Runestaff vs Shield

[Nuc]

While I understand that there is a significant DS difference between the runestaff and shield, and that the runestaff allows you to parry bolt spells. From a mechanical advantage though, is there a difference between the runestaff parry and shield block? Or is there something else I'm missing?

I keep thinking that as a capped wizard everywhere I go I risk being disarmed while using the runestaff while the shield has 0 risk associated with it. Granted, the runestaff provides the larger defensive bonus, but at this point it doesn't make a huge difference since nothing swings hard enough to land an attack.

[Asrial]

Here's all the math if you want to poke at it... http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=43815

Short answer? Go shield.

Long answer? With the way GS mechanics are.. it doesn't matter whether you block/parry 50% of the time or not if you can't be touched when you fail (or get slaughtered).

[Kithor]

The primary (only?) benefit to using a runestaff for defense is that you don't have to train in any extra skills and can focus most of your TPs on magic skills.

Shield alone is comparable DS to a runstaff, dependent on your magic ranks, but most casters that I see use a shield also train in brawl.
Shield+brawl will have a higher DS than a runestaff wielder across the board (I think you need to hit something like 24x in magic skills for runstaff DS to beat it), plus the benefit of not dealing with Disarm, and if I'm reading krakiipedia right shield+brawl has a higher EBP rating as well.

[Anothi]

shield/brawl FTW. Enough said. There are way too many manuevers to lock you into RT hell as it is...why add disarm into the picture as well? Nothing is more aggravating to lose a high end item to the janitor because it was disarmed and out of your reach to pick up again due to death.

Anothi

[Fallen]

The ability to parry bolts is nice..until you realize your bolt DS will likely be out of reach of whatever you're hunting when you have a shield, making the matter moot. Also, a big advantage of using a shield is if you're stanced and prone, you can still mount a decent DS via a shield, wheras if you're stanced and prone with a runestaff, your DS suffers terribly. In guarded, they CAN be roughly comparable.

Another big advantage of shield is that their enchant adds directly to your DS, whereas having a high enchant runestaff becomes rather pointless. Not everyone can afford a high enchant shield, but in time, a 10x Medium/Tower becomes well within most player's price range (20-25 mill).

[Celephais]

I'm a huge advocate of the shield/open hand route. Just train one rank of shield and brawling (honestly I don't know if that's required, but I train it anyway) and you'll have enough DS not to worry, I use the extra TPs to train spells, because I don't have DS issues and would rather the offensive/utility uses.

Skill|PTPs|Offensive DS increase|PTP per DS
Wiz Spell|64|1.25|51.2
Shield Use|13|0.5|26
Brawling|14|0.2|70
Obviously if DS becomes and issue I'd train up shield use next, but I would not bother with brawling until post cap (or you want to use the brawling dex enhancive vambraces).

[Fallen]

If I wasn't such a DSaholic I would definitely consider nuking my brawling ranks, and dump the remaining TPs into spell training. In the end, the only nifty aspects of Runestaff training is it frees up TPs for other things, you can use magical wands and crud with no DS loss, and you can get a lot of nice enhancive bonuses with runestaves. Certainly not worthwhile to me.

[Celephais]

If I wasn't such a DSaholic I would definitely consider nuking my brawling ranks, and dump the remaining TPs into spell training.
I hear you there... my whole reason I went with wizard in the first place as my main was the concept of so much DS you never get hit, sadly they've lost the top spot as most survivable. But you have the benefit of your main offensive circle also being the best DS circle, wizards gain very little offensively from continued training in the wizard circle, so it's a harder choice as to which circle to train in (and in my case leaves plenty of room for DS growth in the wizard circle)

In the end, the only nifty aspects of Runestaff training is it frees up TPs for other things, you can use magical wands and crud with no DS loss
With only a single brawling rank I don't think twice about any DS lost by having something in my primary hand.

and you can get a lot of nice enhancive bonuses with runestaves. Certainly not worthwhile to me.
There are certainly more nice runestaffs than shields floating around... but getting that nice enhancive runestaff disarmed would suck, which isn't as big a concern for shield users. And a shield user has the potential to hold an enhancive weapon as well, if they're not worried about disarm.

