Myths

[Parkbandit]

Bob's misunderstanding of how experience is absorbed got me thinking of some myths I used to think worked.

1) Drop a piece of cheese in the catacombs and the rats will generate faster.

2) Drop a coin in kobolds and tap it and the kobolds will generate faster.

3) The town clerk will give you a message faster if you repeatedly annoy him by asking him for a job.

4) Tower and wall shields give more defense than a regular shield.

Who else has some? Come on.. we won't laugh at you too long.

[Ilvane]

I know! Rubbing a smooth stone will help you absorb faster!

I think the idea of rats coming for cheese would be cute, if they were mice. I don't know if rats like cheese as much.;)

-A

[Parkbandit]

Was just informed that playing an instrument in front of a crowd does NOT aid in getting promoted.

[Taernath]

Pinning this thread in hopes of sinking some of these rumors.

As Kranar said in the other thread, your position (standing, sitting etc.) has no bearing on experience absorption. The only thing that will slow down learning is a WEAPON in your right hand, anything else has no effect.

A couple other ones I've heard are that tkaro root gives extra TP's or aids in learning. Both are FALSE. Tkaro root only shuts off your thought nets (Voln included).

4) Tower and wall shields give more defense than a regular shield.

That one is a very widespread myth. I think it started with the release of the very first tower shields which had an extra +5 on top of whatever enchantments they had at the time. That caused people to think ALL tower/wall shields have an extra +5, which isn't true. Hopefully whoever sees people selling or buying shields marked as having a tower bonus will correct them.

[Scott]

I thought I remember reading that in GS4 tower shields will have a bonus of some sort. (Yes I know they don't now and never have.) I thought I remember something about it helping you block better....

[imported_Kranar]

Hah, the tower shield myth! I almost forgot about that!

Question: Are there any "myths" that are unconfirmed? Perhaps some myths may be true afterall.

I remember one myth that is sort of true, but mostly untrue, is that combat maneuvers helps in dodging maneuver attacks.

There are plenty of myths surrounding maneuver attacks, many of which the validity remains undetermined.

[Edited on 7-25-2003 by Kranar]

[Taernath]

There's the whole "it's easier to dodge boil/spike/burrowing in offensive stance" that hasn't really been confirmed or denied yet. I don't remember there ever being any empirical testing on it, but if someone wants to now would be an excellent time with the test server.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Taernath
There's the whole "it's easier to dodge boil/spike/burrowing in offensive stance" that hasn't really been confirmed or denied yet. I don't remember there ever being any empirical testing on it, but if someone wants to now would be an excellent time with the test server.

I remember hunting roa'ters and trying this out. I truely believe being in offensive helps with combat manuevers, because I died so much more before I stayed in offensive with roa'ters burrowing........

[Bobmuhthol]

Offensive stance helps with maneuvers.

[imported_Kranar]

Actually what being in offensive stance does is give you an encumberance bonus.

Encumberance does play the biggest role in maneuver attacks for most people (armor is the heaviest weighted factor, but most people are trained for their armor).

So by being in offensive stance, you do indirectly improve your chance of dodging since your less encumbered. You can prove that being in offensive gives you a bonus by withdrawing 1000 silvers from the bank in defensive, then type in ENC. The moment your encumberance level increases, go into offensive stance and type in ENC again, you will see that your encumberance level will decrease.

Additionally, standing up is also easier to do in offensive stance, as is any encumberance/weight related activity.

[imported_Kranar]

One myth that I'm certain is false, but have been unable to confirm is Lohlem's propaganda that training in physical training helps dodge maneuver attacks.

Anyone have any insight to share on that?

[Scott]

Originally posted by Kranar
Additionally, standing up is also easier to do in offensive stance, as is any encumberance/weight related activity.

Makes sense. Since most scripts I download where you have to get on the ground (IE darkstone), go to offensive stance to stand up, then jump back to defensive.

[Taernath]

Originally posted by Kranar
One myth that I'm certain is false, but have been unable to confirm is Lohlem's propaganda that training in physical training helps dodge maneuver attacks.

