A Person Died

[Latrinsorm]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=reilly_rick&id=4817330

A transgendered sportswriter, apparent suicide.

[Methais]

Oh.

[Belnia]

What will the tombstone say?

[Methais]

What will the tombstone say?

http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/27347/TombstoneDeepDishPizzaVendingMachin.jpg

[Numbers]

How does that even work?

[Gan]

This thread died.

Or more accurately was DOA.

[Clove]

So someone lost a son? Daughter? Son? Daughter?

[Kuyuk]

So in one thread when someone dies as a neighbor to clove, we're expected to feel bad.

In the other thread when someone dies, we poke fun?


Not that I really care mind you, just wondering.

Smoking cigars in bed and going up in flames is Darwin at work.. suicide like that is a shitty way to go.

And in the article I think it mentioned three people who are writers for semi major publications that went transgender... I didnt think it was that popular?

[radamanthys]

So in one thread when someone dies as a neighbor to clove, we're expected to feel bad.

In the other thread when someone dies, we poke fun?


Not that I really care mind you, just wondering.

Smoking cigars in bed and going up in flames is Darwin at work.. suicide like that is a shitty way to go.

And in the article I think it mentioned three people who are writers for semi major publications that went transgender... I didnt think it was that popular?

It's not really news. People kill themselves all the time, and this person was not any more (nor any less) special or deserving of sympathy than the average white hetero male would be.

I have an inkling that Latrin feels otherwise; that this is somehow more of a tragedy than typical because the person was transgendered (and thus giving the impression that it was society's repression that really killed him and not his own depression?). And in that case, I don't mind using glibness, crude humor, or any other means to drop him off his pseudo-moral high horse. For what he hoped to say by posting that 'news', he might as well have posted it in the political folder.

Clove had his event happen close to home. I don't really give a hoot about the dude who died, there. It's more something happening near to a member of our community that evokes the sympathy rather than the event itself.

[Latrinsorm]

To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be a newsman. Nor did I hope to "say" anything - what I hoped for was for people to read the link. To my understanding this is a fairly straightforward and commonplace interaction.

[Celephais]

than the average white hetero male would be.
Affirmative death re-action.

[radamanthys]

To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be a newsman. Nor did I hope to "say" anything - what I hoped for was for people to read the link. To my understanding this is a fairly straightforward and commonplace interaction.

It certainly is. But you certainly found some emotion in that article above that of a typical suicide, since you decided to choose that particular article to share. Meaning you regard this particular suidice as being more 'sharable', or more important, than that of any other person. The only difference than a typical article would be that the person in question was transgendered. It obviously annoys me (as it does you) when someone becomes more or less important because of 'what' they are rather than 'who' they are. In your case I'm convinced that it's well meaning, but I see it like agar to hateful thought, and thus insipid.

Does it not trouble you that such an obvious polar argument would slip into your interaction as totally commonplace?

[Drisco]

It's not really news. People kill themselves all the time, and this person was not any more (nor any less) special or deserving of sympathy than the average white hetero male would be.

I have an inkling that Latrin feels otherwise; that this is somehow more of a tragedy than typical because the person was transgendered (and thus giving the impression that it was society's repression that really killed him and not his own depression?). And in that case, I don't mind using glibness, crude humor, or any other means to drop him off his pseudo-moral high horse. For what he hoped to say by posting that 'news', he might as well have posted it in the political folder.

Clove had his event happen close to home. I don't really give a hoot about the dude who died, there. It's more something happening near to a member of our community that evokes the sympathy rather than the event itself.

See now the part bold is what I have a question for. When you say this do you mean that like Gandhi, Presidents, Soldiers, etc etc should deserve no more sympathy than the average Joe?

Or does a LGBT activist who was fighting for their life against probably an army of haters not deserve any more sympathy than the regular person.

[Bobmuhthol]

Presidents are not average. However, I'm not sure I'd call a transgendered person average either, but that's because I also believe that there is a mental defect involved.

[Tisket]

The article was well written, interesting, and sad.

Since when do we need any better reason to post a thread, rada?

[Drisco]

Presidents are not average. However, I'm not sure I'd call a transgendered person average either, but that's because I also believe that there is a mental defect involved.

While I don't disagree there is probably something in the brain different from other people. I wouldn't' say it's a mental defect. That would be like saying anyone who isn't in the Norm has a mental defect . Just because someone is different why is it a mental disorder.

[Bobmuhthol]

Because it drove the person to commit suicide.

[Drisco]

Because it drove the person to commit suicide.

Come on Bob.. Even you know that sounds silly. Him being a trans-gender women in no way was the "Cause" for suicide. The social pressures from the people he cared about seemed to be the reason.

His wife divorcing him taking the kids, probably tons of people hating on him, the spot light turned on him. I've heard of people committing suicide for less and they were straight.

[Drew]

Smoking cigars in bed and going up in flames is Darwin at work.. suicide like that is a shitty way to go.




I'd argue that suicide is Darwin at work too. Just the faulty genes clearing themselves out.

[radamanthys]

The article was well written, interesting, and sad.

Since when do we need any better reason to post a thread, rada?

We don't. I haven't had a good semantic-shifting debate with Latrin in a while. I was starting to feel a bit of withdrawl.

And it's a political article, I'm allowed to browbeat all I want!


See now the part bold is what I have a question for. When you say this do you mean that like Gandhi, Presidents, Soldiers, etc etc should deserve no more sympathy than the average Joe?

Or does a LGBT activist who was fighting for their life against probably an army of haters not deserve any more sympathy than the regular person.

I would say that some presidents deserve honor and others don't. Just because you're a leader doesn't make you a paragon of virtue. Same with soldiers. Ghandi was a great man, and we honor him not for being a lawyer, not for being an Indian, but for being Ghandi.

