Why I am mad about Haiti

[Parker]

Okay, I know I'm going to seem like a complete douchebag, in saying this, but I'm going to say it anyways.

Earthquake strikes Haiti, half of an overpopulated, underdeveloped island.

I just saw three clips on FOX News, with Haitians very vehement and angry, DEMANDING that we send them aid, that we're not moving fast enough, etc. etc.

Where the hell does someone get off demanding help from somewhere else?

Katrina hits New Orleans, I didn't see Haiti stepping up to save anyone. Or send any aid. We weren't in the streets screaming for Japan to come save our bacon.

Sorry. I know it's a horrible thing what happened. I never want to see harm come to anyone, but if bad things happen to you, don't scream for someone completely unrelated--and unobligated, to come help you, then complain at the speed they do it.

It's like stepping into an emergency room that's stuffed with people, and start demanding that they help you sooner. I know people do it. They are assholes too.

[4a6c1]

This thread makes me sad.

I love Haiti. Dont hate on Haiti! They are an awesome people and deserve better from us anyway.

I'm not sure they could have done much to help us during Katrina. The poverty there is overwelming to say the least. And the government is corrupt. Despite that as individuals they are a warm, devoted people (with amazing amazing cooking skillz) who have a despite-all-odds national pride. The women are strong pillars of strength for the family units. The men are hard working. They really remind me of Americans in their way of thinking. If America was in a constant depressive state. :-/

I think their proximity to us in comparison to what they have to offer and their advanced system of values demands that we help them in every way we can. By personal donation and individual volunteerism. And maybe one of Obamas super awesome bank (read:Haiti) bailout plans.

[Revalos]

I just saw three clips on FOX News, with Haitians very vehement and angry, DEMANDING that we send them aid, that we're not moving fast enough, etc. etc.

Cue Adam and Jamie from Mythbusters saying, "well, there's your problem."

Seriously, get your news from more than one source, dude. Watch Fox, BBC, CNN, MSNBC, Al-Jazeera, PBS, Wikipedia, and your local news, don't just focus on one, you'll get spun to their version of the message, not what is actually happening.

While there are probably Hatians who expect aid from wealthy and prosperous countries and even ones who want to profit off of this disaster, but there are a hell of a lot more who are dieing of lack of water, food, and medicine normally EVEN WITHOUT AN EARTHQUAKE. If your son/daughter/wife/parents were dieing wouldn't you demand help? Or would you be bigger than that and just try to muddle along yourself?

Oh yeah, and Haiti did actually send aid to the US after Katrina. We refused it because we are dicks, but they did try to send what they could. Several countries we had helped in the past offered to help then.

[Parker]

Don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no prejudice against Haiti as a country.

I am profoundly upset that anywhere in the world, people are dying for any reason.

However, chastising the helping hand for not helping 'fast enough', when the entire world is currently aware of our own financial woes, seems a bit over the top.

And Revalon, I don't want to be a cock about this, but there are people starving in our own back yard, dying of thirst, and dying of perfectly treatable diseases, even without an earthquake. I have to have a certain amount of "Us before Them" in this case.

I recently finished living in my car for 8 months, and I never once reached out a begging hand for help. On the two (2) occasions that someone offered me help, I never asked them to hurry, or told them it wasn't enough. Even when one of them rescinded the offer later, I wasn't upset or angry. I can't imagine berating someone for not offering charity, or offering it fast enough.

ETA: And I watch a lot of different news sources. That just happened to be where I saw those particular clips.

[Kithus]

I can't say it enough:

Not my country, not my problem.

The Haitian government should be cleaning up their own mess. Our tax dollars should not be going to the relief of another country when our country is in debt. Let the charities handle it, all their contributions are tax deductable and they don't pay taxes of their own so essentially we're already paying for charity whether we like it or not.

[Parker]

It's not that I don't think we should send help. I have sent numerous emails to various organisations looking for one that will take me to Haiti and let me aid with experience as an EMT and volunteer firefighter.

I want to help. I don't want to be screamed at that I'm not doing enough. If I had money that I could spare without starving, myself, I'd offer that.

[Parkbandit]

I can't say it enough:

Not my country, not my problem.

The Haitian government should be cleaning up their own mess. Our tax dollars should not be going to the relief of another country when our country is in debt. Let the charities handle it, all their contributions are tax deductable and they don't pay taxes of their own so essentially we're already paying for charity whether we like it or not.

Because isolationism has worked so well in the past...........

[Kithus]

Because isolationism has worked so well in the past...........

We can be a global participant without throwing our money at everyone else's problems.

[kookiegod]

We can be a global participant without throwing our money at everyone else's problems.

I gotta agree here.

We, as a country, borrow money from China and other countries to fund our deficit.

We then turn around and LOAN out this money as foreign aid all over the world, knowing the majority of it will never be paid back.

Yet the taxpayer is paying for the interest on this national debt, and getting nothing for it.

Sorry, there is a disconnect there.

If we had a budget surplus and wanted to give foreign aid, great, but when our own country has a staggering debt, 10 percent unemployment, our own homeless and hungry, shouldn't we deal with our own issues first.

P.S. I donated 100 bucks to the Haitian relief effort today.

~Paul

[Stanley Burrell]

I dunno, spending too much money on our own well-being sounds a little bit too reminiscent of Obama's dirty Communist agenda.

And so three guys on FOX (the news agency doesn't matter) were venting their frustrations because 100,000 of their people died -- Yep, that's about the most selfish thing I've ever heard of.

As for what the Haitians could have possibly done for us in a disaster like Katrina, I'd be more O.K. without the Dengue fever and Cholera.

[Beguiler]

I gotta agree here... I donated ...

Ditto to both. If you have the resources to contribute to relief efforts, by all means donate. Regularly support those charities that provide local or global assistance in emergency conditions. Volunteerism is a wonderful thing, as is a generous heart and open handedness for others in need.

But charity starts at home.

[Allereli]

Helping Haiti is a political necessity because of the large Haitian immigrant population (i.e. Florida). I bet half the people who clean your office come from Haiti. Haiti is situated very close to us, and we would look like, and would be, completely selfish assholes for turning our backs on our neighbors.

[sst]

Helping Haiti is a political necessity because of the large Haitian immigrant population (i.e. Florida). I bet half the people who clean your office come from Haiti. Haiti is situated very close to us, and we would look like, and would be, completely selfish assholes for turning our backs on our neighbors.

I 2nd this entire post.

Also take into account that there are Americans there who deserve the support and assistance from their government considering the situation.

[Ker_Thwap]

Haiti is such a freaking mess to start with, they should probably just apply to be a protectorate/territory of the U.S. or hell, really any country at all.

I switched back and forth between CNN and Fox.

Both of them predictably created catchy headline phrases like "Horror in Haiti."

One CNN anchorwoman kept talking over the interviewees. You know, because her opinions and leading questions were more important than getting the actual story of what was happening and what was needed.

I forget which network had the doctor roaming around, but I wanted to stab him in the head for chatting in front of a camera instead of rolling up his sleeves and working. Oh, a cute little baby, let's treat this one for the photo op.

I'm rambling, I really have nothing to say.

