8th anniversary of 9/11

[TheEschaton]

The whole city is practically shut down.

I was 20 when it happened, now I'm 28, strange.

I don't know that I like the jingoism inherent in the phrase "Never forget."

Just some random thoughts for the day.

[hectomaner]

i was 19 when it happened. i woke up out of a heroin induced coma to my parents going fucking apeshit and showed it to me on tv. i was convinced it wasnt real. then there were some sonic booms from escort jets as the prez was being flown in/out of wright pat and i thought it was bombs.

i checked myself out shortly after. crazy times

[Celephais]

I was playing CounterStrike when it happened. Nobody wanted to play on the Terrorist side anymore.

[TheEschaton]

I actually didn't care about race issues at all before 9/11. I was, after all, raised in a blue collar white town with only white friends. It was when the federal government started detaining people of Middle Eastern descent simply for being from the middle east and being a student here, that it snapped into perspective.

I still had AOL at the time, and I checked my EMail first thing every morning - I saw a picture of the towers, but just auto-closed that stupid main page thing that came up when you opened AOL. Then I literally raced my roommate to the shower, I won, and when I came out, he was just sitting there in a towel crying. I walked into the room as the second plane crashed into the tower. That was fucked up.

[Trouble]

It's an appropriately dreary day here in DC. The Coast Guard was even stupid enough to have a training exercise in the river near the Pentagon today. Duh.

I was in Kingston Jamaica doing installation/training at the US Embassy there. I had just gotten out of the shower when I saw the first tower had already been struck. I was watching live as the second plane struck. We didn't know what to do so we went in to work anyway. It was hard to get anything done that day or the next couple.

The touching thing was that the Jamaicans held at least one candlelight vigil on the steps of the embassy while we were there. Everyone was very sympathetic during the remainder of the trip, even the Russian girls at the local nudie bar.

:nono:

[TheEschaton]

, even the Russian girls at the local nudie bar.

:nono:

Those are the opinions I would have sought out too. ;)

[Asha]

I was on a coach 6 hr trip from london, which was a normal day and when I got off all hell had broken loose. Then the second plane hit and the lady next to me started crying.

[droit]

I found out two days after the fact from a couple of elk hunters in the mountains of Wyoming. It was another two days before we were able to hike into cell phone range to find out the details--it was hands down the most intense hike of my life. I grew up in NYC, my folks were there, and I had graduated from Stuyvesant HS (literally 5 blocks from the WTC) 3 months prior; in the days following 9/11, my school was turned into a triage center and morgue. I had tangential relationships with two people who died in the attack, but my parents and friends were all alright. One of the people I was hiking with, however, lost a parent or sibling (I can't remember which).

Fucking awful.

[Beguiler]

In December 2000, I was in NYC visiting friends, and went on one of the tours of the WTC, amazing view from the top, and the whole complex was neat.

September 11th, 2001, I spent hours upon hours calling my friends in NY, when I could get a circuit, the phones just went to voicemail. Midnight I got a call from one friend who had been helping out at a Fire Department. It was three days before we heard that three young men who worked with my husband had been killed in the South Tower.

September 12th, I was reaching in my wallet for some cash, and found my ticket stub from the WTC tour, and just stared at it trying not to cry.

I went back in late November 2001 to visit the same friends, and we went to the site, smoke and flames were still rising from several areas. Crowds of people walked silently around the chain link fencing, some crying, some just numb. It's something I'll never forget.

[Liagala]

Random thought I had this morning on the way to work: Some one of these days, they're going to give this day a name and make it a national holiday. A generation or two from now, most people will be saying "Happy 9/11 Day" to each other, with big smiles and gleeful thoughts of BBQs on their day off. Only a few will actually stop to think about where this day came from, and what it means.

[Parkbandit]

September 11, 2000.. I was on top of the WTC doing the tourist thing with the wife. I didn't realize this until a year or so after 9-11-01 when I saw the date/time stamp on the giftshop photo. Fucking eerie.

September 11, 2001.. I was at the hotel I managed when we heard the news. For lunch, 5 of us went to the local blood bank and spent the next 6 hours giving blood and volunteering.

[TheEschaton]

BC is a Catholic school, we had a prayer service at noon on the plaza. Our president, a Jesuit priest, was giving the opening prayer as fighter jets scrambled overhead from Hanscom, as two of the planes took off from Logan.

[Monsoon]

I was a senior in high school. That year I was a teacher's aide for my former Chemistry teacher. We were in one of the hallways putting up a new display in one of the display cases. The halls were empty because classes were going on. As we were taking down the previous display and getting everything ready, my former US History teacher came walking by, somewhat briskly. As he passed (without stopping), he muttered "they just bombed the World Trade Center again."

It didn't stun me at first. I kept thinking about the previous "attacks" that weren't nearly as serious as 9/11 actually was. I just assumed it was something relatively minor, like another pipebomb in the parking garage under one of the towers. Besides, my US History teacher didn't say it with shock in his voice. He mentioned it in passing. It didn't alarm me.

In my next class, we were glued to the TV. And in the next class. And the next. We weren't sent home, but classes were basically pushed aside. Teachers might have tried to get some kind of lesson in, but most of the rest of the day was spent watching the news.

When I got home, I sat on the couch and turned on the news. I did this for weeks. I was fascinated and stunned. I couldn't get enough of it. I wanted to know everything. The towers collapsed. The aftermath. I just couldn't do anything else with myself. I was permanently bummed out and couldn't do anything about it.

I visited NYC in the summer of 2002 with my parents, an aunt, uncle, and cousins. We went to Ground Zero, but the views were too obstructed by fences and walls. I did get a decent glimpse though.

[Eoghain]

Down the street from BC was BU, where I heard that someone flew a plane into the Twin Towers. I laughed, thinking it was one of those little 2 man prop planes that someone obviously fucked up on and said "I bet that didn't end well..."

An hour later I was desperately trying to find out where my dad was. And my uncles. All FDNY. No phones in NY were working. Everything was busy. Couldn't reach my mom. My aunts. My uncles. 2 days later, we still had no idea, and I was morose. My mom finally called me, told me she didn't know anything. After about 48 hours, my dad was finally able to reach them. He was there, had been there, had survived, and was still there working rescue. he endured something that words cannot describe. The carnage that he spoke about with almost hollow eyes afterward was something my gay brain just can't fathom. He looked like someone who just saw hell, and realized he was lost in it.

He was working dispatch at headquarters in Brooklyn when the first plane hit. he gave the order to send everyone in "to their deaths" he recounted later, and his Catholicism enabled him to take the blame for that all onto himself. Lovely religion.

A month and roughly 40 open-bar funerals in a string of hundreds later, another plane crashed onto my hometown, a 4 block wide peninsula between jamaica bay and the atlantic, guarding the entry way to New York harbor. My father lost more friends, and was there for over 24 hours bagging dead Dominicans and Haitians. He's never been the same.

now, 8 years later, it still affects him, and thousands of others who were there. And I mean physically too. he got put on meds to try to help his lungs recover from all that shit they inhaled. It destroyed his liver function by almost 50% after a while. so he had to stop taking it. now he wakes up choking in the middle of the night, nightmares aside, because his lungs fill with this nasty mucousy shit overnight that keeps him from breathing. his back is fucked, his knee is fucked, his liver's fucked, his lungs are fucked and his soul is pretty fucked. And the worst part is that he's not alone. Half the FDNY from then wishes they were dead too.

I hate 9-11. It ruined my hometown, my home city, my family and my home. I bought a bottle of Bushmills last night so I didn't have to remember anything today.

Hold fast to the people you love, kids.

[Methais]

even the Russian girls at the local nudie bar.

:nono:

So did it pay off?

My 9/11 story is pretty boring:

I was sleeping, and my gf at the time called me to tell me the towers blew up. I don't think she knew any real details yet. I called my mom to see what was going on and she was like IT'S THOSE FUCKING RAGHEADS AGAIN!!!

I don't remember what I did after, I just remember I was still watching the news at like 3am and I played CT side on CS for a while. I do remember some douche in GS (was either Canadian or British I forgot) running his mouth about how we deserved it and how much our country sucks too.

[AnticorRifling]

I was in the command building of my unit. As soon as I got the order (less than a few minutes after the first strike) I was at the armory, got my sidearm and my briefcase and I started moving secure traffic. Then it was 36 on 12 off for a long time as everything leaving on a bird from the East coast went through my unit.

[Trouble]

So did it pay off?

