View Full Version : What Coaches Should Do
ClydeR
09-13-2009, 05:33 PM
LOUISVILLE — A mother is angry about a trip led by the head football coach at Breckinridge County High School. The coach took about 20 players on a school bus late last month to his church, where nearly half of them — including her son — were baptized.
Michelle Ammons said her 16-year-old son was baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service — and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object.
"Nobody should push their faith on anybody else," said Ammons, whose son, Robert Coffey, said Coach Scott Mooney told him and other players that the Aug. 26 outing would include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner.
More... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-09-07-kentucky-football-trip-baptisms_N.htm)
Instead of calling in the ACLU and claiming that he son was "brainwashed," she should be glad that someone has taken an interest in her son's spiritual health, since she obviously hasn't.
This is what it means to leave no child behind. The government of Breckinridge County, Kentucky, should be congratulated for its actions.
landy
09-13-2009, 05:47 PM
The coach should be fired and banned from any similar position in the future. The school should be slapped with a heavy fine. The church that performed the ritual on a minor should also be fined heavily. Stop trying to indoctrinate kids in to the most historically violent sect of religion in the world.
Bad move on the Coach's part.
AMUSED1
09-13-2009, 07:15 PM
I agree. A bad move on his part. Coaches should only be there to coach SPORTS, not religion. Especially without the parents' consent.
radamanthys
09-13-2009, 09:42 PM
Yea- there's a reason you need a permission slip for a field trip. En Loco Parentis only goes so far.
Stupid move on the coach's part. With such a lack of better judgement towards his custodial responsibility, he should likely not be in that position. Superintendant should be in hot water, too, if he was involved.
Euler
09-13-2009, 09:56 PM
I can understand why people would get upset, but I think it needs to be kept in the correct perspective. Did the baptism help them play better? Jesus wins games.
TheEschaton
09-13-2009, 10:04 PM
I can understand why people would get upset, but I think it needs to be kept in the correct perspective. Did the baptism help them play better? Jesus wins games.
And here I thought Notre Dame sucked.
radamanthys
09-13-2009, 10:17 PM
And here I thought Notre Dame sucked.
The only thing that sucks at a catholic school...
Maybe I won't go there.
Euler
09-13-2009, 10:42 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GpsGCJBNVyA/SXZAGZP8BzI/AAAAAAAABNA/llAPH4vhxRM/s320/jesus_football.jpg
Geshron
09-14-2009, 12:13 AM
The coach should be fired and banned from any similar position in the future. The school should be slapped with a heavy fine. The church that performed the ritual on a minor should also be fined heavily. Stop trying to indoctrinate kids in to the most historically violent sect of religion in the world.
This.
radamanthys
09-14-2009, 12:22 AM
Imagine if the coach had taken him to a, say, satanic ritual.
I'd love to see the difference in coverage.
Imagine if the coach took them to a whore house...
Geshron
09-14-2009, 12:44 AM
I do enjoy the satire of the far right in Clyde. I think even the far right would tell Clyde to chill.
The coach should be fired and banned from any similar position in the future. The school should be slapped with a heavy fine. The church that performed the ritual on a minor should also be fined heavily. Stop trying to indoctrinate kids in to the most historically violent sect of religion in the world.
+1
Gelston
09-14-2009, 04:18 AM
Why would the church be fined? Minors are baptized all the time. None of them said no, apparently. It all falls squarely on the coach, and the school district.
Sweets
09-14-2009, 07:07 AM
Why would the church be fined? Minors are baptized all the time. None of them said no, apparently. It all falls squarely on the coach, and the school district.
Ummm, no. The church is responsible as well. They did not have their parents permission either. I am quite sure they went ahead with this eyes wide open. Unless the coach provided fake permission slips or something of the sort to the church, it needs a good slap on the wrist as well.
Ker_Thwap
09-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I'd have punched the coach in the face and left it at that.
Gelston
09-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Ummm, no. The church is responsible as well. They did not have their parents permission either. I am quite sure they went ahead with this eyes wide open. Unless the coach provided fake permission slips or something of the sort to the church, it needs a good slap on the wrist as well.
A service was asked for, it was provided. I've never heard of needing parental permission to go to a church. Just like going to a PG-13 movie. These weren't a bunch of helpless elementary school children. They were in High School. Sixteen is old enough to legally get a job, and in some states, old enough to drop out of school.
AnticorRifling
09-14-2009, 10:42 AM
The church isn't to blame. The coach is.
Tsa`ah
09-14-2009, 11:26 AM
The church isn't to blame. The coach is.
While there isn't anything to be done about the church and minister in question, both are equally culpable. The minister should have recognized poor judgement and suggested the coach come back with parents or permission slips.
AnticorRifling
09-14-2009, 11:27 AM
Or he made the assumption that since it was a coach bringing them that permission had already been obtained. I could see demanding proof but I can also understand the basis for assumption.
If a minister would actually refuse to give a baptism until permission was obtained because of legal complications it would be pretty hard for me to believe that minister actually believed in what he was doing. Not to mention grown adults are baptised of their own free will its not like they dipped a 16 year olds head into a bowl in the church while he was crying and the coach was giving a thumbs up.
Seran
09-14-2009, 12:18 PM
She'll whine and bitch until someone gives her a massive load of cash, then look for some other way to get her kid traumatized in order to get paid again.
ClydeR
09-14-2009, 01:06 PM
The church isn't to blame. The coach is.
Blame? There's no blame, except on the mother. Her son was 16 years old and hadn't been baptized yet. If anybody needs to be punished, it's her.
diethx
09-14-2009, 02:35 PM
She'll whine and bitch until someone gives her a massive load of cash, then look for some other way to get her kid traumatized in order to get paid again.
Yeah, because i'm sure that she was sitting in her house night after night, hoping for someone to want to baptize her kid so she could make a few bucks.
Sweets
09-14-2009, 02:36 PM
They didn't just go to church. A religion was forced upon them. I'm Christian but I would never assume to take another child to get baptized. Neither would I, as a minister, baptize someone without express permission of their guardian.
Sweets
09-14-2009, 02:37 PM
Blame? There's no blame, except on the mother. Her son was 16 years old and hadn't been baptized yet. If anybody needs to be punished, it's her.
Idiot.
They didn't just go to church. A religion was forced upon them. I'm Christian but I would never assume to take another child to get baptized. Neither would I, as a minister, baptize someone without express permission of their guardian.
Actually they did just go to church. They boarded a bus and went to church with their coach. If you want to be mad at someone its the coach. Its not the churchs job to collect permission slips for baptisms, its their job to administer them to anyone who asks. Honestly their just lucky the coach isnt a scientologist, instead of being baptized they would be trimming Tom Cruises hedges right now.
Latrinsorm
09-14-2009, 03:00 PM
Ummm, no. The church is responsible as well. They did not have their parents permission either. I am quite sure they went ahead with this eyes wide open. Unless the coach provided fake permission slips or something of the sort to the church, it needs a good slap on the wrist as well.High school students are old enough to make their own decisions in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what this particular Baptist church defines as the decision-making age, but then again neither do you.
Isn't it ironic that you want the government to interfere in matters of religion because of a definition of "child" that is your personal belief?
landy
09-14-2009, 04:40 PM
High school students are old enough to make their own decisions in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what this particular Baptist church defines as the decision-making age, but then again neither do you.
Isn't it ironic that you want the government to interfere in matters of religion because of a definition of "child" that is your personal belief?
Luckily what is legal in the eyes of the church doesn't mean a flying fuck in the real world. See here in America our government is protected from the influence of religious idiocy, so what religious nutjobs think should be legal counts for jack and shit. And by the way, the definition of a "minor" isn't a personal belief, it's a law.
The church should be fined. Period.
Ker_Thwap
09-14-2009, 05:14 PM
Legally, the kid got wet.
Luckily what is legal in the eyes of the church doesn't mean a flying fuck in the real world. See here in America our government is protected from the influence of religious idiocy, so what religious nutjobs think should be legal counts for jack and shit. And by the way, the definition of a "minor" isn't a personal belief, it's a law.
The church should be fined. Period.
Yah those fucking nutjobs just wont stop baptizing people that specifically come to their church and request it. Keep your religion out of you're own church crazies! Also seperation of church and state was to protect the government from religion apparently! Lets ignore the fact 10 of the boys obviously werent baptized, likely because they didnt request to be! YAH! Fuck that church.
landy
09-14-2009, 06:06 PM
Actually separation of church and state was to protect the government. And I don't give a shit if a minor asks you to baptize him, you need his parents permission douche bag.
Latrinsorm
09-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Luckily what is legal in the eyes of the church doesn't mean a flying fuck in the real world. See here in America our government is protected from the influence of religious idiocy, so what religious nutjobs think should be legal counts for jack and shit. And by the way, the definition of a "minor" isn't a personal belief, it's a law.Baptism has no legal ramifications. The government has as little basis telling the church what its age of majority is as vice versa. You can't have the government separate from the church without having the church separate from the government, it's simply illogical.
The definition of "minor" is both a law and a personal belief.
landy
09-14-2009, 06:35 PM
Baptism has no legal ramifications. The government has as little basis telling the church what its age of majority is as vice versa. You can't have the government separate from the church without having the church separate from the government, it's simply illogical.
The definition of "minor" is both a law and a personal belief.
Baptism has no legal ramifications, this is true. But to perform a religious ritual on a minor, even if they are willing, without the express consent of the parent/guardian DOES have legal ramifications. The church is separate from the operation of the government, but it's activities are still subject to the laws laid down by that government.
Latrinsorm
09-14-2009, 06:38 PM
But to perform a religious ritual on a minor, even if they are willing, without the express consent of the parent/guardian DOES have legal ramifications. The church is separate from the operation of the government, but it's activities are still subject to the laws laid down by that government.Which law is being broken by the rite of baptism?
TheEschaton
09-14-2009, 06:58 PM
Technically, Latrin is right. No legal wrongs occured, as there is no law regulating baptisms that occur in a church's own property, let alone one forbidding it.
In the Catholic Church, you can get the Sacrament of Confirmation about the age of 16, in most Christian denominations, it's even younger. Confirmation is the sacrament entering a person into the Church as an adult - baptism is not even that. There is no age limit on baptism. I was baptized when I was 6 days old.
The church in question was being a little naive, granted, but baptism isn't something you have forced upon you, you kinda have to agree to it. I find many of these evangelical sects seem to naturally assume you want to be saved, and not that you're being forced by your football coach. Hell, Mormons baptize dead people without permission of the family all the time, to "save" them from the sin of dying as something other than a Mormon.
-TheE-
Actually separation of church and state was to protect the government. And I don't give a shit if a minor asks you to baptize him, you need his parents permission douche bag.
You're knee jerk reaction to act like all religious people are out to convert people is the exact same kind of stereotyping behavior exhibited in the religious zeolots you think are ruining society. Read the article the coach brought those kids into a service where many of the congregation was being baptized and some of the football players chose to participate. The church did nothing legally or morally wrong.
Seran
09-14-2009, 07:20 PM
Yeah, because i'm sure that she was sitting in her house night after night, hoping for someone to want to baptize her kid so she could make a few bucks.
You don't think the mother of the second kids who were allegedly diddled by Michael Jackson didn't spend some time concocting a scenario in which she'd get the same monetary settlement the first child got?
People do it all the time; getting themselves in situations that would result in a monetary settlement or cash generating litigation. Think about all those people who consistantly 'slip' in supermarkets year after year, the folks who stop suddenly in order to get hit from behind in a car, and best yet, the gangbanger parents who sue police departments when their criminal children are shot dead after pulling a weapon on a cop.
If our society weren't as gung-ho about suing everyone under the sun, a large part of the industry of law professionals would shrivel up and die.
landy
09-14-2009, 08:04 PM
Technically, Latrin is right. No legal wrongs occured, as there is no law regulating baptisms that occur in a church's own property, let alone one forbidding it.
In the Catholic Church, you can get the Sacrament of Confirmation about the age of 16, in most Christian denominations, it's even younger. Confirmation is the sacrament entering a person into the Church as an adult - baptism is not even that. There is no age limit on baptism. I was baptized when I was 6 days old.
The church in question was being a little naive, granted, but baptism isn't something you have forced upon you, you kinda have to agree to it. I find many of these evangelical sects seem to naturally assume you want to be saved, and not that you're being forced by your football coach. Hell, Mormons baptize dead people without permission of the family all the time, to "save" them from the sin of dying as something other than a Mormon.
-TheE-
I understand there are no "age limits" on baptism, as I was also baptized as a child and raised in the Catholic church. And the sacrament of confirmation is in fact given before you are 16, closer to 12 if I recall.
The fact that there is no law prohibiting the practice of baptism on a church's property is, of course, entirely obvious. However, the church does not operate with impunity, regardless of how sacrosanct they believe their area of worship to be. In the same way that a criminal can not legally hide in a church, an appointed member of that church may not perform religious ceremonies on a minor without consent of a parent or guardian.
Latrinsorm
09-14-2009, 09:40 PM
You don't think the mother of the second kids who were allegedly diddled by Michael Jackson didn't spend some time concocting a scenario in which she'd get the same monetary settlement the first child got?
People do it all the time; getting themselves in situations that would result in a monetary settlement or cash generating litigation. Think about all those people who consistantly 'slip' in supermarkets year after year, the folks who stop suddenly in order to get hit from behind in a car, and best yet, the gangbanger parents who sue police departments when their criminal children are shot dead after pulling a weapon on a cop.
If our society weren't as gung-ho about suing everyone under the sun, a large part of the industry of law professionals would shrivel up and die.I think the idea is that it's statistically very unlikely for a kid on a football team to get crypto-baptized, whereas Michael Jackson tried to screw every kid in a three mile radius.
In the same way that a criminal can not legally hide in a church, an appointed member of that church may not perform religious ceremonies on a minor without consent of a parent or guardian.No one is suggesting that churches are law-free zones. Your assertion that "an appointed member" etc. is what is being questioned. Can you cite any statute or other legal precedent that justifies overt trampling of the First Amendment?
diethx
09-14-2009, 09:56 PM
You don't think the mother of the second kids who were allegedly diddled by Michael Jackson didn't spend some time concocting a scenario in which she'd get the same monetary settlement the first child got?
Did you seriously just make that comparison? SERIOUSLY? Talk about grasping at straws to cover for a stupid comment...
landy
09-14-2009, 10:20 PM
No one is suggesting that churches are law-free zones. Your assertion that "an appointed member" etc. is what is being questioned. Can you cite any statute or other legal precedent that justifies overt trampling of the First Amendment?
It's not a matter of trampling the First Amendment, it's a matter of protecting minors from religious indoctrination against the will of the parent.
Latrinsorm
09-14-2009, 11:49 PM
It may be both, but it is certainly a trampling of the First Amendment. We don't even need Khariz and Eschaton to argue about this for 60 pages, it's word for word. "The government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Again I will ask, can you produce any legal citations regarding "religious indoctrination" of minors, let alone its unwitting instruments?
I am also not willing to concede the point that baptism even remotely represents religious indoctrination, but that is a secondary matter.
Celephais
09-15-2009, 12:23 AM
Just so you guys know, I'm officially baptizing every one who posts in this thread in the name of the church of the fonz... Aaaaaay.
With this blessing all uncoolness will be forgiven, and you will be allowed into the kingdom of the fonz.
Or he made the assumption that since it was a coach bringing them that permission had already been obtained. I could see demanding proof but I can also understand the basis for assumption.
If a minister would actually refuse to give a baptism until permission was obtained because of legal complications it would be pretty hard for me to believe that minister actually believed in what he was doing. Not to mention grown adults are baptised of their own free will its not like they dipped a 16 year olds head into a bowl in the church while he was crying and the coach was giving a thumbs up.
Age of majority in Kentucky is 18. Not only were they all underage, but I'm willing to bet no one asked them how old they were, either.
High school students are old enough to make their own decisions in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what this particular Baptist church defines as the decision-making age, but then again neither do you.
Isn't it ironic that you want the government to interfere in matters of religion because of a definition of "child" that is your personal belief?
18. See above.
Also, you don't think the church ought to at least raise an eyebrow at the notion of a football coach showing up with a busload of kids to get them baptised? With no paperwork or permission slips? That's normal?
Actually separation of church and state was to protect the government. And I don't give a shit if a minor asks you to baptize him, you need his parents permission douche bag.
This.
Mabus
09-15-2009, 04:13 AM
Age of majority in Kentucky is 18. Not only were they all underage, but I'm willing to bet no one asked them how old they were, either.
18. See above.
I must have missed something...
Did they get baptized or laid?
Also, you don't think the church ought to at least raise an eyebrow at the notion of a football coach showing up with a busload of kids to get them baptised? With no paperwork or permission slips? That's normal?
