BBC cracks me up when it comes to guns. [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Asha

10-13-2009, 10:38 AM

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 10:57 AM

Yea, yeah. You Yanks get just as excited about pretty much everything else in the known universe.
''Ohhhhhh the Brits!! They are so unaccustomed to people firing at eachother in the street.''
We try to have our guns in check so it's out of the ordinary over here for it to happen. Sucks to be you to be such old hands at it.

It was our guns (and a few French guns and their friendly neighbors in Spain) in check that kicked your ass out of north America if I remember correctly. We're not even zombies and it would take less than 30 minutes to clear street by street the UK. :P

Anyways that shit is retarded. I also personally watch the BBC news channel here and several BBC sitcoms. Funny as shit and the news is pretty straight forward. Just funny how almost every gun instance is sensationalized daily.

Warriorbird

10-13-2009, 11:49 AM

Many English residents like to forget about the country portions of their nation.

Reference Hot Fuzz.

:D

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 11:54 AM

Winner winner chicken dinner!

4a6c1

10-13-2009, 11:58 AM

I dont think I can get into this debate about Brits on Guns being both Catholic and Irish.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 12:20 PM

I lived in the country for 18 years and the only "ordnance" I ever saw was an air-rifle. Sorry, we're not used to having bar-brawls ended by retards pulling out guns. So yeah, it is pretty sensational to us. I actually feel sorry for you if you consider it the "norm".

Nieninque

10-13-2009, 12:21 PM

Many English residents like to forget about the country portions of their nation.

Reference Hot Fuzz.

:D

Best documentary ever.

Nieninque

10-13-2009, 12:22 PM

I dont think I can get into this debate about Brits on Guns being both Catholic and Irish.

The catholics in Ireland didnt consider themselves Brits.

ElvenFury

10-13-2009, 12:37 PM

Having a reasonable level of firearms dispersed through society has its benefits. I think it keeps things Darwinian. For instance, every time I hear a story about some moron blowing his nuts off while trying to store his piece under his waistband I get a warm fuzzy feeling.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 12:40 PM

I don't think there's anything Darwinian about having your head blown off in a crossfire at a fucking bar.

4a6c1

10-13-2009, 12:53 PM

The catholics in Ireland didnt consider themselves Brits.

You're right, they dont. But they were armed, and dangerous. I always figured Brits got their modern fear of guns from that issue, since it is closest to home. Not that England is entirely innocent nor are the opinions entirely biased.

When was it last possible in England for a middle class, or lower class individual to carry an armed weapon for their own protection?

Gelston

10-13-2009, 01:06 PM

This isn't the norm. Guns aren't everywhere. They are around and this does occur, and there are shootings everyday, somewhere. As an individual you aren't likely to see it that often, if ever.

Tisket

10-13-2009, 01:12 PM

This isn't the norm. Guns aren't everywhere.

I disagree. I think all of us would be shocked if we knew just how many guns there were within any given square mile in the U.S.

Nieninque

10-13-2009, 01:15 PM

You're right, they dont. But they were armed, and dangerous. I always figured Brits got their modern fear of guns from that issue, since it is closest to home. Not that England is entirely innocent nor are the opinions entirely biased.

When was it last possible in England for a middle class, or lower class individual to carry an armed weapon for their own protection?

It's not a fear of guns, moreso a realisation that allowing fucktards to carry guns is a recipe for disaster.

Gelston

10-13-2009, 01:19 PM

I disagree. I think all of us would be shocked if we knew just how many guns there were within any given square mile in the U.S.

You can disagree all you want. There are a lot, but they aren't everywhere. And yes, I know law enforcement has them. That is why huge shootings that kill lots of people like in that mall or at schools and colleges can occur without people returning fire.

ElvenFury

10-13-2009, 01:21 PM

I disagree. I think all of us would be shocked if we knew just how many guns there were within any given square mile in the U.S.

My Uncle in SC is a gun nut. A bunch of us went down to visit him a few years ago and we all got the warning beforehand that if we found any guns laying around (which we would), that we should assume they are loaded with the safety off.

Sure enough, in the guest room/office that me and my cousin slept in we found three hand guns. There was a revolver hanging on a bedpost (stored in an old west style gun holster/belt), a beastly glock in the night stand, and a smaller glock next to keyboard (on one of those retracting keyboard trays) in the computer desk. It was an interesting weekend.

So yeah, there's a lot of guns out there, but I think they tend to be concentrated in certain areas.

Tisket

10-13-2009, 01:23 PM

You can disagree all you want. There are a lot, but they aren't everywhere. And yes, I know law enforcement has them. That is why huge shootings that kill lots of people like in that mall or at schools and colleges can occur without people returning fire.

You believe this because you don't see people walking around with guns on their hips or waving shotguns in the air? Logical...

Tisket

10-13-2009, 01:30 PM

That is why huge shootings that kill lots of people like in that mall or at schools and colleges can occur without people returning fire.

You don't see people return fire because there are laws governing carrying firearms around in public. It's illogical to assume this means people don't actually own guns though. I and my husband own multiple firearms that never leave our property.

Lester the Molester

10-13-2009, 01:36 PM

I and my husband own multiple firearms that never leave our property.

There goes 6 weeks worth of planning. :-(

Tisket

10-13-2009, 01:37 PM

Go away Neff

Suppa Hobbit Mage

10-13-2009, 01:42 PM

I've got a dozen or so firearms in my house that only come out for target shooting maybe once a year (usually Christmas, because Christmas and guns just go together).

My father literally has an 18 x 18 room of wall to wall rifles, ammunition, hunting gear, etc. And that's just at his home. It is a very secure room though. He's collected guns for his whole life, and is always adding to his collection. I'd guess he's got over a thousand, but he is also a licensed firearms dealer and owns a pawn shop.