[Parker]

And so three guys on FOX (the news agency doesn't matter) were venting their frustrations because 100,000 of their people died -- Yep, that's about the most selfish thing I've ever heard of.

They weren't venting frustrations. They were saying that we were obligated to help them, and we weren't doing it fast enough.


Venting frustrations is "Why has god forsaken us?" "Why did this happen to me?" "I hate the world!"

Not "You're not giving me enough money! You aren't moving fast enough for my liking!"


Helping Haiti is a political necessity because of the large Haitian immigrant population (i.e. Florida). I bet half the people who clean your office come from Haiti. Haiti is situated very close to us, and we would look like, and would be, completely selfish assholes for turning our backs on our neighbors.

This is completely backwards.

If my house burns down, I don't scream at my neighbors because they didn't rush over to bring me a new house.

[Stanley Burrell]

They weren't venting frustrations. They were saying that we were obligated to help them, and we weren't doing it fast enough.


Venting frustrations is "Why has god forsaken us?" "Why did this happen to me?" "I hate the world!"

Not "You're not giving me enough money! You aren't moving fast enough for my liking!"

Oh, okay. I'm glad you have a really clear definition on what venting frustration is.

[Nieninque]

Okay, I know I'm going to seem like a complete douchebag, in saying this, but I'm going to say it anyways.

Earthquake strikes Haiti, half of an overpopulated, underdeveloped island.

I just saw three clips on FOX News, with Haitians very vehement and angry, DEMANDING that we send them aid, that we're not moving fast enough, etc. etc.

Where the hell does someone get off demanding help from somewhere else?

Katrina hits New Orleans, I didn't see Haiti stepping up to save anyone. Or send any aid. We weren't in the streets screaming for Japan to come save our bacon.

Sorry. I know it's a horrible thing what happened. I never want to see harm come to anyone, but if bad things happen to you, don't scream for someone completely unrelated--and unobligated, to come help you, then complain at the speed they do it.

It's like stepping into an emergency room that's stuffed with people, and start demanding that they help you sooner. I know people do it. They are assholes too.

They are dying, you stupid cunt.
What do you expect them to do? Form a line and wait patiently?

[DCSL]

Haiti is such a freaking mess to start with, they should probably just apply to be a protectorate/territory of the U.S. or hell, really any country at all.


Just as an aside that has nothing to do with anything, this made me laaaauuugh. Haitians would rather die. I mean, look what they did to the French.

[Archigeek]

When your daughter is dying of thirst, (and I don't mean that figuratively), you're injured, and haven't slept in two days, you might just get a little testy about the subject of some clean water for her. I think that's pretty understandable even if it is a bit rude. Sure, it might take a person aback, but the situation there is not the same as here in the US, where you can get help if you want help. In Haiti, you can watch people you love starve and be unable to do anything about it other than try to dig some canned food out of the rubble. There aren't many people alive who wouldn't steal for their dying daughter if that's what it took.

It will get better there, as aid arrives, but the devastation is by and large complete. The guy in charge of the World Food Program put it this way, "they haven't invented a word for what's happened in Haiti".

As for whether or not we, the people of the United States, should help and if our tax dollars are well spent there; The Monroe Doctrine has served us very well, and I think there's no reason to abandon it now. Weak neighbors who are in a state of crisis are not in our best interest as a country. That doesn't mean we need to be the world police in every corner of the globe, but Haiti is not in some corner of the globe, it's in our backyard and they are our neighbors.

As a side note, a friend of a close friend of mine died in the quake. His wife and cousin made it out of their home as it collapsed while he did not. Dead at the too early age of 26. May he rest in peace.

[Parker]

Oh, okay. I'm glad you have a really clear definition on what venting frustration is.

Examples, not a definition. I can get that for you if you like though.

Nien; There are people dying no more than 10 miles from your home. I promise you. You're not calling people a cunt for not doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them.

[Parker]

Again. I'm not saying we shouldn't help. I'm not saying that I, personally, don't want to help.

The reputation we've built for ourselves, that we'll help anyone, at any time, who screams loudly enough....is bad.

[Celephais]

Parker, what do you think makes for better ratings? A person bitching and moaning about how the US isn't helping them, or the majority of people who are taking it in stride and genuinely thankful for the help?

[Nieninque]

Examples, not a definition. I can get that for you if you like though.

Nien; There are people dying no more than 10 miles from your home. I promise you. You're not calling people a cunt for not doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them.

I'm not calling you a cunt for not doling out hundreds of dollars to help the Haitians, I'm calling you a cunt because you are upset that they are dying, frantic and demanding help.

That, and the fact that you are cunt.

[Androidpk]

10 percent unemployment

I wish it were only 10%.

[Parker]

I'm not calling you a cunt for not doling out hundreds of dollars to help the Haitians, I'm calling you a cunt because you are upset that they are dying, frantic and demanding help.

That, and the fact that you are cunt.

Then I suppose you've never been upset at the man on the corner begging for your change. Or one who washes your window in the hope that his pathetic state of life and the guilt might cause you to give him enough money to get a loaf of bread to feed himself.

Oh. And you're also a cunt.

[Parker]

Parker, what do you think makes for better ratings? A person bitching and moaning about how the US isn't helping them, or the majority of people who are taking it in stride and genuinely thankful for the help?

And fair point.

It inflamed my aggravation for a few minutes. At this point, it's just become a debate. I'm not terribly angry about anything at all, except that forging takes FOREVER.

[Stanley Burrell]

Examples, not a definition. I can get that for you if you like though.

If you lived in Haiti, right now, and happened to be a handful of people demanding foreign aid, you would be venting frustration. This isn't an investment scam for the Haitians -- While what you've seen on the news might not strike you as the most polite thing a modern-day Haitian might say ona broadcasting network, it's A) Colored as fuck since you're gathering this from a single news snippet & B) Stupid as hell because even if, right now, four or five Haitians cried "DEATH TO AMERICA!!!!11one" it wouldn't bespeak the overall dire necessity for relief to flow to that nation right now.


Nien; There are people dying no more than 10 miles from your home. I promise you. You're not calling people a cunt for not doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them.

Nien also happens to live in a first world country that, coincidentally, is not the most impoverished nation in the Western world. Apples and oranges.

[EasternBrand]

Examples, not a definition. I can get that for you if you like though.

Nien; There are people dying no more than 10 miles from your home. I promise you. You're not calling people a cunt for not doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them.

You keep comparing Haiti's situation to you and your neighbors, but it couldn't be more dissimilar. Go and take a look at some of the satellite photos. The difference is that the homeless and disadvantaged around us can, if they are hours away of dying on the street from thirst, take advantage of infrastructure designed at least to keep them alive. The devastation of what little infrastructure there was in Haiti is almost wholly complete. They can't help themselves right now, and neither can their neighbors down the block.

Your attempt to help out in the ways that you are able is commendable, but you need a little perspective. The survivors there have seen thousands of their neighbors' bodies out on the streets. It might be a little too soon to berate them for ingratitude.

[Atlanteax]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

[Kithus]

You keep comparing Haiti's situation to you and your neighbors, but it couldn't be more dissimilar. Go and take a look at some of the satellite photos. The difference is that the homeless and disadvantaged around us can, if they are hours away of dying on the street from thirst, take advantage of infrastructure designed at least to keep them alive. The devastation of what little infrastructure there was in Haiti is almost wholly complete. They can't help themselves right now, and neither can their neighbors down the block.


