Michael Jordan.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Sure, I could've added "appreciation post" but I'm not a fucking dork.

So I was watching a DVD of His Airness at my friend's house last week and I was amazed once again at the greatness that is Jordan. Sure, I may be a little biased since I was born and raised in Chicago, but Michael Jordan is probably the greatest player in ALL of sports history. Walter Payton surpases him in character easily. Since it's so hard to choose between them, I'll just bask in the glory that is Chicago.

P.S. I'm a little drunk.

P.P.S. I hate Illinois nazis.

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Mint]

Who?




JUST KIDDING. Sheesh, even I know who he is. But isnt he washed up and old now?

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Sure, every athlete reaches that point. But no one dominated the NBA like Jordan did. Two three-peat championship runs, AND a season with what? 72 wins in an 82 game season? Jordan rules.

[Hulkein]

Wilt the Stilt is the best player in the history of the NBA. He actually forced them to alter the game.

[Tsa`ah]

Wilt was the man. Anyone with his height can stand under the basket with a bunch of white men and score 100 points in a single game.

Jordan however is or was the all time scoring champ. How many consecutive games, hell how many games total, did Jordan score a triple double?

The Stilt's game was under the basket and in the paint. Jordans game took place from one end of the court to the next. That is why he is the hands down best NBA player EVAR.

[Hulkein]

<Anyone with his height can stand under the basket with a bunch of white men and score 100 points in a single game>>

Let me know next time you see Shawn Bradley score over 20 points, heh.

I see what ya mean, Wilt had less competition, but still, he was nasty.

It's an argument that will always go on, though. :yes:

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by Hulkein]

[longshot]

Most selfish althelete ever...

Yes, he was the greatest on the court, but... ugh.

I guess being a piston fan it is impossible to have lots of respect for Michael Jordan.

I really did enjoy the Shakesperian tragedy that was his time with the Wizards though!

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Obviously every Chicago fan loathed when he came back to play for the Wizards. And watching the DVD I mentioned, it was obvious the reason why they lost to the Pistons three years in a row was because he tried to do it all himself. However, when he realized he couldn't the results were: Championship, Championship, Championship ... a year off to play baseball ... Championship, Championship, Championship. Yes, Jordan rules.

Edited twice because I'm still drunk.

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Caiylania]

Personally, my favorite player was a teammate of Jordan's.

Damn, what was his name? Big ears..... grey hare? You know... that guy.

<duck>

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Caiylania
Personally, my favorite player was a teammate of Jordan's.

Damn, what was his name? Big ears..... grey hare? You know... that guy.

<duck>

In the words of Dr. Evil...

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Caiylania]

What???? That guy could shoot somes HOOPS!

:nods:

[Parkbandit]

The truth about Jordan taking a year off 'for baseball' was really a plea agreement for his repeated violations for gambling.

Discuss.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The truth about Jordan taking a year off 'for baseball' was really a plea agreement for his repeated violations for gambling.

Discuss.

I've heard this before...

I'm not going to say it's true, because I can't of course... but this is something I would very much like to believe.

I hate Michael Jordan. He is easily the most selfish athlete of all time.

[TheEschaton]

Come on, any love for Sir Charles?


Forget Bird, Magic (though he ranked a close second for me as a child), forget Jordon and his team of goons constantly feeding him he ball.

Sir Charles was the bizzomb. Obviously not the best player, but one of the best people in the game.

I loved his commercial, "I am not a role model."

-TheE-

Michael Jordan is dead to me. He died after he said I will never play for another team but the Chicago Bulls.
And he came back
I care nothing for him.

[Edaarin]

Watch his top 10 dunks on that DVD. There's a sick one (I think it's #1 or #2) where Pippen misses a free throw, and Jordan comes flying in from the wing, passes 5 guys, and slams it.

Jordan didn't have as many triple doubles as you might think. I think he had at most around 30-35. The Big O, Larry, Magic, Grant Hill, and Jason Kidd all have more, just off the top of my head. They didn't keep track of things like blocks when Wilt played, and supposedly if they did he would have had a career AVERAGE of a triple double (I don't know, I've never seen a full televised game of him).

Magic is a disgrace. He didn't know when to let go, he made 2 comebacks too many. Watching him lug his 300 something bulk around in a 3on3 tournament was just painful. I remember watching his press conference to announce he had AIDS, and I remember all the effort he put into assuring everyone that he wasn't gay. All the sex stories he told were sickening, I don't want to know who he banged in the elevator, I don't want to know about hotel orgies, I don't want to know that he cheated on his girlfriend/wife every damn chance he got.

[Soulpieced]

I think Jordan is the most transcendent athlete ever.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Come on, any love for Sir Charles?


Forget Bird, Magic (though he ranked a close second for me as a child), forget Jordon and his team of goons constantly feeding him he ball.

Sir Charles was the bizzomb. Obviously not the best player, but one of the best people in the game.

I loved his commercial, "I am not a role model."

-TheE-

"Fans they boo me,
So I spit on them,
and they sue me"

Barkley was awesome, I saw him numerous times in Phoenix when I was in college. Ah, those were good years, with Majere, Barkley, KJ, Ainge even.

[TheEschaton]

Phoenix was my TEAM!

I was always Phoenix (Barkley, KJ) or NY (Ewing, Starks) in NBA Jam.


Greatest basketball game ever, by the way.

-TheE-

[DeV]

I think Jordan is one of the greatest bastketball players. Im not saying he's number one, but he is definitely an icon. On top of being cocky, a smart business man, a father, a son, a husband, a gambler, and a human being who's not perfect. Who can blame him. Yes, he was a selfish on the court and I think he went through alot of changes when his father died, but Jordan made himself a success.

Also, I might be a little biased being from Chicago.. Just my opinion. I think when it comes down to it his greatness arose from his fame worldwide, and not just his talent on the court.

[Atlanteax]

Jordan was the embodiment of the NBA for several years. He defined what Basketball was.

It'd be much easier to say that he was the greatest NBA player ever, if he had an on-court and off-court personality that was pro-team and a charismatic role-model.

More often than not, he was utterly full of himself. Which likely led to his failed years of resurgence with the Washington Wizards that will permanently put a downer on what was otherwise an amazing NBA career.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Round Mound of Rebound makes an awesome sportscaster btw.

[crazymage]

I dont know how you can say hes greatest in sports..Hank Aaron, barry sanders, joe montana, marino.. hell before griffey got injured every other day he couldve been top of alot of lists.

[Tsa`ah]

Comparing Barkley to Jordan is like comparing a v-6 powered mustang to an ls1 powered z-28. It's not a pretty comparison.

Barkley couldn't hold his own against Jordan, and many a forward and guard often ate their words when stating they were the only person in the game who could shut Jordan down.

Anyone who followed the Bulls before they went on their championship run can tell you ... The Bulls didn't start winning championships until Jordan started bringing the other 4 people on the court into the game.

Check the all time stats on nba.com ... Count how many times Sir Sits-a-lot is listed in the top 30 and how many times he is ranked above Jordan. For such a huge ball hog, Jordan averaged 5.2 assists per game, which lands him #30 on the ALL TIME LIST. Over his entire career he earned 5,633.

[Galleazzo]

Best player in history? Maybe.

Most dominant? Who are you freaking kidding? ONLY 6 championships? Suuuuure.

First he leads his team to back-to-back NCAA championships. Then he goes right to leading the US to Olympic gold. THEN he goes right to leading his NBA team as a rookie to the championship. 11 titles. 13 years. No dumb nicknames needed. Bill Russell. THE Man.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Caiylania
Personally, my favorite player was a teammate of Jordan's.

Damn, what was his name? Big ears..... grey hare? You know... that guy.

<duck>

Kerr?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

LOL. She meant Bugs.

[Hulkein]

Hah. Space Jam? Never seen it so it didn't click. Well Kerr has grey hair kind of (didn't notice the 'hare' part, figured it was a typo, lol) and big ears also. Pretty funny.

[Edited on 3-16-2004 by Hulkein]

[Ylena]

Actually, Jordan took two years off during that failed baseball experiment, because my Rockets won the championship in '94 and '95.

Jordan was awesome, no doubt, but I want to recognize the greatness of Hakeem Olajuwon as well. Character, class, charisma. It was a thing of beauty just to watch him do his own warm-up drills before shoot-arounds. In his prime, he had some unbelievable moves, and his Dreamshake was so sweet. I think it was '94 when he won MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, and the finals MVP. Nobody could touch him.

The year they swept the Magic in 4, Hakeem absolutely took Shaq to school. Shaq still gives Hakeem credit for making him a much better player -- Hakeem showed him that footwork mattered. Some of my favorite sports memories are those two championship seasons, when I would have my hiney planted in the same chair in the same bar for all the playoff games, because of course, they won when I was sitting there!

Heh, I was also responsible for the Angels 2002 World Series, because I was at games 3-4 when they beat the Yankees, game 5 when they took the Twins out for the division, and games 2 and 7 of the Series. I could only get one ticket to game 1, so I graciously let Gary go.. they lost that one. Heh.

God, I love sports.

[Latrinsorm]

Big O averaged a triple double over an entire season. That's got to count for something.

[peam]

http://cache.nba.com/media/history/bill_370_laimbeer.jpg

[Lord Deprav]

Micheal Jordan was not only the greatest basketball player of all time, but one of America's great Icon's of all time. You could go out on the street and ask anyone to name a sports player from each sport. What names are the going to come up with? Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky, Montana. (there might be a different oppinion on football, but everyone knows him, elways, jackson, ect.)

But who made sports into what they have become today? Micheal Jordan. He wasn't the first professional athlete to advertise obviously, but he is the most well-known. He has made helped make the sporting business into a multi-million dollar business. Basketball which was so far behind the other sports for the longest time, signed their first million dollar contract before football and hockey! I am not saying this was because of Jordan, but he contribute to it majorly. He showed that a players worth is more than his athletic ability.

What made Micheal Jordan so big? He was a down to earch guy. Not the most attractive when he first started. He related to people. He didn't play hs basketball very much. He wasn't the greatest at NC. He was an average person/player. Then he made it big. Which gives people hope.

Deprav
P.S. Micheal Jordan created Nike without ever saying a word.

[Galleazzo]

And 20 years ago it was Bird-Magic, and a few years before that it was Dr. J, and a few years before THAT ...

There'll always be some hyped superstar in some sport, the same way there's always a bad boy (Dennis who?). Next year, 3 years from now, it'll be someone new.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
And 20 years ago it was Bird-Magic, and a few years before that it was Dr. J, and a few years before THAT ...

There'll always be some hyped superstar in some sport, the same way there's always a bad boy (Dennis who?). Next year, 3 years from now, it'll be someone new.

Of course. But they'll never dominate the game like Jordan did. Of course he was a ball hog, no one could deny that. But the reason for it is because NO ONE could stop him.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Of course. But they'll never dominate the game like Jordan did. Of course he was a ball hog, no one could deny that. But the reason for it is because NO ONE could stop him.
And no one dominated the game like X did, X = Mikan, Cousy, Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Erving, Malone ...

Take your pick, it's been said about him.

[Latrinsorm]

I thought you were talking about Xcalibur for a second, I didn't even knew he played basketball. Then I got less dumb. :D

Bird/Magic changed the game for the better. Jordan didn't.

[Valthissa]

Had you said -

Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the last quarter of the twentieth century in North America - I'd probably agree

ALL of sports history? really?

C/Valth

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Galleazzo
And 20 years ago it was Bird-Magic, and a few years before that it was Dr. J, and a few years before THAT ...

There'll always be some hyped superstar in some sport, the same way there's always a bad boy (Dennis who?). Next year, 3 years from now, it'll be someone new.

Of course. But they'll never dominate the game like Jordan did. Of course he was a ball hog, no one could deny that. But the reason for it is because NO ONE could stop him.

Yah know me and my buddy were talking about that some what tonight on our way to the cavs game. He said his favorite commercial of Jordan was a Nike commercial. Jordan just finished a game and was in his suit and walking past reporters and stuff. He was talking to himself in his head. It finished with "but do they know when they gave me the ball with 1 second left in my career, I missed 46 times." and thats how it ends. I remembered it instantly and thought about this topic.

Deprav

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Valthissa
Had you said -

Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the last quarter of the twentieth century in North America - I'd probably agree

ALL of sports history? really?

C/Valth

I referred to him as an Icon. Greatest sports player of all time? Cobb, Bonds, Ripken, Gerhig, Gretzky, Howe, Stockton, Jordan, Ryan, ...the list goes on. Basically everyone has a great moment at one time or another in their career. We, the fans, the media, determine how great that moment is and whether they are great in our mind. Personally, the greatest baseball player I have studied is Cobb or Williams. What I have seen in my lifetime-Bonds, Gwynn, Maddux and Roberto Alomar. There are a few others for baseball I could name who I would consider the greatest I have seen.

Deprav

[TheEschaton]

The greatest moment I have in sports?

After Super Bowl XV, after Scott Norwood missed The Kick (tm), the Bills came back to half a million (which is a lot in Buffalo) fans in Niagara Square. They introduced Scott, and the crowd, by far, cheered the loudest, and longest for him.

At that point, he started choking up, and said, "I have never felt more loved than in this one moment, right here, right now."

For a 9 1/2 year old kid, that did it for me. I can remember that moment as if I just came back from that rally.

-TheE-

[Lord Deprav]

Yah there are so many moments. The two that have always truely stood out to me would be Ripken breaking the streak. I choked up myself. A man of so much to so many people. 98 homerun chase of Sosa and Mark will always live with me. I always choke up watching that movie 61.

Deprav

[Soulpieced]

After Super Bowl XV, after Scott Norwood missed The Kick (tm), the Bills came back to half a million (which is a lot in Buffalo) fans in Niagara Square. They introduced Scott, and the crowd, by far, cheered the loudest, and longest for him.

.

Norwood is a JMU alumni.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I'd just like to point out that I admitted I was drunk during that post, so please take the "greatest of all time" comment with a grain of salt, as they say.

[peam]

No Laimbeer love?

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by longshot
Most selfish althelete ever...

Yes, he was the greatest on the court, but... ugh.



Yessssss longshot.

I have long disliked MJ simply for the fact that he's selfish, and the type of guy who can't make a graceful exit from a sport that embraced him because of his burning desire to stroke his own fucking ego.

-K

[Edaarin]

A year or so ago, I would have felt the same way.

That was prior to being witness to Mariah Carey's sendoff of MJ during halftime of the All Star Game. Ladies, take notes, that's how to fill a dress.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Yessssss longshot.

I have long disliked MJ simply for the fact that he's selfish, and the type of guy who can't make a graceful exit from a sport that embraced him because of his burning desire to stroke his own fucking ego.

-K

So many players have big egos. Jeter, T.O., Iverson. Don't always judge a book buy his cover. MJ is a great man

Deprav

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Yessssss longshot.

I have long disliked MJ simply for the fact that he's selfish, and the type of guy who can't make a graceful exit from a sport that embraced him because of his burning desire to stroke his own fucking ego.

-K

You have described 95% of the NBA from inception to present day.

[TheEschaton]

So many players have big egos. Jeter, T.O., Iverson. Don't always judge a book buy his cover. MJ is a great man.


That's why all three of those players suck monkey balls.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
That's why all three of those players suck monkey balls.Ditto. And that's not just because I'm a Mets fan.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

So many players have big egos. Jeter, T.O., Iverson. Don't always judge a book buy his cover. MJ is a great man.


That's why all three of those players suck monkey balls.

-TheE-

Iverson sucks balls. I hate Jeter...(refer to my website that I created about him named "Satan") but he is so good. and T.O. speaks for himself...literally. But what about players like Clemns who has the biggest ego in the world. He hadn't even hit 300 games and started a controversy over whether he will get in the hall as a Yankee or Red Sock. Is he wrong for havin such a big ego. I truely despise the guy, but I admit it I went to a game where he could have had history happen (299 in Detroit) but I can't take away from him what he has accomplished.

~D

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Yessssss longshot.

I have long disliked MJ simply for the fact that he's selfish, and the type of guy who can't make a graceful exit from a sport that embraced him because of his burning desire to stroke his own fucking ego.

-K

You have described 95% of the NBA from inception to present day.

Meh, I feel there's a difference in MJ's refusal to accept that his time in the limelight is over. I mean c'mon... going out the way he did with the Wizards as big fat losers... had he retired (for real) the first time, he might be looked at a lot differently. But he couldn't handle the loss of adoration, the screaming fans... so he went back, quit, went back again. Can we say... desperate for attention?

-K

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
The greatest moment I have in sports?
I got 3 of them, where I was in the stands to see them. I'll tell you about two.

May 18, 1990. Springfield Civic Center. Jeff Rohlicek putting in a redirect from Wayne McBean (Alyssa Milano's erstwhile sweetie) to give the Springfield Indians the championship over Rochester in OT.

December 3, 1987. Boston Garden. Ray Bourque giving Phil Esposito the jersey off of his back. Bruins fans will know what that was about.

The 3rd is December 5, 1999. That one's private.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
[I got 3 of them, where I was in the stands to see them. I'll tell you about two.

December 3, 1987. Boston Garden. Ray Bourque giving Phil Esposito the jersey off of his back. Bruins fans will know what that was about.



I am not a Boston fan, but I knew about it. Did you know that Espositp though presented Bourque his number jersey 77 when it got retired in Boston?

Deprav

[Galleazzo]

Yep. Wasn't there for that one, I was out of town, but I'd heard. Good on Phil, he said when his own number got retired that he'd be there when Boston retired Ray's, and he was.

[Methais]

Jordan sucks.

Bird rules, and is an icon of what basketball was when it was still a white man's game.

Kind of like how Headbangers' Ball is an icon of what MTV used to be before it became RapHipHopRealWorldTV.

No this isn't an anti-black post, so piss off.

Hulk Hogan r teh pwn

[Warriorbird]

Jordan was a brilliant player. He had to cope with a whole lot of things. I don't blame him for getting wealthy. I don't blame him for betting... he didn't do it Pete Rose style. I don't blame him for going back on the Wizards... when you're that high up there and out for the glory, the thought of returning to it must be a powerful drug. I could fault him a bit... for the issues with his father and sister... but certainly not blame him.

I saw him play two times. What I remember most though is him in a game versus the Pacers, just flying free... launching right from the foul line... over their entire defense for a reverse dunk.

[Methais]

Baseball needs to let Pete Rose back in. I was listening to an interview with him on the radio a few weeks ago. He's a cool guy.

He's also recently been inducted into the WWE Celebrity Hall of Fame. w00t!

[Warriorbird]

Yah. Despite it all, he was a stunningly brilliant player. Other folks who did wrong are in.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I wanna be like Mike.

http://www.aizuddindanian.com/voi/images/jordan.jpg

[Methais]

.

[Methais]

.

[Galleazzo]

Pete Rose is a liar and a cheat.

And people say he didn't really hurt his team 'cause he bet on his team to win.

Y'know, a manager who needs to win TODAY's game might make a lot of bad decisions to do it.

Do you play Kal Daniels because he's a fucking great hitter even though you're ruining his freaking career by not letting him rest? He was a sure Hall of Fame hitter before his legs disintegrated.

Do you maybe pitch Browning or Jackson a hundred more innings than your #3 pitcher and TWO hundred more than your #4 pitcher? Denny Jackson got screwed that last full year Pete managed; he never came within 10 wins or half a run a game ERA of his '88 total again, and Browning pretty much the same.

You got a monster ace reliever in John Franco and you need to win to get that jack. Sure, he pitched an inning yesterday and two innings the day before, but you need him now. Or maybe do you rest Franco because you know you've got a bet on TOMORROW's game and you want him ready even though you need him now?

Maybe bump Jose Rijo a start so you're sure he'll start that day?

[Edited on 3/29/2004 by Galleazzo]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I hate this saying, but it applies here...

Pwned:
http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v130/ThisOtherKingdom/Jordan1.jpg

And...

Pwned:
http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v130/ThisOtherKingdom/Jordan2.jpg

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Pete Rose is a liar and a cheat.He didn't cheat while he was playing. I understood the Hall of Fame as a collection of the greatest players. I didn't know there was this whole morality business involved, and frankly there shouldn't be.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I understood the Hall of Fame as a collection of the greatest players. I didn't know there was this whole morality business involved, and frankly there shouldn't be.
You understood wrong. Maybe there shouldn't be, but when they let Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte in first, we'll talk about Petey.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Lord Deprav

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Yessssss longshot.

I have long disliked MJ simply for the fact that he's selfish, and the type of guy who can't make a graceful exit from a sport that embraced him because of his burning desire to stroke his own fucking ego.

-K

So many players have big egos. Jeter, T.O., Iverson. Don't always judge a book buy his cover. MJ is a great man

Deprav

I hate Iverson and I'm from Philly. I hated the guy even when he brought the 76er's to the Championship. The guy is a punk. He's good, but that doesn't mean you don't show up to practice to support the other players....

His FG% is like .333, and the guy just keeps shooting. Seriously, PASS THE FUCKING BALL! When you can't make a shot, don't keep shooting!

TO.... I'll have to wait and see. The guy is great, I give him that. The sharpie and pom pom thing was amusing to me. It's football to me. I HATE the new taunting rules. I just hope he learns to keep his mouth shut and play the game..

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I understood the Hall of Fame as a collection of the greatest players. I didn't know there was this whole morality business involved, and frankly there shouldn't be.
You understood wrong. Maybe there shouldn't be, but when they let Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte in first, we'll talk about Petey.

First Latrinsorm, let me explain something about the Hall. It is not just for players. It is for people who have dedicated themselves to a life of baseball. Take Bob Euchre for example. Do you think he would be there for his playing career, I highly doubt it. But after his coach decided he couldn't get a ball out of the infield, he dedicated himself to be a sports announcer. If you look through the Hall you will see writers, announcers, owners, coaches, umpires, ect.

Secondly Galleazzo, Eddie Cicotte should not be in the hall. Shoeless Jackson, well too much controversy for him ever to be let in. Buck Weaver, now he was screwed. Never hall of fame stats, but he was young and could have been.

Anyways Pete Rose if a cocksucker and he considers himself not even human. He doesn't care about anyone but himself. He cheated the game and doesn't deserve to get in. (I personally do not hold a grudge against him, but my friend sean went up to Pete and asked him for his autograph and he told sean to fuck off)

Deprav
At least he didnt ask for cash.

[Galleazzo]

On the numbers, Eddie Cicotte had a borderline HOF career. 24th lowest ERA of all time, makes the career leaders on a few other measures.

And no, he shouldn't get in any more than Rose should. That's sort of the point.

[Lord Deprav]

Agreed. Cicotte admitted to accepting money. Unfortuanately he did get ripped off. One of two ways. First Cominsky wouldn't let him pitch a game where he could have had number 30 in the wins book which would have given him a 10k bonus. He was ripped off there. He also was screwed along with the other 8 by Landis. Up until that season, gamblin on baseball was pretty common. It never was talked about amongst the players, but it wasn't illegal.