Anyone have any insight to share on that?

I've heard that one quite a bit too. He's getting his info from a post Warden supposedly made in either the warrior or wizard folder that said PT was a factor in maneuver attacks. Unfortunately, every time I've asked for a copy of this post no one has it on hand or can remember when it was posted. That's not neccessarily a reason to discount it though, as maneuver attacks are known to take into account many factors.

[imported_Kranar]

<< He's getting his info from a post Warden supposedly made in either the warrior or wizard folder that said PT was a factor in maneuver attacks. >>

I know the post he's reffering to because I was debating the issue with him heavily on the wizard's boards.

The post stated that in the Illoke Stronghold, the maneuver roll is based on 40 different factors and that most of them centered on physical fitness.

[Drew2]

I was told today that playing an intsrument increases absorption rate. Any truth in that?

[Kriztian]

Originally posted by Kranar
One myth that I'm certain is false, but have been unable to confirm is Lohlem's propaganda that training in physical training helps dodge maneuver attacks.

Anyone have any insight to share on that?

I might be able to shed a little light on that one, Kranar. I have the infamous Warden quote saved whenever this question comes up. Granted it is from 1998 but interpret it as you will:

"I consider players to be fully trained for their armor when they have no RT penalty. Many spells other than Mobility and Prayer will aid in maneuvers where a shield would be of benefit. Converting to a rank based system places the emphasis on continued training. There is still benefit for dabbling. There are roughly 35-40 variables that can come into play when determining a player's success. Combat maneuvers is one, as is Physical Fitness, and while each can provide a nice benefit, neither is what I would call a make-or-break skill. Assuming 'typical' training (as determined by sampling the population), full spellcasters who are trained for their armor and unencumbered will succeed more often than they fail. Train in the things that you feel are appropriate for your character." Warden

The real question I have always had, is: does over training in physical health help? At 85 trains and fully doubled in physical train, I came to believe it does. My only reason for saying so is, before reallocation, I was barely over single trained in physical health and I got smacked by shaman in the stronghold and vipers in the Black Forest OFTEN (stone fist and spit). The instant I reallocated, being fully doubled in physical train, the maneuver attacks seemed to almost completely disappear (even when packing 5 to 8 boxes). (All other factors were the same, armor train, CM, etc.). So I guess I'm in Lohlem's camp.

[Bobmuhthol]

I was also failing more often than succeeding at 25 ranks of physical training compared to 40.

[imported_Kranar]

See, but Warden also states that Physical Fitness (which I can only assume is physical training) is not a make or break skill, and what you're describing is quite clearly a make or break skill.

With 40 different factors, do you really think that physical training could have accounted for such a dramatic increase in your ability to maneuver?

I honestly want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll play the devil's advocate. I'm not convinced yet, although I suppose there does seem to be a basis for this myth afterall.

[imported_Kranar]

Oh and thanks for re-posting that most infamous of all posts.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Many spells other than Mobility and Prayer will aid in maneuvers where a shield would be of benefit. >>

What the hell does that even mean?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<What the hell does that even mean?>>

An expert of both English and GemStone wouldn't know what he was talking about, don't worry. That is one screwed up sentence.

[longshot]

I got one...

for the best results when skinning, kneel down.

Discuss!

[Dighn Darkbeam]

I heard Skinning is done best kneeling. I saw a post where someone used testing to prove that stance and what is in your other hand does not effect it. Skinning with small edged weapons is also supposed to help.

Other rumors... Stance plays a part in EXP absorption..I always rest in Stance off with nothing in my hands while laying down if at a table...Just in case.

Kris na Su'ta

[Parkbandit]

Kneeling has been shown to actually aid in skinning. I too saw the same post and have a skinner.

While we can never be absolutely 100% sure... I do find that my ranger skins more effectively when kneeling than just standing.

[Parkbandit]

The weapon in right hand does slow experience gain... but I have not found that laying down does anything.

I've not checked to see if being in offensive stance works or not.. but it's easy to find out.

[imported_Kranar]

Kneeling DOES help. Warden said so himself.

Wounds on the critter decreases the value, weapon type is also a factor, those common skinning knives are no better than a dagger, not being trained for your armor works against you, stance has no effect... what else... can't think of anything else at the moment.

[imported_Kranar]

Repost on exp absorption issue... I tested all these factors out:

<< Wearing no armor... helps>>

False.

<< having empty hands... helps >>

False. Only a weapon in your RIGHT hand slows down exp absorption.

<< lying down... helps >>

False.


<< and going into an offensive stance all help you absorb. >>

False.

[Taernath]

Here's the skinning post.

Category Strategies, Tactics, and Hunting (3)
Topic Research and Investigation (8)
By CAPPER from PLAY.NET
On Aug 6, 2002 at 09:43
Message Some skinning research (5517)

It's been stated what some of the factors are that help with skinning, and some have speculated, so I decided to test a few factors. I wanted to see not only if they indeed made a difference, but to what extent. This research ended up being a lot more meticulous and time-consuming than I at first anticipated because it takes a lot of critters to get data that's statistically meaningful. Anyway, here it is.

All the research was done on kiramon in T'allistim by my rogue, who has 130 first aid skill. In order to isolate each factor so it was the only variable, each skinning was performed with the following things in common:
-unencumbered
-no wounds or scars
-the kiramon were all killed with a single ambush shot to the neck, and had no other wounds

Results:

standing, with a falchion, shield in left hand, stance defensive
success: 78/130 = 60.0%
total worth: 30,293
average mandible: 388.4
average/critter: 233.0

standing, with a dagger, shield in left hand, stance defensive
success: 89/130 = 68.5%
total worth: 36,835
average mandible: 413.9
average/critter: 283.3

kneeling, with a dagger, shield in left hand, stance defensive
success: 109/133 = 82.0%
total worth: 45,428
average mandible: 416.8
average/critter: 341.6

kneeling, with a dagger, empty left hand, stance defensive
success: 110/130 = 84.6%
total worth: 42,963
average mandible: 390.6
average/critter: 330.5

kneeling, with a dagger, empty left hand, stance offensive
success: 103/130 = 79.2%
total worth: 42,925
average mandible: 416.7
average/critter: 330.2

Conclusions:

Using a dagger helps.
Kneeling helps.
Having an empty left hand makes little to no difference.
Stance makes little to no difference.

[imported_Kranar]

CAPPER is a good man.

[Blazing247]

I noticed the "stance offensive helps you absorb quicker" myth begin to circulate around the time they changed meditation. It used to be that you could meditate in defensive and gain all benefits, but after a bunch of us decided to camp/meditate in the Castle, they changed it so that you need to be in an offensive stance to gain full benefit from meditation.

As far as myths go...when I started out, a few of us fully believed that High Lord Bleeds was in fact a cleric. He would carry around mind jolt and sleep rods with him, so you never really saw him cast a sorcerous spell. It wasn't until I saw him Evil Eye at the hob pass that I realized he wasn't a priest in the clerical sense of the word.

[imported_Kranar]

Wow! I thought High Lord Bleeds was a cleric too!

[Kriztian]

Originally posted by Kranar
<< Many spells other than Mobility and Prayer will aid in maneuvers where a shield would be of benefit. >>

What the hell does that even mean?

I've often pondered that one myself. Warden cannot be accused of being lucid every time. Unfortunately for us!

[longshot]

Taernath, thanks for reposting that.

Now, if you have a smooth stone in your left hand, what will happen...?

[Askip]

The last study I read on kneeling & skinning showed that kneeling will help you skin the mob, but it does not improve the quality of the pelt.

[StrayRogue]

One myth I know of is that having more coins on you increases your chances of getting navved with a gold ring.

[Zentoph]

I've heard that skinning a creature after you kill it will yield more experience then if you don't skin it. (I skip skinning)

Does anyone know if this is true or not?

-Soroth

[Drew2]

I'm pretty sure that skinning a creature takes away some favor if you're in Voln. Undead ones, that is.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tayre
I'm pretty sure that skinning a creature takes away some favor if you're in Voln. Undead ones, that is.

I imagine that is a myth... though it would be rather hard to prove/disprove due to the general nature of how favor is calculated.

I guess if someone was right on the cusp of getting to speak with the monk and only skinned undead critters without seeing them or aiding in their release.. then it would be able to be proven.

[Taernath]

Originally posted by Zentoph
I've heard that skinning a creature after you kill it will yield more experience then if you don't skin it. (I skip skinning)

Does anyone know if this is true or not?

-Soroth

There's a very easy way to test that.

Empty your mind so you have 0 exp waiting to be absorbed. Find a critter that you can learn from that can be skinned, then kill and skin it. Wait for the exp to drain out and calculate how much you learned. Find another of the critters that is the same level, but don't skin this one. Compare results.

[Edited on 7/29/03 by Taernath]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Zentoph
I've heard that skinning a creature after you kill it will yield more experience then if you don't skin it. (I skip skinning)

Does anyone know if this is true or not?

-Soroth

Never ran the numbers on this.. but I imagine that's a myth. Do you get experience from skinning without actually partaking in the creature's demise? I don't think you do, but that would be easy to check.

[StrayRogue]

Skinning undead, as far as I know, has no effect on favour.

[Red Devil]

>>Wounds on the critter decreases the value<<


I remember when EN has just opened up and me and jamus cash hunted those vipers, ambushing the neck would net 800-1.2k fangs while ambushing the head would get like 500-800

[Taernath]

Yeah, hitting the area where a skin comes from decreases the value.. Things like horns, teeth, scalps are from the head, pelts and skins are generally from the back or abdomen, etc.

[StrayRogue]

Yep, all true. Its what makes such spells as Disease, Poison, and Blood Burst (probably a few others), nice. Any spell that doesn't cause damage generally will leave a corpse with the potential for a nice skin.

[Adhara]

There is a random factor in the value. I don't know if this random value is critter based or not but I will give you the example of lesser vruuls.

Background information:
My first aid skill is 344 (244 ranks)
I skin them from standing with a dagger
All my skins are of magnificent quality

Vruul #1 killed with 302 in one shot leaving no wound:
value around 1500 silvers

Vruul #2 killed with 302 in one shot leaving no wound:
value around 500 silvers

Vruul #3 killed with one ambush shot to the head leaving a head trauma:
value 1500 silvers

Vruul #4 killed with one ambush shot to the head leaving a head trauma:
value 500 silvers

These are the extreme values and I got everything in between. I tried ambushing several parts and checking the values and while hitting the back definitely ruins the skin money wise (magnificent quality for 175 silvers) all the other areas seemed to give me anywhere between 500 to 1500.

This seems like a very wide range and I have noticed a significant decrease in the average value of my skins between 2 weeks ago and these last couple days. 2 weeks ago, repelling them for about an hour yielded around 200k in skins. The same indiscriminate repelling this week gives me roughly 120k an hour. I also noticed that they got significantly poorer. I used to get a diamond/emerald or two an hour and quite a few sapphires. Now I'm lucky to get 1 sapphire an hour, the rest being all topaz or less. Maybe coincidence, maybe not.

[StrayRogue]

The treasure system isn't constant. If its exhausted it can take several hours, days, even weeks to recharge. How quickly and easily it can be exhausted all depends on how quickly and how many critters you kill. The older the area, the longer it lasts.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Adhara
This seems like a very wide range and I have noticed a significant decrease in the average value of my skins between 2 weeks ago and these last couple days. 2 weeks ago, repelling them for about an hour yielded around 200k in skins. The same indiscriminate repelling this week gives me roughly 120k an hour. I also noticed that they got significantly poorer. I used to get a diamond/emerald or two an hour and quite a few sapphires. Now I'm lucky to get 1 sapphire an hour, the rest being all topaz or less. Maybe coincidence, maybe not.