Gelston

10-13-2009, 01:43 PM

You don't see people return fire because there are laws governing carrying firearms around in public. It's illogical to assume this means people don't actually own guns though. I and my husband own multiple firearms that never leave our property.

I never said lots of people don't OWN guns. Hell, I own guns. I mean to say when you go to a bar, or a mall, or down the street, there aren't people all over the place packing.

Tisket

10-13-2009, 01:47 PM

I never said lots of people don't OWN guns. Hell, I own guns. I mean to say when you go to a bar, or a mall, or down the street, there aren't people all over the place packing.

Ah okay, I misunderstood your posts then. My bad.

ElvenFury

10-13-2009, 01:57 PM

Name that movie?

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/3/39/TremorsWOG2.jpg/600px-TremorsWOG2.jpg

Gelston

10-13-2009, 01:58 PM

Tremors!

I want that collection :(

Celephais

10-13-2009, 02:03 PM

Tremors always made me want to own an elephant gun.

I remember playing tabletop "Call of Cthulhu" and that was the first thing I did, buy an elephant gun. Which turned out to be a huge advantage in the game, fucking murdered me some Gugs.

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Lol tremors that guy was awesome.

I do carry on my strong side hip and if an idiotic gun fight went down like it did in that video especially from that angle they would have all eaten .357 sig auto rounds.

I'm not playing around when it comes to stupid shit like that. When I'm not carrying the Sig I'm carrying a 3" gravity knife for dark nights. I don't give a fuck what the brits think this is America and mostly because we kicked your fucking ass out of it.

So stfu and have a great day. Hope you don't get raped or robbed or the highly unlikely gun fight since you're a bunch of pussies over there. Unless you're Special Air Service or any other respectable bunch. Hell one of my best friends is a highlander sniper. Otherwise again please stfu.

*I don't mean to imply that everyone is a pussy over the pond as I know that's not true. Was just a comment in angst. <3 most of you.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 02:10 PM

Lol tremors that guy was awesome.

I do carry on my strong side hip and if an idiotic gun fight went down like it did in that video especially from that angle they would have all eaten .357 sig auto rounds.

Nice to know you're part of the problem, and not the solution.

Hope you don't get raped or robbed or the highly unlikely gun fight since you're a bunch of pussies over there.

I'd call you more of a pussy for having to resort to weapons. Take away your little penis extension and I'm sure you're a fucking walkover.

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 02:14 PM

Yeah I'm a walkover. Have at me anytime. USMC taught me more than any fucking basement or pub you've been in.

And I'm proud to be a responsible concealed carry and owner of multiple weapons. This is America not the the UK. Enjoy your air pistols.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 02:16 PM

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 02:22 PM

After reading some of your hilarious antics, you are the last person I'd call responsible. Responsible people don't get fucking wasted all the time, land themselves in fight after fight, lose their job and their family. Fucking losers do that.

But sure, when I'm you're way, I'm game. Though to even the odds, you know you being a cripple and all, what arm should I tie behind my back?

First get out of the basement and grab some grammar lessons. Secondly I'd doubt that I would even need a single arm considering you're a pasty ass limey that dwells in a basement. A foot or leg would be enough.

Do some research on L.I.N.E.

But when we're done let's go fishing. Our shit tastes a lot better than cod or haddock over here.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 02:23 PM

Deal.

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 02:24 PM

Celephais

10-13-2009, 02:53 PM

There is way too much internet badassness in this thread for me... I'm getting the F out of here.

Gelston

10-13-2009, 03:55 PM

God created man, Smith & Wesson made them equal.

Warriorbird

10-13-2009, 04:36 PM

More of this kind of Brit.

http://www.moviereviewblog.net/wp-images/hot-fuzz-angel.jpg

Methais

10-13-2009, 04:42 PM

I'd call you more of a pussy for having to resort to weapons. Take away your little penis extension and I'm sure you're a fucking walkover.

Says the person who says he has no right to kill someone that's trying to murder him.

Warriorbird

10-13-2009, 04:44 PM

If you don't use a weapon... how are you using the advantages of being human?

You're devolving.

Methais

10-13-2009, 04:46 PM

If you don't use a weapon... how are you using the advantages of being human?

You're devolving.

http://www.silviacattori.net/IMG/jpg/Les_enfants_victimes.texte.jpg

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 05:06 PM

God created man, Smith & Wesson made them equal.

Or Sig Sauer but who's counting.

Good quote.

P.s. Strayrogue pain is weakness leaving the body. You know when you get sore walking up the stairs from the basement. Hang in there pal you're getting stronger everyday and don't even realize it.

StrayRogue

10-13-2009, 05:40 PM

Wow, the old "leave the basement" thing. How clever and original are you. The apartment I live in doesn't even have a basement. Nor do I spend all day complaining about how fucked up my life is on a message board.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

10-13-2009, 05:46 PM

My basement is my "man cave". Big screen, lazyboy, couch, home gym, eliptical, shitter, kegorator. If I move a microwave down there I could live there for a month and not see the top of the stairs...

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 05:48 PM

If I had a basement (not oldschool style all dainty and hand chosen rock foundation) it would be a man cave.

However much SR likes to deny we know he lives in a basement attempting to write articles for DnD.

Life goes on. To each their own.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

10-13-2009, 05:51 PM

My experience with basements in the UK were they were dank and scary. But I was traveling and staying in a cheap ass hotel. I'm sure that was just my experience and not the whole country though.

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 05:52 PM

Nah pretty sure it's par for course over there. Just like Strayrogue's teeth. Dank and scary.

Methais

10-13-2009, 05:53 PM

My experience with basements in the UK were they were dank and scary. But I was traveling and staying in a cheap ass hotel. I'm sure that was just my experience and not the whole country though.

What was the safe word?