It did. We were in Kingston for 3-4 weeks and were younger, better looking, and friendlier than the average client to begin with (Kingston is not normally on the tourist circuit) so even before 9/11 happened we received additional attention. Afterwards they were eager to console us and steer our minds in more pleasing directions.

It's wierd because in some ways it was one of the top trips I went on (we also went to Hedonism II on that trip), but it also featured one of the worst events I've ever experienced.

[Parkbandit]

It's wierd because in some ways it was one of the top trips I went on (we also went to Hedonism II on that trip), but it also featured one of the worst events I've ever experienced.

Like the Crying Game type of worst experiences?

http://www.ugo.com/images/galleries/hidden-identities_filmtv/6.jpg

[Trouble]

Like the Crying Game type of worst experiences?

That was our trip to Hong Kong... we had to get one of our team out of a potentially violent scenario. He was homophobic and was on the road to a rude awakening. It took us more than one look to figure out the situation ourselves, especially since we had been drinking. S/he was definitely cute at first glance.

But in all seriousness, 9/11 was the worst non-personal experience I've ever had. I think the top worst personal experience was getting open-heart surgery when I was 11.

[Sean of the Thread]

I was getting dressed for class when I turned the tv on to catch the weather and news as always before class.

I went to class. They cocksucker didn't let us leave despite numerous requests. All the malls/stores everything was shut down except the college I was attending. I said fuck it I can't concentrate on the material and got up and walked out of class.

10 minutes laters or so they closed the campus. Driving on my way home it was eerie as shit. Used to sooo many airlines/private jets and helicopters zipping the skies here and it was a blank sky.

Then I saw Airforce One being escorted low altitude right over head heading north.

Probably the oddest feeling day of my life. Everything and everyone was quiet. Reminds me of I Am Legend sort of.

[Monsoon]

Oh yeah. The quiet skies were very eerie. Not a plane for days.

[Allereli]

Oh yeah. The quiet skies were very eerie. Not a plane for days.

In DC we had regular military patrols, but not the usual take-off/landing rythm over the Potomac from the DCA approach. The river approach was done away with for about a year, and it was just strange flying in and out.

I've never been so scared in my life than when I left work and walked to my friend's place down by the State Dept.

[radamanthys]

I was a sophomore in high school. I spent the day being strong for and consoling friends.

Then I came home and played my banjo alone on my porch all night. All sorts of patriotic-type stuff.

[Sean]

I was a sophmore in college and a heavy sleeper so I slept through the 1st plane woke up late for my physics class got dressed ran out the door and there was a 20 person or so line to use the pay phone. So I found someone I knew to find out what was going on then went to the architecture building which is one of the taller buildings in the area and faced the towers and stayed there with my friends watching what was going on.

At the end of the day I realized I'd never even really attempted to call home and when my mom finally go through she was happy to hear from me but livid it took so long to get a hold of me.

[Drisco]

I was in grade 5 when it happened. We went to PEI every summer since we lived in Florida and this time we decided to stay for just the winter because none of my siblings or me have seen snow before. We were going back to Florida after the winter and continue living in FL . We started school and it was the 3rd day and I got a call from the office and was told to call my mother. She told me everything and I was pretty freaked out because I was like 10. I pulled my brother out of class and told him and we went home and watched it on the tv for the next 3 weeks.

Thinking about it now, 911 changed my life completely. If 911 hadn't of happened I would be living in Florida and graduating from there and going to University int he states. After 911 happened my parents decided to just live here on PEI because of the whole incident and the anthrax scare after that. They thought it would be safer to live here on lil old Pei. I'm glad we decided that.

[Latrinsorm]

Then I came home and played my banjo alone on my porch all night. All sorts of patriotic-type stuff.I got my first real electric amp on 9/11. I plugged it in and went out on the porch, but I didn't know any of the right songs to play. I still don't.

[radamanthys]

I got my first real electric amp on 9/11. I plugged it in and went out on the porch, but I didn't know any of the right songs to play. I still don't.

I hadn't really had time to internalize what had happened, since I was playing big brother for people all day. It took until I got home and was alone.

I had never played many of the ones I did that day. I was such a space cadet, I feel like they just sorta played themselves. There's no way to really express the raw emotion of that day- not in poetry, not in song, not in any art. Try as they might, an artist who could capture and evoke that kind of emotion would either be fabulously celebrated or killed on sight. I can't decide.

[Guarrin]

I was in college at the time, and was up to go to class when two of my friends came rushing into my room and to turn on the TV.

This was probably shortly after the first tower went down, so we were able to see the 2nd go down. I then spent the next 3 hours trying to get in touch with my friends (some of which at nyu) and family (my dad has clients in downtown manhattan) but for the most part all cell phone service was gone, and no one was at home.

Finally I got in touch with my friend who was able to talk to my family too. While everyone in my immediate circle of family and friends was fine, there was something like 50 funerals in my home town over the next few weeks.

[TheEschaton]

...and then less than a month later, the Patriot Act came, and divided this country straight in half.

[Parkbandit]

...and then less than a month later, the Patriot Act came, and divided this country straight in half.

You do realize that the Patriot Act passed the Senate by a vote of 98-1, right?

Not quite by half.

[MrTastyHead]

At least there was one sane person.

[ZeP]

Bless the men and women who ran in when all others were running out. edit: Bless those going out, too.

Bless the men and women on United 93 who showed the devil how Americans die.




Sent to me by a friend from a different board. Not my quotes but I agree.

[TheEschaton]

If al Qaeda is the devil, and we created the devil, does that make us God?

Hmmmmm.....

[ZeP]

Wanted to avoid the religious overtones in that as that's the last thing I'd like to get into with anyone. Maybe just substitue "motherfuckers" for "the devil" in the previous post.

[radamanthys]

If al Qaeda is the devil, and we created the devil, does that make us God?

Hmmmmm.....

You really think that your adherence to your own zealotry is any better than the jingoism you so detest?

At least let people remember the day without having to be bludgeoned with your dogma.

[4a6c1]

Really really odd morning today.

When I got to school this morning and walked in the lounge I took a glance at the plasma, my watch and then I stared back at the plasma like everyone else was doing in the room.

Some fucking genius at one of the beasty acronym news stations decided to do a accurate-to-the-minute replay all morning of original 9/11 news coverage. So of course me being a nervous wristwatch glancer I suddenly remembered exactly what I was doing at 8:56 eight years ago at the same moment when I saw the genuine news coverage of 9/11. And it freaked me out.

I know for a fact I wasnt the only person in the world whos mind did a loopdloop replay of where-was-I this morning but was anybody actually doing the same thing at 8:56 this morning as they were doing eight years ago??? I was.

8:56 RIP...

[TheEschaton]

My "dogma" is, simply put, a fact of the matter, as opposed to the fear mongering of idiots and charlatans.

And nothing can be separated - the minute it is, is the minute we lose perspective.

[4a6c1]

TheE's dogma is IN HIS PANTS.

[Xanator]

I was a high school freshman in Geometry class. My teacher's husband was an ex-Marine, her son was my age and heavily involved in our school's JROTC. The Colonel poked his head in the door during first block and told her she might want to turn on the television. We saw the second tower get hit. They didn't start to fall until we'd moved to our next class.

We didn't have classes that day. Some people moved from room to room according to their schedule. I stayed and talked the whole day with a few friends and my English teacher. Just a really bizarre day. I don't know what happened the day before or the day after, but that's one day that is now (and I imagine always will be) crystal clear in my mind.

I didn't have any family or friends involved, really. My uncle flies fighter jets out of Langley. He got in touch to say they were scrambled, and he spent most of the next few months in the air.

9/11/01 is one of the only times I can really remember Gemstone being pretty much shut down (when the news about Kali/Aelsidhe came out was another). Logging in was probably the last thing on a lot of people's minds, but there were a lot of people talking, making sure everyone was ok, trying to find out the status of other players they knew lived around there. Simu had a website set up--think they still do--tracking all known players in the affected areas.

I miss all the American flags. Streets and streets, every house flying one. It didn't last very long at all.

[Latrinsorm]

I miss all the American flags. Streets and streets, every house flying one. It didn't last very long at all.I appreciated the sentiment, but almost nobody knows the appropriate way to fly the flag, so it was bittersweet for me.

[Lord Orbstar]

TheE is a traitorous PoS; try to ignore his views. I am sure he is a nice elf in game, but the person behind the screen is someone, I am sure, I would detest. Just like he would me. Love of country, God, and freedom are anathema to the far left, just like love of dope, anarchy, and rainbows are anathema to the far right. That is simplified and a bit of demogoguery, but sufficient to illustrate the point.

