Legal question

[droit]

So I have a...theoretical... situation I'd like some legal advice on. Say there's a guy and a girl with a long romantic history. The girl has been jerking around the guy for a while instead of giving him the benefit of a clean break. Eventually, she decides to just ignore the situation and unilaterally ends communications with the guy. Then, a short time later, she shows up at the guy's martial arts class (she lives in another town, so she came up specifically for class) with her new boyfriend in tow, pretending like nothing ever happened. This martial art class has frequent full contact sparring sessions and all students have signed official liability waivers. Now, say the girl gets into the sparring ring with the guy and he say, breaks her nose... can said guy be charged with a crime or sued for damages?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[thefarmer]

If she's already signed, I don't see how you could be guilty of breaking your ex's nose.

Also Pics.

[Liagala]

Did this theoretical guy break the girl's nose on purpose, or was it a true accidental injury during the sparring session?

[droit]

I'm not saying I did anything. However, in this example, it would be the girl's nose that was broken by the ex-boyfriend.

[droit]

Did this theoretical guy break the girl's nose on purpose, or was it a true accidental injury during the sparring session?

Good question. It's unclear, from a third persons perspective.

[Keller]

Was the harm within the scope of the activity?

[droit]

Was the harm within the scope of the activity?

Yes. Injuries like this occur frequently within this sport, though not in this particular class.

[4a6c1]

Wow. So you hit a civilian who has no (theoretical!) martial arts training. GOOD JOB.

They can always get a lawyer. But a waiver protects you. Did she sign it?

[ElvenFury]

You don't live on the Jersey shore, do you?

http://i50.tinypic.com/1e5u2a.gif

[droit]

Wow. So you hit a civilian who has no (theoretical!) martial arts training. GOOD JOB.

They can always get a lawyer. But a waiver protects you. Did she sign it?

No, she's been training this same martial art for several years. In fact, that's how they met. And yes, she signed the waiver.

[Keller]

Yes. Injuries like this occur frequently within this sport, though not in this particular class.

Well, she impliedly consented (by stepping onto the mat) and expressly consented (by signing the waiver) to the sport. The harm was within the scope of the sport.

That is my bar exam answer.

[Whimsi]

You don't live on the Jersey shore, do you?

http://i50.tinypic.com/1e5u2a.gif

That's not a girl, that's a tranny and therefore not a comparable comparison.

[Keller]

edit to add: if this hypothetical interaction has not occurred, it is highly likely that it never should, as intent, at this point, would be clear.

[4a6c1]

No, she's been training this same martial art for several years. In fact, that's how they met. And yes, she signed the waiver.

Oh then all's fair in love and war.

[droit]

Let me just state flatly that I have not broken anyone's nose. This situation has not happened, nor is it likely to. I am curious about the legal implications, though.

[EasternBrand]

Well, she impliedly consented (by stepping onto the mat) and expressly consented (by signing the waiver) to the sport. The harm was within the scope of the sport.

That is my bar exam answer.

You have to ask whether the defendant acted within the scope of the consent, and whether the plaintiff's consent was informed, i.e., if the female was persuaded to consent with an understanding that "accidents happen," but the male intended to cause harm without telling the female, there's a strong argument that either the male acted outside the scope of consent or the female did not fully consent to the harm that was caused.

[Archigeek]

Theoretically, it would be smartest for the guy to decline to spar with her. Why would someone let themselves get into the position to do that sort of damage? Why would she bring her boyfriend to a sparring event? Odd set of theoretical circumstances.

Should the nose get broken though, it is possible that the guy could get sued or charged with a crime. A lot of that would depend on the willingness of the police to investigate, and what else happened that was witnessed by other people. For example: if they argued, he called her a bitch and then broke her nose and said, "you deservered that and you know it" in front of half a dozen people... he could be charged with assault. The burden of proof in a civil trial is much less, however the burden to act in that case is the girlfriend's.

[Whimsi]

edit to add: if this hypothetical interaction has not occurred, it is highly likely that it never should, as intent, at this point, would be clear.

