make level here. If you decay without deeds, then decrease the abilities and jack up a shitload of death points to run off because if you're too ignorant to keep your deeds up. You should have to run off tons of exp points to remind you how stupid it is not to have deeds.

WTF is the point of making everyone hunt well under their train? It takes an assload of Sundays to train anyway, why in the hell does Simu continually try to fuck its customers? Way to create a nurturing enviroment for character growth guys and gals!!!

I could stick to raising to gain all of my exp points but that gets boring as hell after a while. I don't accept tips and I hunt to compensate for this. So, when I hunt well under my train just for gems, it's going to affect those who are hunting there to gain exp because I'm slaughtering their exp points for coin and gems.

Simu is either gonna force me to underhunt for gems or start accepting tips. It will probably force me to accept tips, something I swore I would not do, when I feel like my coin flow isn't what it should be. I mean hells bells, shit is expensive enough in game. If someone doesn't tip me for my services, when I see them die, fuck 'em!! They didn't tip me last time, why should I bother raising them? You see my point? I wouldn't do that but I'm sure there are those out there who would.

Doesn't Simu have enough vision to see that there's more to Death Recovery or Death's Sting than just exp points? It's called the ripple effect, check into it. I have never seen a game that discourages character advancement like this.

I am not voting for either Death Recovery or Death's Sting. Both are total bullshit. I encourage everyone who agrees with me to cancel their accounts until Simu's cash flow becomes a problem just like it will become for me in game and they are forced to make changes. It's the only way these people will understand we're tired of eating their greedy bullshit.

[Sean]

I'm with spartacus! Oh wait I do enjoy playing gemstone thats why I continue to play. That portion about canceling aside I did agree agree with a few of your points. Especially those about everyone underhunting to avoid penalities.

[Pallon]

The red-eyed battle minotaur stomps its hooves in the dirt and lowers its head.
The red-eyed battle minotaur charges in your direction. You leap to the side as minotaur slams into you.
... 35 points of damage!
Massive blow to your neck snaps it!

Deaths this level: 4

If I lost 5 mana for that, I would be pissed

[Zeyrin]

I do enjoy playing Gemstone as well but I can't stand it when someone feeds me bullshit and tells me is prime rib either.

[Sean]

I don't think Simu is trying to package DR or DS as something thats good or to be considered "prime rib" but something that a portion of the player base has campaigned for and that they think will slow down level advancement and make the game easier for them to manage.

I personally still stand on the thinking that if you are going to punish me for dying don't punish me for dying in ways I had no serious control over IE: manuvers. If I'm a bad hunter or do something stupid to die like swap my weapons or hunt without my spells or armor etc. sure punish away. But if I walk into a room with a critter that has prepped boil for example and someone rang away causing me to get slammed. Or if I walk into a room where a roa'ter has burrowed and it springs up and hits me right as I walk in. Or if I walk into a room and get stone fisted without a chance to defend myself etc. I DO NOT think I should be punished. None of these things punish my character, they punish me as a player for things beyond my control.

[Zeyrin]

I agree with you 100% on the whole dieing thing, Tijay. Stone fists hit me for like 50-70 damage but crits me to death. I still have about 100 health points left but I'm dead as a doornail. I too have been boiled just for walking into room. I would have fogged out but an Illoke shaman fell on me breaking my arm to the point I can't cast. While I'm on the ground, stunned from being boiled, I get a stone fist to the head and I'm dead. I can hunt the stronghold fairly well. It's just the crits that kill me 95% of the time.

As far as slowing down and managing character advancement, after one hit's Lord status and gets older, the time it takes to gain levels increases steeply. It takes me about 95k per level now. I'm not going to run off 95k in a week unless I script hunt, which I will not do.

This is a game. I like advancing in a game not being hindered because some schmo gets a Lord's title in 2 weeks or so. That's not my problem but Simu is forcing the problem on me. I still fail to see what the point of putting a penalty on dieing when I pay out the ass for deeds. That's my biggest beef.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Tijay
Or if I walk into a room and get stone fisted without a chance to defend myself etc.

Just so you know, they get kinda uppity on the official boards if you refer to that as being "fisted."

[Praefection]

I'm still iffy either way. But since I've been using my sorceress more I'd be seriously pissed if I had to wait 40 mins to regain my mana, and respell up, etc. With the DR points I can still hunt and earn the needed exp at the same time. With my rogue I wouldn't mind the loss of stats and so forth AS much because there are other ways to waste time and gain exp without hunting. IE:picking which she does. I think a bit of tweaking is needed on both ideas to get to a happy medium the majority of the paying clients can deal with.

[Wezas]

Also, if you're someone who has quite a few enemies, the Death's Sting will totally suck for you. Not only are people killing you, but your stats will be temporarily lower and you'll be missing 25% of your mana/hp - more difficult to fight back.