I was at an Internal Affairs class in Sacramento with the Chief of Police and clicked on the news. I watched the second plane fly into the building live and was impotently furious all day. All the officers in class felt the same. I knew war and deployment was coming and wanted it.

[Parkbandit]

If al Qaeda is the devil, and we created the devil, does that make us God?

Hmmmmm.....

You do realize that al Qaeda formed as a result of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, right?

[Parkbandit]

My "dogma" is, simply put, a fact of the matter, as opposed to the fear mongering of idiots and charlatans.

And nothing can be separated - the minute it is, is the minute we lose perspective.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen any actual facts produced by you yet.

[Parkbandit]

TheE is a traitorous PoS; try to ignore his views. I am sure he is a nice elf in game, but the person behind the screen is someone, I am sure, I would detest. Just like he would me. Love of country, God, and freedom are anathema to the far left, just like love of dope, anarchy, and rainbows are anathema to the far right. That is simplified and a bit of demogoguery, but sufficient to illustrate the point.

I was at an Internal Affairs class in Sacramento with the Chief of Police and clicked on the news. I watched the second plane fly into the building live and was impotently furious all day. All the officers in class felt the same. I knew war and deployment was coming and wanted it.

Actually, TheE is a great guy. His views on politics are pretty much a 180 degree turn from mine.. but politics isn't everything. Before I started playing WoW with him, I pretty much had the same thoughts.. that he wouldn't be someone I could be friends with. But he's an intelligent guy (with very fucked up views) that I'm happy to have had the chance to get to know... even if it was just through a game.

[TheEschaton]

TheE is a traitorous PoS; try to ignore his views. I am sure he is a nice elf in game, but the person behind the screen is someone, I am sure, I would detest. Just like he would me. Love of country, God, and freedom are anathema to the far left, just like love of dope, anarchy, and rainbows are anathema to the far right. That is simplified and a bit of demogoguery, but sufficient to illustrate the point.

Believe it or not, I'm an immigrant who loves this country, a devout Catholic, and, oddly, I like freedom too.

And I don't smoke dope, nor believe anarchy is a valid system of government.

You got me on the rainbows though. If you guys on the right don't like rainbows, you're fucking crazy.

Oh, I also believe I could probably have a beer with you Orbstar, and talk football or hockey all day long. I grew up in a blue collar town, all my best friends are white, and before I was a frothing liberal, I was a union Dem whose best friend's father is a Teamster. I believe in the right to bear arms, even though I'm a pacifist, and I'm uneasy at best with abortion.

I was sickened on 9/11. My father worked in the WTC every Monday and Tuesday, and wasn't in those towers that day because of an offsite management retreat in Pittsburgh. He knows dozens of people who died that day. Suddenly, though, I opposed a completely illegitimate and unjustified war, and I became a rabid, frothing, traitorous boy-touching elitist liberal - even though I've yet to see anyone offer any valid reasons for said war outside of jingoistic sabre-rattling and vague fear-mongering. Since then, as I look at each issue, I find myself more and more liberal as idiots continue to push themselves more and more right, and berate me for what I see as (and can argue as) rational, reasonable positions. I suppose the old adage is true: call a man a thief enough, and he'll start stealing.

And I have NEVER played an elf. WTF. Giantman all the way, in GS.

-TheE-

[The Scholar]

Eight years ago, on 9/11, the kids had been sent off to school and my better half and I were getting ready for the rest of the day. The TV wasn't on, so it wasn't until we got into the truck that we heard anything. Back then, we listened to Mancow (A Q101 radio shockjockey who enjoyed having the occasional madness on the station) so when we first heard it, we thought he was making it up. We talked about what poor taste it was. After 10 minutes of him seeming to be serious, we decided to change the station. It was around then that the second plane hit. We pulled over. We never did get to where we were going. I drove past a firehouse who's flag was displayed improperly and had the random thought that if anyone should have it up correctly, it should be them. I spent the rest of the day watching the news and trying to get a hold of friends and family in New York. I remember it being a very long day.

[Asha]

Actually, TheE is a great guy. His views on politics are pretty much a 180 degree turn from mine.. but politics isn't everything. Before I started playing WoW with him, I pretty much had the same thoughts.. that he wouldn't be someone I could be friends with. But he's an intelligent guy (with very fucked up views) that I'm happy to have had the chance to get to know... even if it was just through a game.

Breath of fresh air, that.
A lot of people I know can't separate people from their politics.

[CrystalTears]

I was working in Pfizer's legal department as a temp when one of the lawyers walked out of his office and said rather matter-of-factly that a plane just hit one of the twin towers. We all just glanced at each other than tried to find a news station online to hear what was going on. We spent the entire day watching the news in the conference room and then were sent home early.

It was a very emotional day and it still makes my heart stop remembering those towers falling. It still makes me sad when I drive by NY and not see those towers in the sky.

[CrystalTears]

Believe it or not, I'm an immigrant who loves this country, a devout Catholic, and, oddly, I like freedom too.

And I don't smoke dope, nor believe anarchy is a valid system of government.

etc.
Meh, I wouldn't give much weight to what Orbster has to say. Someone who considers their sibling a coward for not following the same militant footsteps as him isn't that great of a guy, IMO.

[Asha]

And that wraps Orb up pretty tightly. Nice.

[Methais]

You got me on the rainbows though. If you guys on the right don't like rainbows, you're fucking crazy.

Where's Bigworm's avatar when you need it?

[Asha]

I'm still seein it. Oh God I'm still seein it.

[Daniel]

I was on a rifle range at Ft. Knox Kentucky.


<---Bleeding heart liberal

[Tsa`ah]

TheE is a traitorous PoS; try to ignore his views. I am sure he is a nice elf in game, but the person behind the screen is someone, I am sure, I would detest. Just like he would me. Love of country, God, and freedom are anathema to the far left, just like love of dope, anarchy, and rainbows are anathema to the far right. That is simplified and a bit of demogoguery, but sufficient to illustrate the point.

I was at an Internal Affairs class in Sacramento with the Chief of Police and clicked on the news. I watched the second plane fly into the building live and was impotently furious all day. All the officers in class felt the same. I knew war and deployment was coming and wanted it.

You're a fucking idiot.

[Delias]

I was 19, and was visiting my family in chicago. I had been living on the CT side of long island sound, right off the beach. My girlfriend (now wife) was still there, so naturally, when my sister woke me to tell me the world was ending (her exact words), I tried immediately to call my woman... of course, all lines were busy. I just remember knowing she was probably ok, but still being crushed by fear, and when I thought about everyone who was actually there or had family in the building, or the brave and dutiful who went into that destruction to save as many as they could with no assurances that they would survive the effort... I don't have the words. The weight is threatens to crush your heart, and I didn't even lose anyone in that attack. What I lost that day was faith in the ability of our government to keep us safe, and seeing the results of faith taken too far, gave up any form of religion. Nothing but science and humanity left for me to believe in. I read everyone's post before posting this, and just want to tell those of you who are more profoundly and intimately affected than I was how sorry I am for your losses.

[The Ponzzz]

I called in sick that day, had a horrible stomach ache. My girlfriend at the time was sleeping as well, as she didn't need to be anymore till later in the day. Our phone kept ringing off the hook, she finally got up and answered it to hear a frantic friend telling her to turn on the news.

I decided that my stomach wasn't nearly as bad as the news we just heard and went to work to keep myself distracted. I remember being scared for awhile.

[Tsa`ah]

8th anniversary of 9/11 09-12-2009 05:04 PM Irony

With such a grand view of my lower intestinal tract ... I'm surprised you were able to spell the word correctly.

[Tisket]

I was alone and sleeping. My clock-radio went off and I too thought it was a joke by the usual on air personalities. I switched it off and got up to get ready for school and turned on the TV.

I remember covering my mouth and dropping to my knees when I realized what was happening. Then, I don't know, it just seemed natural to pray for the people trapped inside. I've never prayed so hard in my life.

And it's easy in hindsight to make it about nationalism or race or whatever but it had nothing to do with any of that. It was just about all those humans trapped, dead and dying.

I never did make it to school.

[Androidpk]

If al Qaeda is the devil, and we created the devil, does that make us God?

Hmmmmm.....

I'd like to see some concrete evidence.

[Dwarven Empath]

It will all pass in time.

In the 40's Americans never thought they would visit Japan. Guess what?

