You Be The Judge: Traffic Court

[Revalos]

I recently got pulled over in wonderful Caroline County, VA for doing 70 in a 55 on what to me appeared to be an interstate (RTE 207/301 around Bowling Green) for all intents and purposes, it was a clear day and there were maybe like fifteen cars on that section of road. What made matters worse was that I was being cited for doing EXACTLY 70 MPH, which is just enough for my insurance company to care (15 over not on a limited access highway) and would mean probably a couple grand in insurance premiums over the course of the next five years since I'd lose my good driver bonuses and such.

I'm a safe driver, I may drive a little faster than the posted limit, but usually no more than 12 or so, and then only on multi-lane divided highways. And I was going with traffic, it wasn't like I was blowing by people or anything. I've never had an accident (even living in DC for 6 years). Never had a real moving violation ticket (just those stupid speed cameras in DC) either.

So I decide I'm going to go to court for this one instead of just paying the ticket over the phone or by mail. Yes, it is a 2 hour drive and means I have to take a whole day off work to do it, but it is the principal of the matter.

I get there ridiculously early anyway (heh...no, I did not speed to get there, I just left a laaaarge margin for traffic across the Nice bridge and other crap on 301) so I head into the court room in my Divorce Suit (hell...it brought me luck before, why not wear it again?) and sit in the back of the room to watch the festivities.

I see a couple doozies...84 in a 45 gets 10 days in jail an $500 fine, 30 day suspension + court fees (and it was an old lady!), a bunch of 94 in 65 getting $300 fines and traffic school or suspension, then they started on the lower offenses.

I see a 74 in a 55 get traffic school and court fees. I see a 72 in a 55 get faulty equipment (something about a stuck cruise control...yeah right), but then I see a 68 in a 55 get a $100 fine. Then I start to recognize a pattern...the lesser offenders are bringing their driver's record to the judge. I did not even know you could do that! That 68 (13 over? seriously?) guy didn't bring his and he got the smackdown. So now I'm thinking...oh shit.

I also saw a variety of pleas and plea deals. Some folks pleading not guilty and explaining why they were speeding and sometimes getting speed reductions, but other times getting pwned. Most seem to be pleading guilty that are getting better deals, but not every time. One girl stated she did not want to enter a plea and got a reduction in speed and a fine (I think it was a 74 in a 55 being reduced to a 69 in a 55).

So here it is...my time has finally come. I get up the the front next to the arresting officer and plead guilty. I had been thinking about pleading not guilty and getting the speed reduced or faulty equipment, but I wanted to try and get the lower charge too. The judge asks me if I have my record with me. I say no. The judge asks me how many tickets I've received. I answer none, driving for 14 years. I mention that I recently came back from an Iraq deployment and had been trained in tactical driving.

So...with all that information, what do you think I was charged with?

[radamanthys]

Reduction, 100$ fine.

Deployment counted well in your favor.

Edit: Poll came late.

[Sweets]

I still don't get the principle though. Speed, get caught, pay ticket. The end. Why are you so special that there is a principle? Can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Parkbandit]

So...with all that information, what do you think I was charged with?

Driving under the influence of self importance?

[4a6c1]

I voted for the worst one because I think it is the one you should have got. People who go too fast are wrong about alot of things, the least of which is that they are entitled because of special circumstances.

Just in case I am not clear. H8 H8 H8 on you.

[Monsoon]

Failure to heed a highway sign, $25 fine + court fees

It's the most specific option, but maybe you Googled "possible traffic court penalties" or something.

[Revalos]

See I don't get the hate. If I had pleaded not guilty and then just made something up, sure, hate all you want. I plead guilty to the charge, I had no issues with the fact that I had committed the crime. I just believed that a first offense shouldn't completely screw someone insurance wise. The judge had asked several people if they had taken drivers training, which is why I brought up Iraq and the pre-deployment training.

[ElvenFury]

I used to drive like a jackass. I didn't realize it until I had a son and started driving defensively. Now I look at every person who drives like I used to as a direct threat to my child. Maybe I should go burn your house down?