Sean of the Thread

10-13-2009, 05:53 PM

BUBBLES

Asha

10-14-2009, 04:07 AM

SHM is pretty much right. All basements over here are terrifying, damp and dark.
Although the description of his has inspired me to make my apartment into a cave of slack!!

Sweets

10-14-2009, 07:44 AM

I wish I could draw so I could make a caricature of Sean and sell it on a t-shirt as a stereotypical "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Several of his observations made me laugh out loud and I don't think they were suppose to.
I want to see greater gun control. I get nervous hearing that so many people south of us carry guns. Especially all the Seans. That's just tradegy waiting to happen. No one got hurt in the gun fire but if Sean was there, he proclaims people would have. Ick.
And before you go off on your "we kicked you mf's out" Sean, I'm Canadian. War of 1812. We won. You couldn't advance into Canada so shut the fuck up.

PS <3

Asha

10-14-2009, 07:54 AM

Gelston

10-14-2009, 07:58 AM

And before you go off on your "we kicked you mf's out" Sean, I'm Canadian. War of 1812. We won. You couldn't advance into Canada so shut the fuck up.

PS <3

Sorry you guys decided to continue to serve under the British yoke. And no, you didn't win, we got what we wanted out of the war, Brits stopped impressing American's into Naval service to fight the French. Operation Market Garden was a failure, doesn't mean we were defeated by the Scandinavians(You know, the Canadians of Europe).

http://media.cellfish.com/public/3/6/0/171360/420.jpg

ps. <3

Sweets

10-14-2009, 07:59 AM

It's so retarded to bring up the revolutionary war and how the brits were beaten (quite rightly, according to Mel Gibson and he's the man) when all we're saying is too many guns allowed on the street is dangerous and shocking.
In fact, it kinda sums up the mentality of the nation who strives to keep them there, so I didn't bother to argue.

This. I can't stand that argument. Especially when he first said 'out of North America'. Canada is an independant nation under the Sovereignty of England. Canada is North American. Here I go splitting hairs again though.

No matter how badass people think carrying guns is or how safe they think it makes their family, I can't get behind it. Why do you need a gun in your house if guns weren't a problem.

Chicken, egg.....egg, chicken....and all that.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 08:01 AM

I like my guns. They are recreational, defensive, and I like exercising my right as a responsibility US Citizen in my ability to own one. We'll also need them for the zombie apocalypse that's bound to happen sooner or later.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 08:07 AM

Gelston

10-14-2009, 08:13 AM

Yeah, but a shotgun with a machete bayonet is oh so cool.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 09:57 AM

Sorry you guys decided to continue to serve under the British yoke. And no, you didn't win, we got what we wanted out of the war, Brits stopped impressing American's into Naval service to fight the French. Operation Market Garden was a failure, doesn't mean we were defeated by the Scandinavians(You know, the Canadians of Europe).

http://media.cellfish.com/public/3/6/0/171360/420.jpg

ps. <3

It was a tie! LOL Americans will never admit defeat in any war. The whole world gets that. History does tell a different story whatever spin is put on it.

You don't have to be a good shot with a machete. In the zombie war, yes a gun can help but I think I would pick a machete over one any day. Cut your hair, tight clothing, bicycle and a machete.
I always think about the character Kevin Kline plays in A Fish Called Wanda.

Americans wanted more out of the 1812 war. They just are happy with what they got. You still got thumped.

Methais

10-14-2009, 10:00 AM

It's so retarded to bring up the revolutionary war and how the brits were beaten (quite rightly, according to Mel Gibson and he's the man) when all we're saying is too many guns allowed on the street is dangerous and shocking.
In fact, it kinda sums up the mentality of the nation who strives to keep them there, so I didn't bother to argue.

No matter how badass people think carrying guns is or how safe they think it makes their family, I can't get behind it. Why do you need a gun in your house if guns weren't a problem.

Because the bad guys will always have guns. Take away our guns and only the bad guys will have them. What do you defend your home with then? A frying pan?

Most of you people act like all these shootings are taking place with legal registered weapons that the shooters were permitted to own/carry.

Stop being stupid.

And for the record, I don't own any guns. I should though.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 10:08 AM

Because the bad guys will always have guns. Take away our guns and only the bad guys will have them. What do you defend your home with then? A frying pan?

Most of you people act like all these shootings are taking place with legal registered weapons that the shooters were permitted to own/carry.

Stop being stupid.

And for the record, I don't own any guns. I should though.

Le sigh. Are you promoting America as having more "bad guys" then most? I feel perfectly safe in my home without one. Do you? I'm sure most do. It is a sensational media that glorifies the gun control issue. I realize that I'm not going to walk into a gun fight everywhere in America. I just don't get the desire to own one. It's my opinion. I don't think it's stupid to have it.

Asha

10-14-2009, 10:29 AM

Methais, Methais, Methais..
A gun fight in a bar would not happen SO easily if it were completely illegal to carry a deadly weapon, anytime, ever.
Your point is completely fucking retarded and surprising from you.
Unless it was a joke then it was fucking funny.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 10:34 AM

Really, I should have known better.

You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Replace Sicilian with American and death with gun ownership.

If Methais was being facetious, then insert LOL here.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 10:41 AM

It was a tie! LOL Americans will never admit defeat in any war. The whole world gets that. History does tell a different story whatever spin is put on it.

You don't have to be a good shot with a machete. In the zombie war, yes a gun can help but I think I would pick a machete over one any day. Cut your hair, tight clothing, bicycle and a machete.
I always think about the character Kevin Kline plays in A Fish Called Wanda.

Americans wanted more out of the 1812 war. They just are happy with what they got. You still got thumped.

We got everything we wanted, actually. We stfu some Indians the Brits were riling up against us, the trade restrictions the Brits imposed were gone, and the impressment of Americans into British naval service was over. Not only that, but we learned how to actually create an effective fighting force and built a more modern navy. The British admiralty even declared in 1817 that if another war occured, the British would lose Canada, which we never set out to get in the first place. The only real losers of the war were the canadians, who up until the first world war insisted on not relying on a professional army of regulars.