They do.

[Xanator]

It will all pass in time.

In the 40's Americans never thought they would visit Japan. Guess what?

They do.

Yeah, but only after the imposition of an American-drafted democratic constitution and a seven-year Allied occupation.

...

That said, Japan's interests were mostly territorial/expansionist, whereas the problem you face in the Middle East is extremism as part of an already widespread religion that is the world's fastest-growing. These people aren't being told to hate us by their government, but by their god. There's a difference.

[Androidpk]

The majority of people practicing islam aren't extremists though.

[Daniel]

Yeah, but only after the imposition of an American-drafted democratic constitution and a seven-year Allied occupation.

...

That said, Japan's interests were mostly territorial/expansionist, whereas the problem you face in the Middle East is extremism as part of an already widespread religion that is the world's fastest-growing. These people aren't being told to hate us by their government, but by their god. There's a difference.

Which implies, what exactly?

[Xanator]

Which implies, what exactly?

The first part was a joke, but not unworthy of a mention.

The second part ("That said...") is that hatred of America by the Japanese was state-sponsored hatred. As soon as the state fell, the hatred was easily stamped out and replaced. The failure or success of a government really has no bearing on the outcome of this conflict, as it isn't nationalism but their religion that's causing a number of these people to take up arms against us. We ousted Saddam Hussein. We are yet to oust Islam/radical Islam.

[TheEschaton]

I'm pretty sure both Christianity and Hinduism also say you have to hate infidels. That being said, we don't consider these religions per se harmful, as we expect their adherents to overcome what books thousands of years old say.

This either means: 1) you don't believe in the Muslim people enough to overcome the idiotic parts of their scripture, 2) you somehow believe Islam somehow has more strenuous requirements which cannot be broken as easily.

Seeing as the majority of Muslims live and co-exist peacefully (and indeed did so until evicted from Europe by Christians) with non-Muslims, and thus defeat the second proposition, it seems you may believe in the former (idiotic) belief.

-TheE-

[Tolwynn]

And yet, as much as you wish to spin it E, how many civilians, foreign or otherwise have Hindu terrorists killed? How much damage to the world economy have Hindu terrorists perpetuated as compared to those who claim to support Islam?

[TheEschaton]

Hindu terrorists have killed tens of thousands, actually, it's just that you never hear about it on the news since it all happens in Asia. ;)

As for "the damage it causes to the world economy," I didn't realize terrorism was worse when it makes us lose money. Your point is wholly irrelevant as to the point I'm trying to make: just because Islam, interpreted in one very minority view, could advocate violence against non-Muslims, does not mean such a view cannot be (largely) overcome by its adherents.

[Tolwynn]

If that view can largely be overcome, then frame the world today by that. Why are terror attacks in the name of Islam perpetuated against Muslim and non-Muslim alike so frequently? Why do Islamic religious leaders and lawmakers not only fail to rail against such acts, but in many cases tacitly or actively support them?

[Delias]

I think the problem is one of education, to be honest. Now, I couldn't say for certain, since I have never been to the middle east.... but I have been to ridiculous gospel churches in the city, and it seems to me that the more fervent the belief, the stronger the aversion to books, math, and science... you know, except whichever book is the one god wrote stuff in. Educating people about the observable world and teaching them critical thinking skills seems like it cuts down on religious fanaticism. Shrug. Just my opinion. Didn't really want to get drawn into a debate on religion in a remembrance thread, but well, here we are.

[Daniel]

If that view can largely be overcome, then frame the world today by that. Why are terror attacks in the name of Islam perpetuated against Muslim and non-Muslim alike so frequently? Why do Islamic religious leaders and lawmakers not only fail to rail against such acts, but in many cases tacitly or actively support them?

uh.

You do realize that plenty of groups, of all religions, commit terrorist attacks right? You do not know that we have many many allies from Muslim countries that support us and rail against extremism?

Hell, do you even remember that prior to 9\11 the last war we fought as a nation was to protect Muslims from Christian aggressors commiting Genocide?

Please, get your head out of your ass.

[Daniel]

The first part was a joke, but not unworthy of a mention.

The second part ("That said...") is that hatred of America by the Japanese was state-sponsored hatred. As soon as the state fell, the hatred was easily stamped out and replaced. The failure or success of a government really has no bearing on the outcome of this conflict, as it isn't nationalism but their religion that's causing a number of these people to take up arms against us. We ousted Saddam Hussein. We are yet to oust Islam/radical Islam.


You do realize that the Japanese "state" was their ancient culture, correct? You do realize that the Japanese believed in their cause so much that they were able to employ entire units of "kamikazes", right?

You do realize that the problems we had in Iraq weren't religious but cultural, and that many of our allies and moderators were religious leaders and belonged to religious groups, correct? You do realize that the Republican Guard and other groups that made our life difficult in Iraq were secular in nature, right?

Life is not as simple as you make it out to be.

[Daniel]

I think the problem is one of education, to be honest. Now, I couldn't say for certain, since I have never been to the middle east.... but I have been to ridiculous gospel churches in the city, and it seems to me that the more fervent the belief, the stronger the aversion to books, math, and science... you know, except whichever book is the one god wrote stuff in. Educating people about the observable world and teaching them critical thinking skills seems like it cuts down on religious fanaticism. Shrug. Just my opinion. Didn't really want to get drawn into a debate on religion in a remembrance thread, but well, here we are.

Middle Eastern and South Asian people take education very seriously for the most part.

[Delias]

Middle Eastern and South Asian people take education very seriously for the most part.

I suppose I'll have to take your word for it, but I would think that, being so educated, they would learn to move forward and leave the past (you know, constant bloodshed, war, and anger) behind them.

[Methais]

Middle Eastern and South Asian people take education very seriously for the most part.

http://www.hitchaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/jap2.jpg

[Androidpk]

I suppose I'll have to take your word for it, but I would think that, being so educated, they would learn to move forward and leave the past (you know, constant bloodshed, war, and anger) behind them.

Humanity as a whole needs to learn those things.

[Delias]

Humanity as a whole needs to learn those things.

Agreed.

[Latrinsorm]

These people aren't being told to hate us by their government, but by their god."These people" are in fact being told to hate us by people claiming to represent the word of Allah, not by Allah himself.
I suppose I'll have to take your word for it, but I would think that, being so educated, they would learn to move forward and leave the past (you know, constant bloodshed, war, and anger) behind them.I think it would be worth your while to research the history of Islam.

[Delias]

I think it would be worth your while to research the history of Islam.

Well, I disagree. I personally don't give a shit about anyone's religion as long as it doesn't interfere with societal progress, and I'm not going to make the time to find out about one history of an invisible man in the sky over another. I was raised in christian faith, and I abandoned that even before I abandoned the idea of god altogether.

I prefer Carlin's Commandments...thou shalt always be honest and faithful, thou shalt try awfully damn hard not to kill anybody, and thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[radamanthys]

"These people" are in fact being told to hate us by people claiming to represent the word of Allah, not by Allah himself.I think it would be worth your while to research the history of Islam.

I'm curious what the difference is. Wasn't Mohammed part of those 'people claiming to represent the word of Allah'? What is a religion other than a bunch of people telling you what God's thinking?

Mind you, I'm differentiating from spirituality, faith, or belief. Religion, I'm talking about- the organized form of the aforementioned triad.

[Killer Kitten]

The scariest moment was two days later. We were asleep and I was awakened by a bright flash, it lit up our bedroom like daylight. My first thought was "Oh shit the crazy bastards nuked us." My next thought concerned how long we had until the blast wave hit us, I remember trying to calculate how fast it would travel from Manhattan to Nassau County.

I grabbed Mike's arm to shake him awake and that's when the thunder hit and I realized it was just a storm. Mike said, "Why were you waking me?" I told him because I knew he'd save us somehow.

He told me that if we were ever nuked and it looked like he was going to sleep through the being burned alive part I should just let him sleep. Like I'd ever be vaporized alone when I could wake him up to share the experience!

[Gelston]

I was a senior in High School. I had just DEPed into the Marines like a month before. I was watching the first tower on fire when I saw the second plane hit, then I had to go to school because I couldn't be absent anymore or I'd fail. On my drive to school I drove in silence, just thinking something big was going to happen. (At this time I didn't think the towers were going to collapse and I thought the planes were empty cargo planes or something). When I got to school none of our teacher would let us watch the news, but I remember one coming in and saying the Pentagon had just gotten hit, and another plane crashed somewhere else.

