Help me rebuild this bard

[Reawing]

Name: XXXXX Race: Elf Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 1616174 Level: 38
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 79 (14) ... 79 (14)
Constitution (CON): 89 (19) ... 89 (19)
Dexterity (DEX): 74 (17) ... 74 (17)
Agility (AGI): 81 (30) ... 81 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 93 (6) ... 93 (6)
Aura (AUR): 74 (17) ... 74 (17)
Logic (LOG): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Intuition (INT): 70 (10) ... 70 (10)
Wisdom (WIS): 84 (17) ... 84 (17)
Influence (INF): 72 (21) ... 72 (21)
Mana: 125 Silver: 1959

I just bought this bard and I am wondering what would be a standard skill allocation for a sword and board Bard model.

I was thinking of stopping armor use at 35 for Brig, 2xing in OHE, 2xing in Shield Use, 1x in HP...other than that, I have very little experience in fighting with weapons. I could use some help allocating the rest or switching stuff around. Up until now I have been strictly useing runestaves so this is a big change for me.

Thanks,
Reawing

[Reawing]

bump, please help

[Lumi]

Core build for a sword and board bard:

2x OHE
1x Shield
1x Armor
1x CM
1x PF
.75x Dodging
1x Harness Power
1x Spells

The rest is just a matter of what you want to do. I like perception. You almost certainly want 1x lores and either ambush or MoC.

Telepathy lore increases your renewal time and boosts the AS bonus of 1007, but you're already level 38, so I'd probably go with Air lore as your priority (1012 is awesomesauce). You could grab enough MoC for doublestrike if you want to go that route (30 ranks), and it'll also help with FoF.

I personal love Perception, and try to 1x it with all my characters (more with my archers, obviously).

I'd try to pick up 24 ranks of MMC, and some AS/MIU as well, depends on how much you use 1013, scrolls, and imbeds, respectively.

You can wait another few levels before the next armor jump, or you can double train an extra ten ranks (up to 50) for AsG 15, which is the sweet spot for bards. At your level, if you have a nice set of brig, though, you can probably save the points, it's your call.

[Reawing]

Core build for a sword and board bard:

2x OHE
1x Shield
1x Armor
1x CM
1x PF
.75x Dodging
1x Harness Power
1x Spells

The rest is just a matter of what you want to do. I like perception. You almost certainly want 1x lores and either ambush or MoC.

Telepathy lore increases your renewal time and boosts the AS bonus of 1007, but you're already level 38, so I'd probably go with Air lore as your priority (1012 is awesomesauce). You could grab enough MoC for doublestrike if you want to go that route (30 ranks), and it'll also help with FoF.

I personal love Perception, and try to 1x it with all my characters (more with my archers, obviously).

I'd try to pick up 24 ranks of MMC, and some AS/MIU as well, depends on how much you use 1013, scrolls, and imbeds, respectively.

You can wait another few levels before the next armor jump, or you can double train an extra ten ranks (up to 50) for AsG 15, which is the sweet spot for bards. At your level, if you have a nice set of brig, though, you can probably save the points, it's your call.

Thanks. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

-Reawing

[Lumi]

np, dood. Hope it helps :)

[Reawing]

np, dood. Hope it helps :)

Ok, here is my setup so far. Let me know if I have any major flaws. Please make any suggestions.

Level 38 Elf Bard

Armor Use: 35 ranks (keeping it at Brig for now)
Shield Use: 38 ranks
Edged Weapons: 76 ranks
MoC: 30 ranks (for Mstrike as suggested)
PF: 38 ranks
Dodging: 29 ranks (.75x in it)
HP: 38 ranks
MMC: 24 ranks (Why only 24? I know with EMC and SMC its for sharing, but does anyone share Mental Mana?)
Elem Lore - Air: 38 ranks
Perception: 38 ranks
Climbing: 19 ranks
Swimming: 19 ranks
400's: 14 ranks
1000's: 24 ranks (Planning to get 1025 next)

So basically, I have 13 PTPs left and am about 50 percent of the way to 39. Any suggestions on how to fine tune this for use with a greatshield, falchion and brig? How much MIU/AS do I need to be a viable magic user and do I need to sacrifice something now to get it sooner or can it wait like the armor for me to get some of the points that used to be tied up in MMC and MoC?

-Reawing

[Lumi]

Looks pretty good! A few comments:


MMC: 24 ranks (Why only 24? I know with EMC and SMC its for sharing, but does anyone share Mental Mana?)