If it hasn't happened yet, it'd be funny shit if she broke HIS nose first.

[4a6c1]

Quick now have Kranar delete this thread and PM us a youtube video later.

[droit]

So, if it can be proven that there was intent, the guy can be held legally liable, even though full contact sparring is explicitly a part of the liability waiver?

[NocturnalRob]

How are you going to prove intent anyway? Unless the guy flatly says, "I totally meant to break your nose just now," it's going to be pretty difficult.

[Keller]

You have to ask whether the defendant acted within the scope of the consent, and whether the plaintiff's consent was informed, i.e., if the female was persuaded to consent with an understanding that "accidents happen," but the male intended to cause harm without telling the female, there's a strong argument that either the male acted outside the scope of consent or the female did not fully consent to the harm that was caused.

It would be difficult to prove intent though, and that was my point.

I think would end at consent, because the harm was within the scope of the activity to which she consented.

[Keller]

So, if it can be proven that there was intent, the guy can be held legally liable, even though full contact sparring is explicitly a part of the liability waiver?

Yes.

[NocturnalRob]

Yeah, what Keller said!!

[droit]

Also, I don't know if this makes any difference, but the girl involved actually teaches this same martial art in her hometown. Both parties involved are instructors.

[NocturnalRob]

Both parties involved are instructors.
theoretically

[Celephais]

Yeah, what Keller said!!
YEah!!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/3630510488_d18e6c0d53.jpg

[NocturnalRob]

I'm still at the office, so it'd be more like this:

http://www.utilicast.com/newwebsite/elearning/high-five.jpg

[Celephais]

They don't look enthuized enough
http://tinyurl.com/yg5bukf

[Dr Kevorkian]

and I got all excited.

[NocturnalRob]

They don't look euthanized enough
fixed. i agree.

[EasternBrand]

How are you going to prove intent anyway? Unless the guy flatly says, "I totally meant to break your nose just now," it's going to be pretty difficult.

Well, all a jury would need to believe is that there's at least a >50% chance that there was intent. Given the backstory, it could pretty easily be inferred that there was.

[NocturnalRob]

Well, all a jury would need to believe is that there's at least a >50% chance that there was intent. Given the backstory, it could pretty easily be inferred that there was.
every member of the jury would have to believe it, yes. that is true.

[ElvenFury]

Well, all a jury would need to believe is that there's at least a >50% chance that there was intent. Given the backstory, it could pretty easily be inferred that there was.

And what if they do? What's the pay-out for breaking her nose? I say go for it.

[EasternBrand]

every member of the jury would have to believe it, yes. that is true.

Not necessarily; that would depend on the jurisdiction.

[droit]

Well, all a jury would need to believe is that there's at least a >50% chance that there was intent. Given the backstory, it could pretty easily be inferred that there was.

Really? That's how intent is handled by the legal system?

[Keller]

Also, I don't know if this makes any difference, but the girl involved actually teaches this same martial art in her hometown. Both parties involved are instructors.

There are special rules for experts, but due to my vintage and lack of review books in front of me, I think EB should respond to this one.

I do know that it's not a good fact for you. You will be held to a higher duty of care.

[EasternBrand]

And what if they do? What's the pay-out for breaking her nose? I say go for it.

For actual damages, probably not a whole lot besides the ER bill. But pain and suffering damages? Man, you can never predict that shit.

[Keller]

Well, all a jury would need to believe is that there's at least a >50% chance that there was intent. Given the backstory, it could pretty easily be inferred that there was.

Given the backstory, there is a little thing called jury nulification.

:)

[Marl]

you should do this...it looks kinda like a martial arts move?



http://www.tavernheroes.com/forum/Attachments/CuntPunt_1.jpg

[NocturnalRob]

that's a weird place to keep your nose.

or is it?

[EasternBrand]

Really? That's how intent is handled by the legal system?

On the civil side, yes. The standard is just "more likely than not," although the plaintiff bears the burden of proof, so the female here would have to convince a jury that there was at least a >50% chance.