[4a6c1]

I used to drive like a jackass. I didn't realize it until I had a son and started driving defensively. Now I look at every person who drives like I used to as a direct threat to my child. Maybe I should go burn your house down?

This.

Also, Revalosperson, you know you can take defensive driving and some other courses, and depending on your state volunteer somewhere and your insurance will bring it down again, right?

[Parkbandit]

See I don't get the hate. If I had pleaded not guilty and then just made something up, sure, hate all you want. I plead guilty to the charge, I had no issues with the fact that I had committed the crime. I just believed that a first offense shouldn't completely screw someone insurance wise. The judge had asked several people if they had taken drivers training, which is why I brought up Iraq and the pre-deployment training.

To be honest, I was mostly kidding.

[Revalos]

My response was mostly directed at JS, Parkbandit, but I saw a lot of hate the last time someone brought up a situation like this on the boards, so I figured I'd let the PC be the judge and see how close they came to the verdict.

And no, I did not know I could take a course voluntarily to reduce insurance effects, I only thought it had to do with the court system. But I hate insurance to begin with, so I admit I didn't do much research.

And what exactly is "driving like an idiot" from an objective standpoint? In DC, on the Beltway or many other roads, if you are not driving 10 mph over the limit, you are a road hazard. If you tried to drive at or under 55 MPH on the beltway, you would be rear-ended by a semi. If I was doing the bob-and-weave through traffic to get to where I'm going 8 seconds earlier than I would have, that would be different than just driving with traffic.

[Latrinsorm]

The flow of traffic argument isn't a great excuse for speeding on a multi-lane road.

Also, I can guarantee you that no judge would agree that the person going the speed limit is the road hazard over the semi drivers who can't restrain themselves from crashing into people.

[The Ponzzz]

Ticket threads come up every now and then and it seems no one ever goes with the best remedy. Call a ticket doctor lawyer. They cost $100, roughly. You will get a non-traffic violation fine + court fees. Unless you're doing something retarded, like 100 in a 35. Why why why why why would anyone go in guilty!?

Any who, live and learn. I have no clue what you got.

[diethx]

but I saw a lot of hate the last time someone brought up a situation like this on the boards

Not for speeding.. pretty sure that's just for getting caught drunk driving.

So what did you get?

[Stretch]

My 70 in a 55 got dropped. $60 court fee and online traffic school.

[Beguiler]

Soooo....tell us, already!

(Patience is not my strong suit.)

[4a6c1]

(Patience is not my strong suit.)

See somebody said that to me one time while I was driving really slow (as usual) and then had a follow up of ".....I HAVE TO PEE!" so I pretended there was alot of animals running across the road (really frantic squirrels. mmm nuts.) and speed bumps that I had to brake hard for all the sudden (because I didnt see them until they were right in front of me!).

[Xanator]

Yeah, I got a reckless driving charge when I was 17 for going 101 in a 55. Had to go to court because the officer wrote me for reckless. I was in scenic Daphne, AL, and the municipal court judge has a bit of a reputation. He tried to give me a 20-day jail sentence. Everyone in the back was like, "Someone go tell the judge he can't throw a 17-year-old in jail?"

They brought me back up after the rest of the cases that day were heard, and I got a $500 fine + fees (ended up right around $650) and had my license suspended for a year. He also made me sign a probation order for a 60-day suspended sentence in juvenile detention that would have gone into effect if I was convicted of any traffic offense over the course of my suspension (I assume in addition to any penalty I would have incurred for driving while suspended). But I was really going 90, and it was at 2 AM on an arrow-straight divided highway...

Anyway, it's a pretty good object lesson of the sometime-effectiveness of the penal system. I lost my license for a full year from just before my 18th to just before my 19th birthdays. I had to go to quarterly probation hearings that lasted 4+ hours just so I could say, "Hi!" to the judge. I spent many a night stuck at home devoid of a ride, and getting home from work after midnight became an adventure. I also came $650 out of pocket, which wasn't the most exciting thing I've ever had to do. I was always an excellent driver, just a speed junkie when I got the chance to open it up. That was my first offense, and I don't anticipate registering another, thanks. Just everybody drive the limit, put your cellphones down, and let's all stop being dicks.