[Fallen]

I hear you there... my whole reason I went with wizard in the first place as my main was the concept of so much DS you never get hit, sadly they've lost the top spot as most survivable. But you have the benefit of your main offensive circle also being the best DS circle, wizards gain very little offensively from continued training in the wizard circle, so it's a harder choice as to which circle to train in (and in my case leaves plenty of room for DS growth in the wizard circle)

I was going to comment on this, but didn't want it turning into something resembling a sorcerer bitch fest. Those with a profession circle and a major circle definitely benefit from heading towards 3x spell training Pre-cap, as they need to get the most out of two circles, instead of one. With Minor Elemenal and Minor Spiritual, a sorcerer need not bother. A bit of DS/TD to be gained, but no truly interesting spells which need to be powered via spell ranks.

Wizards are definitely at the forground of having to train up 2 seperate circles (500s/900s) to get the most out of their class. It is a shitty situation, and an awesome situation at the same time. Hopefully with the lore review, you will get even more nifty toys to play with in those circles.


With only a single brawling rank I don't think twice about any DS lost by having something in my primary hand. There are certainly more nice runestaffs than shields floating around... but getting that nice enhancive runestaff disarmed would suck, which isn't as big a concern for shield users. And a shield user has the potential to hold an enhancive weapon as well, if they're not worried about disarm.

I honestly don't worry so much about being disarmed. The problem for sissy stick users is they are basically FUCKED if they are disarmed. Their DS plummets, and they are killed. For a brawler, it just gives us RT. The DS loss from losing a weapon is neglegable. So while annoying, I usually walk around with 0 ranks in disarm while using a valuable +1 to spirit recovery weapon. Why? I just wait out my RT and get it back. Runestaffers have no such luxury.

That being said, how many nifty brawling enhancives have you seen? Not too many, I would imagine. Even the treasure system seems loathe to spit out decent ones.

[Asrial]

Just train one rank of shield and brawling (honestly I don't know if that's required, but I train it anyway)...They changed that quirk a long time ago. While 1 rank of shield/brawling is required to get your stats to factor into the mix, the impact they have is very minor. It's no longer the same as 'train 1 rank and get a huge amount of DS.'

For example...

STRENGTH BONUS: 30
DEXTERITY BONUS: 30
SHIELD USE: 1 rank
BRAWLING: 1 rank

TOWER SHIELD OFFENSIVE DS: 6 melee and 15 ranged
TOWER SHIELD DEFENSIVE DS: 12 melee and 31 ranged

EMPTY HAND OFFENSIVE DS: 3 melee
EMPTY HAND DEFENSIVE DS: 10 melee

However, with 0 ranks in shield, you still get the enchant (and +20 natural DS bonus) from a shield. You need 1 rank in brawling to get any DS from a weapon enchant.

It's also important to note, if you're doing 1 rank of brawling, that there's a bug in the system that increases ranged DS when it shouldn't...

If you have 0 ranks of brawling and an empty right hand you get...

0 ranged DS in offensive
10 ranged DS in advance
20 ranged DS in forward
30 ranged DS in neutral
40 ranged DS in guarded
50 ranged DS in defensive

If you have 1 rank of brawling and an empty right hand.. you get nothing no matter the stance. The bug has to do with holding something you aren't trained to use versus holding something you are trained to use.

[crb]

All my pures use runestaffs, I simply like the extra magical skills. More spells, and more powerful with them.

What about DS? Well, spell tanking through a plethora of scrolls plus 10x DB fixes that issue.

What about disarm? Can't beat em, join em! 60 ranks of CM = 5 ranks in disarm = they need to roll like a 120 to disarm me. Possible, but not likely.

In the end, I'm not happy unless my DS is high enough so that I can be prone, disarmed, in offensive, and still live. I have achieved that as is, with a runestaff, any more DS would just result in multiplying my existing 0% hit rate, which is of course, already 0.

Of course when an invasion rolls around and something swings at 800 or 900 I wish for more DS, but I can generate it. I don't wear nearly all the defensive spells I've access to for regular hunting. I can get my DS over a thousand if I know in advance I'll need it (and my TD to near 600).

[Celephais]

It's also important to note, if you're doing 1 rank of brawling, that there's a bug in the system that increases ranged DS when it shouldn't...

If you have 0 ranks of brawling and an empty right hand you get...

0 ranged DS in offensive
10 ranged DS in advance
20 ranged DS in forward
30 ranged DS in neutral
40 ranged DS in guarded
50 ranged DS in defensive

If you have 1 rank of brawling and an empty right hand.. you get nothing no matter the stance. The bug has to do with holding something you aren't trained to use versus holding something you are trained to use.
Wait so... should I train in the one rank or not? (I walk around w/ an empty right hand, no need for enchant bonus). And from the look of it, 1 rank of shield us is absolutely worth training in, 13 PTPs to activate str/dex ranks is worth it to me.

[Vimp]

On a tangent but...

They should expand the weapon bonding system to allow a wizard (or pure) to bond with their runestaff like a warrior can to their weapon.

Throw in some neat advantages per rank of bonding like a warrior gets to unlock, lets see for example....

The random chance to ricochet a bolt spell back at the attacker, a chance for minor one off CS/Bolt AS boost, Reduced cast time, random absorption from a deflected bolt spell that transfers a portion of the mana to the rune staff wielder.... The final step of course being the same as a warrior's - making the runestaff return to hand if disarmed. Solved!

There I go, day dreaming again...

[Celephais]

In the end, I'm not happy unless my DS is high enough so that I can be prone, disarmed, in offensive, and still live.
... you're aware that you just made the arguement for not bothering with runestaff at all. You don't need to hold a runestaff to train in extra magic skills.

[inso]

Plus, that's a LOT of points spent on 60 points of combat man for a sorc/wiz. For those tps you could train 1x shield and ~30 ranks of brawling. And still get exactly the same amount of magical skills.

[Trouble]

For my (currently inactive) empath and cleric (like 85 and 95) I did brawl+shield because of disarm and weaponfire in OTF. For my wizard (like 65) I did runestaff because of all the points I put into disarming traps.

[crb]

Plus, that's a LOT of points spent on 60 points of combat man for a sorc/wiz. For those tps you could train 1x shield and ~30 ranks of brawling. And still get exactly the same amount of magical skills.

CM also helps, you know, defending against other manuevers. And not being disarmed saves you from both RT and item/ds loss.

[crb]

... you're aware that you just made the arguement for not bothering with runestaff at all. You don't need to hold a runestaff to train in extra magic skills.

Ability to survive prone,disarmed,offensive is not infinite. Especially with dispelling critters about.

And my runestaff has offensive based enhancives.

And it costs me really nothing to carry it, since I'd train in the extra magical junk anyways.

But if you were saying that I could technically hunt barehanded. Yes, you would be correct.

[Celephais]

For my wizard (like 65) I did runestaff because of all the points I put into disarming traps.
... what? How are those correlated?

If you're low on training points so you're not overtrained in magical skills then shield/brawl will provide a good DS without having to worry about 2xing AS/MIU etc.

Human Wizard, lvl 68
Relevant stats/skills:
Strength (STR): 66 (13) ... 66 (13)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)

Shield Use.........................| 5 1
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Arcane Symbols.....................| 170 70
Magic Item Use.....................| 170 70
Spell Aiming.......................| 240 140
Harness Power......................| 170 70
Elemental Mana Control.............| 170 70
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Major Elemental....................| 69
Minor Elemental....................| 68
Wizard.............................| 64
645 magical ranks, approx 9.5x

Since it was a quick test I only had a hoarbeam runestaff at my disposal (but I believe it's +17, it has an enchanters mark on it), and I was using a 7x shield (not exactly unrealistic for anyone to obtain). At the time of testing I was moderately encumbered, didn't use signs, but had self cast and cleric spells on.

Standing guarded DS
Runestaff: 491
Shield/Open: 448

Prone offensive DS
Runestaff: 328
Shield/Open: 347

Prone offensive gem in other hand
Runestaff: 304
Shield/Gem: 345

I will gladly sacrifice the 43 DS in guarded stance that, as crb said, adds 0% to survivablilty for the 19 DS in offensive stance at the cost of 27 PTPs, and zero concern over disarm. It's also kind of nice to be able to pick up a box or gem or whatever and have the DS drop be negligable, losing 24 DS instead of 2 DS because I picked up a gem and got ambushed is a big deal to me.

[inso]

CM also helps, you know, defending against other manuevers. And not being disarmed saves you from both RT and item/ds loss.

The generic CM defense is extremely weak. The point still stands that your previous post is contradicted- you gain no magical skill ranks for using a runestaff (over 1x shield .3x brawl), since you have to train CM.