Being an LGBT activist is something that a person does, not something that a person is. If this particular person spent his evenings carving neat patterns into the skins of living puppies, would we still have greater sympathy for his/her death because of his transgendered status? Or would we say he's a crazy puppy carver and say, "good riddance"?

Just because I inherently prefer to put my peepee in a girl's butt rather than a boy's butt doesn't make me any more or less special than a person who inherently likes to put their peepee in a boy's butt.

Assigning values to 'what' people are has brought the world nothing but trouble- racism, sexism, etc. It's best if we stepped away from that entirely, and just treated everyone like a person rather than deifying or demonizing for political gain.


While I don't disagree there is probably something in the brain different from other people. I wouldn't' say it's a mental defect. That would be like saying anyone who isn't in the Norm has a mental defect . Just because someone is different why is it a mental disorder.

We don't understand enough about the brain. Anything that harms a person's ability to function in society is at some point called a mental disorder. PMS (Hysteria) at one point. Homosexuality, as well. According to the conventions of our society, if we can't consider it a defect, we have to either accept it or criminalize it. Neither of those is easy to swallow for something that we actually don't understand. So we give it a moniker of 'mental disorder' and try to 'fix' people back to average. And it's not far from the truth. I bite my nails. That's a mental defect, too.

[Bobmuhthol]

I've heard of people committing suicide for less and they were straight.

Every person to commit suicide, outside of mitigating circumstances (e.g., escaping torture), has something wrong with their brain.

Let me also add that in no way did I say being transgendered is a cause for suicide.

[Drisco]

We don't. I haven't had a good semantic-shifting debate with Latrin in a while. I was starting to feel a bit of withdrawl.

And it's a political article, I'm allowed to browbeat all I want!



I would say that some presidents deserve honor and others don't. Just because you're a leader doesn't make you a paragon of virtue. Same with soldiers. Ghandi was a great man, and we honor him not for being a lawyer, not for being an Indian, but for being Ghandi.

Being an LGBT activist is something that a person does, not something that a person is. If this particular person spent his evenings carving neat patterns into the skins of living puppies, would we still have greater sympathy for his/her death because of his transgendered status? Or would we say he's a crazy puppy carver and say, "good riddance"?

Just because I inherently prefer to put my peepee in a girl's butt rather than a boy's butt doesn't make me any more or less special than a person who inherently likes to put their peepee in a boy's butt.

Assigning values to 'what' people are has brought the world nothing but trouble- racism, sexism, etc. It's best if we stepped away from that entirely, and just treated everyone like a person rather than deifying or demonizing for political gain.



We don't understand enough about the brain. Anything that harms a person's ability to function in society is at some point called a mental disorder. PMS (Hysteria) at one point. Homosexuality, as well. According to the conventions of our society, if we can't consider it a defect, we have to either accept it or criminalize it. Neither of those is easy to swallow for something that we actually don't understand. So we give it a moniker of 'mental disorder' and try to 'fix' people back to average. And it's not far from the truth. I bite my nails. That's a mental defect, too.


Okay, now I just don't understand what you meant. So you are saying that Martin Luther King doesn't deserve anymore than the average Joe. Because being a race activist was something he did.

I think it's all about the person who deserves honor or not. In my opinion I think she deserves honor. You might not, It's all in the opinion of the person.

LGBT is just Blacks Vs White in a different form persay...


The part about Mental Disorder is something I can agree with. I think it's foolish but you are right about it.


Every person to commit suicide, outside of mitigating circumstances (e.g., escaping torture), has something wrong with their brain.

Let me also add that in no way did I say being transgendered is a cause for suicide.


Yes, I agree but what you said was the transgender person had a mental disorder and he committed suicide because of it. That's how I took it at least.

[Drew]

Okay, now I just don't understand what you meant. So you are saying that Martin Luther King doesn't deserve anymore than the average Joe. Because being a race activist was something he did.

I think it's all about the person who deserves honor or not. In my opinion I think she deserves honor. You might not, It's all in the opinion of the person.

LGBT is just Blacks Vs White in a different form persay...


The part about Mental Disorder is something I can agree with. I think it's foolish but you are right about it.



No his argument was exactly the opposite. MLK deserves honor because of what he did. Not what he was. If MLK was a race right campaigner who raped a woman, he would be a bad person. The fact that he was a race rights campaigner doesn't make him a good or bad person, what he does makes him that.


Also why are we calling this guy a she? Even he went back to using his male identity before he killed himself.

[Drisco]

No his argument was exactly the opposite. MLK deserves honor because of what he did. Not what he was. If MLK was a race right campaigner who raped a woman, he would be a bad person. The fact that he was a race rights campaigner doesn't make him a good or bad person, what he does makes him that.


Also why are we calling this guy a she? Even he went back to using his male identity before he killed himself.


Oh okay I got you. I didn't catch that the first time! This then leads me to the question why this person doesn't deserve anymore sympathy than the average Joe.

We are calling this guy a woman because on the inside he wanted to be and he made it so on the outside.

[radamanthys]

Okay, now I just don't understand what you meant. So you are saying that Martin Luther King doesn't deserve anymore than the average Joe. Because being a race activist was something he did.

I think it's all about the person who deserves honor or not. In my opinion I think she deserves honor. You might not, It's all in the opinion of the person.

LGBT is just Blacks Vs White in a different form persay...


The part about Mental Disorder is something I can agree with. I think it's foolish but you are right about it.

You're agreeing with me. What a person is doesn't make them honorable. It's the things they do that makes them honorable.

We don't honor MLK because he was a black man. We didn't especially mourn him because he was a black man who was murdered. We honor him because of the great things he did.

I don't really give a rats ass if someone is black, white, Trans*, disabled, whatever. They are just another jackass until they do something cool and worth honoring. Or they are family and I have to.

I was calling Latrin out for caring more about a guy, or considering him more important, because he was transgendered. Meaning I'm less important because I'm a straight guy.

fwiw, I may be conservative but I'm pro-gay rights. Part of that whole "treat people equally" thing. At least as equally miserably as everyone else.