Well, assuming those values were from a couple weeks ago, you were killing roughly 200 vruul an hour? That's more than 3 a minute. Depending on how many hours a day you were hunting, I'd say that yes, that will hurt the treasure there. I never knew that the value of skins could go down as well, but I guess it would make sense. If something is successfully skinned more often and the skin is sold more often, it's not as rare, so it's not worth as much.

Vruul used to be my favorite hunting spot. My age range, decent favor, good treasure, and a long enough walk so that there weren't many people. I haven't been hunting there lately because, yes, the treasure has been extremely poor, and I can't skin.

Jorddyn

[longshot]

I heard that meditating in the meditation room to check your favor costs favor. Any truth to this one?

[imported_Kranar]

Yeah, it's true.

[Parkbandit]

Does kneeling or sitting help when you pick or disarm a box?

[Artha]

Wait, I don't think it does cost favor to pray in the meditation room...how did you check it?

[imported_Kranar]

<< Wait, I don't think it does cost favor to pray in the meditation room...how did you check it? >>

When your new to Voln, it's easy to notice that if you pray enough times in a row then your favor decreases.

[Artha]

I've never noticed that (then again, I've never prayed more than once a trip). It'd have to go down multiple levels to be sure though, because there's a small overlap of how much favor to which vision.

[Trinitis]

actually, if I remember right, one of the GM's says the visions are NOT under a standard system. So, they can change randomly. Annoyingly so.

-Adredrin

[Artha]

They are an accurate reflection of how far you're going...there's just overlap, occasionally. What sucks is when you're in Mule, and young enough that you're probably going to die on the trip, and go because it says you're done...then have to kill stuff in the graveyard.

[Solkern]

Lets see I heard a rumor that manna bread affects spirit,
Also heard having coins on ya makes gold rings more naavable.
Does checking your footing actually help ya on the trip to and from icemule ont he ice patches?
Which absorbs faster symbol of dreams or a clerics ablity to mediate?

[Taernath]

Lets see I heard a rumor that manna bread affects spirit,

That's easy enough to test, but I'm assuming it's incorrect.

Also heard having coins on ya makes gold rings more naavable.

No.

Does checking your footing actually help ya on the trip to and from icemule ont he ice patches?

No. All that matters is the time you spend in a room before moving, which is around 5 seconds. I forget what the 'check your footing' verb is, isn't it gaze down?

Which absorbs faster symbol of dreams or a clerics ablity to mediate?

From my experience, I'd say symbol of dreams... but that's just a guess.

[Solkern]

I heard the manna bread effects spirit is false, but I see alot of people going here eat some bread get your spirit back faster..thought it was called manna bread for a reason..helps with manna

[Bobmuhthol]

It used to be gaze down. It was changed. Gaze down is now You hang your head. I forget the new footing verb. Symbol of Dreams would most likely gain more because you have to go through so many Voln steps to get it, not just roll a cleric.

[Solkern]

Dunno, I heard from some people clierc is faster some say dreams is faster

[Bobmuhthol]

Manna has nothing to do with mana. Mana is spiritual energy, manna is the bread that was given to the Israelites.

[Solkern]

Funny.

[Taernath]

Manna bread is like the spell Heroism in that it adds an extra pulse of 1 mana and a couple HP every half-pulse, nothing more. In fact, I just tested it, there was no extra spirit recovery.

[Parkbandit]

If someone cuts off your leg in town, you just have to wait until you lose all your Hps and the attacker will be arrested for murder.

One of my favorite myths. Enormis fell for it this weekend. :)

[Weedmage Princess]

If I remember correctly, gaze down always made you hang your head...gaze my feet is the one to check your footing.

[Snapp]

Gaze down used to make you check footing, they changed it not too long ago.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Gaze my feet

[Xcalibur]

Well getting favors is reduced by the fact if you skin them seems to be true

Took me 1 day to get a step, i moved to zombies and get around the same amount of favor (slk) per hunt. But i skinned them.