I just had the thought that I was going to be yanked out of school and sent to Basic right away. I thought we were at war. 17 year olds have crazy minds.

[TheEschaton]

If that view can largely be overcome, then frame the world today by that. Why are terror attacks in the name of Islam perpetuated against Muslim and non-Muslim alike so frequently? Why do Islamic religious leaders and lawmakers not only fail to rail against such acts, but in many cases tacitly or actively support them?

Again, Muslim religious leaders and lawmakers DO rail against such acts, it's just that you never hear it because that's not the story that sells. I immigrated here from India, which has the second largest Muslim population in the world, and I have known quite a few Muslims in my day, and if you simply open your eyes, you will see that the majority of Muslims, lawmakers and leaders alike, do not condone terrorism.

Islam is the newest of the world religions, Muhammed died in the 630s, and 1400 years later, the religion is having problems with fanatics. If you consider that Christianity held THE CRUSADES for a period of about 300 years, from 1100 to 1400 after the death of Jesus, you will notice that this isn't an unusual thing. Hell, consider this: Christianity resorted to barbarism despite being the religion of the powerful and the rich; Islam, as it stands today, is largely the religion of the poor and disenfranchised, and they are far more restrained than Christians ever were in the same time frame of their religion.

-TheE-

[Delias]

I think we can all agree that it would have been better, had their actually been a god, for him to write "Thou shalt not split the atom" in fire on the side of the largest mountain he could find.

[Hulkein]

he gave the order to send everyone in "to their deaths" he recounted later, and his Catholicism enabled him to take the blame for that all onto himself. Lovely religion.

wtf???

[Latrinsorm]

Well, I disagree. I personally don't give a shit about anyone's religion as long as it doesn't interfere with societal progress, and I'm not going to make the time to find out about one history of an invisible man in the sky over another.I suggested it because Islam has contributed more to societal progress than any other religion, philosophy, or belief. There would have been no European Renaissance without Islam, no Isaac Newton (or Leibniz). It's easy to see how one would be better off in 650 Jerusalem than 1944 Berlin or 1992 LA, especially as a member of a minority.
I'm curious what the difference is. Wasn't Mohammed part of those 'people claiming to represent the word of Allah'? What is a religion other than a bunch of people telling you what God's thinking?The characterization I responded to serves to marginalize "religious" people in the minds of those who believe themselves non-religious, while the second reveals that the two groups are not as dissimilar as appearances suggest.

[Xanator]

Hindu terrorists have killed tens of thousands, actually, it's just that you never hear about it on the news since it all happens in Asia. ;)

Thank you for making my point.

[Xanator]

You do realize that the Japanese "state" was their ancient culture, correct? You do realize that the Japanese believed in their cause so much that they were able to employ entire units of "kamikazes", right?

You do realize that the problems we had in Iraq weren't religious but cultural, and that many of our allies and moderators were religious leaders and belonged to religious groups, correct? You do realize that the Republican Guard and other groups that made our life difficult in Iraq were secular in nature, right?

Life is not as simple as you make it out to be.

Nothing intrinsic in Japanese culture telling its people to kill non-Japanese on the basis of their non-Japaneseness. Japan attacking China and subsequently casting its lot in with the other Axis powers was really the culmination of a 50-year period of expansion. Kamikaze attacks were not practiced before (or after) WWII by the Japanese. Yes, there was nationalist pride involved, but it was fueled by a highly-effective propaganda machine. I think the whole bushido connection you're trying to make here is a little bit overblown. Japan's ancient culture was one of feudalism, while the Japan we fought in WWII was governed by a constitutional monarchy established in the late-1800s. Please, please, please learn your history before you attempt to comment on it. We've been over this before.

Japan was also one nation, and you'll notice that after that incarnation of that nation ceased to exist, the kamikaze attacks stopped. Iraq is another poor example, because groups like the Republican Guard and Fedayeen were extensions of the state, and the state was being invaded. There is no one place we bomb or person we accept a surrender from to guarantee extremist attacks against us will stop.

[TheEschaton]

Your point was that Hindus didn't commit terrorism, I said that was false.

You realize that just because you don't hear about things, doesn't mean they didn't happen, right?

[Xanator]

Your point was that Hindus didn't commit terrorism, I said that was false.

You realize that just because you don't hear about things, doesn't mean they didn't happen, right?

No, my point was that comparing WWII Japan to the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 wasn't accurate. My reasoning was that Japan was involved in WWII for political/expansionist reasons, and its people inspired to hate us for nationalist reasons, but that the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 and their cohorts are more difficult to stop because they're motivated by their extremist interpretation of their religion. I didn't say anything about any other religious groups (I think this has a lot to do with your and Daniel's opinions of my opinions--you apparently think I'm responsible for the things that other people say), but when YOU said that Hinduism and Christianity also promoted terrorism, and for centuries at that... well, it sort of made my point.

With Japan, you killed the snake by lopping off its head. In the war on terror, where's the head?

[Latrinsorm]

My reasoning was that Japan was involved in WWII for political/expansionist reasons, and its people inspired to hate us for nationalist reasons, but that the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 and their cohorts are more difficult to stop because they're motivated by their extremist interpretation of their religion.It's worth pointing out that nationalism and the extremist interpretation you speak of are fundamentally the same. Resentment against the United States did not begin in 1776, and there were plenty of Muslims (real and alleged) around then.
With Japan, you killed the snake by lopping off its head. In the war on terror, where's the head?Given that the emperor was the divinity for Japan, the "head" would be Allah. Nietzsche had some knife fights with Jehovah, maybe he has some ideas.

[Xanator]

You do realize that the Japanese "state" was their ancient culture, correct? You do realize that the Japanese believed in their cause so much that they were able to employ entire units of "kamikazes", right?

You do realize that the problems we had in Iraq weren't religious but cultural, and that many of our allies and moderators were religious leaders and belonged to religious groups, correct? You do realize that the Republican Guard and other groups that made our life difficult in Iraq were secular in nature, right?

Life is not as simple as you make it out to be.

And I guess I missed this before, but "The problems we had in Iraq weren't religious but cultural"? A people's system of beliefs is extremely important to its culture, much moreso than its government (the "state") is. Even though many of us may not personally subscribe to it, Christianity is by far the largest religion in America. Christianity is therefore part of the American culture. It's NOT (supposed to be) mandated by the state, but the opposite is true in some nations.

But for you to say that religion and culture are somehow separate is frankly absurd.

[Xanator]

It's worth pointing out that nationalism and the extremist interpretation you speak of are fundamentally the same. Resentment against the United States did not begin in 1776, and there were plenty of Muslims (real and alleged) around then.

On the level of passion, or I guess that they're two reasons for people to commit violence on one another, sure? The major difference between the two is that nationalism disappears as soon as there's no state to be proud of, but it's hard to demolish a system of beliefs unless you can somehow produce indisputable evidence to refute it.

[Daniel]

I refuse to believe Xanator can be this stupid.

Nationalism has been and continues to be a main driving factor for violence and persecution around the world, even after the dissolution of a state or even before the actual existence of one. Look at the problems in Kurdistan (not a state) in Iraq and the impact it has had on the prosecution of our war there.

Culture and Religion can and usually are mixed. That does not mean that culture, vice religion, can be a driving factor in conflict. The same goes for nationalism. Look at the World Wars if you're really having a problem grasping the conflict. Guaranteed we destroyed more in our nationalistic wars than are being destroyed by "religious fanatics" but hey, that's just a minor detail right?

[Xanator]

I refuse to believe Xanator can be this stupid.

Hahahaha. Surprise! You've missed the point again.


Nationalism has been and continues to be a main driving factor for violence and persecution around the world, even after the dissolution of a state or even before the actual existence of one. Look at the problems in Kurdistan (not a state) in Iraq and the impact it has had on the prosecution of our war there.

You're right! Nationalism has been and continues to be a main driving so forth. The statement I made in response to yours was that once the militant state of Japan was unseated, the kamikaze fighters stopped dropping from the sky. The conflict we're currently involved in is different. Terror networks such as al-Qaeda are multinational organizations. They're not characterized by any extreme love of their state/nation. You can't force the submission of, say, Afghanistan or Iraq, and expect the attacks to stop. It's completely and totally different.

I never once said that by defeating Japan, America put an end to all nationalist violence. I said that America was able to end that conflict by defeating Japan BECAUSE that violence was nationalist violence, not ethno-socio-cultural-religious violence. Don't accuse me of being stupid because you can't make the distinction.