[Drisco]

You're agreeing with me. What a person is doesn't make them honorable. It's the things they do that makes them honorable.

We don't honor MLK because he was a black man. We didn't especially mourn him because he was a black man who was murdered. We honor him because of the great things he did.

I don't really give a rats ass if someone is black, white, Trans*, disabled, whatever. They are just another jackass until they do something cool and worth honoring. Or they are family and I have to.

I was calling Latrin out for caring more about a guy, or considering him more important, because he was transgendered. Meaning I'm less important because I'm a straight guy.

fwiw, I may be conservative but I'm pro-gay rights. Part of that whole "treat people equally" thing. At least as equally miserably as everyone else.


Awh yes my reading comprehension escapes me at night. I guess I would consider her deserving of more honor because she was a Trans-gender who was publicly outspoken and trying to turn it into something to be accepted. She may not have been overly famous like MLK but she's like the Lady on the Bus.

:rofl: , It gives me hope that conservatives can be pro-gay rights. I think maybe in my lifetime or a little after the church will collapse and LGBT's will be a thing of the passed and there will only be people.

[Tisket]

It gives me hope that conservatives can be pro-gay rights.

Hey now, I'm conservative and pro gay rights. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Latrinsorm]

Does it not trouble you that such an obvious polar argument would slip into your interaction as totally commonplace?You say there is an argument, but it exists only in your interpolation of my supposed agenda. The story is what it is, and the facts of the matter stand as written.
But you certainly found some emotion in that article above that of a typical suicide, since you decided to choose that particular article to share.I identify with struggle. Where you read me saying this article was important, I am only saying this article was remarkable - hence, I remarked.

[radamanthys]

You say there is an argument, but it exists only in your interpolation of my supposed agenda. The story is what it is, and the facts of the matter stand as written.I identify with struggle. Where you read me saying this article was important, I am only saying this article was remarkable - hence, I remarked.

Given previous disputations, I'd say there is plenty of room for my inference.

I have not put any words in your mouth, so to speak, that weren't already there. If you deny my inference, then affirm my position.


:rofl: , It gives me hope that conservatives can be pro-gay rights. I think maybe in my lifetime or a little after the church will collapse and LGBT's will be a thing of the passed and there will only be people.

I think that it's perhaps the churchgoing population's gravitation toward the conservative party that has given the conservative viewpoint a staunch reputation, rather than a natural by-product of conservatism in general.

If Prop 8 is any indication, perhaps with the recruitment and inclusion of the hyper-religious minorities in America (Hispanics and Blacks), the Democrats will be the anti-gay ones in a few relatively short years.

[Danical]

I swear, I read an article when I was in my bio psych class years back that all or nearly all men->women transgenders were reported to have a larger <insert brain organ here>. I'll try to dig it up. It was a pretty rad article.

EDIT: I can't god damn find it but wiki has something about it. On topic, that's a pretty sad story. :(

[Gan]

I refuse to click on any link that does not have an abstract of what the link is about included in the post.

If you're lazy enough to post a link without an excerpt then I'm lazy enough not to click on the link without knowing more of what its about.

Its all about the presentation.

[Danical]

I refuse to click on any link that does not have an abstract of what the link is about included in the post.

If you're lazy enough to post a link without an excerpt then I'm lazy enough not to click on the link without knowing more of what its about.

Its all about the presentation.

From the wiki . . .

Some recent findings have provided clues and possibly answers as to how or why some or most cases of transsexuality occur. In 1997, J.N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab conducted tests on the brains of transgender individuals. Their tests showed that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Their study was the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

and . . .

Perhaps confirming why this brain difference occurs, in 2008 at Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne, biological studies were performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. Their study shows male to female transsexuals are more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. They say that it is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm


I still can't find the actual research article I read but it was insanely more dry (i.e., lit reviews, methodology, data analysis, and confounding variables) than the above.

[Gan]

I should have quoted the OP. :(

That was the intended direction of my post.

Apologies Danical.

[Danical]

Oh . . . and here I was all excited someone was interested in the physiological research aspects of the topic.

[Gan]

The psyche of transgendered individuals does not hold very much interest with me. My presence here is quite trollish.

"Grr'Tok r'rlorur, Gan rofbr lirnr'k."

[Clove]

So in one thread when someone dies as a neighbor to clove, we're expected to feel bad.

In the other thread when someone dies, we poke fun?I'm sympathetic to the loss of human being, not to mention a suicide; but I don't feel that a special tragedy took place because the person was transgendered. That is where the eye-rolling comes from.

[Tea & Strumpets]

We are calling this guy a woman because on the inside he wanted to be and he made it so on the outside.

I want to be a buffalo that teaches college, so I'd appreciate it if everyone would call me Professor Buffalo.

Of course I guess that just sounds ridiculous...

[Gan]

Latrin would be justified in his reasoning behind making this thread if said transgendered individual was Latrin's neighbor or had some sort of similar personal connection as Clove's neighbor had with Clove.

:shrug:

[Krendeli]

I guessed he/she watched Avatar.

[Gan]

LOL

[Stanley Burrell]

I posted "Trogdor strikes again!" in Clove's thread, but deleted it really quickly, because I didn't want anyone to think I was a douchenozzle.

And seriously, anyone feeling emo after having watched avatar is my new reason, not excuse (damn you), for losing an erection.

[Parkbandit]

I posted "Trogdor strikes again!" in Clove's thread, but deleted it really quickly, because I didn't want anyone to think I was a douchenozzle.

A little late for that, isn't it?

[Stanley Burrell]

A little late for that, isn't it?

Listen to this guy, "A little."

[Back]

So someone lost a son? Daughter? Son? Daughter?


To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be a newsman. Nor did I hope to "say" anything - what I hoped for was for people to read the link. To my understanding this is a fairly straightforward and commonplace interaction.