Other bards, and empaths. Also, it factors into the mana returns you get using 1013 (how much mana you actually recover when sucking it out of a critter or magic item). Blue and crystal wands are like little bard batteries, you should save any you find (have them duped if you can), and if you're running low on mana, just grab one and Unravel it.


Climbing: 19 ranks
Swimming: 19 ranks

Man, I still don't get this at all. Why is everyone so dead set on training so much C/S right out of the gate? o.O

Unless you have an actual use for it right now, I'd hold off on training any more Climbing or Swimming, and probably even untrain a few ranks. There's nothing you actually need it for yet, that I can think of anyway.


400's: 14 ranks
1000's: 24 ranks (Planning to get 1025 next)


Very good breakdown of spells. 1025 might be a bit of a mana hog at 39, but you can give it a go and see if you feel it's worth it.


Any suggestions on how to fine tune this for use with a greatshield, falchion and brig?

Are you in any society? Which CMANs do you have? A greatshield will lend itself well to a shield-based maneuver, but you have lullaby to do basically the same thing (stance, disable, prone), and there's no CML roll for 1005. There are lots of options, you should browse the list of CMANs and see what interests you.


How much MIU/AS do I need to be a viable magic user and do I need to sacrifice something now to get it sooner or can it wait like the armor for me to get some of the points that used to be tied up in MMC and MoC?

-Reawing

AS/MIU is very subjective. I have 24 ranks of AS, which lets me invoke anything I'll find on a scroll as long as I'm not encumbered. I have 16 MIU ranks because I wanted to be able to use invis amulets once upon a time, and I've never tried to access anything higher from an imbed. I would probably put slightly more emphasis on scrolls than imbeds, but you don't need to skimp on any core training to pick up either, really.

Have you tested him in the field yet? How does he play/hunt/feel? Are you happy with the preliminary results?

[Reawing]

Looks pretty good! A few comments:



Other bards, and empaths. Also, it factors into the mana returns you get using 1013 (how much mana you actually recover when sucking it out of a critter or magic item). Blue and crystal wands are like little bard batteries, you should save any you find (have them duped if you can), and if you're running low on mana, just grab one and Unravel it.



Man, I still don't get this at all. Why is everyone so dead set on training so much C/S right out of the gate? o.O

Unless you have an actual use for it right now, I'd hold off on training any more Climbing or Swimming, and probably even untrain a few ranks. There's nothing you actually need it for yet, that I can think of anyway.



Very good breakdown of spells. 1025 might be a bit of a mana hog at 39, but you can give it a go and see if you feel it's worth it.



Are you in any society? Which CMANs do you have? A greatshield will lend itself well to a shield-based maneuver, but you have lullaby to do basically the same thing (stance, disable, prone), and there's no CML roll for 1005. There are lots of options, you should browse the list of CMANs and see what interests you.



AS/MIU is very subjective. I have 24 ranks of AS, which lets me invoke anything I'll find on a scroll as long as I'm not encumbered. I have 16 MIU ranks because I wanted to be able to use invis amulets once upon a time, and I've never tried to access anything higher from an imbed. I would probably put slightly more emphasis on scrolls than imbeds, but you don't need to skimp on any core training to pick up either, really.

Have you tested him in the field yet? How does he play/hunt/feel? Are you happy with the preliminary results?

I haven't battle tested him yet because I haven't used the fixskills. Just been learning to loresing and purify gems. He is a CoL master if that makes a difference. I will drop climb to 15 and swim to 10 and start adding some AS/MIU. (6 ranks of AS so far and I will get a bunch more as level 38 progresses. I think the 50 armor ranks will be a secondary goal for after I get enough AS/MIU and also the obligatory 30 ranks of climbing/swimming that I feel are neccesary for post 50-hunting... But maybe that's just the sorcie in me who carries too much stuff. I expect around level 50 to have my core training plan in place, including 30/30 in climb/swim, 50 ranks in armor and 24 ranks of AS. We'll see how much MIU I can stuff in, but I like the goal of 16.

As for Cmans, I literally have never used them. If 1005 makes Shield based maneuvers useless, what else would seriously benefit my bard in combat?

-Reawing

[Reawing]

How about spin attack as a viable Cman for the bard? Does that sound reasonable?

-Reawing

[Lumi]

How about spin attack as a viable Cman for the bard? Does that sound reasonable?

-Reawing

I have never liked sattack. The returns for the cost just don't look good to me.

Let's look at the list!