Paperwork and permission slips for church? You ever been in a church? I don't think I have ever heard of needing either, nor having to show ID, to go into a church.
Don't take this wrong, as I feel what the coach did was ethically wrong, and he deserves some form of penalty from the district. Fire him. Hell, try to sue him in civil court if you feel he has violated your child's civil rights (or caused other harm).
I do not see any criminal conduct in this. Of course there could always be some local ordinance, or even old state law, that he violated, but I just do not see it.
I find all organized religions as fantasy clubs, so I have no god (or dog) in this hunt. If it is was my children I would be raising a real kind of hell; one that would end up with that coach on the jobless rolls in the school district.
Celephais
09-15-2009, 04:21 AM
Did they get baptized or laid?
Once you get that holy spirit inside of you...
Paperwork and permission slips for church? You ever been in a church? I don't think I have ever heard of needing either, nor having to show ID, to go into a church.
When you're being brought there by someone from school (and not even a teacher!), then yes. In fact, whenever you go ANYWHERE off school grounds, parents are supposed to be consulted (remember "field trips"?).
If this guy had been a Muslim taking these kids to a mosque for [whatever the appropriate Islamic analog is, I don't know], I imagine there'd be a ridiculous outrage.
Being one raised in a Baptist church and being one who's been baptised, its usually common for the pastor to obtain the consent of the parents before baptising a child. Typically the child tells the parent first, then after the child and the parents meet with the pastor, the baptism takes place if the pastor feels the baptism candidate is ready.
I dont know what branch of faith this church was, but I'm thinking the pastor should have exercised more constraint.
That still does not absolve the coach from his error or his responsibility as the children's temporary guardian.
AnticorRifling
09-15-2009, 08:30 AM
There should be more name calling, it's obvious you don't care about your stance or opinion unless you name call.
Try again Gan.
Originally Posted by landy http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=997837#post997837)
Actually separation of church and state was to protect the government. And I don't give a shit if a minor asks you to baptize him, you need his parents permission douche bag.
This.
No matter how many times you quote it or say it, its still wrong. Seperation of church and state was to leave both entities independant from interference from the other not to set up some kind of wall to keep religion at bay.
You guys keep saying you need the parents permission to baptise a 16 year old like you are quoting a law. Age of majority has nothing to do with a 16 year olds ability to make a non-legal decision. Unless your planning on sueing the church for brokering an illegal contract between the minor and god I think you would be hard pressed to quote an actual law that was broken. Churchs get consent for baptism from parents because its good ethics, I seriously doubt its because they would be legally liable otherwise.
Like most people said at the start the coach is a jaggoff, the end.
Latrinsorm
09-15-2009, 11:49 AM
18. See above.The age of majority as far as the government is concerned is 18, we certainly agree. If the church has decided for totally legal religious rituals that the age of majority is different, what gives you or anyone else the right to push your beliefs on them? You talk about the coach taking the kids to a mosque, what if he had taken them to a Dunkin Donuts? Do you believe the cashiers ought to refuse service without permission slips? What if some of the parents were fervent vegans and raised their children accordingly?
Also, you don't think the church ought to at least raise an eyebrow at the notion of a football coach showing up with a busload of kids to get them baptised? With no paperwork or permission slips? That's normal?In the eyes of the church, baptism is at worst literally harmless and at best spiritually beneficial. I would be surprised if the church did raise an eyebrow at an all-pro no-con choice (from their perspective).
Sweets
09-15-2009, 02:53 PM
More name calling! It means your serious! :>
I never said that it was illegal. I don't believe there are any laws againsts what they did. I think it is irresponsible on the churches part as well as the coaches. Legally, you have nothing. In a civil court however....
Just saying. If it had been a mosque or perhaps a pagan ritual, all sorts of unhappy would be raining down. Perspective is a two way street.
I think it is irresponsible on the churches part as well as the coaches. Legally, you have nothing. In a civil court however....
Just saying. If it had been a mosque or perhaps a pagan ritual, all sorts of unhappy would be raining down. Perspective is a two way street.
I agree.
There should be more name calling, it's obvious you don't care about your stance or opinion unless you name call.
Try again Gan.
Thanks for the tip asshole.
AnticorRifling
09-16-2009, 08:12 AM
I hope you get GRIDS you sperm burper.
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