You really did not have to bother. Everyone already knows Clove is a huge douche.

[Clove]

You really did not have to bother. Everyone already knows Clove is a huge douche.Douche>Moron. "In wine we trust" indeed, fucking idiot.

[Back]

Douche>Moron. "In wine we trust" indeed, fucking idiot.

I love you, too. :)

[Celephais]

Listen to this guy, "A little."
This made me choke-laugh. PB, you realize you cannot insult SB, correct? It's just a bucket of fail.

[Latrinsorm]

If you deny my inference, then affirm my position.Your two proposed positions do not form a comprehensive set.
I refuse to click on any link that does not have an abstract of what the link is about included in the post.

If you're lazy enough to post a link without an excerpt then I'm lazy enough not to click on the link without knowing more of what its about.

Its all about the presentation.To quote from the original post: "A transgendered sportswriter, apparent suicide." I trust this satisfies your first criterion.

[CrystalTears]

To quote from the original post: "A transgendered sportswriter, apparent suicide." I trust this satisfies your first criterion.I guess my question would be why should we be concerned with the loss of this particular sportswriter? Because he was so good? Why does the transgendered qualification need to be brought up?

I don't like to hear about the death of anyone because loss of life upsets me. But I don't get why there should be more sympathy for someone for their sexuality. I don't see why that had to be mentioned at all.

[AnticorRifling]

A sportswriter dies. Transgendered has no place in the headlines, if you don't want it to matter then don't try and make to help the "lol cause".

A white sportswriter dies. Nope, doesn't fit.

We just want to be accepted like everyone else except when we want to be different and special.

[Parkbandit]

A sportswriter dies. Transgendered has no place in the headlines, if you don't want it to matter then don't try and make to help the "lol cause".

A white sportswriter dies. Nope, doesn't fit.

We just want to be accepted like everyone else except when we want to be different and special.

Exactly.

The reason the OP linked this story is because the sportswriter was a transgender.. to say otherwise is disingenuous.

[Fallen]

A sportswriter dies. Transgendered has no place in the headlines, if you don't want it to matter then don't try and make to help the "lol cause".

A white sportswriter dies. Nope, doesn't fit.

We just want to be accepted like everyone else except when we want to be different and special.

"All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything" - Principal Skinner

[Latrinsorm]

I guess my question would be why should we be concerned with the loss of this particular sportswriter?I didn't say you should. This is something that happened, it's up to you whether you are concerned. I honestly didn't expect there to be any replies when I posted this.
Why does the transgendered qualification need to be brought up?For the same reason the occupation was brought up, as a characteristic that overwhelmed all others in time devoted, cognitive volume, cognitive mass, personal relevance, etc.

[Latrinsorm]

A white sportswriter dies. Nope, doesn't fit. ... We just want to be accepted like everyone else except when we want to be different and special.If you were to die, which two words do you think would best summarize your life? Why would you pick those particular words?

[AnticorRifling]

If you were to die, which two words do you think would best summarize your life? Why would you pick those particular words?

Marine and Father

Not guy who likes his penis and is cool with it or guy who hates his penis.

See the difference?

[Latrinsorm]

I would have guessed Marine and father, but why? Surely you have reasons for your decision.

[AnticorRifling]

Of course I have reasons for my decision, they don't include labeling me for a cause to get attention though. They don't include hey guys I want to be different and accepted at the same time. There's a time and a place for that dumb shit (and it is dumb the way it's handled) an obit is not the place.

[Parkbandit]

Of course I have reasons for my decision, they don't include labeling me for a cause to get attention though. They don't include hey guys I want to be different and accepted at the same time. There's a time and a place for that dumb shit (and it is dumb the way it's handled) an obit is not the place.

Lord knows you are definitely different.

[AnticorRifling]

Lord knows you are definitely different. You should treat me like nothing is different unless I beg for the attention though, thems the rules!

[Methais]

Lord knows you are definitely different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA

[Keller]

But I don't get why there should be more sympathy for someone for their sexuality.

If it were a super hot, big (within reason) tittied lesbian that put on gratuitous shows for all men everywhere -- I think it's clear why there should be more sympathy.

[Keller]

If you were to die, which two words do you think would best summarize your life? Why would you pick those particular words?
guy who likes penis

2, not 4.

[AnticorRifling]

If it were a super hot, big (within reason) tittied lesbian that put on gratuitous shows for all men everywhere -- I think it's clear why there should be more sympathy.
Exception that proves the rule and all that.

[Latrinsorm]

Of course I have reasons for my decision, they don't include labeling me for a cause to get attention though.Depending on the audience, there can be just as many apparent veiled agendas in the words "Marine" and "father". I don't think you would really care what agenda might be advanced in those cases - you're a Marine and a father, that's all there is to it. Can you see how being transgendered today, in the real world, is as critical and as inalienable to who a person is as being a father is for you?

[TheEschaton]

It's tragic in the same way that "Interracial spouse commits suicide" was tragic 50 years ago. Namely, who they are, what they are, only becomes important because they're ostracized because of it, which led to their suicide.

And Anticor, being transgendered, and expressing as the opposite sex, is not something someone does for attention. It's the same argument against people who think homosexuality is a choice: Who the hell would make the choice to be tormented by society for the rest of their life?

[AnticorRifling]

Who the hell would make the choice to be tormented by society for the rest of their life?

Emos.

But that's neither here nor there. I just think it's dumb that he or she is labeled in his obit based on his or her lack or possesion of a penis he or she didn't want from his or her birth. I didn't read the article based on the stupid title so I don't know the details on his or her penis situation.

[TheEschaton]

Like I said, it's only important because it was a factor leading up to her suicide.

20 years ago, would you have been surprised to see a headline that says, "Gay man kill himself", and then read an article about how he came out, was shunned, and eventually killed himself? No, I don't think so. Transgendered persons today suffer the same kind of stigmatization.

Edit: I just realized 20 years ago was 1990. Oh God.