[Gelston]

My last ticket was about 9 years ago. I got busted for 70 in a 45. I went to the court hearing and managed to talk it down to 55 and paid $120. I also signed up for driving class, but didn't go. Just paying the $20 for that seemed to have been enough because it never showed up on my driving record.

[Ashliana]

This past Christmas, I was visiting family in Kentucky. I decided to take off on Christmas day (I'd been there for about a week) after the presents/early dinner meal. On my way back, about 7 hours behind me and 1 to go, I was passing through a part of "Shenandoah County," which I now know is a huge speed trap the county uses to suck the dollars out of passersby. I was going making really good time the whole way, but not seriously speeding. About an hour from home, and very tired, some idiot in the left lane was going about 10 miles per hour UNDER the speed limit, with a matching idiot in the right lane precisely matching her speed, and cars piled behind them.

The road ahead of these two cars was clear for a mile or more. When the driver in the left FINALLY got her head out of her ass, sped up and pulled over to the right, two cars behind her did the same, and I sped up for less than 10 seconds, trying to get the fuck away from the slowdown, got in the right lane, immediately slowed down to about 5 miles over the limit, and.. look in my rear-view mirror, at flashing blue lights. I had never been pulled over by a cop before, not once.

Cop gets out.. I'm thinking, "Jesus christ. Working on Christmas? This guy is either going to be forgiving, or a huge asshole." Guess which one he was?

He wrote me a citation for reckless driving for going 81 in a 65. For all of about 6 seconds, and in order to not help create yet another traffic jam. I wanted to spit in his face, but was very polite, didn't argue/etc. Normally, reckless driving requires that you go 20+ the posted speeding limit, which I didn't do. But the other part is that going 80 miles/hour or over, ANYWHERE in Virginia, regardless of the posted limit (it could be 70, 75, and would still apply) constitutes "reckless driving."

You can't just pay the fine over the phone/Internet for reckless driving in Virginia; you have to show up to the court of the jurisdiction you were cited in. I was working as a temp at the time, and saw the fines for reckless driving included a $2,500 fine, a suspended license, possible jailtime, and I couldn't afford a lawyer (and did not want to tell my parents). Took the advice of some people online.. did the online traffic school thing, got my points to +5, got a certified copy of my DMV record and showed up to court in a suit.

I was hoping to be able to meet with the commonwealth's attorney, but didn't get a chance (didn't even see one at the court), just the judge and the complaining officer. Judge saw that I had no previous tickets, max points on my license, and lowered the charge to something like 75/65, which was just a ticket, lost 3 points (to +2), paid the fine and left. At the time I was ecstatic to not have an RD charge on my record, or lose my license.. but in retrospect, Shenandoah Valley can go fuck itself. In any case, I'm paranoid about my speed now.

[diethx]

I've gotten one ticket here in GA in the past 5+ years, and it was for going 81 in a 65 on my way to school. I didn't even bother fighting it, just paid the fine and got the 2 points on my license.

I got 2 tickets in NY, one for doing 86 in a 55, which I wrote a letter about and got it knocked down to 65 in a 55 and paid a bigger fine. The other was 78 in a 55 which I got right before I moved, so I just paid it since I couldn't be in court.

[Revalos]

Soooo....tell us, already!

(Patience is not my strong suit.)

I'm going to reveal the charge tomorrow evening. The votes are still kind of even.

[Warriorbird]

I haven't gotten a single ticket since my divorce.

[Mabus]

I haven't gotten a single ticket since my divorce.
Before that you got a few for her "driving you crazy"?

Just askin'!
;)

[Nieninque]

I'm going to reveal the charge tomorrow evening. The votes are still kind of even.

Just do it now...it's not like this thread is 300 posts of "OOOH I CAN'T WAIT TO FIND OUT!!!1111"

Dick.

[Revalos]

Just do it now...it's not like this thread is 300 posts of "OOOH I CAN'T WAIT TO FIND OUT!!!1111"

Dick.

And if it was 300 posts like that I'd probably post the answer now. Ticket threads really bring out the hate.