Combat Movement (cmovement) - meh, 10 DS is inferior to other options, imo.
Combat Focus (focus) - 10 TD, on the other hand, can be worthwhile.
Combat Mastery (cmastery) - yawn, stance dancing is a very viable tactic
Dirtkick (dirtkick) - nice dark horse here, can be used from defensive!
Shield Bash (sbash) - competes with 1005, but isn't a bad maneuver, especially with larger shields and shield use training
Disarm Weapon (disarm) - decent maneuver, but we have 1002 (HIGHLY superior); note, however, that if you're using a sonic weapon, you're already immune to disarm :D
Sweep (sweep) - another respectable choice that competes with 1005
Feint (feint) - a maneuver that gives RT and forces stance? Yes, please :)
Hamstring (hamstring) - another respectable choice that works with flares :D
Precision (precision) - this is a very interesting maneuver. Being able to control your crit type can be VERY useful, depending upon what you're hunting
Garrote (garrote) - fun, but not particularly useful for a bard, imo
Cheapshots (cheapshots) - same comment as garotte
Subdual Strike (sstrike) - I honestly don't know much about this maneuver, but I'm pretty sure it's largely useless for bards
Spin Attack (sattack) - the effects are not worth the costs, imo.

I left off the ones that require non-OHE weapon types (Trip, Charge, Multi-fire). Also, keep in mind that learning a CMAN helps defend against it, too, but I don't think level 38 is really the point at which you need to worry about defensive CMAN training.

If it were my bard, I'd be looking at feint, sbash, sweep, hamstring, dirtkick, or Focus if you want to go defensive.

[Reawing]

I have never liked sattack. The returns for the cost just don't look good to me.

Let's look at the list!

Combat Movement (cmovement) - meh, 10 DS is inferior to other options, imo.
Combat Focus (focus) - 10 TD, on the other hand, can be worthwhile.
Combat Mastery (cmastery) - yawn, stance dancing is a very viable tactic
Dirtkick (dirtkick) - nice dark horse here, can be used from defensive!
Shield Bash (sbash) - competes with 1005, but isn't a bad maneuver, especially with larger shields and shield use training
Disarm Weapon (disarm) - decent maneuver, but we have 1002 (HIGHLY superior); note, however, that if you're using a sonic weapon, you're already immune to disarm :D
Sweep (sweep) - another respectable choice that competes with 1005
Feint (feint) - a maneuver that gives RT and forces stance? Yes, please :)
Hamstring (hamstring) - another respectable choice that works with flares :D
Precision (precision) - this is a very interesting maneuver. Being able to control your crit type can be VERY useful, depending upon what you're hunting
Garrote (garrote) - fun, but not particularly useful for a bard, imo
Cheapshots (cheapshots) - same comment as garotte
Subdual Strike (sstrike) - I honestly don't know much about this maneuver, but I'm pretty sure it's largely useless for bards
Spin Attack (sattack) - the effects are not worth the costs, imo.

I left off the ones that require non-OHE weapon types (Trip, Charge, Multi-fire). Also, keep in mind that learning a CMAN helps defend against it, too, but I don't think level 38 is really the point at which you need to worry about defensive CMAN training.

If it were my bard, I'd be looking at feint, sbash, sweep, hamstring, dirtkick, or Focus if you want to go defensive.

Thanks for the info on that. Feint does sound good. Dirtkick is amusing but, eh. As you noted, feint causes RT and changes their stance. Sounds like a good choice. Thank you so much. I hope this bard ends up being awesome.

-Reawing

[Reawing]

Is there a significant benefit to going with air lore over manipulation lore?

-Reawing

[Monotonous]

Is there a significant benefit to going with air lore over manipulation lore?

-Reawing
Yes, basically the entire point of being a weapon-swinging bard =D




From Krakiipedia http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Elemental_Lore,_Air

* Stunning Shout (1008)

Every three (3) ranks of EL:Air lore will increase the damage inflicted by a successful result by one (1) additional Hit Point.

* Sonic Equipment Songs, three of them

For all three of the "Sonic Equipment Songs" (Shield, Weapon, and Armor), each rank of EL:Air will increase their DUrability (used in comparing items when they clash in combat, to determine which--if any--will be subject to being broken) by the standard amount for skills progression: +5/rank for ten ranks, then +4/rank for ten ranks, +3/rank for ten ranks, +2/rank for ten ranks, and finally by +1/rank for all additional ranks. This is usually called the "5/4/3/2/1 rank progression", and is followed for all skills available through the Character Manager except for Spell Research.