[AnticorRifling]

I think they bring it upon themselves more than any other group in recent memory though. They are the first to label themselves because they want, in my opinion, snowflake status.

Maybe I'm just well adjusted but I just treat people like people, I don't give a fuck what you want to touch or what mommy daddy parts you want it's not my business and as long as it's not hurting anyone then you're just people.

[TheEschaton]

Again, you're under the impression that people choose to be transgender, to have a penis and express themselves as a woman, or vice versa. Sex vs. gender is a very complex thing, and it's not as simple as someone saying "I'm going to dress in drag so people will look at me."

Not to say there aren't any people like that, but there are those in any minority group. Emos would be a good example of attention whores looking to cash in on the legitimate sub-group of "people who are depressed".

[AnticorRifling]

Again, you're under the impression that people choose to be transgender, to have a penis and express themselves as a woman, or vice versa. Sex vs. gender is a very complex thing, and it's not as simple as someone saying "I'm going to dress in drag so people will look at me."

Not to say there aren't any people like that, but there are those in any minority group. Emos would be a good example of attention whores looking to cash in on the legitimate sub-group of "people who are depressed". Naw I don't think it's a choice. I chalk it right up there with people who say "Because I'm white/black/brown/sea foam green" I get it you've got a trait different than me, gratz. I don't put weight on it, if you do don't throw it out there and expect people to "zomg treat me the same when I toss this up in your face".

Obviously since I haven't experienced it I don't really get it but that doesn't mean I should have to have it emphasized at every fucking turn with anything related to someone who is transgender.

[TheEschaton]

That's because you're a straight white man AND U R OPPRESSING MOI!!!!!!!111one!!!1

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Hey now, I'm conservative and pro gay rights. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Ditto.

Also if you are gay I support you getting married. And Divorced. And paying different taxes and shit like that!

[TheEschaton]

Ditto.

Also if you are gay I support you getting married. And Divorced. And paying different taxes and shit like that!

Just a note, then, your political party is being taken over by nutjobs.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Just a note, then, your political party is being taken over by nutjobs.

I would not limit that to any one party, myself. I'm republican because lets admit it, we are a two party system and if you aren't one of the two, you effectively limit your ability to affect change (even if it's little change).

I'm conservative, yes, but it's not like being conservative, or liberal, is the mark of an idiot. There are plenty of folks on these boards whom I agree with though they politically are not republican.

[AnticorRifling]

That's because you're a straight white man AND U R OPPRESSING MOI!!!!!!!111one!!!1

I'm the married one. You don't know oppression!

[TheEschaton]

I can't believe you, Rob, and I are the same age. It's like we're from 3 different planets.

[AnticorRifling]

I know. I'm from IM RETARDED AND GOT MARRIED AT 23 SAVE ME PLEASE. I mean it's great...

[4a6c1]

lmao

Conservative and I've said it before and I'll say it again. Marriage: Give it to the gays!

[Kithus]

Moderate and I say give it to the gays and they can keep it.

[radamanthys]

If you were to die, which two words do you think would best summarize your life? Why would you pick those particular words?

Now that's a good thread right there.


It's tragic in the same way that "Interracial spouse commits suicide" was tragic 50 years ago. Namely, who they are, what they are, only becomes important because they're ostracized because of it, which led to their suicide.

And Anticor, being transgendered, and expressing as the opposite sex, is not something someone does for attention. It's the same argument against people who think homosexuality is a choice: Who the hell would make the choice to be tormented by society for the rest of their life?

Exactly. The reasons other people, less special people, commit suicide aren't important?

[Parkbandit]

Just a note, then, your political party is being taken over by nutjobs.

:rofl:

You should talk... though, you happen to be one of those nutjobs that took over the Democratic Party.

Oh, and PS - I don't have a problem with gays getting married.. as long as they don't get to be some protected special class above anyone else.

[TheEschaton]

Suicide is always a tragedy, but this is tragic in the sense that the the contributing factor to it was societal, and thus preventable.

That statement is meant to be a disagreement with ap revious statement by, I think Bob, who said all suicide is the result of some mental defect.

[AnticorRifling]

How do we know it was driven by society and this person was just thinking "Fuck I hate my life because of X but I might as well help my cause by blaming it on Y". (X Y chromosomes hilarious)

[Cephalopod]

Ted Olson (with Boies, both of Bush v. Gore fame) has been saying gay marriage is a conservative value:


(link (http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=101048))
"Many of my fellow conservatives have an almost knee-jerk hostility toward gay marriage," Olson noted. "This does not make sense, because same-sex unions promote the values conservatives prize. Marriage is one of the basic building blocks of our neighborhoods and our nation. At its best, it is a stable bond between two individuals who work to create a loving household and a social and economic partnership."

Olson addressed criticisms that conservatives have leveled at gays who seek marriage rights. Conservatives charge that gays seek to place their own "pleasure" above family and the needs of children; Olson boiled down the sentiment of family as central to marriage, and re-stated the idea that marriage is central to society--but from the perspective that allow gays to participate in marriage will strengthen society, not endanger it.

"Marriage requires thinking beyond one’s own needs," noted Olson. "It transforms two individuals into a union based on shared aspirations, and in doing so establishes a formal investment in the well-being of society. The fact that individuals who happen to be gay want to share in this vital social institution is evidence that conservative ideals enjoy widespread acceptance. Conservatives should celebrate this, rather than lament it.

"Legalizing same-sex marriage would also be a recognition of basic American principles, and would represent the culmination of our nation’s commitment to equal rights," Olson continued. "It is, some have said, the last major civil-rights milestone yet to be surpassed in our two-century struggle to attain the goals we set for this nation at its formation.

"This bedrock American principle of equality is central to the political and legal convictions of Republicans, Democrats, liberals, and conservatives alike," Olson argued, before going on to offer a very brief overview of the history of civil equality in America. "The very idea of marriage is basic to recognition as equals in our society," Olson concluded; "any status short of that is inferior, unjust, and unconstitutional."