Took me 2 days to get a step, I stop skining them. The next step took me 1.4 day

[StrayRogue]

You are aware zombies vary in age?

[Xcalibur]

That's why i've said the next day i didn't skin and step way faster

Still i think it's stupid

[StrayRogue]

Erm no. The way to check this is to hunt a critter with one level. You may have stepped faster because you were hunting more lvl 24 Zombies than the day before hand. Its hardly a fair test.

[Xcalibur]

Name me one critter that don't vary in age and you can skin it, i'll test it, i'm soon to be master (and i think you're at 0 favor when you master)

[StrayRogue]

Hey, I'm not the voln man, though I am pretty sure Wraiths are a static 15. Its not too hard to test. And yes you continue to earn favour when you master, as your symbols still need power.

[OoK]

A couple things:

Skinning does not effect favor.
Manna Bread does have a spirit recovery factor (I believe it is every 2 or every 4 manna bread pulses you get a spirit back)
Meditation and Dreams are the same if you don't have a weapon out and in offensive, which are the conditions that maximize return.
Meditating does not use favor.

[Edited on 10-20-2003 by OoK]

[Adhara]

Yep I second that about the manna bread affecting spirit. I didn't believe it myself until a friend had me test it.

[Xcalibur]

how about perception skills with getting money when searching a monster?

more means more silvers?

[Wezas]

Myths about stealing I've heard from someone that supposedly "Porcell had confirmed"

1) Injuries increase the chance of getting caught
2) Scars increase the chance of getting caught
3) Not having both hands open increases the change of getting caught.

Porcell has said on the boards that #2 is not true, not sure about the rest.

I'm curious:

Is everyone's minimum silver you can steal from someone 20? That is, if they have more then that in their pockets (of course if they have 10, you'll take 10). Mine seems to be 20, and if it's less then 20 then I know/assume someone's silverless.

:: Edited to fix a spelling error before Tayre goes apeshit ::

[Edited on 10-20-2003 by Wezas]

[Miss X]

Give me back my 900 silver Wezas! :lol:

[StrayRogue]

I've stolen less than 20 many times before, though I do feel there is perhaps a soft cap as you increase in skill in which the smallest amount of silvers stolen increases.

The rest of the above is true.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Miss X
Give me back my 900 silver Wezas! :lol:

She Lies!

http://members.cox.net/legendwezas/chica.jpg

It was only 239

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Miss X
Give me back my 900 silver Wezas! :lol:

She Lies!

http://members.cox.net/legendwezas/chica.jpg

It was only 239

Dammit.. will you debug that thing already and give a real thief an opportunity to figure out how much he's made in the past 2 years stealing?

God.. you post that here to only tease me... and I hate you for that. :sniffle:

[Miss X]

Bah, more people stealing from me! :flamed:
Hehehe

[OoK]

Wounds, Scars, and what you have in your hands has no effect on stealing in GS3. GS4 is a whole nother matter.
The maximum amount of silver you can steal in GS3 is equal to your skill bonus in picking pockets. Your minimum pull is equal to one eighth of your max. The amount of silver that you will pull in any given attempt is a random amount between your min pull and your max pull. So if I have 240 bonus in picking pockets, I have a max pull of 240 silver, min pull of 30 silver, and I will pull randomly between 30 and 240 silver.
Perception only helps with treasure on certain critters, such has glacie gems, kiramon, and magru.

[StrayRogue]

How is it possible to test the perception/treasure myth though?

[Artha]

Hunt critters, record treasure, find the average.

Level, train more in perception, hunt the same critters, record treasure, and find the average.

That said, the myth is false.

[Askip]

With skill migration in GS4 it will be easier to test loot/perception, but I would not bother for the first few weeks. I have a feeling Simu will be adjusting (they'd call it tweaking, I'd call it incomplete) various things for a while.

[phantasm]

Did anyone ever test loot/perception?