There are special rules for experts, but due to my vintage and lack of review books in front of me, I think EB should respond to this one.

I do know that it's not a good fact for you. You will be held to a higher duty of care.

I don't know how the experts would be handled, but chances are it wouldn't alter the analysis too much.


Given the backstory, there is a little thing called jury nulification.

:)

There's ALWAYS a little thing called jury nullification! This would be especially helpful if the male could pack the jury with male cast members from Jersey Shore, but you can't argue for nullification or imply that they should nullify (at least in the criminal context, I assume there's a similar rule in civil trials).

[TheEschaton]

In this case, if he was considered an expert, he might be held to a higher standard (IE, no serious injury) in a sparring session, where breaking one's nose could be seen as a "wrong" outcome. Experts are held to a higher standard than reasonableness. In certain expert cases (but probably not this one, since the area of expertise is literally one in which injury should occur if done properly), this can turn into strict liability - you're an expert, it shouldn't have happened, it happened, you're at fault.

-TheE-

[EasternBrand]

Isn't the whole concept of experts and standard of care a negligence issue? This would likely be an intentional tort, so I don't think duty of care plays a role.

[thefarmer]

In this case, if he was considered an expert, he might be held to a higher standard (IE, no serious injury) in a sparring session, where breaking one's nose could be seen as a "wrong" outcome. Experts are held to a higher standard than reasonableness. In certain expert cases (but probably not this one, since the area of expertise is literally one in which injury should occur if done properly), this can turn into strict liability - you're an expert, it shouldn't have happened, it happened, you're at fault.

-TheE-

If both are instructors, wouldn't both be considered experts and negate that?

[Celephais]

:sigh: ... psycological damage. Just have a hotter chick there with you. Or, and I know this is silly, be the grownup. Hell your indifference would likely be more painful, you breaking her nose tells her she's still got her claws in you.

[Tisket]

:sigh: ... psycological damage. Just have a hotter chick there with you.

^^

[Archigeek]

:sigh: ... psycological damage. Just have a hotter chick there with you. Or, and I know this is silly, be the grownup. Hell your indifference would likely be more painful, you breaking her nose tells her she's still got her claws in you.

I tend to agree that the right answer is to be the grownup and just let it go, but I have to ask, why would a woman show up for this and bring the new boyfriend with? There are really only two possible reasons: A) she's either so into this, that she's willing to deal with the uncomfortableness of it all and wants to share her love of martial arts wtih the new boyfriend, or B) she still wants you.

So, you have a couple of options: A) have someone else in the class break her nose instead, and then provide comfort to her while the hotty you brought along draws the attention of the new boyfriend! She'll be furious at him and remember just what it was she liked so much about you... and give you make up sex. B) just stay away from the whole situation, because she's already gone and the drama just isn't worth it. In the long run it nets you nada. Get yourself a new girlfriend.

Personally I'd go with B, because none of the benefits of A are worth the trouble in the long run.

[Bobmuhthol]

Really? That's how intent is handled by the legal system?

As has been said, for civil cases, yes. But the way the situation is being described there is almost no chance that this woman-abusing beast could be charged with a crime (let alone subsequently convicted). Obviously a suit for damages is possible and I could definitely see monetary damages being awarded, but no sane judge is going to give pain and suffering or any punitive damages here.

[Clove]

The bitch had it coming.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm no expert obviously but could she seriously get anything given the circumstances?

You should have got a restraint order. She sounds like a dumb bitch. And said guy that's not you should flatten all of their tires.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

What has always worked for me is moving on... it's always easy to forget the last girl with the next girl. Course, I've never had a woman break up with me, I was always doing the breaking up.

[NocturnalRob]

Course, I've never had a woman break up with me, I was always doing the breaking up.
http://i25.tinypic.com/2co1w02.jpg

[Asrial]

Well, she impliedly consented (by stepping onto the mat) and expressly consented (by signing the waiver) to the sport. The harm was within the scope of the sport.That's my thought too.

Do NOT lose that signed waiver and in fact.. make a copy of it and file the original someplace safe. That's going to be the key if anything further develops.