It's a bit off-topic for this thread, but I couldn't figure out where to 'snip' that. Well put by a very conservative fellow.

[Clove]

It's tragic when someone commits suicide. It's more tragic when someone uses your suicide to promote an agenda exclusive of "help people cope with life and/or mental illness without resorting to suicide."

I'll say it again, it is tragic when a suicide occurs. It's more tragic when that suicide is used as ammunition for an agenda.

How many homosexuals, transgenders, interracial family members, mentally ill, morbidly obese, smokers, Pandora and Matrix citizen wannabes etc, face the adversity of their lives without offing themselves?

I have members in my family that have attempted suicide and members in my family that have succeeded suicide. It is the impulse that is tragic, not the reasoning or circumstances behind it. To martyr a suicide for a cause only encourages suicides.

[radamanthys]

Suicide is always a tragedy, but this is tragic in the sense that the the contributing factor to it was societal, and thus preventable.

That statement is meant to be a disagreement with ap revious statement by, I think Bob, who said all suicide is the result of some mental defect.

Hahaha, my original point exactly. But I guess some groups are more deserving of our concern than others. Equal rights be damned.

[Methais]

Who the hell would make the choice to be tormented by society for the rest of their life?


Emos.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/42/577342/1/85514058.JM8in0AI.endTHREAD.jpg

[Celephais]

I don't understand suicide... have these people tried video games? If you've had enough with the world at least go out on one of those 'gamed for 72 hours strait until their heart gave out from exhaustion' type of things.

There are plenty of fun ways to remove yourself from the world, the least you could do is something ridiculously stupid that might get you a darwin award. Dress up like batman and run around trying to stop crime. Build your own space shuttle. Go to an all you can eat and don't stop. Get a pterodactyl suit and jump off the grand canyon. Or do the world a favor an take out carrot top.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm going to go out by injecting heroin into my balls and then having sex with lots of random women. Then when I ejaculate it will be heroin and they will be addicted to my sex and will wander the world trying to find that which gives them such a high from sex but they will fail. And I will be a legend.

[Celephais]

I'm going to go out by injecting heroin into my balls and then having sex with lots of random women. Then when I ejaculate it will be heroin and they will be addicted to my sex and will wander the world trying to find that which gives them such a high from sex but they will fail. And I will be a legend.
Maybe these people are killing themselves are linked to lack of creativity, because that's brilliant. Dr. Kevorkian was an idiot ... if I was an assisted suicide doctor I'd become the go-to guy because I'd be telling people all these great ways to off themselves.

... AR I would hire you as a consultant.

[AnticorRifling]

It's modified from something I read...I think maybe on bash a long time ago. But yeah if I'm going out it's going to go out by my own design it's going to be a "Holy shit did you see what that guy did to off himself?!" and not "Did you see that a WHITE guy killed himself?" see I can use an adj. that doesn't really add anything to the suicide notice too.

[Methais]

I don't understand suicide... have these people tried video games? If you've had enough with the world at least go out on one of those 'gamed for 72 hours strait until their heart gave out from exhaustion' type of things.

There are plenty of fun ways to remove yourself from the world, the least you could do is something ridiculously stupid that might get you a darwin award. Dress up like batman and run around trying to stop crime. Build your own space shuttle. Go to an all you can eat and don't stop. Get a pterodactyl suit and jump off the grand canyon. Or do the world a favor an take out carrot top.

Because it hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=manly_suicide

It probably doesn't apply to trannies since it's intended for men, but whateverrrr okayyyyy.

[Clove]

I'm going out via jealous husband/boyfriend.

[Drisco]

It's tragic when someone commits suicide. It's more tragic when someone uses your suicide to promote an agenda exclusive of "help people cope with life and/or mental illness without resorting to suicide."

I'll say it again, it is tragic when a suicide occurs. It's more tragic when that suicide is used as ammunition for an agenda.

How many homosexuals, transgenders, interracial family members, mentally ill, morbidly obese, smokers, Pandora and Matrix citizen wannabes etc, face the adversity of their lives without offing themselves?

I have members in my family that have attempted suicide and members in my family that have succeeded suicide. It is the impulse that is tragic, not the reasoning or circumstances behind it. To martyr a suicide for a cause only encourages suicides.

I don't think it's wrong to use someones suicide to start a cause. Imagine if you were a parent and your child committed suicide because she/he was LGBT or even just bullied. You tried to put a stop to it before he/she did the act but you couldn't. Wouldn't trying to prevent what happened to your child/friend/husband/wife and using them as an example not be so wrong?

Some people are stronger than others, some people cope with stress easier than others. I don't think I can blame someone persay for committing suicide in a society as harsh as ours. I feel like they are stupid for it, should have seeked helped, moved, done something to get out of the situation. But suicide sometimes actually feels like the only escape and any other alternative seems bleak.

[Celephais]

in a society as harsh as ours.
I can't come up with a response that is worthy of this comment. I'm going to need to think about this so I can come up with something appropriate.

[Celephais]

I can't decide... do I go with something about being canadian? Or do I go with something about how I can't fit all my fifties in my wallet? Maybe I go with something about how MF2 doesn't have dedicated servers.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I can't decide... do I go with something about being canadian?

Don't go with the Canada thing. We just fuck them because they are harmless neighbors, and we secretly like them. It's not their fault they have French vagina in their genes.

[TheEschaton]

Man, gaming for 72 hours straight is like, child's play.

[CrystalTears]

I don't think it's wrong to use someones suicide to start a cause. Imagine if you were a parent and your child committed suicide because she/he was LGBT or even just bullied. You tried to put a stop to it before he/she did the act but you couldn't. Wouldn't trying to prevent what happened to your child/friend/husband/wife and using them as an example not be so wrong?If they personally tried to help and failed, how is someone else's example going to help?