I love history.

Oh, and the cool part about a shotgun with machete bayonet is that you not only have range, but you now basically have a machete baseball bat.

Celephais

10-14-2009, 10:50 AM

Relying on a machette over a shotgun is foolish. Sure you don't have to worry about ammo, but you do have to worry about range. Depending on the type of zombie (these new age 'biological warfare zombies' instead of just 'undead zombies'), you could end up hacking a zombie and accidently get its blood in your mouth... bam, zombied.

A close combat weapon is a good idea, but the more distance you can maintain, the better.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 10:53 AM

Sweets

10-14-2009, 10:54 AM

What history book did you get all this from?

I mean, yes all of that could have resulted but it wasn't what the Americans set out to do. I'm telling you, defeat is a hard pill to swallow.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=a1ARTA0008442

http://www.galafilm.com/1812/e/background/facts_3.html

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/History/War-of-1812-12030.html
(I can see some good points for the American side here but <3 Laura Secord for helping us out)

Suppa Hobbit Mage

10-14-2009, 10:54 AM

Electricity. Water. Food. Drugs. Guns. Scalpels. Cars.

All of those can be deadly weapons, should we outlaw them all? My point is there will always be fools, why do we have to outlaw everything because of them? I think gun control in it's current state is just fine. I have weapons in my home, and I don't go to bed at night thinking I'm going to have a home invasion and will need to blast someone. I go to bars all the time and have never seen a knife or gun fight, and can only think of one time I actually saw an argument come to blows.

I believe the reality is that most the world is a safe place, and most the people in it actually are decent people. We'll always have stories of nut jobs, and I'm sure a quick google would provide examples in any country. I do not know if crime is worse or better in the US than other countries, but I will say I think it's probably just as safe in suburbia USA as it is in suburbia Canada or the UK.

Let's hug it out.

Kuyuk

10-14-2009, 11:12 AM

are all three of those sources canadian?

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 11:17 AM

We clearly lost Vietnam. Doesn't somehow suggest that our gun ownership was the reason.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 11:20 AM

We politically lost Vietnam, militarily we kicked ass.

Daniel

10-14-2009, 11:21 AM

Asha

10-14-2009, 11:21 AM

Come on SHM. Guns have no other use other than to damage.
Comparing them to food, as deadly weapons? That's reaching plus being incredibly stupid.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 11:25 AM

We clearly lost Vietnam. Doesn't somehow suggest that our gun ownership was the reason.

Two different arguments in the same thread. Gun control and the US kicking butt in past wars. Sean brought up the revolution as an insult. I just thought I would come in and poke at the patriots because it is fun.

I'm with Super Hobbit Mage. It's all good. Let's hug it out.

Tisket

10-14-2009, 11:34 AM

I like that this thread keeps veering into defending against the coming zombie apocalypse.

are all three of those sources canadian?

Because the only accurate sources of information in the world are all American. Amirite?

God you are a drooling idiot.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 11:36 AM

We politically lost Vietnam, militarily we kicked ass.

Oh...my....fucking....god.

:rofl:

Now I know your having fun at me. Too funny.

Daniel

10-14-2009, 11:38 AM

A funny aside, there was an article in a local Karachi paper about how they were going to ease restrictions on gun laws in order to promote security.

I loled.

Celephais

10-14-2009, 11:39 AM

Come on SHM. Guns have no other use other than to damage.
If you don't consider recreation a use, or a means of providing food (weak I know, and still 'does damage to animals')... in that vein there are plenty of vices that fall in the same category, be it bug spray or beer.

... Don't fuck with my bug spray or beer.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 11:40 AM

For a zombie invasion, I will concede. I'm getting this.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k217/distractedmackenzie/1219847820434.jpg

Kuyuk

10-14-2009, 11:41 AM

I like that this thread keeps veering into defending against the coming zombie apocalypse.

Because the only accurate sources of information in the world are all American. Amirite?

God you are a drooling idiot.

And the only accurate sources of information regarding the war of 1812 are canadian, eh?

I didnt say anything in regards to the accurate sources, but if you're going to try and back up your point, your sources should be more varied than one viewpoint. I could care less if we won or lost the war, but at least show me three sources that are not all canadian for facts.

Here's a quote from the canadian encyclopedia: " But Harrison, his lines extended, could not follow up his victory; his Kentuckians were eager to get back to their farms at harvest time." - lolwut?

/shrug

Tisket

10-14-2009, 11:44 AM

I didnt say anything in regards to the accurate sources, but if you're going to try and back up your point, your sources should be more varied than one viewpoint. I could care less if we won or lost the war, but at least show me three sources that are not all canadian for facts.

I don't believe this for a moment. You'd have not blinked or thought twice if she'd used all American sources.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 11:57 AM

Oh...my....fucking....god.

:rofl:

Now I know your having fun at me. Too funny.

You obviously know nothing about Vietnam if you don't know this. Would you like me to post the progress and military achievements made until the government pulled the military out based on a treaty the north didn't honor?

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 12:01 PM

We politically lost Vietnam, militarily we kicked ass.

In the same way everybody in history politically lost Afghanistan? My point holds.

Sweets

10-14-2009, 12:04 PM

You obviously know nothing about Vietnam if you don't know this. Would you like me to post the progress and military achievements made until the government pulled the military out based on a treaty the north didn't honor?

Are you a lawyer? Alot of mob bosses need spin doctors like yourself. I don't care what you learned from the ass kicking...it was still an ass kicking.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

10-14-2009, 12:13 PM

A split second of fucking around in a car can kill someone, or a knife for that matter. Are we going to only use forks, spoons and sporks while we ride bikes, horses and fat girls to work?

Stanley Burrell

10-14-2009, 12:16 PM

A split second of fucking around in a car can kill someone, or a knife for that matter. Are we going to only use forks, spoons and sporks while we ride bikes, horses and fat girls to work?

Anyone who can snipe somebody from 350 yards away between the eyes with a knife deserves to get away with it.

At least if you are killed by a ninja, you are killed by a ninja.

Stanley Burrell

10-14-2009, 12:18 PM

For a zombie invasion, I will concede. I'm getting this.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k217/distractedmackenzie/1219847820434.jpg

Psht.

http://www.seanpallas.com/images/props/screengrabs/noisycricket.jpg

ElvenFury

10-14-2009, 12:26 PM

We should all at least agree that America's penis (Florida) is a hell of a lot bigger than England's (Cornwall?).

ETA: But, our penis has Sean-oT on it, so.... yeah.

TheEschaton

10-14-2009, 12:28 PM

Cars and knives conceivably have other purposes than to kill other things. Primary purposes, even. Unless your main use of your pistol is as a hammer, you can't say the same for guns.

Stanley Burrell

10-14-2009, 12:32 PM

Cars and knives conceivably have other purposes than to kill other things. Primary purposes, even. Unless your main use of your pistol is as a hammer, you can't say the same for guns.

Still though, we need guns to balance out the fact that we have:

A) Bed Bath & Beyond.

B) Gays.

:(

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 12:37 PM

Cars and knives conceivably have other purposes than to kill other things. Primary purposes, even. Unless your main use of your pistol is as a hammer, you can't say the same for guns.

I dunno. Threat? Amusement? My flare gun is primarily used for boat emergencies but I could sure do some damage with it.

TheEschaton

10-14-2009, 12:38 PM

That's not a gun subject to gun control regulations, now is it?

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 12:44 PM

I'd say those guns are paradoxically LESS likely to kill people than shotguns or .22s, neither of which are subject to excessive regulation.

Jack

10-14-2009, 12:59 PM

Ohio does not allow concealed weapons at all, so the fact that these idiots were carrying firearms at all was illegal, let alone shooting up a bar. I am not sure about every state that does issue concealed carry permits, but here in Texas you are prohibited from carrying in bars. Chances are the people involved in this incident did not purchase their weapons legally anyway, and tighter gun control laws would not have had any effect on this.

Bobmuhthol

10-14-2009, 01:04 PM

<<Chances are the people involved in this incident did not purchase their weapons legally anyway, and tighter gun control laws would not have had any effect on this.>>

I agree with your estimate and I entirely disagree with your conclusion. This is an extreme example, but it shows the relationship between punishment and behavior: do you think that there would be fewer illegal guns in possession if people were shot on sight by police if they were found to be carrying?

Atlanteax

10-14-2009, 01:11 PM

We politically lost Vietnam, militarily we kicked ass.

Oh...my....fucking....god.

:rofl:

Now I know your having fun at me. Too funny.

Gelston made an accurate statement.

The US military was completely dominating Vietnam ... at least until the politicians got involved (go figure, huh?).

Refer to the Tet Offensive. Overwhelming US victory in responding to the surprise attack by the NLF which suffered massive causalities.

However, public opinion was hostile to the civilian casualties involved (predominantly inflicted by the NLF, mind you) ... and politicians angled for a withdrawal, on the premise that the NLF's defeat meant that South Vietnam was "safe".

The NLF then took advantage of US troops vacating the region during "Vietnamization" (1969-1975), rebuilt all their supply-lines, etc... and then quickly and easily overwhelmed the ARVN (South Viet army).

.

I'd venture that in light of the ARVN's collapse, where US intelligence had anticipated to be able to "hold the line", that is why we will see US troops remain in Iraq and Afghanistan for the foreseeable future (albeit drawn-down to a residual number of troops, ie post-cold-war Germany) until there is absolutely no doubt of their ability to defend themselves (and their hardware / command-structure is hardwired into the US alliance system).

Gelston

10-14-2009, 01:11 PM

Are you a lawyer? Alot of mob bosses need spin doctors like yourself. I don't care what you learned from the ass kicking...it was still an ass kicking.

The only ass kicking we recieved was by the US public. Militarily we fucking owned the Vietnamese. I'll make a thread and fill you in when I get home.

Jack

10-14-2009, 01:19 PM

I agree with your estimate and I entirely disagree with your conclusion. This is an extreme example, but it shows the relationship between punishment and behavior: do you think that there would be fewer illegal guns in possession if people were shot on sight by police if they were found to be carrying?

Do I think that would have an effect on the type of person who buys an illegal firearm and shoots up a bar? Not so much, it's allready illegal, there's allready a punishment for it. I think extremism such as that would just lead to a lot more shootings. If you're going to be shot for carrying a firearm, you may as well go ahead and use it, the punishment can't get much worse from there.

Asha

10-14-2009, 01:34 PM

Do I think that would have an effect on the type of person who buys an illegal firearm and shoots up a bar? Not so much, it's allready illegal, there's allready a punishment for it. I think extremism such as that would just lead to a lot more shootings. If you're going to be shot for carrying a firearm, you may as well go ahead and use it, the punishment can't get much worse from there.

:)

Bobmuhthol

10-14-2009, 01:36 PM

I don't have any hard evidence to point to, but general behavior theory would lead me to believe that there would be a pretty significant drop in firearm possession as punishments became more severe. There might still be people who would buy a firearm knowing that it would end up killing them, but I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of people who own guns that are willing to give them up before dying over them.

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 01:47 PM

The Rockefeller Drug laws ultimately didn't reduce anything.

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 01:51 PM

The only ass kicking we recieved was by the US public. Militarily we fucking owned the Vietnamese. I'll make a thread and fill you in when I get home.

Conventional engagements do not equal wars. One would think you'd know that. Whether we won or lost has no reflection on gun control, however. Americans being less prepared to use firearms certainly had no bearing on it.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 01:55 PM

Personally, I think more Americans should be given guns...in fact all Americans.

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 02:00 PM

Yeah. Damn us. Reminding you of you in the pre collapse days.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 02:20 PM

Conventional engagements do not equal wars. One would think you'd know that. Whether we won or lost has no reflection on gun control, however. Americans being less prepared to use firearms certainly had no bearing on it.

So you are saying Vietnam wasn't a war?

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 02:25 PM

More in the sense of 'do not equal ALL of a war.'

Gelston

10-14-2009, 02:27 PM

It wasn't total war, no. The only way we can have that nowadays would be involving nuclear weapons. I never said we didn't lose in Vietnam. I said we didn't lose from the military aspect. We lost politically.

ElvenFury

10-14-2009, 02:30 PM

I did some research on this debate because I wanted to post something actually informed, and what I found was interesting, although not that surprising. Most sources are fairly extreme, but this article (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wilson20apr20,0,7286389.story) makes a few good points without coming off as overly pro/con guns.

The short story is that England's gun ban has actually increased their violent crime rate. Back when their citizens could legally own firearms they barely had any gun murders. The going theory is that Americans are just inherently more violent than Brits (or rather that the Brits are a bunch of pacifist ninnies).

http://brooklynskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/1232386205451.jpg

Sean of the Thread

10-14-2009, 02:39 PM

A funny aside, there was an article in a local Karachi paper about how they were going to ease restrictions on gun laws in order to promote security.

I loled.

I don't laugh at the IDF in relation.

Latrinsorm

10-14-2009, 03:22 PM

No matter how badass people think carrying guns is or how safe they think it makes their family, I can't get behind it. Why do you need a gun in your house if guns weren't a problem.It doesn't take a gun to threaten/rob/rape/kill someone. A gun in the hands of a trained individual will, however, make very short work of any would-be robber/rapist/murderer.
I feel perfectly safe in my home without one.No one is ever perfectly safe. The President of the United States has thousands of people whose only job is to make sure nobody attacks him, and we've had three Presidents shot at in the past 50 years (yes, I'm aware of the irony in their being shot at).
I don't have any hard evidence to point to, but general behavior theory would lead me to believe that there would be a pretty significant drop in firearm possession as punishments became more severe.The trouble with punishment as deterrent is that it is directly proportional to how much a person believes they will be a) caught (alive), b) arrested, c) prosecuted, d) convicted. If a person doesn't believe or isn't even thinking about any of those things, the amount of punishment is irrelevant.

Asha

10-14-2009, 05:15 PM

Tall and short is, moar guns means more guns to get into the wrong hands.
Lax laws leading to moar people being allowed to have guns means they're moar likely to be in the hands of someone who'll use it wrong or have it taken by someone who'll use it wrong.
There's no training in self defence or even how to shoot only bad guys in the face required for a license.

Moar.
It's today's word

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 05:17 PM

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 05:29 PM

Really? Seems like the evidence in your country suggests those folks will get them anyways.

Have a source for that?

Tea & Strumpets

10-14-2009, 05:39 PM

Have a source for that?

http://han.grumblemutterspit.org/images/hotfuzz.jpg

That's right, another Hot Fuzz reference.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 05:39 PM

Have a source for that?

The article in elvenfury's post, even though opinion, is a pretty good read and has a few statistics about both countries. Take a look of you haven't.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 05:39 PM

That was the Police, they are supposed to have them...sometimes.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 05:41 PM

The article in elvenfury's post, even though opinion, is a pretty good read and has a few statistics about both countries. Take a look of you haven't.

Opinion doesnt constitute evidence. Whoever writes it.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 05:47 PM

Opinion doesnt constitute evidence. Whoever writes it.

The article is opinion, but it has factual information in which the opinion is built around it.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 05:48 PM

The short story is that England's gun ban has actually increased their violent crime rate.

Correlation...causation...blah blah blah.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 05:48 PM

The article is opinion, but it has factual information in which the opinion is built around it.

My posts have factual information in which my opinion is built around.

Now post some evidence or GTFO

Gelston

10-14-2009, 05:55 PM

So you don't want to look at the article bursting with facts?

Bobmuhthol

10-14-2009, 06:00 PM

Correlation...causation...blah blah blah.

This.

Jack

10-14-2009, 06:04 PM

According to the BBC, in 06-07 there were 59 firearm related homicides, 507 serious injuries from firearms, 18,489 fire arm incidents. The last figure includes air guns. I'd say this means banning guns all together is not the final answer to the problem of gun violence.

Source link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 06:11 PM

The last figure also includes crimes with imitation firearms (which could be a stick wrapped in a jacket but brandished like a gun).

Jack

10-14-2009, 06:18 PM

The last figure also includes crimes with imitation firearms (which could be a stick wrapped in a jacket but brandished like a gun).

2517 offenses involving immitation firearms, so 15,972 incidents involving real fire arms, that's not an insiginificant number itself, especially since there aren't supposed to be any fire arms at all.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 07:14 PM

2517 offenses involving immitation firearms, so 15,972 incidents involving real fire arms, that's not an insiginificant number itself, especially since there aren't supposed to be any fire arms at all.

Not sure if I'm reading it wrong, but the BCS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_07_07_crime.pdf) (which is where the BBC got their figures from - including the graph on that page which shows the amount of firearm incidents not including airguns as less than 10k) says the following on page 63:

"In 2006/07 there were a provisional 9,608 firearm offences recorded in England and Wales, a 13 per cent decrease on 2005/06, and the lowest number recorded since 2000/01."