Culture and Religion can and usually are mixed. That does not mean that culture, vice religion, can be a driving factor in conflict. The same goes for nationalism. Look at the World Wars if you're really having a problem grasping the conflict.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, that's actually exactly what I said. Except there really is no such thing as a conflict inspired by culture separate from religion, because religion is an essential part of culture. Even in the Soviet Union, where religion was discouraged and at one point persecuted--that was a part of Soviet culture. If you disagree so strongly, I'd love to hear your definition of "culture."


Guaranteed we destroyed more in our nationalistic wars than are being destroyed by "religious fanatics" but hey, that's just a minor detail right?

Yes, you're right. Granted, I never once said anything to the contrary. I assume you're throwing this out there because you think I'm a sabre-rattling war hawk. I'm not, and you're ignorant.

[Latrinsorm]

On the level of passion, or I guess that they're two reasons for people to commit violence on one another, sure?No, in the strict sense of (fervently) supporting a political unit. Countries are not the political units in question, the House of Islam is.

[Daniel]

Hahahaha. Surprise! You've missed the point again.



You're right! Nationalism has been and continues to be a main driving so forth. The statement I made in response to yours was that once the militant state of Japan was unseated, the kamikaze fighters stopped dropping from the sky. The conflict we're currently involved in is different. Terror networks such as al-Qaeda are multinational organizations. They're not characterized by any extreme love of their state/nation. You can't force the submission of, say, Afghanistan or Iraq, and expect the attacks to stop. It's completely and totally different.

I never once said that by defeating Japan, America put an end to all nationalist violence. I said that America was able to end that conflict by defeating Japan BECAUSE that violence was nationalist violence, not ethno-socio-cultural-religious violence. Don't accuse me of being stupid because you can't make the distinction.



Unfortunately you make a point that bares no relevance to the actual wars we are fighting. The insurgents in Iraq, as you mentioned before, were secular organizations along with some who were religious, just as our allies were. The Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan are bound by their Pashtun heritage.

AQ may be a "multinational corporation" but they still need some place secured and isolated to train their fighters and harbor their supporters. Who do you think they turn to? "Muslims" or people of sympathetic tribes?

The Pashtoons are receptive to AQI in Pakistan and Afghanistan because they worked together and intermarried in the 80's while Arabs were fighting the Russians. Meanwhile, Tajiks Balochs, Punjabis, Sinds, and various other groups do not support them, at all. In fact, they kill them if at all possible, despite sharing the same state and the same religion. How then do you account for that if not cultural? You can't. So, if you think these conflicts are not cultural then you aren't paying attention.


Period.


So if it's not Iraq, and It's not Afghanistan and It's not Pakistan, which "conflict" are you speaking about?





Yeah, as far as I can tell, that's actually exactly what I said. Except there really is no such thing as a conflict inspired by culture separate from religion, because religion is an essential part of culture. Even in the Soviet Union, where religion was discouraged and at one point persecuted--that was a part of Soviet culture. If you disagree so strongly, I'd love to hear your definition of "culture."


This is not true at all. How then do you describe conflicts between different cultural groups within the same religion and within the same country?

[Xanator]

So, if you think these conflicts are not cultural then you aren't paying attention.


Period.

READ, my man. I said these conflicts were religious, which is contained under the umbrella of "culture" by my own definition which I've reiterated here a number of times. It's funny that you accuse me of not paying attention, when clearly you're not.



So if it's not Iraq, and It's not Afghanistan and It's not Pakistan, which "conflict" are you speaking about?

WWII's Pacific theater, which you would've known if you were paying attention.



This is not true at all. How then do you describe conflicts between different cultural groups within the same religion and within the same country?

I will admit to not being awfully well-versed in the many differences between the various socio-ethnic groups you're talking about. A quick little bit of research on my part did suggest that they are diverse in their religion (though predominantly Muslim), and scattered across multiple countries. I'd have to know more about the conflict in question to put one of your nice labels on it for you. My research on the very surface seems to suggest that there are inter-cultural conflicts here (Punjabi Muslims hate Punjabi Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs), and that the Punjabi province in Pakistan is pro-Jihad, and is therefore opposed by the anti-Jihad, anti-Islamabad Baluch. I do get the sense that a lot of the Baluch want a state independent of Pakistan. I don't really know the first thing about it, though, so I won't pretend I do.

But if you can point me to some specific examples of what you mentioned, then I guess I'd recognize them as conflicts between different cultural groups within the same religion and within the same country.

[Daniel]

READ, my man. I said these conflicts were religious, which is contained under the umbrella of "culture" by my own definition which I've reiterated here a number of times. It's funny that you accuse me of not paying attention, when clearly you're not.


actually you tried to say that culture was religion which would be false. But let's run with your argument for now. If religion is under the umbrella of culture, meaning that influences cultural bonds and identities you would have to include the nation as another influencing factor of culture. Therefore, it is impossible to disaggregate the two when trying to determine the tenacity of an adversary. As the culture will persist even if you eliminate the influencing factors. What you are failing to realize is that the absence of a state function is important because it is the mechanism through which the group projects power. This is an important distinction because if we had followed your reason through we would have identified the problem as religion, when in actuality it's not. The problem is that they do not operate through a formal entity but rather a clandestine one similar to a transnational criminal operation.

[Xanator]

actually you tried to say that culture was religion which would be false. But let's run with your argument for now. If religion is under the umbrella of culture, meaning that influences cultural bonds and identities you would have to include the nation as another influencing factor of culture. Therefore, it is impossible to disaggregate the two when trying to determine the tenacity of an adversary. As the culture will persist even if you eliminate the influencing factors. What you are failing to realize is that the absence of a state function is important because it is the mechanism through which the group projects power. This is an important distinction because if we had followed your reason through we would have identified the problem as religion, when in actuality it's not. The problem is that they do not operate through a formal entity but rather a clandestine one similar to a transnational criminal operation.

I don't find arguing semantics with you very exciting, because you have a tentative grasp of reality at best. I don't disagree that the state influences culture. I have only tried to make the point that there is no state America can attack/destroy (though we've tried) that will put a decisive end to the terrorist violence being leveled against us. Repeatedly.

What you've done is:
a) misinterpret history
b) generalize cultural conflicts
c) offer a roundabout explanation of the influence of state on culture, which I've given no indication I disagree with

The notion that the US could somehow entirely wipe out al-Qaeda is not the same as the US wiping out a state. There is no state the US can wipe out that will completely destroy al-Qaeda. I haven't seen you disagree with this at all, you've just tried to disseminate it across broad issues to the point it becomes completely unrecognizable.

You're the one who wanted to segregate religion and culture, and state and culture, earlier in the discussion. You've backtracked on that, if hypothetically, to make a greater point that is further backtracking on your part. I'm having a lot of trouble following you, and I promise it isn't because you're over my head.

edit: reading your first sentence again, I didn't say religion was culture. I said religion was an invaluable part of culture. I gave specific examples, including a culture in which religion was discouraged/prosecuted. You're confusing yourself again.

[Daniel]

I don't find arguing semantics with you very exciting, because you have a tentative grasp of reality at best. I don't disagree that the state influences culture. I have only tried to make the point that there is no state America can attack/destroy (though we've tried) that will put a decisive end to the terrorist violence being leveled against us. Repeatedly.


Actually. Your point was:



I said that America was able to end that conflict by defeating Japan BECAUSE that violence was nationalist violence, not ethno-socio-cultural-religious violence


the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 and their cohorts are more difficult to stop because they're motivated by their extremist interpretation of their religion.

In the former, you stated "repeatedly" that the Japanese did not care about their state after it was destroyed and the conflict ended because they no longer had a reason to fight (I.e. no nation-state to identify with). That would be incorrect.

In the latter, you seem to make a correlation between extremism and how\or why they are difficult to stop. Their religion and\or their relative extremism does not influence, at all, their ability to counter act our efforts to defeat them.


Let me put it into simple terms:

Your premise is flawed and you jumping all over the map is not helping. You can not distinguish between the nation and culture and I challenge you to try in today's world. Therefore it is wrong to say that one conflict is harder to prosecute than another because one subscribes to a religion and not a nation state. This is because the nation, or more appropriately the cultural identification of people is an intrinsic factor in which side they take.

Furthermore, to state that the problem we have with "terrorists" is due to their religion is not accurate.

As I said before, this is important to acknowledge because it leads us down a rabbit hole of trying to determine why Islam, insomore than any other religion, is inclined to hate or fight against us. The problem is not the religion, the problem is our socio-economic relations with these regions and groups.

[Xanator]

Never said the Japanese people lost all pride in the nation of Japan after it was defeated in WWII, but when the militant state which had waged war was destroyed, the cause to fight was also gone. A strongly America-influenced constitution that made a number of concessions to allow for some degree of cultural continuity was put into effect, and the Japanese went on with their lives in their now-parliamentary state. Do you know a great national secret that the rest of us aren't savvy to, or is this explanation for the end of Japanese WWII aggression not deep and fulfilling enough to satisfy your keen intellect?


I said that America was able to end that conflict by defeating Japan BECAUSE that violence was nationalist violence, not ethno-socio-cultural-religious violence

In this quote, I didn't state repeatedly that the Japanese no longer cared about their state. I said their hostilities towards us stopped because they weren't motivated to fight by a set of "ethno-socio-cultural-religious" reasons. I don't personally see how you can read that quote and infer anything else, but once again, you found a way.


the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 and their cohorts are more difficult to stop because they're motivated by their extremist interpretation of their religion.

And I'll continue to stand by this, as it is also in the spirit of what I'm trying to convey to you here. It's harder to do away with an aggressor's set of beliefs than it is to do away with the government ruling over the nation in which an aggressor lives, telling the aggressor to take up arms. I can concede that the religious beliefs aren't the only ones that factor into this, but you seem completely averse to even considering them remote parts of the equation.

About jumping all over the map:


The failure or success of a government really has no bearing on the outcome of this conflict, as it isn't nationalism but their religion that's causing a number of these people to take up arms against us. We ousted Saddam Hussein. We are yet to oust Islam/radical Islam.


Japan was also one nation, and you'll notice that after that incarnation of that nation ceased to exist, the kamikaze attacks stopped. Iraq is another poor example, because groups like the Republican Guard and Fedayeen were extensions of the state, and the state was being invaded. There is no one place we bomb or person we accept a surrender from to guarantee extremist attacks against us will stop.


With Japan, you killed the snake by lopping off its head. In the war on terror, where's the head?


The major difference between the two is that nationalism disappears as soon as there's no state to be proud of, but it's hard to demolish a system of beliefs unless you can somehow produce indisputable evidence to refute it.


The statement I made in response to yours was that once the militant state of Japan was unseated, the kamikaze fighters stopped dropping from the sky. The conflict we're currently involved in is different. Terror networks such as al-Qaeda are multinational organizations. They're not characterized by any extreme love of their state/nation. You can't force the submission of, say, Afghanistan or Iraq, and expect the attacks to stop. It's completely and totally different.


I never once said that by defeating Japan, America put an end to all nationalist violence. I said that America was able to end that conflict by defeating Japan BECAUSE that violence was nationalist violence, not ethno-socio-cultural-religious violence. Don't accuse me of being stupid because you can't make the distinction.

Since I no longer trust you to interpret anything on your own, that was me saying the exact same thing and never straying from my original point over a long series of posts. In the meantime, you were trying to make it sound like I was saying something completely different and/or changing my story (whether this was by intent or ignorance, I can't fairly say).

Also, please don't force your blanket-statement manner of speech on me. There are a number of different kinds of terrorism, and not all terrorists are Middle Eastern Muslims. I am perfectly aware of this. You should try not making such a concerted effort to paint me as a gun-totin' narrow-minded Reeeepublican by considering the context in which the world "terrorist" has been used in this thread about 9/11, you clever boy.

[Daniel]

Never said the Japanese people lost all pride in the nation of Japan after it was defeated in WWII, but when the militant state which had waged war was destroyed, the cause to fight was also gone.

The point is that the Japanese people were the state and that the state was an extension of the people. You can not separate the two. To say that they lost their nationalist appeal would be to say that they lost their pride in themselves. Please try and keep up. I know all this is difficult to fit into your narrow world view.

[Xanator]

The point is that the Japanese people were the state and that the state was an extension of the people. You can not separate the two. To say that they lost their nationalist appeal would be to say that they lost their pride in themselves. Please try and keep up. I know all this is difficult to fit into your narrow world view.

Ok, buddy. In my best estimation, to say they lost all their cultural pride would be to say that they lost their pride in themselves. I'm sure the Japanese people still have nationalist pride, but the government they were so fervently supporting as a result of spike in their nationalist pride is no longer militant. The people's nationalist pride can therefore still exist, but for a nation that has changed quite a bit since 1945 and is now focused on other things than conquest.

Once again, if that's too simple an explanation, do tell me what exactly caused the Japanese forces to lay down their arms. Or are they secretly plotting their revenge to this day?

I would also have to say that my world view is apparently much broader than yours, as I'm perfectly willing to consider more than one side of an issue, and you bristle and fling personal attacks when faced with reason. Here I was thinking you'd realized how much of an ass you sounded in this thread and given up. Siiiiigh.

[Daniel]

Ok, buddy. In my best estimation, to say they lost all their cultural pride would be to say that they lost their pride in themselves. I'm sure the Japanese people still have nationalist pride, but the government they were so fervently supporting as a result of spike in their nationalist pride is no longer militant. The people's nationalist pride can therefore still exist, but for a nation that has changed quite a bit since 1945 and is now focused on other things than conquest.

Once again, if that's too simple an explanation, do tell me what exactly caused the Japanese forces to lay down their arms. Or are they secretly plotting their revenge to this day?

I would also have to say that my world view is apparently much broader than yours, as I'm perfectly willing to consider more than one side of an issue, and you bristle and fling personal attacks when faced with reason. Here I was thinking you'd realized how much of an ass you sounded in this thread and given up. Siiiiigh.


Actually, I was flying to Pakistan ;) Sorry to break your heart. In any event, you can't compare Japan 60 years post conflict to something happening right now, obviously.

Try to put things in perspective from 1945 and try again.

[Xanator]

No, my point was that comparing WWII Japan to the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 wasn't accurate.

...

[Daniel]

...

For entirely different reasons. FFS dude.

[Xanator]

Actually, I was flying to Pakistan ;) Sorry to break your heart. In any event, you can't compare Japan 60 years post conflict to something happening right now, obviously.

Try to put things in perspective from 1945 and try again.

Ok, we'll try again.

I don't see any need to put things in perspective from 1945, because we've established I already feel it's a bad comparison to make. I was trying to better explain my feeling that Japan's involvement in WWII was based on their interests of territorial expansion, and that the government in power motivated its people (largely through the use of propaganda) to feel a deep enough sense of nationalism that they would fully support the war effort and, in time, even be willing to volunteer for kamikaze missions. When that government was removed and the territorial conquests halted (Japan cannot currently constitutionally wage war), the intense feelings of support for the war effort and all armed conflict itself vanished. Into thin air.

Thus:

a) If you want to draw any sort of comparison between this and the War on Terror, there doesn't seem to be a feasible way that US forces can expect to remove ONE ENEMY and end conflict which they DID in WWII's Pacific Theater by forcing the surrender of Japan.

b) The support the Japanese people gave the Hirohito/Emperor Showa government which invaded Manchuria and provoked the US into total war dried up once there was no more government to support. This was the end of the state of Japan in that incarnation, and there could therefore be no more nationalist pride felt for the state of Japan in that incarnation (on anything remotely near the scale of a majority of Japanese people). People in Germany doubtless still feel a great sense of nationalism for their country, but not for Nazi Germany. People in the American South still feel a great sense of nationalism for their country, but not the Confederate States of America. People in Russia can still have nationalist pride for their country, but it's no longer Soviet Russia.

Nations change over time--sometimes drastically. The state is not a static thing. You and I can have nationalist feelings for the United States of America today. That doesn't mean we feel a particular sense of nationalist pride for the United States of America that condoned slavery, that half of which was willing to go to war against the other in large part for the sake of protecting its right to own other human beings. In the 140+ years that followed, the nation has changed drastically.

WWII Japan is not comparable to the 9/11 hijackers. WWII Japan is not comparable to 2009 Japan. I'm getting really tired of repeating this.

[Daniel]

I would also have to say that my world view is apparently much broader than yours, as I'm perfectly willing to consider more than one side of an issue


Ok, we'll try again.

I don't see any need to put things in perspective from 1945, because we've established I already feel it's a bad comparison to make.

Wait, what?

You can't have it both ways kiddo.

The simple fact of the matter is you are trying to make the current war being fought as some unique snowflake which has no corollary to any other conflict which is false.

No you can not compare hijackers (one weapon) to an entire war. That would be silly, and dumb. Too bad that's not what I said.