[Jayvn]

By tomorrow evening I wont give a shit anymore

[Swami71]

OMG this poll is so close I can't wait to hear the answer!!!!!

[Rimalon]

I dunno man, the people going before you got it pretty rough. I predict that you got boned as well!

I drive a news van around every day for work, usually logging 150--200 miles a day, on Pennsylvania highways/beltways. I got busted once for 75 in a 55, speeding back to the station to edit my shit before the hard deadline of our newscast. The cop was a hardass, I ended up paying out the ass.

Since then, I just drive the limit, or maybe +5 over if I have to get somewhere on a time limit. Fuck tha police.

[Trouble]

I usually do around 8 over on highways and around 5 over on side streets. Some parts of the Beltway I'll do 15 over (basically just keeping up with the pack). Of course I go slow if its a pedestrian-heavy area or a school zone. I got one ticket for 66 in a 55 back in like 1990 in some hick-ass county in VA. Bastards.

[Nieninque]

Bump!

Happy Post in the wrong thread day!

[Revalos]

The case was dismissed. No court fees, no ticket, no fine.

I think it was because the fucking cop could not stop giggling on the stand. Probably started when I got asked about the Iraq training he thought I was bullshitting and that the judge wouldn't buy it. Divorce suit wins again!

I'm intrigued by the evenness of the poll though. It pretty much lends credence to the point that the punishments for the crimes are fairly random in application.

Do the haters honestly think the book should be thrown at a first offender? Does that really solve the overall problem of reckless driving? It appeared to me that the vast majority of people just ended up not caring about the ticket at all and not showing up. The fines don't work obviously since they'll just keep doing what they were doing. What punishment should speeders get?

[Drisco]

I win! I voted Dismissed. :). I also didn't read the story till now. I just though that dismissed would be right since it would be the answer that would spark a poll.

[Xanator]

The case was dismissed. No court fees, no ticket, no fine.

I think it was because the fucking cop could not stop giggling on the stand. Probably started when I got asked about the Iraq training he thought I was bullshitting and that the judge wouldn't buy it. Divorce suit wins again!

I'm intrigued by the evenness of the poll though. It pretty much lends credence to the point that the punishments for the crimes are fairly random in application.

Do the haters honestly think the book should be thrown at a first offender? Does that really solve the overall problem of reckless driving? It appeared to me that the vast majority of people just ended up not caring about the ticket at all and not showing up. The fines don't work obviously since they'll just keep doing what they were doing. What punishment should speeders get?

There are lots of uneven punishments for traffic violations across the countr, because states set their own traffic laws. The verbiage of the laws can differ greatly from state to state, and penalties are certainly far from uniform.

[Methais]

I'm intrigued by the evenness of the poll though. It pretty much lends credence to the point that the punishments for the crimes are fairly random in application.

I figured the judge was a raging anti-war liberal and considered you an evil racist for going to Iraq, therefore giving you the worst penalty on the poll list.

[mgoddess]

The case was dismissed. No court fees, no ticket, no fine.
Nice... I win too. I was figuring it was dismissed because of the whole Iraq service and tactical training thing. :shrug:

[AnticorRifling]

The case was dismissed. No court fees, no ticket, no fine.

I think it was because the fucking cop could not stop giggling on the stand. Probably started when I got asked about the Iraq training he thought I was bullshitting and that the judge wouldn't buy it. Divorce suit wins again!

I'm intrigued by the evenness of the poll though. It pretty much lends credence to the point that the punishments for the crimes are fairly random in application.

Do the haters honestly think the book should be thrown at a first offender? Does that really solve the overall problem of reckless driving? It appeared to me that the vast majority of people just ended up not caring about the ticket at all and not showing up. The fines don't work obviously since they'll just keep doing what they were doing. What punishment should speeders get?

I think the training line is bullshit. But your honor even though I know the difference between a war zone, an armored vehicle, a road in the USA, and a regular car I WAS TRAINED SO ITS COOL AMIRITE?!

You admitted you were speeding, take the punishment, or were you given advanced training in not being held accountable for your actions?