Now 10k firearm offences is a nasty amount to have, but in a country of 60 million, that's actually not a huge amount...particularly when the key statistics you have used are: "59 firearm related homicides, 507 serious injuries from firearms"

Any gun crime is bad, but I can pretty much guarantee that if you increase the availablity of guns, the amount of gun crime goes up accordingly.

Latrinsorm

10-14-2009, 07:31 PM

My posts have factual information in which my opinion is built around.

Now post some evidence or GTFOFirearm crime rate (per 1000) in the United States in 2007: 1.6
Firearm crime rate (per 1000) in England and Wales in 2006-2007: 0.3

Violent crime rate (per 1000) in the United States in 2007: 20.4
Violent crime rate (per 1000) in England and Wales in 2006-2007: 35.0

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/firearmnonfataltab.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_07_08_crime_statistics_200708.pdf

Methais

10-14-2009, 07:33 PM

I can pretty much guarantee that if you increase the availablity of guns, the amount of gun crime goes up accordingly.

Would you fuck with someone if you knew they had a gun?

(Assuming you were a criminal and wanted to do criminal things to said person.)

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 07:41 PM

Firearm crime rate (per 1000) in the United States in 2007: 1.6
Firearm crime rate (per 1000) in England and Wales in 2006-2007: 0.3

Violent crime rate (per 1000) in the United States in 2007: 20.4
Violent crime rate (per 1000) in England and Wales in 2006-2007: 35.0

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/firearmnonfataltab.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_07_08_crime_statistics_200708.pdf

So which part of that proves that the ban on gun ownership (outside of gun clubs etc.) has increased the violent crime rate? Or that it has had no impact on gun crime?

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 07:43 PM

Would you fuck with someone if you knew they had a gun?

(Assuming you were a criminal and wanted to do criminal things to said person.)

If I had a gun and figured I was untouchable enough to commit a crime and escape detection/conviction, then yes. I would. I would probably think I would be better at using it than the person I was going to rob (or whatever) because that would be a minor delusion compared to the previous ones.

Methais

10-14-2009, 07:53 PM

If I had a gun and figured I was untouchable enough to commit a crime and escape detection/conviction, then yes. I would. I would probably think I would be better at using it than the person I was going to rob (or whatever) because that would be a minor delusion compared to the previous ones.

Going by the video this thread is based on, chances are the criminal (in this case, you) would miss every shot. And then get blasted in the face by your would be victim.

I bet those guys thought they were marksmen too.

Lemme slightly rephrase my question though: If you knew which people had guns and which ones didn't, which one(s) would you be more inclined to attack?

Latrinsorm

10-14-2009, 07:55 PM

So which part of that proves that the ban on gun ownership (outside of gun clubs etc.) has increased the violent crime rate? Or that it has had no impact on gun crime?I was merely posting factual information that I thought was relevant to the discussion. I do not know to what extent they or any other fact will prove anything to you.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 08:02 PM

I was merely posting factual information that I thought was relevant to the discussion. I do not know to what extent they or any other fact will prove anything to you.

Oh, ok.

In that case, Get on my horse, my horse is amazing...

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 08:03 PM

Going by the video this thread is based on, chances are the criminal (in this case, you) would miss every shot. And then get blasted in the face by your would be victim.

I bet those guys thought they were marksmen too.

Lemme slightly rephrase my question though: If you knew which people had guns and which ones didn't, which one(s) would you be more inclined to attack?

It depends whether the people who didnt have guns were in possession of whatever it was I was after.

Warriorbird

10-14-2009, 08:06 PM

So which part of that proves that the ban on gun ownership (outside of gun clubs etc.) has increased the violent crime rate? Or that it has had no impact on gun crime?

The same bit where it says that your ban has reduced it.

Nieninque

10-14-2009, 08:10 PM

That's called stating the fucking obvious.

ElvenFury

10-14-2009, 08:30 PM

Lemme get this straight...

Pro gun people insist that guns in the hands of responsible citizens causes criminals to think twice before committing crimes, and also allows those citizens to protect themselves in case the criminals go ahead anyway. Their theory is that the criminals will find a way to get weapons no matter what, just like bans on drugs and alcohol haven't been completely successful.

Anti gun people think that stopping the legal flow of firearms into the populous will greatly reduce the number of guns that trickle into the hands of criminals, thereby reducing crime and making things generally safer.

Both sides consider their logic to be obvious, and insist that the other side's view is merely groundless opinion. Statistics are worthless, because causality can't be proven.

Maybe we should switch to a topic that people are more open to changing their mind on? ...Like abortion?

I can say with certainty that guns will never be totally banned in the US. It's part of our culture (for better or worse), and widely regarded as an intrinsic right, like freedom of speech. I'd also like to say that gun nuts scare the crap out of me, but I have a lot of respect for them. Besides, isn't this why we haven't conquered Canada; so that the pacifists, conscientious objectors and vegans have a place to emigrate to?

I repeat: America! Fuck Yeah!

Methais

10-14-2009, 08:41 PM

It depends whether the people who didnt have guns were in possession of whatever it was I was after.

Everybody in this situation has what you're after. You just have to decide who to take it from.

Nice dodge though.

Asha

10-14-2009, 09:01 PM

Bobmuhthol

10-14-2009, 09:03 PM

<<Gun rights!?
Can't you fucking see how stupid that is?>>

Our Constitution thinks it's awesome.

<<Statistics are worthless, because causality can't be proven.>>

No, causality can be assumed with theory and proven (to a degree of confidence!) with statistics. A good theory + valid statistics proves causality.

Gelston

10-14-2009, 09:06 PM

Well, if we do, we do. Its our Right to own firearms. Most people do it responsibly. And if people from the UK don't agree with that, well, I don't really give a fuck. Don't like it, you can move here, become a citizen, and run for congress or vote for like-minded people.

Asha

10-14-2009, 09:08 PM

Yeah!
I hope you shoot the shit out of eachother.