Some people are stronger than others, some people cope with stress easier than others. I don't think I can blame someone persay for committing suicide in a society as harsh as ours. I feel like they are stupid for it, should have seeked helped, moved, done something to get out of the situation. But suicide sometimes actually feels like the only escape and any other alternative seems bleak.Suicide is a cowardly and permanent solution because they didn't want to solve the problem. There's no good justification or rationalization for it.

[Drisco]

I can't decide... do I go with something about being canadian? Or do I go with something about how I can't fit all my fifties in my wallet? Maybe I go with something about how MF2 doesn't have dedicated servers.

My god you are sooooo transparent. :)

If they personally tried to help and failed, how is someone else's example going to help?

Suicide is a cowardly and permanent solution because they didn't want to solve the problem. There's no good justification or rationalization for it.

The example is going to show people just how much words actually effect people. I know I felt something when I was in school and they showed a video of a Overweight teenager who shot up the school and committed suicide because of the words people were saying to her. I've never forgot that video and I honestly can say I try to be careful of what I say to some people because of it.

Suicide is cowardly and there is no justification but when you are in such a situation where you have no where else to turn I bet it's easily rationalized.

[Celephais]

My god you are sooooo transparent. :)


The example is going to show people just how much words actually effect people. I know I felt something when I was in school and they showed a video of a Overweight teenager who shot up the school and committed suicide because of the words people were saying to her. I've never forgot that video and I honestly can say I try to be careful of what I say to some people because of it.

Suicide is cowardly and there is no justification but when you are in such a situation where you have no where else to turn I bet it's easily rationalized.
The difficulties faced by middle class individuals in developed countries are incredibly inane. Kids can be particularly terrible to each other (almost as bad as adults when they're anonymous), and an undeveloped, coddled and improperly educated mind could easily rationalize suicide to themselves over something like 'not fitting in'.

It may sound insensitive to say this but the fact this person felt so wrong in their own body is not an excuse, the fact that their society does not accept them trying to feel right in their own body is not an excuse, these may be difficulties they have to face in life, but that difficulty pales to what others have endured and worked through. If he were born in (cliche I know) Iraq, do you think he'd be given as much freedom to be who he felt he was as he did in America? His problems seem trivial in comparison.

[Drisco]

The difficulties faced by middle class individuals in developed countries are incredibly inane. Kids can be particularly terrible to each other (almost as bad as adults when they're anonymous), and an undeveloped, coddled and improperly educated mind could easily rationalize suicide to themselves over something like 'not fitting in'.

It may sound insensitive to say this but the fact this person felt so wrong in their own body is not an excuse, the fact that their society does not accept them trying to feel right in their own body is not an excuse, these may be difficulties they have to face in life, but that difficulty pales to what others have endured and worked through. If he were born in (cliche I know) Iraq, do you think he'd be given as much freedom to be who he felt he was as he did in America? His problems seem trivial in comparison.

Very well said, although that is one thing I've never felt a valid arguing point. Using other countries who don't have our rights or standard of living as a standpoint on "how would you feel if you lived there." I don't live there so while maybe my happiest day is Going on a All Inclusive Vacation and my worst is someone bullying me you can't compare these things. They could be happier finding a 1$ bill in the garbage than I could ever feel in my life and their stress level could be the same when maybe they don't have food to eat and are scared of being killed as mine would be getting bullied.

We have set our standard of living at a certain level that anything below triggers stress and anything above happiness. Their standard of living is much less than ours so anything below or above that line triggers a similar reaction.

I feel it's invalid to compare the two.

[Celephais]

I feel it's invalid to compare the two.
I see what you're saying and I think that actually goes a bit more towards my point... we here in Canada/America coddle. This is breeding a society that can't handle a broken nail or when britney spears gets made fun of. This is breeding people who disdane the rough men that actually keep them safe, and who would think that simply telling someone who is stealing their liberty that what they're doing is wrong, without acting, is the correct response.

We're living in a very bright age, but it's foolish to think we shouldn't be prepared for a dark one. We've upsurred evolutionary improvement by leapfrogging all the other species, and as our society develops we are reaching the point where we don't 'need' to develop anymore and individuals falling below the norm get by just fine.

I'm not suggesting we make some sort of master race or something dramatic like exposure for those unfit, but I imagine this man's "worse days" were when he wasn't a woman, so for him to take his own life during what would be a 'better life' than he was used to, doesn't hold up.

Also I've always wanted to post the exposure picture
http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/300/300_skulls.jpg

[Drisco]

I see what you're saying and I think that actually goes a bit more towards my point...

I seem to have done this a few times in the thread. I'm very poor at making my point clear on paper. I actually have a hard time thinking about and seeing if my point is right until I talk it out. I sometimes ponder for a minute, say my point and when I get to explain it the first time orally it's not until doing so that I realize if I was right or wrong.

I usually have to talk/debate with my friends and siblings before I can form my own opinion clearly and know what I stand for on topics/issues.

[Latrinsorm]

The difficulties faced by middle class individuals in developed countries are incredibly inane. ... I imagine this man's "worse days" were when he wasn't a woman, so for him to take his own life during what would be a 'better life' than he was used to, doesn't hold up.According to the author of the article, the person in question was no longer leading a publicly transgendered life, but let's put that aside for the moment. You can make a mental picture of yourself losing children, or dying of inescapable cancer, or being afflicted with Alzheimer's, but can you possibly understand what any of those things actually feels like? How could anyone ever hope to? A nice pair of slacks and a mid-range sedan are not going to change what people fundamentally are: destructible.

[Celephais]

I seem to have done this a few times in the thread. I'm very poor at making my point clear on paper. I actually have a hard time thinking about and seeing if my point is right until I talk it out. I sometimes ponder for a minute, say my point and when I get to explain it the first time orally it's not until doing so that I realize if I was right or wrong.

