Get your Colt Hides here.. NE vs IND tailgate...

[Madcap]

...

Predictions? ...


Brady: 320 yards .. 2 TDs QB rating of 125 in todays game

Manning: 280 yards, 1 TD 2 picks ...

Pats: 34

Ind: 17

[Parkbandit]

Homer.

I'll take the exact opposite of your predictions.

[peam]

This guy is a straight up hater and I like it.



/Manning is going to dominate tonight.

[Keller]

Manning 4 TDs, 1 INT, 400 yds.

Brady 2 TDs, 2 INTs, 340 yds.

Colts 38 - Patriots 20

[Madcap]

Right Brady will throw 2 picks against 1st year cornerbacks .. since kelvin hayden and marlon jackson are injured and bob sanders is out for the year... lmfao

Manning will dominate against the #4 defense in the NFL .. right... he has no running game this year, not like years past, no marvin harrison, no anthony gonzalez.. lol

[Bobmuhthol]

Patriots gonna win.

[peam]

Manning will dominate against the #4 defense in the NFL .. right... he has no running game this year, not like years past, no marvin harrison, no anthony gonzalez.. lol

Yeah, I overlooked that. All he has is those two scrubs Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

[Revalos]

I hate the Pats, but I really want them to win this game so that the Saints can beat them on MNF at the end of this month and cruise on to the Superbowl.

[Madcap]

Yeah, I overlooked that. All he has is those two scrubs Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

Right... against Brandon Meriweather, the defensive rookie of the year last year Jerod Mayo along with Adalius Thomas will be shadowing Clark .. with meriweather and Darius Butler or Bodden on wayne . the Pats have too much defense for either of those guys to be ANY factor.

While the colts have NO ONE that can contain Moss, Welker, Watson, Maroney catching screens or Faulk ... All they have is Dwight Freeney on defense.. that's it.. lol

[nub]

I say colts win.

[BigWorm]

Right Brady will throw 2 picks against 1st year cornerbacks .. since kelvin hayden and marlon jackson are injured and bob sanders is out for the year... lmfao

Manning will dominate against the #4 defense in the NFL .. right... he has no running game this year, not like years past, no marvin harrison, no anthony gonzalez.. lol

They picked off Matt Schaub last week who is having a pretty year. I love how you bash on the Colts rookies then tout a second year player (Meriweather).

[Madcap]

They picked off Matt Schaub last week who is having a pretty year. I love how you bash on the Colts rookies then tout a second year player (Meriweather).

get your facts straight..

Meriweather is a 3rd year player... he should have had the game winning interception in Superbowl 42 but he dropped it.. he's a hitting safety .. a punisher like Rodney Harrison was .. Harrison had better hands though..

but yeah.. 3rd year player, kthnx

[BigWorm]

get your facts straight..

Meriweather is a 3rd year player... he should have had the game winning interception in Superbowl 42 but he dropped it.. he's a hitting safety .. a punisher like Rodney Harrison was .. Harrison had better hands though..

but yeah.. 3rd year player, kthnx

Remember in Super Bowl 42 when the Patriots lost? Yeah, that was awesome.

[BigWorm]

Is he on the same steroids as Harrison?

(This message brought to you by T.O.)

[Madcap]

[QUOTE=BigWorm;1024500]Is he on the same steroids as Harrison?

(This message brought to you by T.O.)[/QUOTE

don't think so... but we will find out tonight when he LEVELS reggie wayne

I fail at quoting

[BigWorm]

Just wanted to make sure that you are sticking by your claim that both Wayne and Clark will have "no impact" in the outcome of tonight's game.

[Madcap]

Remember in Super Bowl 42 when the Patriots lost? Yeah, that was awesome.



can't win them all.. and it was an awesome superbowl... one of the best I have seen... Although they had that game won 4 times on the final drive, 3 guys dropped interceptions.. and David Tyree had the hand of god help him hold that ball to his helmet

[BigWorm]

can't win them all.. and it was an awesome superbowl... one of the best I have seen... Although they had that game won 4 times on the final drive, 3 guys dropped interceptions.. and David Tyree had the hand of god help him hold that ball to his helmet

If they only could have taped New York's pre-game warmup, they could have had that one!

[Madcap]

lol here we go .. the only thing illegal about what they did was WHERE they videotaped from... videotaping in itself is NOT illegal

[BigWorm]

People here in STL are still pissed about the 2001 SB. I got over it when the Colts beat the Bears.

[BigWorm]

Damn Rodney Harrison is slobbing Brady's nob big time on NBC.

[Keller]

Right Brady will throw 2 picks against 1st year cornerbacks .. since kelvin hayden and marlon jackson are injured and bob sanders is out for the year... lmfao

Manning will dominate against the #4 defense in the NFL .. right... he has no running game this year, not like years past, no marvin harrison, no anthony gonzalez.. lol

You're listing ALL the reasons that, especially after tonight's game, Manning is the best QB in the NFL.

PS - keep talking shit. It's going to be soooo sweet to re-read your BS after the game.

[BigWorm]

Despite Olberman being a huge douche, that Namath crack was hilarious.

I wanna kiss you...

[Madcap]

You're listing ALL the reasons that, especially after tonight's game, Manning is the best QB in the NFL.

PS - keep talking shit. It's going to be soooo sweet to re-read your BS after the game.


As long as if the Patriots win you come on here and EAT A HUGE FUCKING BOWL OF CROW.. cuz I sure as hell will..

[Keller]

As long as if the Patriots win you come on here and EAT A HUGE FUCKING BOWL OF CROW.. cuz I sure as hell will..

I'll be here.

[Madcap]

Good. :) ...

Glad to hear it... any last changes of minds?

[BigWorm]

Good. :) ...

Glad to hear it... any last changes of minds?

Sticking by your "NO IMPACT" claim?

[Madcap]

What no impact claim? ... That one of those 2 receivers is going to be a non factor? Sure am

[Xanator]

Pats haven't seen anything like Dallas Clark this season, and they haven't faced a really productive QB/WR combo (aside from Matt Ryan and Roddy White, I guess) so far this season. So I dunno, the defense has been a really pleasant surprise to this point, but they haven't played any juggernaut offenses and might get exposed a little tonight. I'm not sold on what I think has been an overachieving secondary, but the Colts are awfully thin there right now, too. Got a recipe for a shootout, really. Ought to be a fun game to watch either way.

The Pats have had a little bit of trouble with pass-catching backs. I think Addai has a decent game here. But if Larry Maroney doesn't suck, the Pats should pull it out.

I say Patriots 34-31.

[Madcap]

Darius Butler was picked by alot of scouts as the most underrated cornerback to come out of this past draft.. He's the real deal .. Bodden worries me sometimes but he's done a damn good job, and Wilhithe has been decent... the big factor is going to be CAN Shawn Springs contain Dallas Clark

[Madcap]

That would be Brandon Meriweather .. FLYING to the ball good open field tackle.

Nice.. 3 and out.. with Pats getting the ball after the half

[Madcap]

Bah! And a 3 and out for the Pats.. watch this be a 10-7 game lol

[BigWorm]

That would be Brandon Meriweather .. FLYING to the ball good open field tackle.

Nice.. 3 and out.. with Pats getting the ball after the half

Nice three and out

[Madcap]

Yeah I already said that....

[BigWorm]

Does that count as an impact?

[Madcap]

No? lol .. It's a first down... when they were on the 10 yard line... lol ... 1st catch of the day...

[Keller]

did you see that catch by the "no impact" Reggie Wayne?

[Madcap]

THAT was an impact catch... no excuse for him not being bumped.

as soon as the catches count towards the end of the game, lets not get ahead of ourselves.. Belicheck is a Bend-but-dont-break coach.. He'll concede yards, because they dont matter... points matter.

[BigWorm]

That's a catch for sure.

[Keller]

Oh, and the timeout that the "no impact" Reggie Wayne just stole from that shmuck in the sorority-cut patriots hoodie.

[BigWorm]

So Clark and Wayne have both made big catches on the second Colts drive of the game. Not looking good for your "NO IMPACT" claim.

[Madcap]

I dont think it was a catch, one foot wasn't touching but the angles arent good enough so it will probably go the Colts way

I stand corrected

[Madcap]

So Clark and Wayne have both made big catches on the second Colts drive of the game. Not looking good for your "NO IMPACT" claim.

youre redonkulous... a 1st and 10 pass on the 10 yard line, for 10-12 yards is a impact catch to you? ...lol.. The Wayne one I will concede.. but the Clark one was a standard catch

[BigWorm]

three feet in

[BigWorm]

Did you see who just caught that first down pass?

[Madcap]

Pats corners and safeties are giving too much of a cushion, they need to fly to the ball.

[Madcap]

Did you see who just caught that first down pass?


So he has 2 catches for 20 yards... both on first down.. lol .. come on now you are just trying to RUSH to try to point stuff out.

[Madcap]

Well no one said it was going to be 0-0

[Keller]

1 of 4 TDs for the best QB in the NFL.

[Madcap]

I saw that screen coming, I have no idea how they didn't

[BigWorm]

I saw that screen coming, I have no idea how they didn't

Good call Coach Rat.

On another note, huge play for my fantasy team since I have Manning and Addai.

[Madcap]

It was pretty obvious when they dropped containment, why he continued to rush the passer with Addai breaking forward I'll never know

[Madcap]

OOOOOOOOOOO BRADY WITH THE IMPACT QB KEEPER LAWLZ

[Madcap]

CHIRP MOTHER FUCKING CHIRP WHERES ALL THE TALKERS?!

[BigWorm]

damn

[Madcap]

damn

YEAH .. we got a couple guys too.


TD PATS! 7-7

[BigWorm]

I could read that run play from here. I don't see why they couldn't

[Madcap]

That one was obvious.. the screen however wasnt..lol

[Madcap]

THAT would be 4th down sir.

[BigWorm]

THAT would be 4th down sir.

It's a tied game dude. Slow your roll.

[Madcap]

tied just for now hopefully.. :)

[Madcap]

Thats an impact run.. ;)

[Keller]

1 of 2 TDs for the most overrated QB in the NFL.

[BigWorm]

Thats an impact run.. ;)

That was really poor tackling. Should have been stopped for a short gain.

[Madcap]

That was a good catch.. not as good as Reggie Wayne's ..but a good catch

[Madcap]

Im kind of glad the colts accepted that one... for some strange reason.

[Keller]

It's hard to overthrow Randy Moss, but Tom "the Asschin" Brady almost did it.

[Madcap]

almost? He DID Overthrow him lol

[Keller]

Almost INT 1 of 2 for Terribrady.

[Madcap]

Almost INT 1 of 2 for Terribrady.

Im lost on where the first one was... but key word being ALMOST that doesnt show up in the stat sheet

[Madcap]

Well you knew they'd get a sack eventually ... those two are too good...

But I'll take the lead. :)

[Keller]

Im lost on where the first one was... but key word being ALMOST that doesnt show up in the stat sheet

I predicted Asschin Terribrady would throw two interceptions.

I know you're a Masshole, but try to keep up.

[BigWorm]

Obviously would rather have gotten away with no points, but glad to see them limit it to a field goal.

[Madcap]

Would Brady's chin be considered a goatse?

[Madcap]

I beleive this would be ANOTHER PUNT?

[Latrinsorm]

Belicheck is a Bend-but-dont-break coach.. He'll concede yards, because they dont matter... points matter.
I saw that screen coming, I have no idea how they didn'tYou don't seriously still think Belichick is a good coach after SB 42, do you? The guy gave the game away on that 4th and 13 attempt.

[Madcap]

RANDY MOTHERFUCKING MOSS!

Bethea .. You've been MOSS'd

[Ardwen]

Pats have moss, pats gonna win

[Keller]

Notice you didn't even mention the most overrated QB in the NFL.

Randy Moss IS the best WR in the NFL (not considering upside).

Tom Brady IS the most overrated QB in the NFL.

[Madcap]

Overrated.. lol .. right... the people who get paid to cover this game just say he's one of the best to ever play the game.. lol

[Keller]

Overrated.. lol .. right... the people who get paid to cover this game just say he's one of the best to ever play the game.. lol

So why do you keep stroking Randy Moss's nutsack?

[Madcap]

Cuz Moss is unbeleivable ... Brady has never had a deep threat like him... and you see what he can do having a weapon like that

AHAHA!! Manning you pussy..

[Madcap]

I beleive this would be ANOTHER PUNT.

[Latrinsorm]

Overrated.. lol .. right... the people who get paid to cover this game just say he's one of the best to ever play the game.. lolIf they were such great talent scouts, how come they aren't being paid by a team?
Cuz Moss is unbeleivable ... Brady has never had a deep threat like him... and you see what he can do having a weapon like thatCulpepper managed 39 touchdowns with Moss (that's the sixth most ever in a season, btw), it's kind of hard to take the "oh well all Brady needed was a good receiver" statements seriously.

[Madcap]

Most of them are? lol

[Latrinsorm]

I'm pretty sure nobody who "covers the game" is being paid by a team, that would be a huge and probably illegal conflict of interest.

[Madcap]

We were referring to Talen scouts Latrinsorm

[Madcap]

TOUCHDOWN ... Patriots.... My predictions are looking real good....

On a side note... Stephen Gostkowski has a fucking hell of a boot.

[Willington]

Maybe this game will be the one Belichick and Brady wont run up the score to 50+

[Madcap]

Ok it wasnt BS

[Drevihyin]

This game has little meaning except for bragging rights.

[Latrinsorm]

We were referring to Talen scouts LatrinsormThis is what I meant, though: if these guys on TV were so good at evaluating talent, why wouldn't they be actual talent scouts instead of suits? NFL teams spend umpteen million dollars, they couldn't make the Greatest Coach Of All Time an offer he couldn't refuse?

[Madcap]

Alright my prediction is looking real good now.. if we can just hold them and score again. :)

[Madcap]

This is what I meant, though: if these guys on TV were so good at evaluating talent, why wouldn't they be actual talent scouts instead of suits? NFL teams spend umpteen million dollars, they couldn't make the Greatest Coach Of All Time an offer he couldn't refuse?


The guys on TV are just analysts....

TALENT scouts get paid by teams

[Madcap]

Good stand by the colts there.

[Madcap]

that could turn out to be a huge false start penalty

[Madcap]

lol pick for pick.

[BigWorm]

WTF Peyton?

[Madcap]

yeah that was a fuckin awful pass.

[Madcap]

lol fucking Maroney, should have kept Faulk in.. Maroney has never had a fumble problem but I don't trust him

[BigWorm]

Need to get some points off this turnover.

[Madcap]

Nice.. punt!

[Madcap]

Wes welker you are THE man

[Madcap]

This game is getting out of hand for Indy .. get your Crow sandwiches ready... not over yet though

[Madcap]

DAMN ... my Indy score prediction just got shot down

[BigWorm]

All they have is Dwight Freeney on defense.. that's it.. lol

May I introduce you to Robert Mathis?

[BigWorm]

Shit

[Madcap]

May I introduce Jonathan Wilhite?

[Ardwen]

more like may we introduce Duck number 2

[Madcap]

That was kind of BS, Butler was trying to make a play on the ball

[Madcap]

wow... wtf

[BigWorm]

AWESOME SPOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!11

[Keller]

They didn't even give Peyton a challenge.

I agree, wtf?

[Madcap]

you gotta tuck that ball in Faulk .. It's ok, lets hold 'em here Defense

[Keller]

This is the best QB in the NFL.

I don't care what defense you put on the field.

It's game.

[Madcap]

wow good win Colts, way to come back.. Belicheck wtf were you thinking

[Keller]

This is the best QB in the NFL.

I don't care what defense you put on the field.

It's game.

Quoted for truth.

[BigWorm]

"NO IMPACT" FOR THE TD

[Madcap]

amazing how you are all here now.. Where were you when the game looked over?

lol

[Ardwen]

So any idea why they went for it on 4th at all heh.
Possibly the strangest call by a coach I have seen this year.

[Keller]

wow good win Manning, way to come back.. Belicheck wtf were you thinking

Fixed.

[Madcap]

Amazing how you show up now... lol ... I have to lolz at that

[Androidpk]

wow good win Colts, way to come back.. Belicheck wtf were you thinking

wtf indeed. Horrible horrible horrible decision to go for it on 4th down.

[RSR]

It's amazing that people show up after the game is over? Some people actually enjoy watching the game, not just talking shit on a message board.

-Richard.

[Keller]

Pats: 34


The only thing you got right in this entire thread.

Epic thread. Thank you.

[Madcap]

Belicheck blew that game.. his job has to be in question now

[Drevihyin]

What idiot would go for it on fouth down from that location on the field.

[Keller]

his job has to be in question now

Could you be any dumber?

Just quit while you're not further behind.

[BigWorm]

Belicheck blew that game.. his job has to be in question now

You should burn his house down!

[Madcap]

Sorry that was the worst possible decision EVER... Belicheck basically gave up any shot at home field.. played horrid defenses for the last 10 minutes of that game...

[Madcap]

I just find it funny this thread was all crickets when the pats were up.. lol ...

[BigWorm]

Sorry that was the worst possible decision EVER... Belicheck basically gave up any shot at home field.. played horrid defenses for the last 10 minutes of that game...

Yeah Belicheck needs to play better defense. Big time.

Loving the interview with "NO IMPACT" Reggie Wayne right now.

[BigWorm]

Where is Anticor to gloat with us?

[Madcap]

I never said belicheck plays defenses, he CALLS DEFENSES .. lol ..'played horrible defenses' meaning the defenses he called.. lol but whatever its football, i'll take a shit the same way now as if the Patriots won... they should have won, but didn't good win Colts...

[Madcap]

only one who can gloat here is BigWorm .. Keller was no where to be found until the game was over.. lol.. anyway, goodnight folks!

[BigWorm]

Wow, they are really piling on Belicheck tonight. For good reason, but I'm a little surprised by it.

[Revalos]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Belichoke

Awesome game. Epic crow eating thread.

[Androidpk]

Wow, they are really piling on Belicheck tonight. For good reason, but I'm a little surprised by it.

I'm not the slightest bit surprised. That's gotta be one of the all time worst coaching decisions ever.

[Keller]

I'm not the slightest bit surprised. That's gotta be one of the all time worst coaching decisions ever.

Peyton Manning is on the other side with 2 minutes and a TO. It was a calculated decision.

[Revalos]

Peyton Manning is on the other side with 2 minutes and a TO. It was a calculated decision.

The going for it on 4th and 2 isn't as big as blowing two timeouts seconds earlier and then not being able to challenge the spot of the ball. Brady can share some of that blame. They should have had their shit together better than that for a 2 minute drill.

[Keller]

The going for it on 4th and 2 isn't as big as blowing two timeouts seconds earlier and then not being able to challenge the spot of the ball. Brady can share some of that blame. They should have had their shit together better than that for a 2 minute drill.

Ya.

And don't get me wrong, I think it was a bad choice. But it's not like you were handing the ball to a scrub QB who hadn't just scored 2 TDs on long drives in less than two minutes on the last two drives.

[Latrinsorm]

So any idea why they went for it on 4th at all heh.
Possibly the strangest call by a coach I have seen this year.To be fair, the average NFL play nets well over 2 yards (more than 5, actually), and the play they drew up is almost indefensible, it's just a question of execution by the players.

I can't believe that people are jumping on Belichick for this (a "stunning gamble", ESPN? seriously?), THIS of all things. It's 4th and TWO!! If you can't get two yards when you need it, you don't deserve to win anyway.

[Parkbandit]

amazing how you are all here now.. Where were you when the game looked over?

lol

In my defense.. I was watching the game.

All I have to say is this though:

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/him2076_450.jpeg

[TheEschaton]

Wow, that was an amazing game, glad the douchenozzles lost.

[ZeP]

You would think the Pats punt, but nothing is automatic and that's why they play the game etc etc.. if the punt was fucked up somehow then it would be "Brady/Moss/Welker coulda done it!" or if they converted it would be heralded as some mastermind move about "taking the ball out of Peyton's hands."

[AnticorRifling]

Odd, I would have expected an "I'm sorry" from the OP by now.

[Sean of the Thread]

Ya.

And don't get me wrong, I think it was a bad choice. But it's not like you were handing the ball to a scrub QB who hadn't just scored 2 TDs on long drives in less than two minutes on the last two drives.


To be fair, the average NFL play nets well over 2 yards (more than 5, actually), and the play they drew up is almost indefensible, it's just a question of execution by the players.

I can't believe that people are jumping on Belichick for this (a "stunning gamble", ESPN? seriously?), THIS of all things. It's 4th and TWO!! If you can't get two yards when you need it, you don't deserve to win anyway.


Considering NE and it's offense had already earned 450 yards by that point I wouldn't consider it a "STUNNING" gamble. I think there was like 3 minutes left too. Do you really want to give Peyton around 2-3 minutes?

If they punted it just would have taken Peyton a few more plays to do what they always do.

[peam]

I love the "You guys weren't in this thread talking shit the entire game so your opinions are invalid." argument.

What a chump.

[Zanagodly]

The media is blowing this so out of proportion. Was it the conventional football call to go for it in that situation? Of course not. That said, Belichick's greatness as a coach is that he will make out of box decisions. If they converted, his brilliance would be celebrated all over ESPN. The error he made was in using a timeout before the drive even started preventing him an opportunity to challenge the spot. That said, the spot probably would have been upheld but we'll never know with complete certainty. He obviously weighed the ability to pick up those 2 yards more heavily than the ability of his defense to prevent Manning from marching 60-70 yards down field for the touchdown. It is hard to argue with that logic.

[AnticorRifling]

I didn't think it was a bad call on Belichick's part at all. But it's the NFL anything can and will happen, that's what makes it awesome.

[Parkbandit]

The media is blowing this so out of proportion. Was it the conventional football call to go for it in that situation? Of course not. That said, Belichick's greatness as a coach is that he will make out of box decisions. If they converted, his brilliance would be celebrated all over ESPN. The error he made was in using a timeout before the drive even started preventing him an opportunity to challenge the spot. That said, the spot probably would have been upheld but we'll never know with complete certainty. He obviously weighed the ability to pick up those 2 yards more heavily than the ability of his defense to prevent Manning from marching 60-70 yards down field for the touchdown. It is hard to argue with that logic.

I completely agree. Had they converted, game is over. The only real risky part is you give Manning 30 yards to score a TD instead of 70.. but let's be honest, 70 for Manning is like 10 for a regular QB.

[TheEschaton]

I had no problem with the call. It was his comeuppance, for our botched kick off in Week 1 that allowed him to escape with a win, that the Colts actually stopped it.

[BigWorm]

I didn't think it was a bad call on Belichick's part at all. But it's the NFL anything can and will happen, that's what makes it awesome.

I agree. That play they ran is a high percentage play and really they would have had it if Faulk could have tucked. But it is definitely one of those calls that makes you the hero or the goat. Now not only is Belicheck's job on the line, but his house in in danger of burning.

[TheEschaton]

If his job is on the line because of this one play, it means his job was on the line before that one play.

[BigWorm]

If his job is on the line because of this one play, it means his job was on the line before that one play.

Only idiots (i.e. Madcap) think his job is on the line. Belilcheck will have to fuck up a lot more before NE will ever get rid of him.

[Keller]

Only idiots (i.e. Madcap) think his job is on the line. Belilcheck will have to fuck up a lot more before NE will ever get rid of him.

If NE fired him, there would be 31 organizations in pro football alone lining up to talk to his agent.

[Sean of the Thread]

30 organizations.

The Bucs have their eyes on a few others according to rumors and of course it's all speculative.

[Ardwen]

Clearly the Raiders would want nothing to do with Belichik, they wouldnt want someone that knew what the hell he was doing

[BigWorm]

Clearly the Raiders would want nothing to do with Belichik, they wouldnt want someone that knew what the hell he was doing

Nice. Has Belichick ever physically assaulted as assistant coach?

[Sean]

Nice. Has Belichick ever physically assaulted as assistant coach?

Or Ex Wife.

[Madcap]

This is 3 years in a row he has fucked up on 4th down situations in big games instead of punting the ball away... In the superbowl he went for it on 4th and 13th or whatever instead of trying a 48 yard fieldgoal... in 2008 against the Colts he had Matt Cassel go for it on 4th and 15 with plenty of time left, we ended up losing 18-15... and now this.. it's becoming a theme... I was being facetious when I said he should be fired... it's what WOULD happen if it was anyone BUT Bill Belicheck, but he has done enough that he EARNS leniency I suppose

[Androidpk]

Shitty coaching decision or not, it was a great football game. It was nice to see the Colts finally challenged.

[Xanator]

In defense of the fourth down call, when your offense has dialed up 450+ yards on the day, you have to expect them to manage 2 on command. It didn't work out. So the second part of your reasoning is you give the Colts the ball in a short field where you think you can either stop them (they have to go for the end zone in this situation), or you're giving your offensive more of a chance to answer. They managed the clock and didn't score too quick, giving the Pats the ball back with very little time left, which is what you're worried about if you punt the ball away and give them two minutes to drive 70-80 yards.

A pretty calculated risk that just didn't work out in the end. I think it's a situation where you punt the ball regardless, because I'd rather the Colts' last shots at the end zone be from around midfield instead of the 10. You have to have a little bit of confidence in a defense that wasn't awful (aside from giving up 21 points in the fourth, which shouldn't happen). And if you hadn't turned the ball over in the end zone twice, you wouldn't have to worry about it. It's a pretty awful collapse at the end of the day, AND you've got to deal with the fact that your young defense knows you've got zero confidence in them now.

But:


The Pats have had a little bit of trouble with pass-catching backs. I think Addai has a decent game here. But if Larry Maroney doesn't suck, the Pats should pull it out.

I say Patriots 34-31.

Addai winds up with 2 TDs. Maroney manages to punch one in early, but can't muster 3 YPC on the day. And he fumbles into the end zone on a play that could've sealed the deal. Colts 35-34, then?

[Parkbandit]

This is 3 years in a row he has fucked up on 4th down situations in big games instead of punting the ball away... In the superbowl he went for it on 4th and 13th or whatever instead of trying a 48 yard fieldgoal... in 2008 against the Colts he had Matt Cassel go for it on 4th and 15 with plenty of time left, we ended up losing 18-15... and now this.. it's becoming a theme... I was being facetious when I said he should be fired... it's what WOULD happen if it was anyone BUT Bill Belicheck, but he has done enough that he EARNS leniency I suppose

Bullshit.

If there was any coach that has done as much for the Patriots as Bill has, they would be treated the same way.

If it is someone who had a string of losing seasons, maybe.. but it wouldn't be BECAUSE of that 4th down decision... that would only be used as an excuse.

[AnticorRifling]

Still haven't heard an I'm sorry yet Madcap.

[Allereli]

This is 3 years in a row he has fucked up on 4th down situations in big games instead of punting the ball away... In the superbowl he went for it on 4th and 13th or whatever instead of trying a 48 yard fieldgoal... in 2008 against the Colts he had Matt Cassel go for it on 4th and 15 with plenty of time left, we ended up losing 18-15... and now this.. it's becoming a theme... I was being facetious when I said he should be fired... it's what WOULD happen if it was anyone BUT Bill Belicheck, but he has done enough that he EARNS leniency I suppose

It's the Joe Torre syndrome. Leaving Jeff Weaver in, overusing countless pitchers, not pulling the team off the field during the midges, etc. etc, he got a pass for a long time.

[Latrinsorm]

In the superbowl he went for it on 4th and 13th or whatever instead of trying a 48 yard fieldgoal..That was a legitimately terrible decision.
in 2008 against the Colts he had Matt Cassel go for it on 4th and 15 with plenty of time left, we ended up losing 18-15In that case, though, they were on the Colts' 45. Punting is only going to get you 25-30 yards, and if you remember the play resulted in a stupid interception that put the Colts on the 25 anyway.
and now this.. It's also worth pointing out that the Patriots have converted over a dozen 4th downs since 2007, so it's not like Belichick is 0-3 in this situation.

[TheEschaton]

Read this article about the decision, thought it was kinda interesting. I submit for your comments:

Belichick was right. (http://deadspin.com/5405774/belichick-was-right)

[Madcap]

Bullshit.

If there was any coach that has done as much for the Patriots as Bill has, they would be treated the same way.

If it is someone who had a string of losing seasons, maybe.. but it wouldn't be BECAUSE of that 4th down decision... that would only be used as an excuse.

Well that's why I said he has done enough that he gets leniancy and a pass...if this was a coach like eric mangini or something, he'd probably be on the hot seat.

[Madcap]

Still haven't heard an I'm sorry yet Madcap.


I ate my crow already, I said good win, and congrats to the colts for sticking in there.

[Madcap]

Still haven't heard an I'm sorry yet Madcap.


I ate my crow already, I said good win, and congrats to the colts for sticking in there.

Not sure what I am supposed to say 'I'm sorry' for ..lol..I gave the colts there due, I never said they were hrorible etc.. so..I dunno what you mean

And I said the only person I will submit to and say you were right was BigWorm, since everyone of you besides him disappeared when it looked like the Pats were going to blow indy out....

[Madcap]

What that game showed me though is the Patriots are an upper echelon team and a viable superbowl team ... GREAT win for the colts and a painful loss for the Patriots and their fans..but if anything can be taken away is that for at least 3 quarters the defense played great (until they went into PREVENT mode I think..).. if they can PREACH AND PRACTICE "60 minutes" this team has a good shot at going deep into the playoffs. It also showed me that Brady is fully recovered from his injury if there was any doubt and that the 8-0 Colts weren't some powerhouse..another test will be New Orleans, cuz if the Pats make it to the SB it's probably who they are going to play. It was a great game, and I'm sorry the Pats didn't come out on top but I had a great time in this thread talking shit back and forth and watching the game.

[Keller]

You forgot the most important part:

Peyton Manning (playing with inferior receivers against a superior defense) > Tom Brady (playing with superior receivers (OMG RANDY MOSS/WES WELKER ARE THE MEN!!!!!111) and an inferior defense (rookies CBs and no playmakers besides Freeney, right?).

[Methais]

You forgot the most important part:

Peyton Manning (playing with inferior receivers against a superior defense) > Tom Brady (playing with superior receivers (OMG RANDY MOSS/WES WELKER ARE THE MEN!!!!!111) and an inferior defense (rookies CBs and no playmakers besides Freeney, right?).

I don't recall Peyton Manning denying that he had consentual gay sex with you on October 26, 2002.

[BigWorm]

It's the Joe Torre syndrome. Leaving Jeff Weaver in, overusing countless pitchers, not pulling the team off the field during the midges, etc. etc, he got a pass for a long time.

Joe Torre has been considered the beneficiary of a run obscenely good talent for a while now. His sub-par managerial decisions show up even more in the NL where he has to juggle pitchers more often.

* I may be a bit biased.

[BigWorm]

I ate my crow already, I said good win, and congrats to the colts for sticking in there.

Not sure what I am supposed to say 'I'm sorry' for ..lol..I gave the colts there due, I never said they were hrorible etc.. so..I dunno what you mean

And I said the only person I will submit to and say you were right was BigWorm, since everyone of you besides him disappeared when it looked like the Pats were going to blow indy out....

I'm not gonna deny that I was nervous for a while there. The momentum really swung quickly in the Colts favor around the time the 4th quarter started.

[Latrinsorm]

Read this article about the decision, thought it was kinda interesting. I submit for your comments:

Belichick was right. (http://deadspin.com/5405774/belichick-was-right)There's lots of NFL decisions that are common knowledge to make that are statistically the wrong call, usually coaches are too gutless to make them. In this particular case I think the people who attribute the decision to arrogance are probably right though - Belichick has never struck me as a numbers coach.

[Madcap]

Thanks everyone for an awesome thread...the game was just a regular season game and really only a big game to the fans...since it's a rivalry.. The game showed me that these two teams will meet again ...

[Sean of the Thread]

I hope they don't meet again... for the Patriots sake.

[DoctorUnne]

Wow I just came upon this thread from the beginning, didn't expect so much on it. I don't think anyone needed to eat crow after that game. Both Brady and Manning and both teams proved themselves as legit. The 4th and 2 call was fine... certainly debatable but you can make a very strong argument in favor of it using the probabilities as the article that Eschaton linked to mentioned. That said, I think football is a lot more about emotion and momentum than say baseball is so football doesn't lend itself as well to that kind of mathematical analysis. The worst part of the decision was Belichick showing a complete lack of confidence in his defense and it's something I really hope they can recover from because they are talented but largely young and impressionable.

Burning the first timeout was inexcusable but the one before the 4th down decision was fine. It's one play to win the game I think you want to make sure you've got everyone on the same page. I think the worst decision was tackling Addai on the 1 with over a minute left when letting him score I think gives Brady a better than 50/50 chance of putting them into field goal range and winning it, but that's something you can't really expect a young player in the heat of the moment (Meriweather) to think about.

That would have been all I had to say except...


1 of 2 TDs for the most overrated QB in the NFL.

Sorry I can't let that slide without confirming that you are a massive Patriots hater / Colts fan / Jets fan or some combination of those. If so I guess I can excuse your irrationality. But if you objectively believe that then you have no credibility in evaluating QB talent. I am a HUGE Patriots fan and Manning/Colts hater and yet I will be the first to admit that since 2006 Manning has undoubtedly proven that he is one of the top 5 QBs of all-time. Before 2006 I didn't think he had the leadership credentials or big game capability but he has repeatedly shown that the Colts are nothing without him over the past four years and he can win the big game as well. But that's no different from Brady, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone intelligent who doesn't put Brady as a top-10 QB of all time. Most put him top 5 and I would wager at least half put him above Manning, although I admit it's debatable.

But he is NOT overrated unless everyone universally considers him the best QB ever, let alone the most overrated QB in the NFL today. Your argument about it being all Moss/Welker and Manning has nothing is such crap. For years Manning had two world class receivers, an amazing TE, a 1,500-yard RB and a defense with a sick pass rush. Brady is a blown 18-point lead and a ghetto helmet catch away from having 5 rings. I'll give you 2001 was lucky, but that's 4 rings. And in only one of those seasons did they have Moss and Welker, and in only one of those seasons did they have a truly dominant defense. The rest of the time Brady won with crappy receivers, a middling D, and/or a crappy running game. A lot of the Pats' success is due to Belichick, but the Colts had Dungy too.

Plus, every ball Manning throws over 20 yards looks like a wounded duck, but he somehow gets it done so I won't fault him for that.

[Keller]

Sorry I can't let that slide without confirming that you are a massive Patriots hater / Colts fan / Jets fan or some combination of those. If so I guess I can excuse your irrationality. But if you objectively believe that then you have no credibility in evaluating QB talent. I am a HUGE Patriots fan and Manning/Colts hater and yet I will be the first to admit that since 2006 Manning has undoubtedly proven that he is one of the top 5 QBs of all-time. Before 2006 I didn't think he had the leadership credentials or big game capability but he has repeatedly shown that the Colts are nothing without him over the past four years and he can win the big game as well. But that's no different from Brady, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone intelligent who doesn't put Brady as a top-10 QB of all time. Most put him top 5 and I would wager at least half put him above Manning, although I admit it's debatable.

But he is NOT overrated unless everyone universally considers him the best QB ever, let alone the most overrated QB in the NFL today. Your argument about it being all Moss/Welker and Manning has nothing is such crap. For years Manning had two world class receivers, an amazing TE, a 1,500-yard RB and a defense with a sick pass rush. Brady is a blown 18-point lead and a ghetto helmet catch away from having 5 rings. I'll give you 2001 was lucky, but that's 4 rings. And in only one of those seasons did they have Moss and Welker, and in only one of those seasons did they have a truly dominant defense. The rest of the time Brady won with crappy receivers, a middling D, and/or a crappy running game. A lot of the Pats' success is due to Belichick, but the Colts had Dungy too.

Plus, every ball Manning throws over 20 yards looks like a wounded duck, but he somehow gets it done so I won't fault him for that.

See:
,
You are taking an indianapolis team that is giving up huge amounts of yardage via run and pass? with a depleted secondary, bob sanders out for the year, anothony gonzalez is out... only dallas clark and reggie wayne to throw the ball to.. against a completely healthy (aside from back up running backs) New England team?

bet silvers? :)

and following.

[BigWorm]

Sorry I can't let that slide without confirming that you are a massive Patriots hater / Colts fan / Jets fan or some combination of those. If so I guess I can excuse your irrationality. But if you objectively believe that then you have no credibility in evaluating QB talent. I am a HUGE Patriots fan and Manning/Colts hater and yet I will be the first to admit that since 2006 Manning has undoubtedly proven that he is one of the top 5 QBs of all-time. Before 2006 I didn't think he had the leadership credentials or big game capability but he has repeatedly shown that the Colts are nothing without him over the past four years and he can win the big game as well. But that's no different from Brady, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone intelligent who doesn't put Brady as a top-10 QB of all time. Most put him top 5 and I would wager at least half put him above Manning, although I admit it's debatable.

I am obviously huge Colts fan and Brady/Pats hater, but I definitely have to disagree with your assessment of where Brady ranks all time. The main point for Brady is his Super Bowl Championships. I think in time we will be looked at like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. Great company to be in without a doubt, but not on the same level as guys like Marino, Elway, Farve, Montana, or Unitas.

[Madcap]

I am obviously huge Colts fan and Brady/Pats hater, but I definitely have to disagree with your assessment of where Brady ranks all time. The main point for Brady is his Super Bowl Championships. I think in time we will be looked at like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. Great company to be in without a doubt, but not on the same level as guys like Marino, Elway, Farve, Montana, or Unitas.

Terry Bradshaw was awful.. he had 220 touchdowns and like 219 interceptions .. Brady has 210 TDs and like 90 interceptions.. a 60+ percent completion percentage and a 90's QB rating.. his yardarge would be up there with Manning if he had receivers like manning had..

Manning's first season was what, the 98 season...Bradys was like 5 games into the 2001 season.. thats 3 years .. plus Brady's missed year... at 3,000 yards a year <and thats low> that would put him at the 40,000 yard mark or over... which would be right around where Manning is I guess. With comparable TD/Int #'s completion percentages, wins etc..

[TheEschaton]

I am obviously huge Colts fan and Brady/Pats hater, but I definitely have to disagree with your assessment of where Brady ranks all time. The main point for Brady is his Super Bowl Championships. I think in time we will be looked at like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. Great company to be in without a doubt, but not on the same level as guys like Marino, Elway, Farve, Montana, or Unitas.

Ahem, Jim Kelly? Best QB of the class of 83, yanno.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff143/EditorGuante/MachineGunKelly.jpg

Yes I had that poster when I was growing up.

[Tsa`ah]

Terry Bradshaw was awful.. he had 220 touchdowns and like 219 interceptions .. Brady has 210 TDs and like 90 interceptions.. a 60+ percent completion percentage and a 90's QB rating.. his yardarge would be up there with Manning if he had receivers like manning had..

Manning's first season was what, the 98 season...Bradys was like 5 games into the 2001 season.. thats 3 years .. plus Brady's missed year... at 3,000 yards a year <and thats low> that would put him at the 40,000 yard mark or over... which would be right around where Manning is I guess. With comparable TD/Int #'s completion percentages, wins etc..

You really make no sense with your arguments. First you say that Wayne and Clark won't be a factor against NE, and then you just go on and on about all of the receivers Manning has to make him look good. From 99 to 06 he had Harrison, 07 to 09 he's got Clark, and from 04 to 09 ... Wayne. Yes yes, those mentioned have been playing or played for the Colts longer, I'm just pointing out the most productive and note worthy years. Brady has Moss and Welker with Faulk and has had as many viable receivers in the past as Manning has had. Harrison has been the only real big time receiver for Manning ... but ask any QB in the league which they would prefer, a Harrison and a few guys who'll get 500-800 yards or more or more than a few guys who'll get 500-800 yards with the one of them having the potential for a break away season ... I'm sure most would like the second option. Any advantage Manning had over Brady in the receiving dept was because Manning is the type of QB that develops great receivers ... you don't have to scout for a Moss for Manning ... he'll just make a Harrison and save you the trouble.

The second part of your argument is just asinine. Brady got off the bench in game 3 of the 2001 season. If Brady was as great as you think he is ... he should have had no problem taking over Bledsoe in training camp and the pre-season. He wasn't ... and I'm sorry ... and isn't. Yes he's good, one of the best in the league ... but he's not QB enough to dry Manning's balls.

Let's get your three years out of the way first. You don't get to say "but he didn't play" ... he was in the league and he rode pine for his first 18 regular season games. Tough shit. Also tough shit that he got injured in the 2007 home opener. To suggest that Brady would have kept pace with Manning had he played in that time is nothing but conjecture. Manning hasn't missed a game in 12 years ... not because his O line is so awesome and not because he's tough, but because (as Bilichek stated on Sunday's pre-game) you can't blitz him. Manning is constantly aware and always calm. That's why he's never had a season ending injury and that's just one more fact that results in Brady being nothing more than another over rated douche in Manning's rear view.

So, the first 9 years of each QB's career results in the following differences in stats ... Manning has 830 more completions, 11,167 more yards, 78 more TDs, and a rating 8.7 higher than Brady. Conjecture can't be used in an argument about the lost 2 years ... Brady will have to either surpass Manning's numbers in the same number of years in the league, or retire 2 years after Manning while beating his numbers.

Next you have to compare where either QB finished the seasons amongst other QBs. Of the 12 years Manning has been in the league he has finished in the top five for passing 8 times (3 1st place), rating 8 times (3 1st place), and yards 7 times (2 1st place) ... and in the top 10 every year but his rookie season (except for yards ... that was third). Brady isn't even close to doing this ... it will be impossible for him to do this.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think anyone can actually say that Brady isn't one of the elite QBs in the league now.. and one of the top QBs of all time. If they do, they simply don't know football.

[Sean of the Thread]

I didn't say he wasn't an elite QB. I just don't like him and I firmly believe Peyton is the best all around QB right now.

This includes my man love for Brett who is one of my favorite player's of all time.

[Parkbandit]

I didn't say he wasn't an elite QB. I just don't like him and I firmly believe Peyton is the best all around QB right now.

This includes my man love for Brett who is one of my favorite player's of all time.

I'm 100% behind you in both cases. My FF team name is "40 year old Viking"

[AnticorRifling]

I didn't say he wasn't an elite QB. I just don't like him and I firmly believe Peyton is the best all around QB right now.

This includes my man love for Brett who is one of my favorite player's who's been playing since the dawn of time.
Fixed that for you.

[NocturnalRob]

You really make no sense with your arguments.
/thread


Fixed that for you.
while you're at it, fix the possessive fail

http://www.unbelgeaparis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/grammar_nazi2.jpg

[Keller]

I don't think anyone can actually say that Brady isn't one of the elite QBs in the league now.. and one of the top QBs of all time. If they do, they simply don't know football.

Being a Notre Dame fan and after living through the early 2000s as a Colts fan, I have a preternatural hatred for Asschin Terribrady.

I won't ever say he is an elite QB, because the thought alone makes my saliva taste of bile.

[AnticorRifling]

Being a Notre Dame fan and after living through the early 2000s as a Colts fan, I have a preternatural hatred for Asschin Terribrady.

I won't ever say he is an elite QB, because the thought alone makes my saliva taste of bile.


Keller speaks for all Hoosiers on this one.

[DoctorUnne]

I am obviously huge Colts fan and Brady/Pats hater, but I definitely have to disagree with your assessment of where Brady ranks all time. The main point for Brady is his Super Bowl Championships. I think in time we will be looked at like Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. Great company to be in without a doubt, but not on the same level as guys like Marino, Elway, Farve, Montana, or Unitas.

How else do you evaluate him? Stats? I think by the time his career is done you'll see his career stats compare very favorably to Marino, Elway or Favre, and especially Montana and Unitas. And he put up pretty decent stats even before the arrival of Moss.

You have to separate counting stats from stats like completion PCT, yards per attempt and QB rating. Brett Favre is the all-time leader in all the counting stats because he's played forever and been injury-free. That's valuable in and of itself but I think those stats should be taken at a discount relative to the PCT type stats, assuming a certain minimum number of attempts. Favre also is the all-time leader in INTs.

I agree with you about Bradshaw and Aikman, but they don't have the numbers Brady does. And at some point you need to recognize that certain QBs have what it takes to win, especially in big games, and certain QBs don't. Eli Manning and Roethlisberger even, as much as I hate them, have it. Romo does not (or at least hasn't showed it yet), and puts up better stats than either of them.

[DoctorUnne]

The second part of your argument is just asinine. Brady got off the bench in game 3 of the 2001 season. If Brady was as great as you think he is ... he should have had no problem taking over Bledsoe in training camp and the pre-season. He wasn't ... and I'm sorry ... and isn't. Yes he's good, one of the best in the league ... but he's not QB enough to dry Manning's balls.

Let's get your three years out of the way first. You don't get to say "but he didn't play" ... he was in the league and he rode pine for his first 18 regular season games. Tough shit. Also tough shit that he got injured in the 2007 home opener. To suggest that Brady would have kept pace with Manning had he played in that time is nothing but conjecture. Manning hasn't missed a game in 12 years ... not because his O line is so awesome and not because he's tough, but because (as Bilichek stated on Sunday's pre-game) you can't blitz him. Manning is constantly aware and always calm. That's why he's never had a season ending injury and that's just one more fact that results in Brady being nothing more than another over rated douche in Manning's rear view.

I agree with you that Manning's stats are better than Brady's will be, even in the same number of games, and in that regard I think Manning is slightly better. But I still think Brady is slightly better when it counts. In the playoffs, big games etc. Manning's not the pushover I originally thought he was, but he has lost a LOT of playoff games. Brady has lost 3.

I don't agree with your argument about Brady not being as good because he rode the pine at the beginning of his career however. The Pats had a legitimate QB already and had no need to start Brady, while the Colts had no choice but to play Manning from day 1. Even if Brady had started day 1 he may not have been as good as Manning right away, but you can improve as a player, and clearly he's done that.

And as for the season-ending injury, Brady has not missed a start other than that. The reality of the NFL is that anyone can suffer a fluke season-ending injury. Some players are more injury-prone than others, and some may be better at avoiding injuries, but that injury could have as easily happened to Manning as it could have to Brady.

[Sean of the Thread]

You do realize that Manning practically calls the plays almost every down right?

Brady = dumb dumb. Manning = Pentium Peyton.

Also Manning wins because of the ATOMIC SITUP incident.

[DoctorUnne]

Being a Notre Dame fan and after living through the early 2000s as a Colts fan, I have a preternatural hatred for Asschin Terribrady.

I won't ever say he is an elite QB, because the thought alone makes my saliva taste of bile.

Ok and now I understand where you're coming from better. But isn't that complete and total hatred of an enemy a testament to how good he is? You would never completely and totally hate Jamarcus Russell, unless you were a Raiders fan.

I don't hate the Jets even though they're our main division rival because they've been a joke for most of the time I've been a football fan.

[DoctorUnne]

You do realize that Manning practically calls the plays almost every down right?

Brady = dumb dumb. Manning = Pentium Peyton.

Also Manning wins because of the ATOMIC SITUP incident.

I disagree. Watch Belichick when the camera goes to him while the offense is on the field. He spends the entire time coaching the defense. His roots are as a defensive guru. He's smart, but Brady's way more responsible for the offense than Belichick is. Brady may not have the complete autonomy in playcalling that Manning does but he's not dumb.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'll take your word for it. I try my hardest to never watch a NE game in fear of catching the gay bug from Bledsoe in the past and now Brady.

[TheEschaton]

Being a Notre Dame fan and after living through the early 2000s as a Colts fan, I have a preternatural hatred for Asschin Terribrady.

I won't ever say he is an elite QB, because the thought alone makes my saliva taste of bile.

My hatred stems from being a Bills fan going to college in Boston during the Magical, Mystical Ascension of both the Red Sox and Tom "The Savior" Brady, and being surrounded by people hanging off his nut sack for 7 years, 4 for college, 3 for grad school.

[Keller]

My hatred stems from being a Bills fan going to college in Boston during the Magical, Mystical Ascension of both the Red Sox and Tom "The Savior" Brady, and being surrounded by people hanging off his nut sack for 7 years, 4 for college, 3 for grad school.

The only thing worse than a Patiots fan is a Red Sox fan.

Fuck 'em all.

[Sean of the Thread]

Shit I agree with Keller again.

I'd like to add a Yankee fan to that last as well however.

[DoctorUnne]

Haha ok if we're going to be like this...

Brady is married to Giselle. Peyton Manning looks like his team's mascot.

[AnticorRifling]

You leave Corky Manning alone he love football chomp chomp chewy chomp.

[BigWorm]

I disagree. Watch Belichick when the camera goes to him while the offense is on the field. He spends the entire time coaching the defense. His roots are as a defensive guru. He's smart, but Brady's way more responsible for the offense than Belichick is. Brady may not have the complete autonomy in playcalling that Manning does but he's not dumb.

This is dead wrong. Belichick might not be the one directly calling plays on offense but I promise you that at least one coordinator knows the play 99% of the time. Just because Belichick delegates some responsibilities to coordinators and assistants doesn't mean he has no influence over the offense.

[Xanator]

This is dead wrong. Belichick might not be the one directly calling plays on offense but I promise you that at least one coordinator knows the play 99% of the time. Just because Belichick delegates some responsibilities to coordinators and assistants doesn't mean he has no influence over the offense.

The Patriots don't have an offensive coordinator. Belichick took over play-calling duties after the departure Josh McDaniels. I think that if you watch Tom Brady go to the line, and you watch Peyton Manning go to the line, you'll see two guys who do almost the same thing in terms of reading the defense and adjusting the play once they get there. The Colts run a no-huddle, but Peyton's got someone in his ear just like Brady does. They have a gameplan, and a lot of your offense is scripted to begin with. Still, they're far and away the two smartest quarterbacks in the league. When you consider how much more complex the game has become, they might be the two smartest quarterbacks of all time.

I'm a huge Pats fan, and I would consider Manning and Brady equal if it weren't for Brady's rings. And I know Brady didn't go whip the ball all over the field in those Super Bowls, but it takes some intangibles to win in the NFL, as has been discussed here. Manning has had at the very least a comparable defense, better running backs, and a better receiving corps at times than Brady ever had during a winning campaign. He's still two rings behind.

And when you're talking about comparing them statistically, fantasy football (which I play and enjoy) has really jacked up the importance of stats in the eyes of the fan, and has contributed to the networks shoving them down the fan's throat. The numbers don't lie, don't get me wrong, but there's no leadership stat or clutch stat or anything like that. Stats are important to an argument like this, but don't forget to look at results.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.sptimes.com/News/012101/photos/sp-trent.jpg




I kid I kid.



I am happy with Josh Freeman as of now. That kid has got some serious potential.

[BigWorm]

The Patriots don't have an offensive coordinator. Belichick took over play-calling duties after the departure Josh McDaniels. I think that if you watch Tom Brady go to the line, and you watch Peyton Manning go to the line, you'll see two guys who do almost the same thing in terms of reading the defense and adjusting the play once they get there. The Colts run a no-huddle, but Peyton's got someone in his ear just like Brady does. They have a gameplan, and a lot of your offense is scripted to begin with. Still, they're far and away the two smartest quarterbacks in the league. When you consider how much more complex the game has become, they might be the two smartest quarterbacks of all time.

I'm a huge Pats fan, and I would consider Manning and Brady equal if it weren't for Brady's rings. And I know Brady didn't go whip the ball all over the field in those Super Bowls, but it takes some intangibles to win in the NFL, as has been discussed here. Manning has had at the very least a comparable defense, better running backs, and a better receiving corps at times than Brady ever had during a winning campaign. He's still two rings behind.

And when you're talking about comparing them statistically, fantasy football (which I play and enjoy) has really jacked up the importance of stats in the eyes of the fan, and has contributed to the networks shoving them down the fan's throat. The numbers don't lie, don't get me wrong, but there's no leadership stat or clutch stat or anything like that. Stats are important to an argument like this, but don't forget to look at results.

McDaniels called plays in 2005 without having the title "offensive coordinator" so I don't think you can use that as evidence Brady is drawing up plays in the dirt. I also don't want to diminish Tom Moore's contribution to the Colts because I'm sure if you ask Manning he will acknowledge how much Moore has had to do with their success. But if you think Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are doing the same thing as they go to the line, then you have no appreciation for what Peyton does.

Also, do you Patriots fans really have that little respect for Patriots players not named Tom Brady? Even if I accept your statement that Manning had more tools, a big part of the Patriots championships was the defense with players like Rodney Harrison and Ted Bruschi. You remember those guys, right? You may have seen them deriding Belichick's decision Sunday night as "one of the worst calls ever". Harrison especially looked like he might cry.

[Sean of the Thread]

Manning calls audibles almost every single play and nail bitingly close to 1 second left on the play clock.

I'm just sorry. Brady is a good qb but Manning is amazing.

[Sean of the Thread]

Damn it all. I'm too lazy to search too hard on my day off but I cannot for the life of me find the info on Manning's atomic sit up debacle at UT. :(

Funny shit. Well not really it was wrong but still funny in a wrong way.

[Keller]

You honestly believe that the Colts and Patriots have had comparable defenses at anytime in the last decade?

Really?

[BigWorm]

You honestly believe that the Colts and Patriots have had comparable defenses at anytime in the last decade?

Really?

Right now? ;)

[Latrinsorm]

But that's no different from Brady, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone intelligent who doesn't put Brady as a top-10 QB of all time.
How else do you evaluate him? Stats?I would argue that anyone who tries to rate all the QBs "of all time" is not being intelligent - football in 1950 isn't even close to the same sport as football in 2010, how can you rationally compare Tom Brady and Johnny Unitas?
For years Manning had two world class receivers, an amazing TE, a 1,500-yard RB and a defense with a sick pass rush. ... The rest of the time Brady won with crappy receivers, a middling D, and/or a crappy running game.Let's examine the defense claim first, points per game allowed by year from 2008 to whenever the QB started with that team:

Colts: 7, 1, 23, 2, 19, 20, 7, 31(!), 15, 17, 29 for an average of 15.5 (slightly worse than average)
Patriots: 8, 4, 2, 17, 2, 1, 17, 6 for an average of 7.1 (a little bit better than middling, eh?)

Let's examine the running game: Corey Dillon had over 1600 yards running in 2004, and while Edgerrin James racked up lots of yards, his ypc has always been barely above average, if at all. Another reason the Patriots rarely had an outstanding running back is the choices they made with regards to offensive style - the Patriots leading rushing attempts average in Tom Brady's tenure is only 227. Of course you're not going to have a running back top 1500 yards - he'd have to average 6.6 ypc! (For reference, every year James had over 1500 yards he had over 330 carries.)

Further, I think we can agree that neither team has ever had a truly dominant running back in the mold of Jim Brown or Adrian Peterson. What makes running easier? A passing game that strikes terror into the hearts of the defense - and it is for that reason and that reason alone that a middling running back like Edgerrin James had success.

[Xanator]

McDaniels called plays in 2005 without having the title "offensive coordinator" so I don't think you can use that as evidence Brady is drawing up plays in the dirt. I also don't want to diminish Tom Moore's contribution to the Colts because I'm sure if you ask Manning he will acknowledge how much Moore has had to do with their success. But if you think Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are doing the same thing as they go to the line, then you have no appreciation for what Peyton does.

I said Belichick assumed play-calling duties, right? Bill Belichick is calling the plays.


Also, do you Patriots fans really have that little respect for Patriots players not named Tom Brady? Even if I accept your statement that Manning had more tools, a big part of the Patriots championships was the defense with players like Rodney Harrison and Ted Bruschi. You remember those guys, right? You may have seen them deriding Belichick's decision Sunday night as "one of the worst calls ever". Harrison especially looked like he might cry.

Lawyer Milloy also had a big part of the championship that Rodney Harrison wasn't actually a part of, for the record. I do know some other players' names, too.


You honestly believe that the Colts and Patriots have had comparable defenses at anytime in the last decade?

Really?

We'll ask Latrin.


Let's examine the defense claim first, points per game allowed by year from 2008 to whenever the QB started with that team:

Colts: 7, 1, 23, 2, 19, 20, 7, 31(!), 15, 17, 29 for an average of 15.5 (slightly worse than average)
Patriots: 8, 4, 2, 17, 2, 1, 17, 6 for an average of 7.1 (a little bit better than middling, eh?)

So in each QB's tenure, the Patriots have had five defenses in the top 7, and the Colts have had four. And the Colts have been better defensively than the Patriots in exactly half of Tom Brady's eight seasons. So I'd say they're actually pretty comparable.


Let's examine the running game: Corey Dillon had over 1600 yards running in 2004, and while Edgerrin James racked up lots of yards, his ypc has always been barely above average, if at all. Another reason the Patriots rarely had an outstanding running back is the choices they made with regards to offensive style - the Patriots leading rushing attempts average in Tom Brady's tenure is only 227. Of course you're not going to have a running back top 1500 yards - he'd have to average 6.6 ypc! (For reference, every year James had over 1500 yards he had over 330 carries.)

You probably shouldn't infer from this that the Patriots don't WANT to have a dominant run game. They've drafted their fair share of RBs (Laurence Maroney in the first round, let's not forget), and they've brought in guys like Corey Dillon. But Dillon's 2004 season was a one-off, and Edge had four or five really good seasons in Indy. 2004 being an exception, there has been a Curtis Martin-shaped void in Foxborough for over a decade.


Further, I think we can agree that neither team has ever had a truly dominant running back in the mold of Jim Brown or Adrian Peterson. What makes running easier? A passing game that strikes terror into the hearts of the defense - and it is for that reason and that reason alone that a middling running back like Edgerrin James had success.

I have never heard Edgerrin James described as a "middling running back." Maybe if you're saying he's NOW a "middling running back," but I don't see how you can say he didn't have some really productive seasons in Indy.

The Colts technically sort of had Eric Dickerson and Marshall Faulk. Heh.

[DoctorUnne]

Colts: 7, 1, 23, 2, 19, 20, 7, 31(!), 15, 17, 29 for an average of 15.5 (slightly worse than average)
Patriots: 8, 4, 2, 17, 2, 1, 17, 6 for an average of 7.1 (a little bit better than middling, eh?)

The Colts play in a dome and the Pats play in one of the nastiest inclement weather stadiums in the NFL. Not to mention the Colts play their road divisional games against teams in the south while the Pats play two more games in Buffalo and NY. That inflates the stats of both the Colts offense and the Pats defense.

We can go back and forth all day and torture the data until they confess to anything. I keep thinking about that game in the 2004 playoffs where Manning put up 3 points in Foxboro after throwing for 49 TDs in the regular season. Brady would never lay that kind of egg in a playoff game.

[RichardCranium]

We can go back and forth all day and torture the data until they confess to anything. I keep thinking about that game in the 2004 playoffs where Manning put up 3 points in Foxboro after throwing for 49 TDs in the regular season. Brady would never lay that kind of egg in a playoff game.


Especially with all of the opponents walk-throughs on tape, amirite?

[Latrinsorm]

So in each QB's tenure, the Patriots have had five defenses in the top 7, and the Colts have had four. And the Colts have been better defensively than the Patriots in exactly half of Tom Brady's eight seasons. So I'd say they're actually pretty comparable.How is a top ten defense comparable to a below average defense?
You probably shouldn't infer from this that the Patriots don't WANT to have a dominant run game.I take no position as to what the Patriots want or don't want. I'm just pointing out that "a running back that had 1500 yards" is not a useful metric in this case because of the Patriots' style of playcalling.
But Dillon's 2004 season was a one-off, and Edge had four or five really good seasons in Indy ... I have never heard Edgerrin James described as a "middling running back." Maybe if you're saying he's NOW a "middling running back," but I don't see how you can say he didn't have some really productive seasons in Indy.I'm not saying he wasn't productive, I'm saying any average running back would have had similar (or better) total production in the same scenario. The guy went to Arizona and hasn't averaged 4.0 ypc since. 28 is pretty old for a running back, but it's not that old anymore, especially for a guy who is supposedly top flight.
The Colts play in a dome and the Pats play in one of the nastiest inclement weather stadiums in the NFL. Not to mention the Colts play their road divisional games against teams in the south while the Pats play two more games in Buffalo and NY. That inflates the stats of both the Colts offense and the Pats defense.I'm going to research this and get back to you, but the first things that come to mind are a) it's not always winter in New England and b) the AFC South has been a significantly better division than the AFC East for pretty much the entirety of the time period in question, sending three teams to the playoffs at least once.
I keep thinking about that game in the 2004 playoffs where Manning put up 3 points in Foxboro after throwing for 49 TDs in the regular season. Brady would never lay that kind of egg in a playoff game.Speaking of the postseason, I thought it would be worthwhile to examine various players' postseason performances:

Marvin "World Class" Harrison's postseason numbers:

16 games, 65 receptions, 883 yards, 2(!!) touchdowns. If Marvin Harrison's postseason was a receiver last year, it would have been Owen Daniels (a Texans tight end).

Randy Moss, normalized from 11 to 16 games:

61 receptions, 1188 yards, 14.5 TDs, or Calvin Johnson's 2008 campaign.

And on that particular January the 16th:

Edgerrin James: 14 carries, 39 yards, long of 7.

Corey Dillon: 23 carries, 144(!) yards, long of 42 (and a fun fact about this number, in his career Edgerrin James has exactly 3 rushes for more than 42 yards. 3!! I mean, come on already.)

It cannot be argued that Manning's worst playoff performance is better than Brady's worst playoff performance, but what I am trying to illustrate is that in Brady's worst performances (the two 3-pick games against San Diego come to mind) the Patriots won, while in Peyton's worst performances the Colts lost miserably (41-0, 20-3). Surely there must be something the Patriots have that the Colts do not beyond the man under center, no?

[Xanator]

How is a top ten defense comparable to a below average defense?

My claim was that "Manning has had at the very least a comparable defense, better running backs, and a better receiving corps at times than Brady ever had during a winning campaign." I wouldn't really consider the average points-allowed ranking of all the defenses on Colts teams for which Peyton Manning started to be a relevant way to express that data. They've had a #1 and they've had a #31. The level of competition in the NFL doesn't remain static enough for you to take the past eleven years of stats and say the Colts are a #15.5 defense.[/quote]


I'm going to research this and get back to you, but the first things that come to mind are a) it's not always winter in New England and b) the AFC South has been a significantly better division than the AFC East for pretty much the entirety of the time period in question, sending three teams to the playoffs at least once.

NFL season, including playoffs, runs from September to February. You saw a nasty snowy day at Foxborough for Pats vs. Texans before Halloween this year. It's winter in New England for most of the football year. But to be fair in any case, you only play half your games at home.

[DoctorUnne]

Surely there must be something the Patriots have that the Colts do not beyond the man under center, no?

Yeah, historically a better coach and a much better defense, but not a better running game or close to as good receivers.

More recently, better receivers, but really not by much. Wayne and Clark are elite. And now a much better coach. But still not a better running game and now not nearly as a good a pass rush, which has time and again proven to be the most important part of a defense (see Giants).

The most damning argument against Brady which all you Brady-haters have failed to make is the good season Cassel put up last year with all the same pieces, especially when you look at how he's doing this year. And yes, I'll agree with you that the Colts without Manning are worse than the Patriots without Brady and always have been.

But there's still a huge difference between Brady and Cassel. With Cassel, that offense was decent. With Brady, it is record-breaking. And I'd still rather have Brady than Manning if I was down 6 with 2 minutes left and the ball on my own 20 in the Super Bowl.

[DoctorUnne]

b) the AFC South has been a significantly better division than the AFC East for pretty much the entirety of the time period in question

Umm... no.

In aggregate since 2002 the rest of the AFC East is 162-201. The rest of the AFC South is 172-191. If you throw out 2007 when the rest of the AFC East was 12-36 while the rest of the AFC South was 29-19, the AFC East was 7 games better than the AFC South. They've been better in 4 of those 8 years and equal in 2 of the 8 years. This year they're 2 games worse and in 2007 they were significantly worse.

Like I said before you can find stats to support whatever conclusion you want. If you want a pure QB stat that is largely uncorrelated with the skill of the rest of the offense, look at the INT rate. Brady's thrown 92 picks in 4,005 attempts (2.3%), while Manning's thrown 172 picks in 6,317 attempts (2.7%). Manning's career rating is 95.3 and Brady's is 93.6. I'll take the rings and call it a day.

[BigWorm]

And I'd still rather have Brady than Manning if I was down 6 with 2 minutes left and the ball on my own 20 in the Super Bowl.

Apparently Belichick thought that Manning was a pretty formidable opponent in pretty much that exact scenario minus the SB on Sunday.

Also, you do realize that neither Brady nor Manning have lead their team to a game winning TD drive in the final minutes of a Super Bowl, right? Both of Brady's big drives led to field goals, not TDs. So really the guy who should get all the credit for the Patriots Super Bowl victories is a kicker who happens to be wearing a Colts jersey nowadays*.

* When he is not injured. Idiot kickers.

[BigWorm]

Umm... no.

In aggregate since 2002 the rest of the AFC East is 162-201. The rest of the AFC South is 172-191. If you throw out 2007 when the rest of the AFC East was 12-36 while the rest of the AFC South was 29-19, the AFC East was 7 games better than the AFC South. They've been better in 4 of those 8 years and equal in 2 of the 8 years. This year they're 2 games worse and in 2007 they were significantly worse.

Like I said before you can find stats to support whatever conclusion you want. If you want a pure QB stat that is largely uncorrelated with the skill of the rest of the offense, look at the INT rate. Brady's thrown 92 picks in 4,005 attempts (2.3%), while Manning's thrown 172 picks in 6,317 attempts (2.7%). Manning's career rating is 95.3 and Brady's is 93.6. I'll take the rings and call it a day.

THROW OUT 2007?!? You're trying to make an argument for Tom Brady as best QB ever and you want to throw out 2007? You're a total clown.

[TheEschaton]

The AFC East is home to the only team in the NFL that hasn't made it to the playoffs this century.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

The most damning argument against Brady which all you Brady-haters have failed to make is the good season Cassel put up last year with all the same pieces, especially when you look at how he's doing this year.You said so yourself, that's a crappy argument. Brady has very good seasons because Brady is a very good quarterback. Cassel is a fair to middling quarterback, and so put up a fair season last year.
With Brady, it is record-breaking.That's a totally different topic that I feel comfortable broaching here - do you feel the Patriots deliberately and repeatedly ran up the score to an unprecedented degree in 2007?
Umm... no.

In aggregate since 2002 the rest of the AFC East is 162-201. The rest of the AFC South is 172-191. If you throw out 2007 when the rest of the AFC East was 12-36 while the rest of the AFC South was 29-19, the AFC East was 7 games better than the AFC South. They've been better in 4 of those 8 years and equal in 2 of the 8 years. This year they're 2 games worse and in 2007 they were significantly worse.I meant more that the AFC South has year in and year out produced high-quality (i.e. playoff) teams, although it appears I over-estimated that: since 2002, it's only 5 to 3 in favor of the AFC South for non-Colts/non-Pats teams. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose!
If you want a pure QB stat that is largely uncorrelated with the skill of the rest of the offense, look at the INT rate.You don't really think Marvin Harrison does a better job protecting his QB on bad throws than Randy Moss and Troy Brown, the guy they sometimes put in on defense and the guy who actually played defense?
Like I said before you can find stats to support whatever conclusion you want.But to the thinkers, not all stats are worthwhile.

[DoctorUnne]

Apparently Belichick thought that Manning was a pretty formidable opponent in pretty much that exact scenario minus the SB on Sunday.

Also, you do realize that neither Brady nor Manning have lead their team to a game winning TD drive in the final minutes of a Super Bowl, right? Both of Brady's big drives led to field goals, not TDs. So really the guy who should get all the credit for the Patriots Super Bowl victories is a kicker who happens to be wearing a Colts jersey nowadays*.

* When he is not injured. Idiot kickers.

If the Colts had a coach with balls they would have strongly considered the exact same thing in the same scenario.

[DoctorUnne]

THROW OUT 2007?!? You're trying to make an argument for Tom Brady as best QB ever and you want to throw out 2007? You're a total clown.

Dude calm down. I was responding to Latrin's contention that the AFC South was significantly better than the AFC east over the entire 2000s decade. The quality of those divisions in one year of their respective careers has little to do with their overall merits as QBs so I'm not sure where you draw your conclusion that I'm a clown from. I'm not basing my argument on Brady being a better QB solely on his stats in 2007 - I recognize that the AFC East sucked that year. But the Patriots also played the NFC East in 2007, which I think we can all agree does not suck.

[DoctorUnne]

That's a totally different topic that I feel comfortable broaching here - do you feel the Patriots deliberately and repeatedly ran up the score to an unprecedented degree in 2007?

Yes in a few games, and I don't condone it. But it only happened three times, against Miami, Washington and Buffalo. The offense was amazing because it put up 30-40 points in almost EVERY game.


But to the thinkers, not all stats are worthwhile.

Agreed, but in the Brady vs. Manning debate you can find worthwhile stats to argue each side.

Guys - sorry, but I've been spending too much time responding to this thread so this will be it. I feel I've taken a pretty reasonable approach and given Manning credit where it is due, and I think they are 1A and 1B, but I still think Brady is better for a number of reasons I've argued and supported with evidence. I think there are plenty of intelligent fans who think Manning is better and they make good arguments too.

My initial perhaps overstrong reaction was to two claims I saw thrown around with wild abandon earlier in the thread:

1) Manning is completely an unequivocably a better QB than Brady
2) (and the one I took greater offense to) Brady is not one of the all-time great QBs and is significantly overrated

I probably spent too much time arguing point 1 when point 2 was the more foolish claim, but hey if you still believe both then maybe we'll revisit the issue once Brady sends Manning home crying again in the 2009 playoffs.

Team of the decade,
Patriots

[Sean of the Thread]

Because you're a homer.

[Xanator]

The AFC East is home to the only team in the NFL that hasn't made it to the playoffs this century.

-TheE-

Poor Houston Texans. They can't even get a little love when people are talking about bad teams.