To your failed point (again) I would say that there is fundamentally no difference between "hijackers" and "kamikazes" and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the lack thereof, which is the point you were trying to make initially.

[Xanator]

To your failed point (again) I would say that there is fundamentally no difference between "hijackers" and "kamikazes" and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion or the lack thereof, which is the point you were trying to make initially.

The most blatantly obvious difference is that kamikaze fighters were members of a nation's military, whereas the 9/11 hijackers were members of a multinational Sunni jihadist organization. This is a BIG difference. If we don't like kamikaze sinking our battleship, what do we do? Attack Japan, because we know exactly who and where Japan is. Can you not see how this is different than fighting al-Qaeda?

And I wasn't initially trying to make a point about Japan at all. My first post on the topic was an ironic comparison of post-war Japan and present-day Iraq. Then you jumped in, and I've been trying to clarify for your benefit ever since.

[Daniel]

The most blatantly obvious difference is that kamikaze fighters were members of a nation's military, whereas the 9/11 hijackers were members of a multinational Sunni jihadist organization. This is a BIG difference. If we don't like kamikaze sinking our battleship, what do we do? Attack Japan, because we know exactly who and where Japan is. Can you not see how this is different than fighting al-Qaeda?



Saying that you can't attack Japan is fundamentally different from saying that they driving factor of the conflict is "nationalism" vs "Religious extremism". Your initial point.



The second part ("That said...") is that hatred of America by the Japanese was state-sponsored hatred. As soon as the state fell, the hatred was easily stamped out and replaced. The failure or success of a government really has no bearing on the outcome of this conflict, as it isn't nationalism but their religion that's causing a number of these people to take up arms against us. We ousted Saddam Hussein. We are yet to oust Islam/radical Islam.



That said, Japan's interests were mostly territorial/expansionist, whereas the problem you face in the Middle East is extremism as part of an already widespread religion that is the world's fastest-growing. These people aren't being told to hate us by their government, but by their god. There's a difference.



Let's not forget that this was in response to:



It will all pass in time.

In the 40's Americans never thought they would visit Japan. Guess what?

They do.

Which of course implies that you think that we'll never reach a point of being able to interact with "Jihadists" because they fight for a religion and not a state. Yet, you've kept the same point throughout? Riiight.

[Xanator]

Yeah, but only after the imposition of an American-drafted democratic constitution and a seven-year Allied occupation.

...

You seem to have missed the irony here, which was the point, initially.

I propose that you stop making inferences into anything, because you're a categorical shit at it. "Which of course implies..." Really. Honestly. I didn't say I felt we'd never be able to interact with "jihadists." I said the current conflict is more difficult to defuse.

On the 1998 fatwa against Americans:

[T]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [in Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [in Makka] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'

Granted, the Islamist leaders who signed this fatwa (Osama bin Laden among them) were not all qualified to issue it.

As you've stated, your opinion is that
The problem is not the religion, the problem is our socio-economic relations with these regions and groups. I find it difficult to agree with that, especially since you've provided me with no real examples, despite my repeated requests.

But let's try to agree on something. Think of it this way. Maybe the problem with the leaders of the Islamist groups are socio-economic in their nature. I'm not really sure how you can make that assumption if you want to exclude religion from society or culture, but let's just say. The militants/jihadists are recruited from many nations by those groups on the basis of their belief in global jihad. This is a religious belief, and it provides our aggressors with a vast human resource.

[Daniel]

You seem to have missed the irony here, which was the point, initially.

I propose that you stop making inferences into anything, because you're a categorical shit at it. "Which of course implies..." Really. Honestly. I didn't say I felt we'd never be able to interact with "jihadists." I said the current conflict is more difficult to defuse.



Lol. Could you at least try and not blatantly contradict yourself in less than a few sentences. If you want us to believe that you weren't directly responding to the notion that we have reconciled our differences with the Japanese, then please don't point to point to a "fatwa" in an attempt to prove that the religion is the issue we have with them.





As you've stated, your opinion is that I find it difficult to agree with that, especially since you've provided me with no real examples, despite my repeated requests.



Oh really? So I didn't point out to you that the Taliban are almost exclusively ethnic Pashtuns in the cross border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. I also didn't point out that that other the ethnic groups, within the same states and with the same religion do not share their views and in fact actively fight against them?

You sure about that?

[Xanator]

Lol. Could you at least try and not blatantly contradict yourself in less than a few sentences. If you want us to believe that you weren't directly responding to the notion that we have reconciled our differences with the Japanese, then please don't point to point to a "fatwa" in an attempt to prove that the religion is the issue we have with them.

I'm just going to officially drop the whole Japanese thing, because I was never personally trying to draw a comparison at all. Someone else did that, I made an ironic statement about the similarities between Japan and IRAQ, then you arrived and began to apply your trademark selective interpretation of words and phrases to the non-discussion. When you someday die and go to hell, your punishment will be trying to explain something to you for all eternity. Good luck, fucker!


Oh really? So I didn't point out to you that the Taliban are almost exclusively ethnic Pashtuns in the cross border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. I also didn't point out that that other the ethnic groups, within the same states and with the same religion do not share their views and in fact actively fight against them?

You sure about that?

Uh, yeah. No, you said that, but you were attempting to present an example of a cultural conflict that didn't involve religion. Now you're posturing it as a defense of "the problem is our socio-economic relations with these regions and groups." I guess it isn't surprising that you should misinterpret/misapply your own statements as readily as you do those of others.

The closest thing I've been able to find in defense of your statement is Ramzi Yousef's claim that the 1993 WTC bombings were in opposition of the US's support of Israeli occupation of Palestine. He was also supposedly never a member of al-Qaeda, though he was trained in bomb manufacture at an al-Qaeda camp.

[TheEschaton]

You guys just keep going, and going, and going, and going....the last 3 pages of this thread I've been skipping over all the posts between Daniel and Xanator and I've been left with quite a manageable thread to read.

[Daniel]

I'm just going to officially drop the whole Japanese thing, because I was never personally trying to draw a comparison at all. Someone else did that, I made an ironic statement about the similarities between Japan and IRAQ, then you arrived and began to apply your trademark selective interpretation of words and phrases to the non-discussion. When you someday die and go to hell, your punishment will be trying to explain something to you for all eternity. Good luck, fucker!


Oh. I'm sorry, I thought maybe when you were making wide sweeping generalizations about the conflict we're having, you were actually referring to the people we were having the conflict with. So, I guess nevermind that in both Iraq and Afghanistan there are clear cut examples that contradict your thesis.




Uh, yeah. No, you said that, but you were attempting to present an example of a cultural conflict that didn't involve religion. Now you're posturing it as a defense of "the problem is our socio-economic relations with these regions and groups." I guess it isn't surprising that you should misinterpret/misapply your own statements as readily as you do those of others.

What? This doesn't even make sense. It's an example that not only shows that the conflict we are in is cultural but also that it is based upon socio-conomic relations, not religion. That you wouldn't find it relevant when arguing against your notion that the conflict is solely religious is baffling.




The closest thing I've been able to find in defense of your statement is Ramzi Yousef's claim that the 1993 WTC bombings were in opposition of the US's support of Israeli occupation of Palestine. He was also supposedly never a member of al-Qaeda, though he was trained in bomb manufacture at an al-Qaeda camp.

Yea well. You're obviously not well read, so I'm not too worried about it.

[Daniel]

You guys just keep going, and going, and going, and going....the last 3 pages of this thread I've been skipping over all the posts between Daniel and Xanator and I've been left with quite a manageable thread to read.

It's either this or try and pick up Urdo through osmosis on the television.

[TheEschaton]

I want to learn some South Asian languages, seeing as I'm from there. It's a whole different way of thinking, but I imagine if the hashish tourists in Goa can do it, so can I.

[Daniel]

I want to learn some South Asian languages, seeing as I'm from there. It's a whole different way of thinking, but I imagine if the hashish tourists in Goa can do it, so can I.

Yea. It doesn't help that you people throw all sorts of random ass english words into everything.

[TheEschaton]

We were taught by the British, and we were very good students. Not our fault.

[Daniel]

British accents are hawt. I'm gonna ask my gf if she can pick one up if I promise to learn urdu.

[TheEschaton]

If only I could find a British Latina Catholic girl, my life would be complete.

I'd settle for a British redhead Catholic girl.

[Daniel]

If only I could find a British Latina Catholic girl, my life would be complete.



Just get a latina who went to oxford or something.