So it automatically becomes the job of our government to provide them with aid? Every penny of taxpayer money that is spent in Haiti, while our country is deeply in debt, is helping to rob future generations of Americans of financial stability. If you feel for the Haitian people and believe they deserve aid then, by all means, give to charities that will help them. Our tax dollars shouldn't be spent on charities.

[Stanley Burrell]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

To me, PR relations with sending aid to Haitians in need would help the global community hold our country in higher regards than bombing the fuck out of Iraq.

This is my opinion, much like,


There is no reason why the US is obliged to help

Is also an opinion.

[Cephalopod]

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic, facetious or sincere...

[Archigeek]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

I don't quite get how you see a country on our doorstep as "out of sight". Not every decision we make is or should be made entirely on the basis of what's in it for us.

[Parker]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

There's nothing in Iraq that we truly need, honestly.

I can't disagree more with us having ANY influence there at all. Blow up their ability to generate weapons that could be used against us? Yes. Especially since they defied the agreements that we had with them.

Feel obligated to clean up after we're done causing things to explode? No. Pick a fight, and clean up your own bloody nose.

Build an entire country where 1% of the people control the majority of the money, and everyone else lives in poverty, or near poverty (Oh ho! look out, US!), and expect that you can solve your own problems. If an earthquake strikes the entirety of the US, you can expect that I will not be screaming at any other country to help me.

[Fallen]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

We would become completely bereft of ANY moral high ground for not lending aid to Haiti. We would literally lose all credibility with the rest of the civilized world for not doing everything in our power within reason to aid them. It would basically go against everything that America is commonly stated by our government to stand for to not aid those people.

Exactly what our government SHOULD state we stand for in terms of our principles/morals/ethics is a different debate entirely. Do I personally believe we SHOULD spend hundreds of millions to aid people in a situation such as Haiti? I have to go with "yes". There isn't too much in this world that lends itself to the quality of the human race, but the outpouring of aid from all corners of the globe in situations such as this is one of them.

[Parker]

Fallen: Through what I've seen/read/heard so far about this, I can see no other countries offering nearly as much aid to Haiti as we are.

There are SOME efforts, yes, but nothing even close to the amount of money and effort we're putting into it, currently.

That said, how do we lose the moral high ground by not helping, when only the faintest of efforts are coming from other countries?

How about Mexico? Canada? Japan? France? Spain?

Where's the aid from them?

[Sweets]

Next time terror attacks the US, I hope Parker is dead center and survives to witness the horror around him. One great big plane in his neighborhood.

It's easy to preach from a pulpit where you're safe, fed and free from devastation.

Oh, and stop watching Fox for 'facts'. You might as well be watching entertainment tonight.

[Sweets]

Fallen: Through what I've seen/read/heard so far about this, I can see no other countries offering nearly as much aid to Haiti as we are.

There are SOME efforts, yes, but nothing even close to the amount of money and effort we're putting into it, currently.

That said, how do we lose the moral high ground by not helping, when only the faintest of efforts are coming from other countries?

How about Mexico? Canada? Japan? France? Spain?

Where's the aid from them?

Jesus, get you're head out of your ass. Canada's governor general is from Haiti. Our asses were in gear the moment we heard.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-rushes-aid-to-haiti/article1430385/

[Parker]

Next time terror attacks the US, I hope Parker is dead center and survives to witness the horror around him. One great big plane in his neighborhood.

It's easy to preach from a pulpit where you're safe, fed and free from devastation.

Oh, and stop watching Fox for 'facts'. You might as well be watching entertainment tonight.

I was in New York City working on the rescue efforts eight hours after the towers came down. I lost two childhood friends when they came down.

I'm not speaking from a pulpit. I've been through rough and crucial times. I didn't scream that people weren't helping me fast enough.

[Ker_Thwap]

I'd like to see any large dollar U.S. taxpayer funded effort come with some serious strings attached.

Not as any kind of manifest destiny program, but throwing money into a situation without any infrastructure is a recipe for more warlords, dictatorship and long term failure and misery.

It's the whole "teach a man to fish" thing.

[Fallen]

Fallen: Through what I've seen/read/heard so far about this, I can see no other countries offering nearly as much aid to Haiti as we are.

There are SOME efforts, yes, but nothing even close to the amount of money and effort we're putting into it, currently.

That said, how do we lose the moral high ground by not helping, when only the faintest of efforts are coming from other countries?

How about Mexico? Canada? Japan? France? Spain?

Where's the aid from them?

I'm no expert on this stuff, but as others have mentioned, we have a policy which states pretty flat-out that we WILL do exactly what we are doing now for Haiti, along with the rest of that region. The Monroe Doctrine basically states that this is OUR turf. Other people will back off in terms of colonizing, and making major economic deals in this region, and in exchange, we will take care of any disputes and crisises(sp) that arise. I will try to pull up something more concrete in a bit.

[Sweets]

I was in New York City working on the rescue efforts eight hours after the towers came down. I lost two childhood friends when they came down.

I'm not speaking from a pulpit. I've been through rough and crucial times. I didn't scream that people weren't helping me fast enough.

This just makes your stance even more the sadder. You've been there and still can't wrap your head around it. Some people are upset and angry and Fox catches them for a great news shot and you buy in. I'm truly sorry for your loss and even sorrier for your attitude in light of it.

[Fallen]

The "Roosevelt Corollary"
Main article: Roosevelt Corollary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary)
As the United States emerged as a world superpower, the Monroe Doctrine came to define a recognized sphere of control that few dared to challenge.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-Brit1-5) In 1904, U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt), added the Roosevelt Corollary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary) to the Monroe Doctrine, which asserted the right of the United States to intervene in Latin America in cases of “flagrant and chronic wrongdoing by a Latin American Nation”[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-res3-4). This was the most significant amendment to the original doctrine and was widely opposed by critics, who argued that the Monroe Doctrine was originally meant to stop European influence in the Western Hemisphere[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-Brit1-5). This amendment was designed to preclude violation of the doctrine by European powers that would ultimately argue that the independent nations were “mismanaged or unruly”.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-Brit1-5)
Critics[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)], however, argued that the Corollary simply asserted U.S. domination in that area, essentially making them a "hemispheric policeman[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-16)To this day, it is hard to argue that the Western Hemisphere is not entirely a United States sphere of influence.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine#cite_note-Brit1-5)

Basically, we've claimed dominion over that entire region. That dominance comes with responsibilities.

[Parker]

Jesus, get you're head out of your ass. Canada's governor general is from Haiti. Our asses were in gear the moment we heard.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-rushes-aid-to-haiti/article1430385/

The prior post was removed because I failed to verify that Canada's changed it's current policy, as summarized below. Good on them!

(Had to edit, Nachos DLC found a resource that I was looking for, but wasn't apparently typing the right words to find. It's not nearly as skewed as I originally thought, most likely due to the age of the article.)

[Cephalopod]

Fallen: Through what I've seen/read/heard so far about this, I can see no other countries offering nearly as much aid to Haiti as we are.

There are SOME efforts, yes, but nothing even close to the amount of money and effort we're putting into it, currently.


I guess the fact that the international community mobilized within hours to get help there doesn't really count. How about the offers of monetary support now that we're a few days in (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_to_the_2010_Haiti_earthquake)?

Ignoring the personnel and equipment, here's a snapshot of humanitarian aid that has been pledged by some random countries:
Canada - $100m
Brazil - $15m
UK - $10m
Sweden - $900k
United States - $100m

We can compare this to the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami, where the US aid initially started out as a fraction of what some other countries (Australia, Germany, France, even Finland) put up. Our response to Haiti needs to be the largest because they are in our back yard, and we have an obligation to help as humans and, as has been pointed out, because of the Monroe Doctrine.

Did you know that Mexico donated aid to the US during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Did you know that Haiti did, too, with their meager resources?

[Sweets]

The US has greater resources, yes. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you Parker. You're dick will always be bigger. I'm just saying, other countries are doing what they can as well.

[Parker]

The US has greater resources, yes. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you Parker. You're dick will always be bigger. I'm just saying, other countries are doing what they can as well.

My point is that we really DON'T have greater resources.

Yes, we can send personell and ships, people to help with the effort, but where we're currently pulling the money out of our ass to send things that must be bought, I don't want to think about.

[Shon]

Did you know that Mexico donated aid to the US during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Did you know that Haiti did, too, with their meager resources?

Here's a comprehensive list of how other nations helped (or offered to help) the United States in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

[Sweets]

My point is that we really DON'T have greater resources.

Yes, we can send personell and ships, people to help with the effort, but where we're currently pulling the money out of our ass to send things that must be bought, I don't want to think about.

:club:

[Parker]

From the above list;

Haiti
Helped by sending $50,000, sent aid to Haitian immigrants in the United States and sent their own organizations to rebuild.

I may be reading this wrong, but do they intend to say that they spent $50,000 to help haitian immigrants?

If that IS what they're saying, we'd get cornholed for sending any money that was specifically for american residents of Haiti.

[Parker]

:club:

While my head hurts, I don't think I quite understand the response.

[Cephalopod]

From the above list;

Haiti
Helped by sending $50,000, sent aid to Haitian immigrants in the United States and sent their own organizations to rebuild.

I may be reading this wrong, but do they intend to say that they spent $50,000 to help haitian immigrants?

If that IS what they're saying, we'd get cornholed for sending any money that was specifically for american residents of Haiti.

They pledged $50,000*, as well as sent aid to Haitian immigrants in the United States.

* (It wound up being ~$36k (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/orlandosentinel/access/906798941.html?dids=906798941:906798941&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+05,+2005&author=&pub=Orlando+Sentinel&desc=Impoverished+Haiti+offers+U.S.+$36,000+in+Kat rina+aid&pqatl=google), if IIRC. I'll source it in a bit.)

[Parker]

They pledged $50,000*, as well as sent aid to Haitian immigrants in the United States.

* (It wound up being ~$36k, if IIRC. I'll source it in a bit.)

Clarified, thanks. That's more understandable.

And I by no means expect that, for instance, Canada will hit their pledged cap of $100,000,000. And I don't think the US will hit it's pledged cap, either. I'm not faulting Haiti for sending what they were able to.

My argument, again, is not that we SHOULDN'T send help, but we couldn't manage to get aid to our own STATE when we suffered a disaster, and we've just hit the same length of time, I believe, and they apparently have shut down their major port because there's TOO MUCH stuff on the docks, and they can't clear them fast enough. We have sent aid to a foreign (Albeit close) country faster than we could send aid to one of our contiguous states, and people are complaining.

Again, I'm not angry, the statements just pinged off my teeth a little hard when I heard them.

[Cephalopod]

My argument, again, is not that we SHOULDN'T send help, but we couldn't manage to get aid to our own STATE when we suffered a disaster, and we've just hit the same length of time, I believe, and they apparently have shut down their major port because there's TOO MUCH stuff on the docks, and they can't clear them fast enough.

We can argue this is a fundamental difference between the way our government responded 'pre-Katrina' and 'post-Katrina' to natural disasters, but I think that's missing the point. This is not Hurricane Katrina.

And you know all that 'stuff' at the docks and at the airstrip they can't clear fast enough? Take a look at that list of contributors for Haiti relief. It ain't just us.

Rather than keep arguing the 'WE HAVE PEOPLE HERE AT HOME WHO NEED HELP, LET'S NOT HELP OTHERS!", I'll go ahead and say why I'm mad about Haiti: this has destroyed Port-au-Prince, and the city (and country) will probably not recover. In Haiti, when something falls down, you just leave it there and move on. Months from now, when shelters are set up and people are starting to 'recover', interest in Haiti will fade away and it will become, again, one of the worst places in the world to live. No amount of money shoved into that country is going to fix that, unless something else happens. I have no idea what 'something else' is, but it makes me mad.

[Stanley Burrell]

Comparing the supply chain management of relief efforts involved in the flooding of N. Orleans and the earthquake in Haiti is like saying, "We don't have enough radiation suits to help the Potato Famine."

[Archigeek]

Alright, enough bashing and arguing. Here's something cool and positive. God bless Doctors Without Borders, and whomever tackled the task of creating this:

http://news.discovery.com/tech/creating-hospitals-from-thin-air.html

[Cephalopod]

Comparing the supply chain management of relief efforts involved in the flooding of N. Orleans and the earthquake in Haiti is like saying, "We don't have enough radiation suits to help the Potato Famine."

Man, can you imagine the size of some irradiated potatoes?

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/id/IDDRIpotato_sow.jpg

[Cephalopod]

Alright, enough bashing and arguing. Here's something cool and positive. God bless Doctors Without Borders, and whomever tackled the task of creating this:

http://news.discovery.com/tech/creating-hospitals-from-thin-air.html

Yeah, I heard someone from DWB talking on Maddow two nights ago about these. Pretty awesome.

[4a6c1]

Alright, enough bashing and arguing. Here's something cool and positive. God bless Doctors Without Borders, and whomever tackled the task of creating this:

http://news.discovery.com/tech/creating-hospitals-from-thin-air.html

Awesome link is awesome.

[Parker]

Comparing the supply chain management of relief efforts involved in the flooding of N. Orleans and the earthquake in Haiti is like saying, "We don't have enough radiation suits to help the Potato Famine."

How?

Louisiana had a port available to ship goods to. In no worse shape than Port Au Prince.

We just had the added benefit of roads into Lousiana, as well.

Also, you're right, Archigeek, kudos to inventing something which seems tremendously practical.

[Clove]

Ditto to both. If you have the resources to contribute to relief efforts, by all means donate. Regularly support those charities that provide local or global assistance in emergency conditions. Volunteerism is a wonderful thing, as is a generous heart and open handedness for others in need.

But charity starts at home.Yes and no. The majority of relief efforts should be the responsibility of private charities. However, our own problems aside, we can (and should) still provide public aid if we're intelligent about it. For example it would be about as retarded as lighting-memorial-candles-in-front-of-a-fire-condemned-building if we loaned the Haitian Government or people money- but we do have an Airforce, Coast Guard and Navy that can provide quite a bit of assistance.

[Parker]

Man, can you imagine the size of some irradiated potatoes?

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/id/IDDRIpotato_sow.jpg

If I remember right, there was a study done on potatoes that grew around Chernobyl. They are, in fact, bloody huge.

[Cephalopod]

Something to keep in mind is that a lot (if not all) of the 'pledged money' is in the form of humanitarian aid, not direct cash injections into Haiti.

[Parker]

Something to keep in mind is that a lot (if not all) of the 'pledged money' is in the form of humanitarian aid, not direct cash injections into Haiti.

I assume that a lot of it will be spent on various companies that produce things that can be used in the relief effort (Water purification tablets, food, etc. etc. etc. comes to mind)

[Archigeek]

And while we're way off topic, I decided to lay off commercially produced potatoes for a while after reading The Omnivore's Dilemma. Potatoes produced on many farms in the US are so heavily doused with chemicals as to be about as healthy to eat as irradiated potatoes grown around Chernobyl.

Eventually, I just had to get my dose of french fries. Chemically treated or not, they are one of the greatest foods ever invented.

[Stanley Burrell]

How?

Because they are not geographical doppelgangers in the disasters they suffered, nor are they the same by any geopolitical standard.

I'm done. Donate to DWB.

[Celephais]

Okay, now that we've heard why Parker is mad about the earthquake in Haiti, lets ask the Haitians why they're mad about it.

[Cephalopod]

Okay, now that we've heard why Parker is mad about the earthquake in Haiti, lets ask the Haitians why they're mad about it.

I've heard they're blaming Michael J. Fox for trying to vacation there.

...too soon?

[Parker]

Okay, now that we've heard why Parker is mad about the earthquake in Haiti, lets ask the Haitians why they're mad about it.

I've been hearing about it all day. :(

[Celephais]

I've heard they're blaming Michael J. Fox for trying to vacation there.

...too soon?
haha, never too soon.

I've been hearing about it all day. :(
Weird.

[Sweets]

While my head hurts, I don't think I quite understand the response.

I mean, you're not going to change the way you feel in your heart. Arguing with you over it is a moot point. No one can make you feel compassion. No one can make you feel for a country that was down to begin with and now is devastated. Even in this economic slump, the US is waaaay better off than Haiti on a great day.

[Kithus]

Okay, now that we've heard why Parker is mad about the earthquake in Haiti, lets ask the Haitians why they're mad about it.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/Kithus/OllieHaiti.png

[Parker]

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/Kithus/OllieHaiti.png




L. O. L.

Debate over. Kithus wins.

[Clove]

Comparing the supply chain management of relief efforts involved in the flooding of N. Orleans and the earthquake in Haiti is like saying, "We don't have enough radiation suits to help the Potato Famine."But we don't have enough radiation suits to deal with the potato famine!

[Celephais]

But we don't have enough radiation suits to deal with the potato famine!
whoa whoa whoa... we don't? Fuck it, I'm looting.

[Cephalopod]

whoa whoa whoa... we don't? Fuck it, I'm looting.

This guy has your back:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Quayle.jpg/250px-Quayle.jpg

[Nieninque]

Then I suppose you've never been upset at the man on the corner begging for your change. Or one who washes your window in the hope that his pathetic state of life and the guilt might cause you to give him enough money to get a loaf of bread to feed himself.

Oh. And you're also a cunt.

I'm upset that people need to resort to begging. I'm not angry and never have been angry at them for asking. If I can't or don't wish to give I simply say "No, sorry."

[Nieninque]

I was in New York City working on the rescue efforts eight hours after the towers came down. I lost two childhood friends when they came down.

I'm not speaking from a pulpit. I've been through rough and crucial times. I didn't scream that people weren't helping me fast enough.

Because you had food, water and medical aid.

Therein lies a rather small difference.

Do you not think the Haitians are wondering how the aid agencies can't get in, but all these fucking television crews can?

[NocturnalRob]

Earthquake in Venezuela, CA, and Haiti all in less than a month. MOTHER EARTH IS MAD!! GAIA CRUSH!!

[Emislity]

Two words....

Foreign Policy.

[Celephais]

You know why I'm mad about Haiti? Because any day now a bunch of celebrities will have a song about helping out, that they all sing together, lead by bono and I'm going to have to listen to that crap.

[NocturnalRob]

Where were you...when the earthquake hit Haaaaiti?

Yeah, pretty much. Although, to be fair, celebrity involvement ensures that money is being channeled to relief, even if it comes at the cost of listening to said celebrities sing. I'd say it's worth it. I can always turn off my radio.

[Keller]

There needs to be a celebrity wet t-shirt contest for charity. That would raise a ton of money.

But, again, they are all songs and no actions. Typical liberals.

[Cephalopod]

There needs to be a celebrity wet t-shirt contest for charity. That would raise a ton of money.

I just looked at some celebrities in wet t-shirts and made a donation.

[Sweets]

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/Kithus/OllieHaiti.png

Agreed. Kithus wins!

[Clove]

Because you had food, water and medical aid.

Therein lies a rather small difference.

Do you not think the Haitians are wondering how the aid agencies can't get in, but all these fucking television crews can?Because you can't eat a television camera? Oh and food and medical supplies for 10k people probably take more logistics than a bimbo, a cameraman, a techie and a satellite uplink.

[Cephalopod]

Because you can't eat a television camera? Oh and food and medical supplies for 10k people probably take more logistics than a bimbo, a cameraman, a techie and a satellite uplink.

Sentences like this make me wonder when the media crews will start looking like food to the population.

[Parker]

Sentences like this make me wonder when the media crews will start looking like food to the population.

Quoth the man named Nachos

[TheEschaton]

Haiti basically put themselves in the dire situation they are in. Since winning independence, they made terrible economic decisions and has clearly not managed the country well.

There is no reason why the US is obliged to help ... ought to be an "out of sight, out of mind" thing, as whatever happens in Haiti does not really meaningfully impact the US (a contrast to Iraq, where there are resources we need, and to Afghan, to deny further terrorist attacks on our soil).

This is an outright mis-statement. Since Independence, the U.S. has been fucking with Haiti every step of the way, interefering with their elections, their presidents, and their economies. Why do you think Haiti is in a fucked up situation to begin with? Because they're somehow inferior to us? They can't think? Or maybe they're naturally more corrupt in their government than us.

Jesus. Our obligation to Haiti exists because we've done more to fuck that country up than any other country in the world. Maybe that's why they were screaming for aid from us on TV.

[Atlanteax]

Haiti basically destroyed their own sugar-production industry ... in a parallel to how Venezuela's oil industry is going into a severe decline under Chavez.

Ideally, Haiti would be a bit more prosperous place for its citizens to live, had their sugar industry thrived instead.

[TheEschaton]

Geee, I wonder why the sugar industry failed?


Shifts in the world sugar market, caused mainly by the international substitution of corn-based fructose for sugarcane, exerted further pressure on Haitian producers. One result of this situation was the practice of importing sugar, which was then reexported to the United States under the Haitian sugar quota. Reductions in Haiti's quota during the 1980s, however, limited exchanges of this sort.


Oh yeah, we made it fail.

[Atlanteax]

Haiti's poor history with its sugar cane industry existed prior to the 1980s.

But I shouldn't be surprised that you'd leap at pulling data that explicitly blames the U.S.

[TheEschaton]

Problems it was recovering from. The 1970s saw an uptick in sugar production and exportation, before the Reagan administration, and globalization. To be honest, I win this conversation just by mentioning Popa Doc Duvalier, and our help in the ousting of Aristide.

[Keller]

Problems it was recovering from. The 1970s saw an uptick in sugar production and exportation, before the Reagan administration, and globalization. To be honest, I win this conversation just by mentioning Popa Doc Duvalier, and our help in the ousting of Aristide.

But do you know Papa Doc's real name?

His name is Clarence. He lives at home with his parents. His parents have a real good marriage.

Now who wins?

[Allereli]

I'm mad about Pat Robertson

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html

[Latrinsorm]

I think Bono's wet t-shirt days are well behind him.

[Tisket]

I'm mad about Pat Robertson

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html

Clearly Robertson's wrong. We all know God resides strictly within American borders. No way would He side with the French.

Also, not a fan of Olbermann but he had a pretty cool response to claims that the Haitians somehow brought this on themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPoWOw8Jm5w&feature=player_embedded

Alternate link for those who can't access youtube at work:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/14/olbermann_robertson_blames_haitians_for_earthquake .html

[Sean]

Clearly Robertson's wrong. We all know God resides strictly within American borders. No way would He side with the French.

Also, not a fan of Olbermann but he had a pretty cool response to claims that the Haitians somehow brought this on themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPoWOw8Jm5w&feature=player_embedded

Alternate link for those who can't access youtube at work:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/14/olbermann_robertson_blames_haitians_for_earthquake .html

Why I'm mad about Tisket.. she posted all seriously and political links.. boo

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm late to the party here, but my stance is as human beings we should do everything we can if there is a natural disaster and people need help. I don't care what the deficit is or their political affiliation.

People are people. You stripe away nationalism, race, religion... we are all people and nearly everyone a good person. If you fall down, human nature is someone would stop and help you up. I've never been to a country completely full of people indifferent to everyone else's plight.

FFS even my dogs protect the injured members of the family.

[Parker]

I do not consider the entirety of the human race to be my family. And a dog will happily kill another dog for offense.

It's really a horrible analogy. And the idealistic belief that we should help every struggling person on the planet is insane.

You're a commie.

[Tisket]

I do not consider the entirety of the human race to be my family.

That's a relief. I wouldn't want you as a family member.

But I'd still try to help you if you were trapped under rubble...

[Parker]

And I intend to help, too. I'm not saying we shouldn't help. I'm saying we aren't OBLIGATED to help. Help if you want, don't if you don't, but don't demand help when you can't take care of yourself.

[NocturnalRob]

I'm mad about Haiti because Salesforce CRM put up a fucking ad about donating to help Haiti, and now no one can log on to the fucking system.

[Nieninque]

And I intend to help, too. I'm not saying we shouldn't help. I'm saying we aren't OBLIGATED to help. Help if you want, don't if you don't, but don't demand help when you can't take care of yourself.


You're a fucking idiot

[Androidpk]

You're a fucking idiot

That about sums it up.

[Nieninque]

I do not consider the entirety of the human race to be my family. And a dog will happily kill another dog for offense.

Actually they wont.

Foxhounds, for instance, have to be trained to hunt and kill foxes. The ones that dont are shot. It isnt natural for most dogs to kill for offense. People make them do it.


It's really a horrible analogy. And the idealistic belief that we should help every struggling person on the planet is insane.

You're a commie.

If being sane is your reality...lalalalalalalalalalalalala

[Parker]

You're a fucking idiot

And you're a bitch that enjoys nothing in life more than being cynical beyond words, with the sole intent of berating others.

And yes, Dogs will regularly kill other dogs for offense. The only way to twist it on humans is to pose the fact that dogs have been bred to the point that they can't survive without human influence in some way.

And unless I'm mistaken, aren't foxhounds trained NOT to kill the fox?

[Androidpk]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/19859/423630-FOXHOUND_Logo_large.png

[Tisket]

And you're a bitch that enjoys nothing in life more than being cynical beyond words, with the sole intent of berating others.

Cynical? This coming from someone who thinks that people in desperate straits should just keep their mouth shut and not ask for help.

[NocturnalRob]

I love breaking Rob's heart.
A-tisket, a-tasket, a green and yellow basket.
I wrote a letter to my love, and on the way I dropped it.

I dropped it, I dropped it. Yes, on the way I dropped it.
A little girlie picked it up and took it to the market.

She was trucking on down the avenue without a single thing to do.
She was peck, peck, peckin' all around when she spied it on the ground.

A-tisket a-tasket, she took my yellow basket.
And if she doesn't bring it back, I think that I shall die.

:(

[Parker]

Cynical? This coming from someone who thinks that people in desperate straits should just keep their mouth shut and not ask for help.

They're not asking. They're demanding. And berating the helpers for not doling out charity fast enough.

[Tisket]

haha. Now I will have that tune stuck in my head all night.

[NocturnalRob]

They're not asking. They're demanding. And berating the helpers for not doling out charity fast enough.
Wouldn't you do the same to help yourself and your family? Put yourself in their shoes, in their mindset. I'd be freaking the fuck out. Hell, I'd be so goddamned bereft and nuts, I'd demand shit from the man on the moon if I thought it would help.

[Tisket]

They're not asking. They're demanding. And berating the helpers for not doling out charity fast enough.

Yes, you are right, they should just DIE QUIETLY. Damn them for being vocal.

[NocturnalRob]

I mean...it's not a foxhound, but still--
http://memegenerator.net/Instances/725/Courage-Wolf-SHUT-UP-AND-DIE-LIKE-AN-AVIATOR.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

They're not asking. They're demanding. And berating the helpers for not doling out charity fast enough.You said something earlier in the thread about how the entire world knows the economic "woes" America is experiencing, and how Haitians should take that into account. It is that and being aggravated by being "berated" by people whose families are dying that makes me think you are so self-centered that you literally can't understand the situation these people are in. Like an infant, you can only conceive of the universe from an egocentric perspective.

[Parker]

You said something earlier in the thread about how the entire world knows the economic "woes" America is experiencing, and how Haitians should take that into account.

That was in reference to the idea that we would lose 'moral high ground' with other nations should we not force money into a crippled country.

I understand intimately what it's like to be on the brink of death with no help. I'm not sharing my sob story, but yes, I did indeed ask, and in fact yelled for help. However, I didn't berate the EMT's that they weren't moving fast enough for my liking.

People seem to think I'm against helping. I'm quite seriously not. I'm still attempting to find a way to help, myself. (Since I have no money to send).

[Latrinsorm]

I understand intimately what it's like to be on the brink of death with no help. I'm not sharing my sob story, but yes, I did indeed ask, and in fact yelled for help. However, I didn't berate the EMT's that they weren't moving fast enough for my liking.This is what I mean. You understand you being in a desperate situation. You have evinced an inability to understand that someone else can be in a desperate situation, and react accordingly.

[Parker]

As much as people want to believe otherwise, it's actually impossible to view the world through another's eyes.

I have lost people in my life, some close to me, and some under tragic circumstances. I did not blame those who tried to help, even if the situation was utterly retarded, and they could be blamed for being inept.

Any attempt to help is better than no attempt to help.

[Androidpk]

I can only imagine the fear and suffering these people are going through right now. I know that I can say that I don't know what I would do if me and my family were in a similar situation.

Parker, I don't know you from a hole in the ground, but if their reaction to that catastrophic event [b]makes you mad[b], you seriously need to evaluate just what type of person you really are.
I know it isn't something you can go out to the mall and buy, but you should really find a way to pick up some empathy.

[Parker]

I can only imagine the fear and suffering these people are going through right now. I know that I can say that I don't know what I would do if me and my family were in a similar situation.

Parker, I don't know you from a hole in the ground, but if their reaction to that catastrophic event [b]makes you mad[b], you seriously need to evaluate just what type of person you really are.
I know it isn't something you can go out to the mall and buy, but you should really find a way to pick up some empathy.

I know I have very little empathy for someone who cannot control themselves, or help themself. It's not something I find to be a required trait in a human being.

Screaming at a camera that people aren't helping fast enough is utter foolishness, when only a few hours later they had to close the goddamn port in the country because they couldn't fit more stuff on the dock.

Instead of screaming at a camera, I would have been moving towards the dock with my family. I am not mad at what happened. I am not mad that people are panicking. I am mad that they are snubbing the best efforts of their neighbors to help.

Edited to say, Damn. I hit 600 posts. I'm a baller. And I'm done for the night. Will pick up tommorrow.

[Tisket]

It's been said before but it bears repeating...god you are a stupid cunt.

[TheEschaton]

I seriously think you might have rage issues, or some sort of trauma-related issues.

[Androidpk]

I know I have very little empathy for someone who cannot control themselves, or help themself. It's not something I find to be a required trait in a human being.

Are you kidding? I think that is one of the defining traits for all of humanity.

[Kithus]

Where are all the conservatives who bitch and moan endlessly about "socialist health care" in America? The ones that point out every penny our current government spends as a sign of the waste of the Democratic party. Those guys are alright with spending millions of taxpayer dollars on aid to another country? Is it only a problem when we're using taxpayer dollars to take care of disadvantaged Americans then? Why aren't any of these hyper fiscal conservatives asking where the money for this is going to come from?

[thefarmer]

Are you kidding? I think that is one of the defining traits for all of humanity.

I'm not sure that empathy is one of the defining traits for all of humanity.. but having it is nice.

[Androidpk]

Edited to say, Damn. I hit 600 posts. I'm a baller. And I'm done for the night. Will pick up tommorrow.

http://www.automopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/whiteguy.jpg

[Androidpk]

BTW, I wonder what is going to end up having more news coverage. Michael Jackson's death or Haiti.

[Back]

Been watching this thread... such a sad, and incorrect, commentary on humanity by the OP.

Good to see PC step up.

Parker, if you ever need anything, go fuck yourself.

But seriously. We are here, man. Whatever you need.

[TheEschaton]

Definitely Michael Jackson. This story will be over next week.

[Parker]

http://www.automopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/whiteguy.jpg

Where'd you find a picture of me?

[Androidpk]

Oh god. Agreeing with back to back posts by Back and the E.

[Androidpk]

I'm not sure that empathy is one of the defining traits for all of humanity.. but having it is nice.

I might be slightly naive.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Where are all the conservatives who bitch and moan endlessly about "socialist health care" in America? The ones that point out every penny our current government spends as a sign of the waste of the Democratic party. Those guys are alright with spending millions of taxpayer dollars on aid to another country? Is it only a problem when we're using taxpayer dollars to take care of disadvantaged Americans then? Why aren't any of these hyper fiscal conservatives asking where the money for this is going to come from?

I guess I'm one of those conservatives that "bitch and moan endless" about socialist health care. Where will the money come from? We'll print more, like we are doing RIGHT NOW for everything we do. Do you seriously think that helping a country that has an emergency will break our government?

I have two statements for you.

1) Haiti is an unforeseen emergency. Not related to any war, vote, political affiliation... it just happened. A one time event does not a national policy make. We can help them and still figure out our fucked up healthcare.

2) Helping Haiti one time (or even several times) will not compare in expense to any regular budget item. They are asking for clean water, temp shelter and medicine for a short period of time. WATER FFS. Turn the fucking hose on and point it in their direction.


I have one question for all the opposer's of humanitarian aid to Haiti:

If it were America and an equally large portion of our population had a national emergency, wouldn't you like it if other countries (most likely economically less successful than us) helped us? Our would you rather hear not our country, not our problem.

For those of you who's mantra is not our country, not our problem. Do you carry that same philosophy home with you. If you neighbors wife is mugged in her driveway, and you see it... not your house, not your problem. If you mom who lives in another state is date raped, not your state, not your problem... on and on. That's a pretty shitty way to live.

I'm not a fan of solving every problem in the world, but you also cannot turn a blind eye to things. Because bad things happen that are preventable, and shame on you and anyone else who lets it happen.

We should always strive to improve the world, our little sphere of influence at a time. That may mean instead of building a park for our kids to play in this summer, we send bottle water to Haiti. I think our kids will understand when they grow up.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I do not consider the entirety of the human race to be my family. And a dog will happily kill another dog for offense.

It's really a horrible analogy. And the idealistic belief that we should help every struggling person on the planet is insane.

You're a commie.

A segue, if you will

"a dog will happily kill another dog for offense"

First, I don't understand what killing for offense even means. But if I use "a dog will happily kill another dog" I can work with that.

Being a long time dog owner and co-owner of a 180 dog boarding kennel, I disagree. I've never once seen a dog attack another dog without reason.

Hunger, yes. Possessiveness, yes. Shock, yes. Jealousy, yes. Establishing dominance, yes. Defending another dog, yes. But never once, have I seen a dog just flat out attack another dog. And typically dogs don't fight other dogs "to the death" either, mostly it's about establishing the "barking order" so to speak.

Granted the dogs we board are pets, and this isn't a dog fighting area nor do I think dogs trained to attack and fight get boarded very often. I would say with few exceptions though, dogs don't attack each other (key part here) without reason, and often they work together. See dog packs bringing down larger prey for example.

So far as helping every person on the planet being insane, I disagree with you there too. I don't think it's insane, I'd say it's an ideal, though not really achievable because you haven't defined help so help to me might be a nice Porsche, while help to the poor sap in Haiti might be pulling him out of 6 feet of mud. I'm no Gandhi who can have an impact like he did. But I do believe if we can, we should help those we can. Don't give up you house, don't travel to the far reaches of the world, but everyone in the world deserves humanitarian aid if it's possible. What's wrong with that?

Finally, I don't see what any of my statement has to do with communism. You could label me an altruist. That doesn't sound right because I'm not one by definition. How about you say next time "You're a semi-altruistic person with regards Haiti on this matter".

I like that more than communist. I mean, no need to get all hurtful and all.


Finally, because I feel very verbose today.

We aren't the world police, no. We aren't the solution to world issues. But we are people on the same planet and FFS I know in our hearts we are a kind people. Helping others should occur regardless of politics, race, cost, location.