[Revalos]

I'll say it again, I PLEAD GUILTY. He then asked if I had had driver's training. I said yes, tactical driving for my Iraq deployment. I was under oath. Do I lie and say "no your honor, I haven't had driver's training?" How is that better?

Where did I say I was innocent because I had super cool driving training? No, I was ready for whatever they were going to charge me with. It was up to the judge what I got.

[AnticorRifling]

I must be tired and misread then. I thought you said you went and fought it as in claimed innocense. Carry on.

[Daniel]

This.

Also, Revalosperson, you know you can take defensive driving and some other courses, and depending on your state volunteer somewhere and your insurance will bring it down again, right?

I wonder if I can get the same thing for the high speed and evasive driving courses I've taken.

[Daniel]

Ticket threads come up every now and then and it seems no one ever goes with the best remedy. Call a ticket doctor lawyer. They cost $100, roughly. You will get a non-traffic violation fine + court fees. Unless you're doing something retarded, like 100 in a 35. Why why why why why would anyone go in guilty!?

Any who, live and learn. I have no clue what you got.

Seriously, what kind of smuck goes to law school to get people out of speeding tickets?

[Clove]

Do the haters honestly think the book should be thrown at a first offender? Does that really solve the overall problem of reckless driving? It appeared to me that the vast majority of people just ended up not caring about the ticket at all and not showing up. The fines don't work obviously since they'll just keep doing what they were doing. What punishment should speeders get?I don't think that the book should be thrown at first offenders. I do believe in rule of law, however and I believe you should have paid a fine, a fine that would sting a little. That's really the point, now isn't it? As for the fines working I suspect that most of the people you saw getting fined that day drove more carefully in the future, but you're not really making a case against fines because it doesn't eliminate speeding are you? Are you? Executing and giving jail sentences doesn't eliminate murders, either; should we give first offenders warnings?

I believe that you're a safe driver and that in your judgment going approx. 70mph wasn't reckless. But the speed limit was 55. I can honestly say I probably would have been driving faster than you on the highway you described (I like to go about 75 if conditions are clear and traffic is light). But the speed limit was 55.

If you're a responsible driver, you ought to know the speed limits. If you exceed them and get caught, you ought to be prepared to face (and receive) consequences for it; because the point of the consequences are to discourage people from exceeding the speed limit. Nobody is ever entitled to mercy.

Frankly I think showing up for the ticket, dressing and behaving respectfully and pleading "guilty" all worked the most in your favor. It sent the message that you took the issue seriously enough to come to court, but didn't try to waste the judge's time with a stupid excuse or lame story. It paid off and the judge extended mercy, but had it gone the other way, I don't think you would have had reason to complain. If avoiding a fine is extremely important to you, be very cautious about your speed.

[TheEschaton]

The thing is, all laws are made pretty strict, and judges usually have leniency and move downwards from the statutorily defined punishment, which is why many of them are seen as soft or liberal. For example, a second speeding ticket in 2 years at 15+ mph can land you in jail in some instances, technically.

Think about how often you go 15+ mph over the speed limit. Think about spenidng 30 days in jail for that.

I agree with Mabus that people should generally be more accountable, but when asked to be more accountable to a law that a lawmaker made to appear tough on crime, I understand when the shit gets tossed out the window.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Traffic tickets whilst a deterrent to most (myself included) are basically fund raisers for the county.

At any rate drive safely.

[Clove]

The thing is, all laws are made pretty strict, and judges usually have leniency and move downwards from the statutorily defined punishment, which is why many of them are seen as soft or liberal. For example, a second speeding ticket in 2 years at 15+ mph can land you in jail in some instances, technically.

Think about how often you go 15+ mph over the speed limit. Think about spenidng 30 days in jail for that.

I agree with Mabus that people should generally be more accountable, but when asked to be more accountable to a law that a lawmaker made to appear tough on crime, I understand when the shit gets tossed out the window.

-TheE-I don't disagree with you on any point. A judge should have discretion, I just don't think any of us are entitled to leniency when we deliberately ignore a law. If you receive it, wonderful; if you don't well, now you have a good reason to adhere. That's all I'm saying.