I usually have to talk/debate with my friends and siblings before I can form my own opinion clearly and know what I stand for on topics/issues.
That's a very good thing, I certainly think my opinion on the topic has changed as I've learned about it and with experience. This is just a slice of my opinion on the subject right now. Properly expressing it is a whole other matter, which is why the internet is such a difficult place to try to develop ideas, people like to harp on miscommunications (the political threads on this board are particularly terrible), and I'm certainly not innocent of it (for example my picking on TheE in that last post... but he can take it).

I think I'm on the level with you that emotions and stress are measures of relativeity, but I don't think this specific case can be applied, unless all that time he spent as a man, wanting to be a woman, he had the 'hope' that he would feel right when he was a woman, and when he finally made the transformation it wasn't what he had hoped for.

I do think it's okay to look at other countries when talking about an internalized struggle for a person that doesn't fit into the roles society has cast for them, because it's an emotional hardship that occurs in every country. I might agree if we talked about someone losing their job on wallstreet and committing suicide, as compared to someone whose lived their whole lives in poverty losing their job, as that's entering a struggle they haven't been prepared for.

[Celephais]

According to the author of the article, the person in question was no longer leading a publicly transgendered life, but let's put that aside for the moment. You can make a mental picture of yourself losing children, or dying of inescapable cancer, or being afflicted with Alzheimer's, but can you possibly understand what any of those things actually feels like? How could anyone ever hope to? A nice pair of slacks and a mid-range sedan are not going to change what people fundamentally are: destructible.
Sympathy vs Empathy, I don't think I know what he felt. People are fundamentally creatures of will, he failed the gom jabbar. There is nothing so emotionally devestating that a human being cannot use force of will to overcome. Not all human beings, but some. You run, right Latrin? You know about the wall, you know about overcoming it, and how it feels at the peak and afterwards, and that it's not physicality that's overcoming it.

At the same time I'm also a believer in the chemistry of the mind, if the proper chemical isn't there or hasn't built up, then that thought, that will to overcome just isn't happening, I believe everything we do mentally is controlled by physical chemicals.

[thefarmer]

Suicide is a cowardly and permanent solution because they didn't want to solve the problem. There's no good justification or rationalization for it.

Not every problem has a solution (that isn't dying). For example, I would think that hospice patients have plenty of good justification and rationalization for suicide.

[CrystalTears]

Not every problem has a solution (that isn't dying). For example, I would think that hospice patients have plenty of good justification and rationalization for suicide.
In that case it's understandable, but I still don't agree with it. That's when you make sure you have a will to stipulate that you not be put on life support.

[Clove]

Declaring that a solution (such as suicide) is unacceptable doesn't imply that there isn't a problem that requires a solution.

Suicides should not be used as leverage for any agenda except the "Don't Commit Suicide" campaign.


Not every problem has a solution (that isn't dying). For example, I would think that hospice patients have plenty of good justification and rationalization for suicide.Death is an inevitable solution to every problem that requires no participation on our part.

[Celephais]

Death isn't so much a solution as it is a workaround.

[Latrinsorm]

There is nothing so emotionally devestating that a human being cannot use force of will to overcome. Not all human beings, but some. You run, right Latrin? You know about the wall, you know about overcoming it, and how it feels at the peak and afterwards, and that it's not physicality that's overcoming it.Your analogy is very useful because I can push and run for half an hour or so, but nobody on earth could push through and run for a month, or a year, etc.: no human can survive sustained agony indefinitely. The distinction I'm getting at is that being transgendered is not an event, a discrete trauma that can be mercifully consigned to the past, repressed, grappled with, psychoanalyzed, etc. It is continuous and inexhaustible. The force of will can overcome this or any other trauma for a period, the question is only whether this period is on the order of a human lifespan.

[Celephais]

Your analogy is very useful because I can push and run for half an hour or so, but nobody on earth could push through and run for a month, or a year, etc.: no human can survive sustained agony indefinitely. The distinction I'm getting at is that being transgendered is not an event, a discrete trauma that can be mercifully consigned to the past, repressed, grappled with, psychoanalyzed, etc. It is continuous and inexhaustible. The force of will can overcome this or any other trauma for a period, the question is only whether this period is on the order of a human lifespan.
Didn't Moses walk the deserts for 40 years? There's also those people who run ultramarathons that are multiple days. But those are smartass answers, I agree with you, there are practical limits that people can endure, but people go beyond practical limits all the time, the human spirit is capable of enduring mental trauma beyond physical limitations, but it looks like his wasn't.

[Cephalopod]

I know a fellow who would argue that you can run for months...
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/home/blog_data/5/5/images/forrest-gump3.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Suicide being "cowardly" is a very modern idea. For hundreds of years, suicide was the only honorable way to get out of a shitty situation. Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher king himself, wrote "If the house burns, get out. Better to be without home, than to burn slowly."

[thefarmer]

In that case it's understandable, but I still don't agree with it. That's when you make sure you have a will to stipulate that you not be put on life support.

It's not always that simple and clear cut where a living will comes into play.



Death is an inevitable solution to every problem that requires no participation on our part.

No, but in some cases, speeding up the process is preferable.

[Celephais]

Suicide being "cowardly" is a very modern idea. For hundreds of years, suicide was the only honorable way to get out of a shitty situation. Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher king himself, wrote "If the house burns, get out. Better to be without home, than to burn slowly."
So is toilet paper.

I respect people who in their culture believe suicide to be an honorable thing to do, the post in the other thread about Budd is an example of a solution that ended up 'saving his families financial wellbeing' at the cost of them losing him in their lives, but I can see how he wouldn't want to have them go through his imprisonment so I can see how what he did was honorable.

Suicide because you're depressed... I don't think Marcus Aurelius would agree with that (based on my knowledge of him from movies and tv shows).

[Stanley Burrell]

Get a bunch of Romans to chase me for being a Jew and then do a backflip off of Masada.

[Stanley Burrell]

Hold on.