If the US ever had a catastrophe that hit our entire nation (pretend a meteor hit every state - not enough to destroy earth but to just stop fresh water in all the contiguous 48 states). I'm positive friend and foe alike would come to our aid.

Anyone I need to hug it out or something, but I have more faith in mankind than some of the more cynical I guess.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

oh... I quit smoking yesterday, so maybe that's why I'm all touchy feely.

[Ker_Thwap]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4342434.html

[Back]

oh... I quit smoking yesterday, so maybe that's why I'm all touchy feely.

Good for you! And yes, you seem a little sensitive today.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

this is heartbreaking

An 11 year old girl died because there weren't resources there to help her (http://www.sphere.com/world/article/11-year-old-haitian-girl-rescued-in-haiti-dies/19319226?icid=webmail|wbml-aol|dl1|link3|http://www.sphere.com/world/article/11-year-old-haitian-girl-rescued-in-haiti-dies/19319226)

Last words "Momma, don't let me die"

Maybe if Parker was ok with us helping, she wouldn't have. Probably not though, tragedy occurs all the time.

[Back]

Oh god. Agreeing with back to back posts by Back and the E.

Don’t be skurd. Be cosmic.

[Parker]

I have really only two things to say, at this point, all things considered.

A: Apparently, people read what they want to read.

B: I am in favor of helping. I'm waiting now to see if I pass the background check required to go to Haiti and help manually, since I don't have the money or resources to send anything else.

This has been the ongoing responce to every person who has said I am against helping. I am not against helping. I am against being screamed at, either as a member of a community, or as an individual, for not helping fast enough, when there is no way I can conceivably do more.

[Back]

Good for you, douche head.

[Parker]

Good for you, douche head.

*Facepalm*

You're retarded.

[Nieninque]

this is heartbreaking

An 11 year old girl died because there weren't resources there to help her (http://www.sphere.com/world/article/11-year-old-haitian-girl-rescued-in-haiti-dies/19319226?icid=webmail%7Cwbml-aol%7Cdl1%7Clink3%7Chttp://www.sphere.com/world/article/11-year-old-haitian-girl-rescued-in-haiti-dies/19319226)

Last words "Momma, don't let me die"

Maybe if Parker was ok with us helping, she wouldn't have. Probably not though, tragedy occurs all the time.

To be fair to Parker, he was fine with people helping her. He would just have been really really mad if Momma was angry about no-one being able to.

Fair point really.

[Back]

*Facepalm*

You're retarded.

Hey bud. Just to let you know... you’ve been very retarded with this whole thread.

It happens. Been there done that. We move on.

[Cephalopod]

To be fair to Parker, he was fine with people helping her. He would just have been really really mad if Momma was angry about no-one being able to.

Fair point really.

Daughter: "Don't let me die, momma."
Momma: "SOMEONE HELP MY DAUGHTER NOW, SHE'S DYING!"
Parker: "Ma'am... I'm sorry, but when I stubbed my toe, where were you to help me? I didn't scream for your help, nor did I see you rushing to help me. Why should I be obligated to help you now?"

(Note that Parker is very polite in the above discussion.)

[Parker]

Daughter: "Don't let me die, momma."
Momma: "SOMEONE HELP MY DAUGHTER NOW, SHE'S DYING!"
Parker: "Ma'am... I'm sorry, but when I stubbed my toe, where were you to help me? I didn't scream for your help, nor did I see you rushing to help me. Why should I be obligated to help you now?"

(Note that Parker is very polite in the above discussion.)

In this theoretical, am I already moving as fast as I possibly can to help her? Doing everything I can?

If that's the case, what does screaming at me do other than aggravate an already fucked up situation?

Same @ Nien's post.

[Kithus]

For what it's worth Parker I see what you're trying to say. These people were immediately blaming America for not being able to help fast enough. They were angry at our country for a perceived lack of effort when, in fact, our country is actually doing quite a bit despite any lack of actual obligation. The fact that these people immediately assume America would, and in fact SHOULD, be doing something and were angry that America wasn't doing what they wanted fast enough is an issue.

Quite honestly I'm not sure why you're still taking so much heat. I'm the one who thinks that, beyond sending troops to aid in the rescue effort, we shouldn't be committing a dime to another country.

[Parker]

For what it's worth Parker I see what you're trying to say. These people were immediately blaming America for not being able to help fast enough. They were angry at our country for a perceived lack of effort when, in fact, our country is actually doing quite a bit despite any lack of actual obligation. The fact that these people immediately assume America would, and in fact SHOULD, be doing something and were angry that America wasn't doing what they wanted fast enough is an issue.

Quite honestly I'm not sure why you're still taking so much heat. I'm the one who thinks that, beyond sending troops to aid in the rescue effort, we shouldn't be committing a dime to another country.

I guess it boils down like this.

I think we should help, with as many soldiers and aid workers as we possibly can.

If we can spare the people or the equipment, we should send it over there and do whatever we can, as fast as we can, no questions asked.

However, here's the facts; A 7.0 earthquake hit a country with one of the worst infrastructures one could really imagine. People are going to die. It's an unavoidable fact. But there's only so much we can do so fast, and getting hollered at for it is a slap in the face when I can be quite sure that many of the volunteers have put down their day-to-day lives on a moment's notice to rush and help.

I have to disagree, politely, and say we should also send money. It's a waste of money. It's not going to help Haiti in a year from now in any perceivable way. That doesn't mean we shouldn't send it. If it saves a life, no matter how shitty that life is going to be, it gives a chance for tommorrow to be better, even if it's miniscule. But the life-savers are doing all they can, as fast as I think any relief effort has ever been put together. Everyone's seen it all over the television, heard it on the radio, and read it on the web. Even the best efforts aren't good enough, but that doesn't mean I think they deserve to be screamed at for their very best efforts.

[Kithus]

http://www.letsputamericafirst.com/eagle%20on%20guard%20II.jpg

[Parker]

That should fuck up someone's day, right there.

[Stretch]

Barack Obama does not care about Haitians.

[Androidpk]

Last time I checked there were American's in Haiti.

[Latrinsorm]

To be fair to Parker, he was fine with people helping her.Only if she had said "Momma please don't let me die".
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...h/4342434.htmlIt's kind of a misleading headline. 100,000 dead vs. 300,000 dead is better, but it's still an inconceivably devastating tragedy, which I think is kind of the issue. Generally people (in this case the government of Haiti) just can't believe that something so awful will happen, but it inevitably does. It's enough to make a person campaign for pessimism.

[Tisket]

Satan responds to Pat Robertson (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/the_devil_writes_pat_robertson.html?sc=fb&cc=fp)

Nothing but win:


Dear Pat Robertson,

I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action.

But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher. The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished.

Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle. Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"?

If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing. An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll.

You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.

Best, Satan

[radamanthys]

http://haitimonsterkill.ytmnd.com/

That's all I have to say about that.

Edit: Not really, but still.

[Back]

Satan responds to Pat Robertson (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/the_devil_writes_pat_robertson.html?sc=fb&cc=fp)

Nothing but win:

So win.

[Bobmuhthol]

http://kennedy.byu.edu/events/enews/images/BOScover_win09.jpg

[Atlanteax]

Took a few days for the Editorial Cartoons, but this one about sums it up:

http://cagle.com/working/100115/crowe.jpg