I don't even know where you're trying to go logically with the second statement. Brawl/shield doesn't have to worry about disarm at all. So even being disarmed on a 120 endroll is infinitely more often than you'd have to deal with the RT/DS loss.

[Celephais]

Ability to survive prone,disarmed,offensive is not infinite. Especially with dispelling critters about.
Disarmed isn't a state that shield/open users worry about, so that's a leg up there already, and more importantly, we don't have to worry about the RT caused by disarm.


And my runestaff has offensive based enhancives.
I agree that I see better runestaff enhancives than I've seen shield enhancives, they do exist though. It's a question of priorities of offensive vs defensive, a good offense is a good defense does work, but it's not foolproof.


And it costs me really nothing to carry it, since I'd train in the extra magical junk anyways.
It costs you using your CM points on disarm. If you used them on feign instead you'd have one less attack vector mitigated. Even with a good skill in disarm you will get put into RT over it on occasion, this does not happen to shield/open users. You can still train in that extra magical junk and carry a shield, you don't have to train in shield use.


But if you were saying that I could technically hunt barehanded. Yes, you would be correct.
There is no reason to hunt barehanded over a shield/open for classes that don't benefit from the extra open hand (infusion etc), if you're worried about the shield getting looted off your body you'd still see more than a 40 DS boost to carry a 4x shield over entirely barehanded, 55 w/ a 7x... and you're the one who said you were only worried about offensive prone disarmed DS.

[Fallen]

Basically, not everyone has access to a huge amount of outside spells. For those that do, they may not want to maintain such an extensive spell collection, be they rechargeables or infused scrolls. Don't get me wrong, I love infusion, but it IS time consuming to hunt down scrolls, and to infuse them. Charge Item is even more annoying, and is far more difficult to build a decent collection of spells. As others have mentioned, training in CM is an option, but it is also a lot of points, and has been pointed out, offers a pathetic amount of tertiary CMAN defense. It DOES provide general maneuver defense, but it is impossible to measure how much benefit it actually provides.

[Celephais]

Basically, not everyone has access to a huge amount of outside spells. For those that do, they may not want to maintain such an extensive spell collection, be they rechargeables or infused scrolls. Don't get me wrong, I love infusion, but it IS time consuming to hunt down scrolls, and to infuse them. Charge Item is even more annoying, and is far more difficult to build a decent collection of spells. As others have mentioned, training in CM is an option, but it is also a lot of points, and has been pointed out, offers a pathetic amount of tertiary CMAN defense. It DOES provide general maneuver defense, but it is impossible to measure how much benefit it actually provides.
Not sure what this is in relation to? If it has to do with the numbers I posted that have some cleric spells in there, I hunt perfectly fine self cast only, and same as when hunting with a cleric, only fear the occasional manuever attack.

CM, and PT are high on my priority list after I've caught wizard spells up to level, with actually training for DS via shield use/brawling a distant post-cap goal, except I don't plan on spending my CM points on disarm, feint and subdual strike are higher priority (subdual for bandit tasks)

[Fallen]

Not sure what this is in relation to? If it has to do with the numbers I posted that have some cleric spells in there, I hunt perfectly fine self cast only, and same as when hunting with a cleric, only fear the occasional manuever attack.

CM, and PT are high on my priority list after I've caught wizard spells up to level, with actually training for DS via shield use/brawling a distant post-cap goal, except I don't plan on spending my CM points on disarm, feint and subdual strike are higher priority (subdual for bandit tasks)


I know I should have quoted Virilneus. Basically, he was making the argument that he CAN survive being stanced with a runestaff BECAUSE of his spell tanking. Not everyone is able, or willing to spell tank to the extent he does.

[Asha]

Thank God for creature 720.

[Nuc]

Thanks for the huge response. Answered my question.

[crb]

Basically, not everyone has access to a huge amount of outside spells. For those that do, they may not want to maintain such an extensive spell collection, be they rechargeables or infused scrolls. Don't get me wrong, I love infusion, but it IS time consuming to hunt down scrolls, and to infuse them. Charge Item is even more annoying, and is far more difficult to build a decent collection of spells. As others have mentioned, training in CM is an option, but it is also a lot of points, and has been pointed out, offers a pathetic amount of tertiary CMAN defense. It DOES provide general maneuver defense, but it is impossible to measure how much benefit it actually provides.

It is certainly hard to measure.

You know what happened before I started training in CM? Every once in awihle a construct would crush my head. Griffins would headswat me and put me into big time RT, griffens would dive and carry me off to drop me on my head.

You know what happens now? None of the above. Constructs miss, griffins miss, griffins miss some more. And all the little knockdown manuevers are weaker too.

I also enjoy the offensive use of cman disarm. It is fun.

You don't need 60 ranks of CM to save yourself from disarm. My empath only has 24 ranks, which is a huge benefit, and I plateau'd at 40 ranks for a few years with no problems. 60 ranks was just gravy, a post cap indulgence. You know what I would do if I trained in dodge & shield? Still train in CM.

In anycase, I've not died while hunting (outside of user error, like DCing myself) since, I think 2006, maybe 2005, hard to remember. gotta be doing something right.

[droit]

He's got a point. CM's critter maneuver defense is one of it's best qualities.

[Fallen]

I've always had a love/hate relationship with CM training. I often put my points into it because I am getting back PTP's, but it is always the first thing I nuke if I want a pile of TP's to put towards something else. I can't say for certain I ever noticed the Maneuver defense benefits. I solved that problem with padding, and that is the route I would recommend to any pure with the means of gaining it.

[Asrial]

Wait so... should I train in the one rank or not?It comes down to which kind of DS do you want.. the melee DS or the ranged DS?

Basically the bug is with the STANCE/2 part of the parry DS formula. It's supposed to be taken out against a ranged attack, and it is if you have an item in your hand that you're trained to use.

However, if you aren't trained for that item.. it's not taken out.

[Iamnaeth]

Is this below for real? Or is it more a function of having a 7x shield versus a 3.7x runestaff? Wouldn't a better test be 0x shield vs 0x runestaff or equal enchant ones?


... what? How are those correlated?

If you're low on training points so you're not overtrained in magical skills then shield/brawl will provide a good DS without having to worry about 2xing AS/MIU etc.

Human Wizard, lvl 68
Relevant stats/skills:
Strength (STR): 66 (13) ... 66 (13)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)

Shield Use.........................| 5 1
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Arcane Symbols.....................| 170 70
Magic Item Use.....................| 170 70
Spell Aiming.......................| 240 140
Harness Power......................| 170 70
Elemental Mana Control.............| 170 70
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Major Elemental....................| 69
Minor Elemental....................| 68
Wizard.............................| 64
645 magical ranks, approx 9.5x

Since it was a quick test I only had a hoarbeam runestaff at my disposal (but I believe it's +17, it has an enchanters mark on it), and I was using a 7x shield (not exactly unrealistic for anyone to obtain). At the time of testing I was moderately encumbered, didn't use signs, but had self cast and cleric spells on.

Standing guarded DS
Runestaff: 491
Shield/Open: 448

Prone offensive DS
Runestaff: 328
Shield/Open: 347

Prone offensive gem in other hand
Runestaff: 304
Shield/Gem: 345

I will gladly sacrifice the 43 DS in guarded stance that, as crb said, adds 0% to survivablilty for the 19 DS in offensive stance at the cost of 27 PTPs, and zero concern over disarm. It's also kind of nice to be able to pick up a box or gem or whatever and have the DS drop be negligable, losing 24 DS instead of 2 DS because I picked up a gem and got ambushed is a big deal to me.

[Celephais]

Is this below for real? Or is it more a function of having a 7x shield versus a 3.7x runestaff? Wouldn't a better test be 0x shield vs 0x runestaff or equal enchant ones?
Yes, those numbers are accurate, a better test would have been a 4x shield vs a 4x runestaff, or a 7x shield vs a 7x runestaff, but realistically the numbers I gave are likely a pretty good cross-section of what people would bother carrying.

It's not very hard for a wizard to make their own 7x shield or staff... but the return on investment for making a 7x staff is not worth it, you won't get 15 extra DS from going from 4x-7x with a runestaff, but you will with a shield.

If someone wants to lend me a runestaff to test with I'll gladly put those numbers up there. Oh, to further cloud things, that was with a medium shield.

Fact remains that I cannot be disarmed, I've put negligible training into my 'held' defense, I can carry loot/wands, and I produce better DS than I would with a runestaff in offensive stance (if I was using a +17 shield, which no one would, I'd still have a DS 1 higher).