Kuyuk

10-14-2009, 09:13 PM

Maybe if we went back in time when people used bows and shields, the UK could compete.

Unfortunately, gunpowder has put Britain back in the dark ages. They dont know how to cope with guns.

ElvenFury

10-14-2009, 09:15 PM

No, causality can be assumed with theory and proven (to a degree of confidence!) with statistics. A good theory + valid statistics proves causality.

Right, my statement was tongue in cheek because the assumption of causality is only made when the outcome is in agreement with a persons preconceived notions. Otherwise, statistics are discarded as unrelated.

Latrinsorm

10-14-2009, 10:09 PM

Basically, Americans believe that injecting the population with firearms will lower gun crime.
That's it. You fucking people are completely insane.
Your reasons for defending it make you sound like each one of you is military.
After reading this thread it's obvious that you've all been conditioned to believe in gun rights.
Gun rights!?
Can't you fucking see how stupid that is? I hope you all shoot the shit out of eachother.I think the more interesting question is whether injecting the population with firearms lowers all crime or violent crime. Clearly gun crime would go down if guns were not only banned but systematically removed from the population - but what about knife crime? Sexual assaults? Muggings?

Stating that causality cannot be proven is like saying arithmetic can't be proven - while accurate from the strictest possible point of view, I doubt very much people voice the same objections when presented with the bill at the grocers. "There's no proof $2 of milk and $3 of ham makes $5! Good day sir or madam, as the case may be!!"

Fallen

10-14-2009, 10:13 PM

As an American, I couldn't imagine our country without the right of law-abiding citizens to own firearms if they so chose. It would be in a word, un-American.

ElvenFury

10-14-2009, 10:16 PM

Stating that causality cannot be proven is like saying arithmetic can't be proven

Duh. I guess my point wasn't clear. I was lightly mocking the statements previously made by others that statistics were irrelevant because they didn't prove causality. Should I edit to add italics or what?

Paradii

10-14-2009, 10:36 PM

What do those pansies in the UK hunt with? Oh yeah, they already extirpated all of their large game. Smooth move guys.

Latrinsorm

10-14-2009, 11:15 PM

TheEschaton

10-15-2009, 12:07 AM

As an American, I couldn't imagine our country without the right of law-abiding citizens to own firearms if they so chose. It would be in a word, un-American.

I, personally, agree with your statement, and, sadly, think this says something damning about what it is to be American.

Of course, I'm an immigrant, from a country colonized by the British. I may just have that faint whiff of sensability about me.

-TheE-

pabstblueribbon

10-15-2009, 12:10 AM

I, personally, agree with your statement, and, sadly, think this says something damning about what it is to be American.

Of course, I'm an immigrant, from a country colonized by the British. I may just have that faint whiff of sensability about me.

-TheE-

I smell a whiff of something entirely different from sensibility.

TheEschaton

10-15-2009, 12:12 AM

OH NOES I SPELT SUMTHIN WRONG ON TEH INTERWEBS, MY POINT IS INVALIDAETED.

I had to struggle to spell invalidated incorrectly there.

pabstblueribbon

10-15-2009, 12:15 AM

OH NOES

Wasn't my point really, just thought I'd point out the irony.

I agree with alot of what you post and I haven't read this thread, but to think you are more sensible because you come from a country colonized by the British is laughable.

You sound like a pompous shit heel (thats the whiff I got) and

North America was also colonized by the British.

Double fail.

Tisket

10-15-2009, 12:42 AM

OH NOES I SPELT SUMTHIN WRONG ON TEH INTERWEBS, MY POINT IS INVALIDAETED.

Sort of like some people (you) think that posting a boob picture invalidates all points a person might make ever afterward, eh? Just sayin.

Celephais

10-15-2009, 12:52 AM

Sort of like some people (you) think that posting a boob picture invalidates all points a person might make ever afterward, eh? Just sayin.
Please punctuate this post with more pictures of your boobs.

... amirite?

Tisket

10-15-2009, 01:02 AM

lol, men are so single minded. God love you all.

Celephais

10-15-2009, 01:04 AM

lol, men are so single minded. God love you all.
The mind has nothing to do with this.

Nieninque

10-15-2009, 03:42 AM

Duh. I guess my point wasn't clear. I was lightly mocking the statements previously made by others that statistics were irrelevant because they didn't prove causality. Should I edit to add italics or what?

If you are referring to me, I would like to point out that I was not saying that the statistics were irrelevant, just that they did not confirm the argument [you] were wanting to demonstrate. Given that most of the statistics given came from the British Crime Survey, they were anything but irrelevant, but they demonstrated different things than they were purported to and were being misrepresented a great deal.

I think the more interesting question is whether injecting the population with firearms lowers all crime or violent crime. Clearly gun crime would go down if guns were not only banned but systematically removed from the population - but what about knife crime? Sexual assaults? Muggings?

I have never professed that the UK is a peaceful place. We have plenty of crime and violent crime, Knife crimes - as you have said - are a real problem. The use of weapons in crime is widespread. The use of guns, in comparison is very low.

Well, if we do, we do. Its our Right to own firearms. Most people do it responsibly. And if people from the UK don't agree with that, well, I don't really give a fuck. Don't like it, you can move here, become a citizen, and run for congress or vote for like-minded people.

I dont mind whether the US has the right to bear arms or not. That's your business. Please don't confuse my input into this thread as some attempt to convince you that your right to bear arms should be rescinded. I just like to counter the stupid arguments about the UK and our 'firearm epidemic'.

Gelston

10-15-2009, 04:18 AM

I dont mind whether the US has the right to bear arms or not. That's your business. Please don't confuse my input into this thread as some attempt to convince you that your right to bear arms should be rescinded. I just like to counter the stupid arguments about the UK and our 'firearm epidemic'.

That was mostly directed at that other Brit who says he hopes we all shoot each other.