[StrayRogue]

One is realistic, one isn't. Whether or not hunting with 1000 DR will be slower than hunting with lowered stats, its still more realistic in the sense than you couldn't just get back up and go back into the fray. I hope they go with sting.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
One is realistic, one isn't. Whether or not hunting with 1000 DR will be slower than hunting with lowered stats, its still more realistic in the sense than you couldn't just get back up and go back into the fray. I hope they go with sting.

I see where you're coming from with the lowered stats part. That I don't have a problem with - people should wait before they run back out.

What I see as the problem with Death's Sting is the 25% reduction in your mana/health that only comes back at a rate of 1mp/hp per 1k exp. I don't plan on dying 7 times per level, but it's been known to happen. And to gain back 25% of my mana would take about 60k exp (which will be difficult to earn with my limited mana resources).

[StrayRogue]

I think 25% will be a peak seldom reached even by the stupid hunters. If you've got 100 mana, you'd need to die 25 times (if you are ressurected) before the cap was reached. While it may be taunting, I don't think it will effect people too much, especially not pures. The semis, those without mana sharing capabilities, will be hurt, in my opinion.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I think 25% will be a peak seldom reached even by the stupid hunters. If you've got 100 mana, you'd need to die 25 times (if you are ressurected) before the cap was reached.

I was under the impression that if you've got 100 mana, you'd need to die 7 (1+2+3+4+5+5+5) times (during a level) to reach the 25%. That being the best case scenario of you dying with deeds and not decaying, if you were to decay with deeds 5 times in a level that would also reach the 25%. If I've read it wrong, please let me know as it may change my opinion.


Types of Death Temporary Max Health & Mana Reduction
Death with Deeds and Ressurection 1 per death that level


The modifier for deaths that level will be capped at 5; even if a character has a chronic death problem, the character will not lose more than 5 max health/mana for a normal death with resurrection. The cumulative maximum reduction will be capped at 25% of the character's total, so a character should never get to the point where it is not possible to function. These points will be recouped at a rate of 1 point per 1000 exp gained.

[StrayRogue]

Yeah it is does stack like that. However, you are envisioning the worst case scenario of dying 7 times in a row. You'll most likely be learning in between those deaths unless something erstwhile happens. If you die less than once every 5K experience, the most you'll see as a penalty is -5 HP and -5 Mana (assuming you get raised, it would be 7K experience and -7/-7 if you decay (or is it 6, I don't quite remember).

[Wezas]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Yeah it is does stack like that. However, you are envisioning the worst case scenario of dying 7 times in a row. You'll most likely be learning in between those deaths unless something erstwhile happens. If you die less than once every 5K experience, the most you'll see as a penalty is -5 HP and -5 Mana (assuming you get raised, it would be 7K experience and -7/-7 if you decay (or is it 6, I don't quite remember).

True, I'm all about the worst case scenario. I can die easily 3 times in a row. Personally I'd like to see something in between like Death's Touch (especially the -40% stats for 10-40 minutes), but only if they lessen the longer term penalties or word it in such a way to not make it sound as scary.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Zeyrin
This is a game. I like advancing in a game not being hindered because some schmo gets a Lord's title in 2 weeks or so. That's not my problem but Simu is forcing the problem on me. I still fail to see what the point of putting a penalty on dieing when I pay out the ass for deeds. That's my biggest beef.
Yeah, lots of players want advancement for the OTHER guy frozen, as long as they get to keep on leveling twice a week.

[Edaarin]

An Illoke shaman calls forth the wrath of his god as he points at you!
A massive stone hand appears in the air before you!
The huge grey fist wraps around you before you can move to avoid it! The massive hand clasps you tightly in a crushing grip, and your brain seems to scream as you feel your bones snapping!

... 50 points of damage!
Massive blow to your back separates the vertebrae!
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 8 rounds!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow to your left eye sending bone back into your brain!

Since when does it hit twice?

[Latrinsorm]

Maybe you fell on your eye. Maybe it's a ridonkulously overpowered maneuver.

[Methais]

I dunno but I bet you the player version of Stone Fist that's coming out will only be a fraction as good as the Illoke version.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Methais
I dunno but I bet you the player version of Stone Fist that's coming out will only be a fraction as good as the Illoke version.

Does it matter? Wizards will now have the ability to fist someone to death thus making it all worth it. :cool:

[Methais]

[Voln : Anticor] good evening everyone, huge FISTS to all my super kids & grandkids & great grandkids!

[Shalla]

I would just like to say that Death sting sucks. I hate it I hate it I hate it!

and How many of you have jumped off the lover's leap at Teras and got distracted to do something else and died?

[Nieninque]

I dont think its all that bad.
For me it means that when I die, I have time to put up 4 hours of all my spells rather than just a couple of casts of each and go straight back out to hunt. :shrug: