For my kid, only quality semi-automatics will do!

[ElvenFury]

Family sues over boy's gun show death

By The Associated Press
November 10, 2009

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. — The family of an 8-year-old boy who fatally shot himself at a gun show in western Massachusetts say the Uzi submachine gun jammed twice before he lost control of the weapon and fired into his head.

The family of Christopher Bizilj (bah-SEEL') of Ashford, Conn., says in a civil lawsuit filed Friday that a 15-year-old instructor who cleared the gun and handed it back to the victim failed to provide proper guidance.
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The lawsuit names the owners of a gun club where the fair was held, promoters of the event and those who supplied the weapon and ammunition. None of those named in the lawsuit could be reached for comment after business hours Monday.

Bizilj shot himself at the Westfield Sportsman's Club in October 2008.

The boy's family claims the gun was defective and unreasonably dangerous, and they blame the failure to properly service it.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. Source. (http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091110/NEWS11/911109996/-1/NEWS11)

In case anyone is unaware, western Mass is fucking loony town.

[Sean of the Thread]

I knew they were going to eventually sue over that shit.

Retards.

My suggestion would be to not allow an 8 year old to fire an UZI.

I taught my 9 year old how to shoot with a bolt action single shot pellet rifle ffs. (she's pretty damned good... just like her pops.) She was 8 at the time of learning however.

[AnticorRifling]

Why was a 15yr old the instructor?

I do not believe in accidents when it comes to firearms. The parent should have checked the weapon (or not allowed the child to use it at all if they weren't comfortable with firearms themselves hello).

The weapon jammed twice? That's two times to stop and walk away from it, or you know take it from your child.

The boy's family claims the gun was defective and unreasonably dangerous, and they blame the failure to properly service it...Really? Really? No. It's unreasonably dangerous to had an automatic weapon to an 8 year old when it's not a weapon you know inside and out. It's defective parenting to not fully inspect a firearm you're letting your child use.

I'm willing to bet mom/dad doesn't know what a functions check is or what weapons conditions apply to this firearm.

Is it sad that a child died? Fuck yes it is. Is it the fault of anyone other than the parents? No.

[BriarFox]

Yeah, the previous version of this story was that the boy's dad let him fire the Uzi. I totally blame him. How fucking dumb do you have to be to give an 8yo an automatic weapon with stupid recoil?

[Keller]

I just hope those damn liberal socialist communist nutjobs don't try to regulate who can and cannot teach 8 year olds to fire Uzis.

The founding fathers were clear as day when they said that we have the right to bear arms. And that includes 8 year olds being taught to fire Uzi's by 15 year olds.

[AnticorRifling]

Yeah, the previous version of this story was that the boy's dad let him fire the Uzi. I totally blame him. How fucking dumb do you have to be to give an 8yo an automatic weapon with stupid recoil?

You're missing some things in there.

How fucking dumb do you have to be to give an 8yo an automatic weapon THAT YOU DON'T KNOW INSIDE AND OUT IN REGARDS TO FUNCTION AND EXPECTATION with stupid recoil?

My boys will have the chance to fire all of my weapons if:

1) They want to
2) I feel they are ready both mentally (to include training of usage and care) and physically able to handle them

That could be as early as 5 and as late in life as never if I feel they don't meet the conditions.

This is not a fault of the firearm, it is the fault of the parent.

[AnticorRifling]

I just hope those damn liberal socialist communist nutjobs don't try to regulate who can and cannot teach 8 year olds to fire Uzis.

The founding fathers were clear as day when they said that we have the right to bear arms. And that includes 8 year olds being taught to fire Uzi's by 15 year olds.


Make sure you don't blame the parents though Keller, that would be bad.

[Archigeek]

Agreed. No way an 8 year old should be firing that weapon. I don't care how mature they are. I'm surprised he didn't shoot someone else too. And a 15 year old attendant? Oye. That's almost as dumb. It isn't that a 15 year old can't know enough to do it, it's that, well, they're 15. 15 year olds are too busy worrying about zits and tits to do any work that requires concentration and responsibility on that level. When you're a little older and you've seen a few pair, you migrate to admiration instead of worrying about whether or not you'll ever see a pair. THEN you can responsibly hand out automatic weapons to everyone!

[AnticorRifling]

Agreed. No way an 8 year old should be firing that weapon. I don't care how mature they are. I'm surprised he didn't shoot someone else too. And a 15 year old attendant? Oye. That's almost as dumb. It isn't that a 15 year old can't know enough to do it, it's that, well, they're 15. 15 year olds are too busy worrying about zits and tits to do any work that requires concentration and responsibility on that level. When you're a little older and you've seen a few pair, you migrate to admiration instead of worrying about whether or not you'll ever see a pair. THEN you can responsibly hand out automatic weapons to everyone!

I'm assuming this was a joke post.

If not let me know and I can break it down for you.

[ElvenFury]

Definitely dad's fault. Honestly, I think this is another Darwinian example of stupid people removing their genes from the pool via firearms. Unfortunately, this guy let his son get shot, instead of accidentally shooting himself before he ever had kids.

[Warriorbird]

I was taught, at 10, with a .22 rifle. My cousin was taught, at 10, with a 9mm pistol.

Almost predictably he was the one who shot himself in the foot at 12.

[Keller]

Make sure you don't blame the parents though Keller, that would be bad.

You can absolutely blame the parents . . . and also say that we should regulate who can teach minors to use firearms.

[BriarFox]

What this article, which the family is obviously spinning from the original, doesn't say is that it was the recoil that killed the kid (if I recall). He pulled the trigger, the recoil pulled the barrel up and up until it curved back and pointed at his head, and then went off again.

[BriarFox]

I was taught, at 10, with a .22 rifle. My cousin was taught, at 10, with a 9mm pistol.

Almost predictably he was the one who shot himself in the foot at 12.

Yeah, my dad started me on a .22, too.

[AnticorRifling]

I've been shooting since 9. Couldn't tell you the first rifle but I want to say it was the 9mm carbine. I got to fire my first full auto at 12, fired my first 50 BMG at 14.

The age and the firearm aren't the issue here.

[AnticorRifling]

What this article, which the family is obviously spinning from the original, doesn't say is that it was the recoil that killed the kid (if I recall). He pulled the trigger, the recoil pulled the barrel up and up until it curved back and pointed at his head, and then went off again.

Not if it jammed twice. That was 2 times someone was trying to say HEY DAD TAKE THIS THE FUCK AWAY. Unless he sat there and watch his kid tap rack bang right on thru. Still the father is to blame for not knowing the physical traits of the firearm and how they would be handled by his child.

[Keller]

I've been shooting since 9. Couldn't tell you the first rifle but I want to say it was the 9mm carbine. I got to fire my first full auto at 12, fired my first 50 BMG at 14.

The age and the firearm aren't the issue here.

The teacher, is.

I was shooting guns down at Camp Atterbury with my dad when I was 9.

It was my dad teaching me, watching me, and making sure I didn't do anything stupid.

[AnticorRifling]

You can absolutely blame the parents . . . and also say that we should regulate who can teach minors to use firearms. See that's much better than your previous post. Was that so hard?

Blame those who need blamed, correct what needs corrected. No need to bring politics, the constitution, or things that don't matter into it :)

[Sean of the Thread]

Seriously the first time I fired an automatic I was surprised at how much it climbed and nearly jumped out of my hands.

That and the time my boss was firing my SKS and the pin stuck and slam fired the entire magazine. I'm not going to lie it was funny as shit but deadly. An oak tree got cut to pieces.

[Keller]

Not if it jammed twice. That was 2 times someone was trying to say HEY DAD TAKE THIS THE FUCK AWAY. Unless he sat there and watch his kid tap rack bang right on thru. Still the father is to blame for not knowing the physical traits of the firearm and how they would be handled by his child.

But not the person who was present with the obligation to teach the kid how to shoot it?

I'm not absolving the parents, I am just saying it's not like you say, "I blame the parents" and that is the end of the story.

[AnticorRifling]

The teacher, is.

I was shooting guns down at Camp Atterbury with my dad when I was 9.

It was my dad teaching me, watching me, and making sure I didn't do anything stupid.

Where this kids father watched him put a bullet in his grape after he (I'm assuming here) watched the instruction/training his son received and deemed it acceptable enough to let him continue on to the range.

If you don't feel your son is getting the correct amount of instruction you halt the process right there, you don't let it continue....

[Androidpk]

I don't care if your dad is Chuck Norris, letting an 8 year old handle a fully automatic weapon is completely reckless and irresponsible.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't care if your dad is Chuck Norris, letting an 8 year old handle a fully automatic weapon without proper training and supervision is completely reckless and irresponsible.

I agree.

[Sean of the Thread]

I started with a pellet rifle as well. Was a good starting point and I spent countless hours and pellets for awhile before I moved up to a 30/30 I think at 6 years old shooting wood chucks and groundhogs that were eating our hay.

I also competed in national competitions (never getting beyond the south east championship) as well.

I still blame the parent in this situation without a doubt in my mind. I would NEVER let my 8 yo touch any of my real guns... she has a hard enough time carrying my heavy ben sherridan pellet rifle.

[AnticorRifling]

That's because she is a wuss.

[Archigeek]

I'm assuming this was a joke post.

If not let me know and I can break it down for you.

Let me parse out my attempt at prose, and I'll break it down for you. Honestly, I don't think we disagree here:

8 year olds shouldn't be firing automatic weapons. 15 year olds shouldn't be in charge of handing out automatic weapons.

At 15, you just don't have the stones to not just be responsible for yourself, but more importantly for other people.

The parents were responsible for their child, and should have recognized this as a reckless and dangerous situation.

[Warriorbird]

Parental attitude is everything with regards to firearms and firearm training. I'm sure you were pretty damn well taught and well watched, Anticor.

[Celephais]

I was taught, at 10, with a .22 rifle. My cousin was taught, at 10, with a 9mm pistol.

Almost predictably he was the one who shot himself in the foot at 12.
umm... what does the fact that he was taught with a 9mm pistol have to do with gun safety and responsibility? If you don't see how the weapon itself is irrelevant, then I'd say your instructor failed.

You could have been taught at 10 with a gatling gun, doesn't matter.

[Asha]

Kids should be allowed knives at 8-15 than move to pistols, then anything they like at 18.
21 if you're in America.

[BriarFox]

umm... what does the fact that he was taught with a 9mm pistol have to do with gun safety and responsibility? If you don't see how the weapon itself is irrelevant, then I'd say your instructor failed.

You could have been taught at 10 with a gatling gun, doesn't matter.

I think AR's point was that a pistol makes you inherently more reckless than a rifle. However, the point about supervision and safety is completely accurate either way.

[Androidpk]

Proper training isn't everything. That's why you don't see 8 year olds driving tractor trailer trucks or flying jumbo jets.

[AnticorRifling]

Let me parse out my attempt at prose, and I'll break it down for you. Honestly, I don't think we disagree here:

8 year olds shouldn't be firing automatic weapons.

Without proper training, supervision, and a very high comfort level from a responsible and informed parent.


15 year olds shouldn't be in charge of handing out automatic weapons.

Most 15 year olds sure. I could have at that age but I also was mature enough to not want that kind of responsibility. To lump all of an age group together is just bad cricket.

At 15, you just don't have the stones to not just be responsible for yourself, but more importantly for other people.

I disagree, but we covered that.

The parents were responsible for their child, and should have recognized this as a reckless and dangerous situation.

They weren't responsible that's the problem, but I do agree with you on this point they should have recognized the danger but they didn't because they suck and now their kid is dead.

[TheEschaton]

Proper training isn't everything. That's why you don't see 8 year olds driving tractor trailer trucks or flying jumbo jets.

Win.

AR, I think it was irresponsible for you to be shooting anything automatic below the age of legal responsibility. If you can't be charged as an adult with a crime, you shouldn't be shooting adult weapons. I don't care if you were mature and responsible, you are certainly the exception and not the rule, and the rule must always be for the safety of most. The plain fact of the matter is, 8yo's should not be handling automatics. Ever. I don't care if you yourself trained them.

[Celephais]

I think AR's point was that a pistol makes you inherently more reckless than a rifle.
... No I got his point, and I was saying it was flat out wrong. A pistol can kill someone the same as a rifle, if WB is saying that he was somehow safer because he was using a rifle, then his instructor failed.

However, the point about supervision and safety is completely accurate either way.
Agreed.

[AnticorRifling]

Proper training isn't everything. That's why you don't see 8 year olds driving tractor trailer trucks or flying jumbo jets.


Proper training is everything. With proper training the parent could see, assess and act upon the physical limitation of his child's physical inability to control recoil. Kind of like seeing, assessing and acting upon his physical inability to control/operate/use an 18wheeler or jumbo jet due to not touching the pedals, reading the instrument panels, or seeing over the dash. That would be a lack of control.

[Keller]

Win.

AR, I think it was irresponsible for you to be shooting anything automatic below the age of legal responsibility.

That is a bit circular because he was engaged in an adult activity, making him an age of legal responsibility.

Noodle that for a bit.

[Warriorbird]

umm... what does the fact that he was taught with a 9mm pistol have to do with gun safety and responsibility? If you don't see how the weapon itself is irrelevant, then I'd say your instructor failed.

You could have been taught at 10 with a gatling gun, doesn't matter.

Gun choice can be indicative of attitude.

[Androidpk]

So if the cockpit was custom fitted to allow a child to reach all the controls that would be OK? :D

[Sean of the Thread]

That's because she is a wuss.


My girls can beat up your boys!

[Warriorbird]

So if the cockpit was custom fitted to allow a child to reach all the controls that would be OK? :D

http://chud.com/articles/content_images/5/ender.jpg

[AnticorRifling]

Win.

AR, I think it was irresponsible for you to be shooting anything automatic below the age of legal responsibility. If you can't be charged as an adult with a crime, you shouldn't be shooting adult weapons. I don't care if you were mature and responsible, you are certainly the exception and not the rule, and the rule must always be for the safety of most. The plain fact of the matter is, 8yo's should not be handling automatics. Ever. I don't care if you yourself trained them.

I'll say this again.

There are no accident when it comes to firearms.

I don't feel I'm an exception, I received proper training...if that's the exception then there is the problem.

The can't be charged as an adult comment did make me laugh though. I mean I shouldn't be issued my penis until 18 then because if I raped someone at 12 that's just juvie time. :) Apples to tonka trucks I know and I'm sorry but it was funny to me.

[AnticorRifling]

http://chud.com/articles/content_images/5/ender.jpg My favorite book, nicely done.

[Sean of the Thread]

So if the cockpit was custom fitted to allow a child to reach all the controls that would be OK? :D


I think Israel starts flight training at 14 yo as a norm?

It's not unheard of to see children flying planes but 8 years old? No thanks.

[Celephais]

Proper training is everything.
As long as we make the assumption that proper training includes understanding/utilizing the training (you can get your drivers license and intentionally slam into a wall). One of the basic tenants of any dangerous activity is knowing that you are not up to the task. You could have a 8 year old who, properly trained, would know enough to say "I am unfamiliar with this weapon, I'd like to watch operation, and then only put one bullet in the clip so I can get a feel for it".

[AnticorRifling]

So if the cockpit was custom fitted to allow a child to reach all the controls that would be OK? :D Duh of course that would be ok, child labor just got into logistics! Woo woo

[Sean of the Thread]

I'll say this again.

There are no accident when it comes to firearms.




This sums it up. And yes I've had several accidents as well that were all preventable including a slam fire and a cook off.

[AnticorRifling]

As long as we make the assumption that proper training includes understanding/utilizing the training (you can get your drivers license and intentionally slam into a wall). One of the basic tenants of any dangerous activity is knowing that you are not up to the task. You could have a 8 year old who, properly trained, would know enough to say "I am unfamiliar with this weapon, I'd like to watch operation, and then only put one bullet in the clip so I can get a feel for it".


That's where the trainer comes in. You don't start a kid out with a full clip. You work up to that.

Shit when I take my friends shooting I don't start them with a full clip on any of my weapons.

Because we are talking about children (I mean real children not liberals I KID) the parent has to be there. If the parent knows the weapon is going to kick up he/she should be there to assist and to make sure it doesn't. If the parent doesn't know what the firearm is capable of he/she shouldn't put it in the mitts of the child.

[AnticorRifling]

This sums it up. And yes I've had several accidents as well that were all preventable including a slam fire and a cook off.

Incidents, not accidents.

[Celephais]

Gun choice can be indicative of attitude.
In some cases yes, but it's pretty ignorant to think that gun choice was the issue. (You also didn't say it was a choice, could have just been what was at his instructors disposal).

[Warriorbird]

I dunno. Would he have been as likely to shoot himself with a rifle? I don't think so.

[Celephais]

I dunno. Would he have been as likely to shoot himself with a rifle? I don't think so.
/facepalm

[Warriorbird]

It obviously isn't ALL of it or even most of it but logistics have an impact.

[Celephais]

It obviously isn't ALL of it or even most of it but logistics have an impact.
Basic gun safety doesn't change based on the gun. Some guns may let those who don't practice proper gun safety get away without shooting themselves, but that doesn't change the fact that your friend would have been unsafe with a rifle, a pistol, or a box of matches.

What part about "always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction" do you think doesn't apply to rifles?

[Androidpk]

/facepalm

I think he may have a point. A cousin of mine started out using akimbo pistols. Now he's dealing in drugs and prostitution for the Yakuza.

We all saw it coming.

[Celephais]

I think he may have a point. A cousin of mine started out using akimbo pistols. Now he's dealing in drugs and prostitution for the Yakuza.

We all saw it coming.
Damnit... I can't rep you

[Sean of the Thread]

Incidents, not accidents.


:( pwned


Very true.

Same as alcohol related CRASHES are not accidents. Always peeves me when I hear accident in something preventable and I just did the same. my bad.

[ElvenFury]

Kids should be allowed knives at 8-15 than move to pistols, then anything they like at 18.
21 if you're in America.

No matter how much you wish George Washington was your dad, he still won't save you.

[Celephais]

No matter how much you wish George Washington was your dad, he still won't save you.
Infact he's going to put his wife's hand in a vat of acid.

[Sean of the Thread]

I dunno George did fuck the shit out bears... He might be able to save anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA


*my bad I forgot that he will save children but not the British children...

[ElvenFury]

Was that a wooshing sound I just heard?

[Sean of the Thread]

Was that a wooshing sound I just heard?


Yes it was. Near hurricane strength as well. :(

[EasternBrand]

Tangential, but this past weekend I fired a gun (several, really) for the first time in my life. It was good fun. I had an extremely knowledgeable instructor and I plan on doing it again soon.

Anyway, I can't buy the argument that it's okay to hand an Uzi to an 8 year old, no matter the circumstances. The point has already been suggested, but you can't put an 8 year old in the driver's seat, even if he's got a booster seat, pedal extensions, and his parent or legal guardian is sitting right next to him. It's illegal because we, as a society, made the choice to exalt group safety over personal responsibility.

We chose group safety because of the feeling that 8 year-olds, as a group, are not equipped with the physical and mental capabilities to operate cars. Of course it doesn't hold true for everyone; but just because at 8 years old YOU had the physical and mental capability to operate a car doesn't mean that OTHERS did, nor does it mean that you SHOULD have done so. The counterargument is not just that proper training and supervision make it okay, because the purpose and nature of firearms require a justification as to why we should choose personal responsibility over group safety when we decide to hand over automatic weapons to 8 year olds. So far, I haven't seen that.

[Sean of the Thread]

The point has already been suggested, but you can't put an 8 year old in the driver's seat, even if he's got a booster seat, pedal extensions, and his parent or legal guardian is sitting right next to him.



UNLESS YOU'RE FUCKING INDIANA HANS SOLO JONES BITCH!

[AnticorRifling]

Tangential, but this past weekend I fired a gun (several, really) for the first time in my life.


What did you shoot? Don't leave out important details.

[Sean of the Thread]

Since you brought that up I've decided not use the frangible rounds in the mossberg because that would be an INCIDENT waiting to happen with the steel walls in this apt.

It would be like a smal frag grenade going off in the room if it hit the wall.

[AnticorRifling]

Can't go wrong with rock salt. Non lethal and burns like a mother bitch.

[Sean of the Thread]

Thing is it needs to be lethal to the bad guy just not anyone else including myself.

Bad guys that live sue...


***I'm fairly certain these walls will stop anything up to say a 7.62 round... those I've seen cut through engine blocks like butter.

[AnticorRifling]

DRT rounds are the way to go then.

[Androidpk]

The counterargument is not just that proper training and supervision make it okay, because the purpose and nature of firearms require a justification as to why we should choose personal responsibility over group safety when we decide to hand over automatic weapons to 8 year olds. So far, I haven't seen that.


Wait for the zombie invasion. That will be good justification.

[ElvenFury]

Thing is it needs to be lethal to the bad guy just not anyone else including myself.

Bad guys that live sue...

That's why you bury them in Paul Schulz's grave afterward, amirite?!

[Parkbandit]

Can't go wrong with rock salt. Non lethal and burns like a mother bitch.

I thought they only carried that in shotgun shells?

I currently have 3 rounds of snakeshot, followed by regular rounds in my clip. If the guy didn't buy himself a clue after the first 3 shots, chances are he's too stupid to live anyway.

[AnticorRifling]

I thought they only carried that in shotgun shells?

Which is why I told him to do that...since you know he's USING A SHOTGUN.

[Sean of the Thread]

PB might not have known that Moss-berg was in reference to a shotty in his defense. I mean if there's not a chest gold dot on his radar he might get lost and all.

http://gabrielescu.com/gungallery/mossberg-500.jpg

[EasternBrand]

What did you shoot? Don't leave out important details.

Heh, sorry. Mostly a 9mm Glock, and couple of rounds each from a .40 cal Glock and a .357 magnum. Finished with a handful of rounds from an HK MP5. Shot at about 10 yards out and I felt pretty good about my grouping for a first-timer.

[Sean of the Thread]

I hope so at 10 yards...

And also I do enjoy shooting an MP5. Smooooth.

[BriarFox]

10 yards. Heh. That reminds me of my CCW "class." It was 4 hours of an incomprehensible Mexican NRA instructor explaining how the slide on a pistol worked and how you should have a safe room in your house, and then 30 rounds on a 10-yard range. My stepmom could barely hit the target from that distance. I finally had to tell her to stop aiming and just point and shoot.

[Sean of the Thread]

Man this conversation wound up with me on sigsauer.com and I about jizzed.

It's a great sub for pr0n.

[Androidpk]

10 yards. Heh. That reminds me of my CCW "class." It was 4 hours of an incomprehensible Mexican NRA instructor explaining how the slide on a pistol worked and how you should have a safe room in your house, and then 30 rounds on a 10-yard range. My stepmom could barely hit the target from that distance. I finally had to tell her to stop aiming and just point and shoot.

Was she holding the gun sideways?

[Sean of the Thread]

BOOYAH
http://www.catholicregister.org/images/stories/misc/misc09/GangBanger.jpg

[BriarFox]

Was she holding the gun sideways?

No, but why she was missing so badly was pretty incomprehensible. I think she was just squinting and jerking as she squeezed the trigger, but it was hard to tell (I was standing way the hell behind the crazy woman).

[Sean of the Thread]

Damn she should not be carrying a firearm.