Also...

The 'guy' should downplay the breakup and focus more on the physicality of a sparring session.

Is she at an expert level? That might induce a more vigorous session. How did the break happen? A shot to the face she didn't dodge or block? Maybe she juked when she should have jived?

*shrugs*

[Sean of the Thread]

What has always worked for me is moving on... it's always easy to forget the last girl with the next girl. Course, I've never had a woman break up with me, I was always doing the breaking up.


I thought your ex cheated on you and dumped you?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I thought your ex cheated on you and dumped you?

Naw, it's true she cheated on me, but I broke it off with her. I guess technically by cheating on me she ended it. Maybe, I dunno. She talked me into trying to make it work and I did for a few weeks (stupid voodoo punani) then I dumped her.

It makes me feel good that she has been married and divorced twice since I got away. I know, I shouldn't care but I do a little :)

[iJin]

Voodoo punani?


Intriguing.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I probably spelled it wrong, but there is a song called voodoo poonanny by Joe Rogan. Basically, it's about the crazy shit men do for cooter cause it is magical!

Here's a snippet of it, couldn't find the full dl.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/recsradio/radio/B00004WF29/ref=pd_krex_dp_001_012?ie=UTF8&track=012&disc=001

[Sean of the Thread]

OH that's right you caught her cheating and then dumped her. That's almost harder.

[Drew]

edit to add: if this hypothetical interaction has not occurred, it is highly likely that it never should, as intent, at this point, would be clear.

While I agree with your reasoning, assuming the girl doesn't know he posts on the PC, the chances of it being discovered are rather low (I'm sitting on a civil jury as we speak coincidentally).

[Tsa`ah]

Criminal no.

Civil ... no waiver makes on immune to a civil case. The waiver would come into play during the proceedings, but it boils down to the mood of the judge, who annoys him/her less, and who presents the most convincing and believable case.

[Clove]

Brought to you by the Law School of Life.

[AnticorRifling]

What martial arts are you taking where the teaching involves not walking away from a conflict and letting emotion drive your actions? And an instructor of said martial art, fail. She also failed on equal level for the same reasons. You guys are retarded for each other.

[Sean of the Thread]

OH YEAH THIS KIND!

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f143/sourforce/johnny.jpg

[ElvenFury]

What martial arts are you taking where the teaching involves not walking away from a conflict and letting emotion drive your actions? And an instructor of said martial art, fail. She also failed on equal level for the same reasons. You guys are retarded for each other.

Watch much Karate Kid? Maybe you should go break up their fight with your 1337 wax on/wax off skillz.

[Keller]

Strike hard.

Strike first.

No mercy.

[AnticorRifling]

Watch much Karate Kid? Maybe you should go break up their fight with your 1337 wax on/wax off skillz.


I watch robocop too doesn't mean I should try and build a robot out of a dead....brb new project.

[LOL BRIELUS]

Hrm, I see there is some unauthorized practice of law going on here. Let me have everyone's name and address so I can report all of you to the local state bar association. OP should have actually asked real lawyer! KTHX! :)

[AnticorRifling]

Not a DB thread, GTFO.

[Tsa`ah]

Brought to you by the Law School of Life.

Yet again brought to you by ...

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/rickosports/flash%20pix/leghumper.gif

[droit]

UPDATE: So last night went down pretty much as I predicted in my "theoretical" situation, except I took Kerl's excellent advice and removed myself from the ring the instant she entered it. She's not worth getting in legal trouble over. I explained in no uncertain terms that she was no longer welcome in our class and that I in fact do not want to see her ever again. Hopefully that will do the trick.

I think I just needed to vent my frustrations. Lots of terrible things run through the minds of the recently jilted, I guess.

[ElvenFury]

You should have broken her clavicle.

[Sean of the Thread]

With his penis.

[NocturnalRob]

With his penis.

clavicle =/ cervix

[Clove]

clavicle =/ cervix
Epic. Fucking. Win.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3362/epicyf5.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/img/userPics/1241100168_74291.jpg