* Sonic Shield Song (1009)

At twenty (20) ranks of EL:Air skill, the effective size--for purposes of calculating hindrance to Dodge--of a Bard's Sonic Shield is reduced by one (1) step, so a Tower sized Sonic Shield would only hinder the Bard to the extent that a normal Large shield would.
At fifty (50) ranks of EL:Air skill, the effective size is reduced by one (1) more (a total of -2 size reduction), so a Tower sized Sonic Shield would hinder as a normal Medium shield.
At one hundred (100) ranks of EL:Air skill, the effective size is further reduced by one (1) (a total of -3 size reduction), so a Tower sized Sonic Shield would hinder the Bard's Dodge as though it were a normal Small shield.

* Sonic Weapon Song (1012)

Training in EL:Air will first give, and then increase, the possibility of a Bard's chosen Sonic Weapon flaring a second time. Sonic Weapon Song already has the best inherent flares in the game: they have the possibility of flaring on consecutive swings, and that is very uncommon outside of ridiculously rare/expensive items.
The second flare that Sonic Weapon Song has is independent of the first flare, and the two flares have different messaging; the second flare is indicated by "With a loud snap" (and then additional text which I do not recall). Since this flare is independent, it is possible to have a swing which generates no flare, one (normal) flare, one (second) flare, or two (one each normal and second) flares. While this is superficially similar to the Paladin spell which also confers second flares, the Paladins can only get their second flare on a swing which generates the primary flare.
Both flares draw from the same critical hit chart, so it is entirely possible to get only minor hits (add 5 hit points of damage) for both... or to get major hits (add 40-75 hit points of damage, break/sever limbs, instant death) for both. (If the primary flare kills, of course, the second never gets a chance to activate.)

* Sonic Armor Song (1014)

Apart from the increases in DUrability mentioned above, training in EL:Air does nothing for Sonic Armor Song.

* Song of Tonis (1035)

This Song normally provides some ranks of Dodge to the Bard's group while it is active; with additional training in EL:Air these ranks are increased. The rank progression does not follow one of the normal Lore "seed" patterns. One (1) additional rank of Dodge is conferred at one (1) rank of EL:Air; a maximum of twenty (20) additional ranks of Dodge are conferred at ninety six (96) ranks of EL:Air.
At thirty (30) ranks of EL:Air, Song of Tonis gives an additional one (1) second of RoundTime reduction to the Bard's party (-1s is inherent in the spell effect; a total of -2s at this skill level).
At seventy five (75) ranks of EL:Air, Song of Tonis gives still another one (1) second (a total of -2s from this skill and -1s from the spell, for -3s total) reduction.

[Monotonous]

Oh, except that Krakiipedia article is wrong about Sonic Armor:

Training in Elemental Lore, Air will boost the elemental damage resistance provided by the armor.


Basically the benefits of Air lore for weapon-swinging bards is immense. It provides you with an incredible weapon, more haste for song 1035, and a bunch of other stuff.

[Lumi]

What Monotonous said. Air lore for bards is probably the single best instance of lore implementation in the game. We get SO much out of it.

Let me put it this way. I'm a pure bard, and I'm 1x Air lore ;)

Manipulation lore is primarily the caster-bard lore. Improves 1002 and 1030 for combat purposes. It also improves 1004, which is utility and equally beneficial to all types of bards, really.

But as a weapon swinger, I'd say manipulation lore shouldn't even be a consideration, except to maybe get 15 ranks once you learn 1030 so you can focus it on a single target (a nice option to have for anyone, caster or swinger). The benefits from Air are the most synergistic with weapon swinging, in my opinion.

Double sonic flares, better haste, better elemental armor resistance, reduced shield size penalties, extra dodging (a lot of people overlook this aspect of 1035 - I get 40 ranks of Dodging from my Tonis!)...it's delicious :)

[The Dark One]

feint is godly for a bard. I donno how I lived without it leveling in vruuls. So much easier now

[Emislity]

I too am a pure bard. I think I've spoiled myself being a pure bard, because I tried the sword/board and I couldn't do it. It broke my heart when I couldn't cast anymore. As for air lore, I too am 1x in air lore, it just seems to make sense. I would however have to disagree with your distaste in manipulation if you're a sword/board because as a bard, you significantly want to be able to successfully purify gems. The more manip you have, the better purifying you'll do. Why else would you want to be a bard, if you also cannot purify your own gems to the max? If you wanted just sword/board and no manipulation you could merely play a rogue or warrior, paladin even and get the same results you get from a bard with no manipulation.