Another new archer, rogue version

[oneillseanm]

Hi everyone. I came back to GS twenty days ago after a long break. The amount of helpful information of found on this forum has been amazing so far. At the beginning of my thirty days I created an archer and going into the final ten days I feel like I'm almost going in the direction I want but not quite. Would any of you be interested in taking a look at the direction and offering advice? I realize this is a fairly common type of thread. As much as possible I have tried to answer my own questions by reading old threads. Still, though, I feel like I could be making some mistakes. I hope you all don't mind another thread like this too much. Thanks everyone!

The stats:

Sylvankind
Rogue
Level: 13
STR: 91 (20)
CON: 37 (-6)
DEX: 95 (32)
AGI: 85 (22)
DIS: 55 (-3)
AUR: 92 (26)
LOG: 71 (10)
INT: 66 (8)
WIS: 91 (20)
INF: 33 (-8)
Mana: 11

Armor 15 ranks
CMan 15
Ranged 30
Ambush 30
Physical 15
Dodging 30
Survival 15
First Aid 15
Hiding 45
Disarm 30
Pick 30
Perception 30
Climb 15
Swim 7
Spells 1 (Minor Elemental)

In placing my stats I had a few things in mind:
- quick exp absorbtion
- a high aura for spirit for CoL signs
I neglected placing stats for a low firing roundtime. I'm not even sure if the 3 second long bow roundtime will be possible with this race and these stats, but I would really like it.

In selecting skills I had these things in mind:
- Sniper
- Self-sufficient
- Cman for combat mobility, surge, and shadow mastery.
- The ability to make silver skinning. I'm not sure if this is necessary. Will it be possible to make hunting the things I'll eventually be hunting otherwise?
- Here's the thing - I would love to be both 3x in hiding and 3x in disarm/pick; an excellent sniper and an excellent picker. I'm willing to make adjustments to armor, cman, spell, and other skill training to achieve that. How should I mold the rest of my training?

Should anyone have the time to think about my character and give advice I would truly be thankful. I appreciate your reading this! Thanks everyone.

[StrayRogue]

In placing my stats I had a few things in mind:
- quick exp absorbtion
- a high aura for spirit for CoL signs
I neglected placing stats for a low firing roundtime. I'm not even sure if the 3 second long bow roundtime will be possible with this race and these stats, but I would really like it.

In selecting skills I had these things in mind:
- Sniper
- Self-sufficient
- Cman for combat mobility, surge, and shadow mastery.
- The ability to make silver skinning. I'm not sure if this is necessary. Will it be possible to make hunting the things I'll eventually be hunting otherwise?
- Here's the thing - I would love to be both 3x in hiding and 3x in disarm/pick; an excellent sniper and an excellent picker. I'm willing to make adjustments to armor, cman, spell, and other skill training to achieve that. How should I mold the rest of my training?

Should anyone have the time to think about my character and give advice I would truly be thankful. I appreciate your reading this! Thanks everyone.

So basically you want to do everything.

It's not going to happen.

3x hiding is a waste of points IMO. You won't be reliably sniping for a while anyway, and it's just sucking points that can be spent elsewhere. You'll not be able to work skinning into that build.

You'll struggle to 2x Ambush, Perc, CM, Armor, and 3x Locksmithing/Hiding. My rogue archer 1x CM, 2.5x Picking and Disarming, 2x everything else. I got up to 406 (working towards 411 in chain).

Skinning isn't worth it as a ranged rogue. Again, it's a huge points sink, and you'll be hella vulnerable taking out a knife, kneeling and skinning a critter.

[DaCapn]

I once did 1x survival with my rogue to try to skin (around level 50) and it was utterly worthless. I really couldn't skin reliably and the skins didn't net me anything really. Maybe FA helps you skin more than survival, though (ridiculous?).

I think your build is pretty good as-is. Though I'd opt for 2x hide. Don't forget that you can enhance your hiding with armor specialization. I tried about 2.75x hide and then went back to 2x hide with armored stealth at 2 ranks in brig. It didn't really make the difference that it should have for the cost. I may come back to 3x hide just to remind myself that it's not worth it later. But 2x is definitely a fine choice.

[Endlin]

I agree that 3x hiding is a bit of a waste. At 2x, you'll be able to hide just fine from most things. And the critters that find you, would probably find you even if you were 3x.

3x picking/disarm is also a waste, early on. By the time you're 30 trains or so, at 2x, you'll still be able to pick 95% of your own boxes. You will get to a point that 2x won't cut it anymore, but not for a long time. If I were doing it over again, I'd start trying to move towards 2.5x around 50 trains or so.

I also wouldn't tank constitution that badly. But that's just me. You might even take a bit out of wisdom, you're going to get warded anyway. It's just how it is.

I'm also of the opinion that skinning is doable. What I did was 1x first aid to 30 ranks, then started 1x ing survival. I'm not a great skinner by any means, but especially in the earlier trains, I could get my skinning tasks done. And I made some nice coin from seeker eyes.

[oneillseanm]

Thanks very much to the three of you for your responses. They were really quick! I'm sorry I was unable to do the same with my response to you. I really appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts, though.

After taking your thoughts into account, here is the training plan I am considering:

1x armor (up to 35 ranks for brig)
1x cman
2x ranged
2x ambush
1x physical
2x dodging
2x disarming
2x picking
2x hiding
2x perception
1x first aid
1x survival
.5x climbing (up to 30 ranks)
.5x swimming (up to 30 ranks)
spells up to 404 (probably achieved at level 30)
harness power when possible for 20 mana or so

This plan reflects dropping hiding down to 2x and picking/disarm down to 2x in order to fit skinning and spells in. I'm not sure why, but I find myself extremely attached to skinning. I guess it's the money. In my experience 1x first aid/survival is enough to skin virtually without fail. Also, the survival would help out with a few things like Pinefar cold damage. If I'm totally misguided in my attachment to skinning, let me know.

I had a crazy thought as I was thinking about the 3x hiding issue. Sniping is a costly endeavor. What if I eliminate it, add tons of training points, and go for open archer with more spells? I'm not attached to sniping for roleplay value. I just want to be able to hunt effectively and not die. Would an open rogue with Ewave (around level 40) and 425 Elemental Targetting (at cap) be able to cut it? Or, would it just die to magic or something else? Here's a potential training plan:

1x armor (up to 35 ranks for brig)
1x cman
2x ranged
(no ambush as it wouldn't affect aiming in the open)
1x physical
2x dodge
2x disarm
2x picking
2x perception
(no hiding)
(no first aid/survival, thought it would fit if i slowed down on spells. i would be missing the terrain benefits of survival)
.25x spells
.25x harness power
.25x arcane symbols

Thanks again for all your help!

[kookiegod]

I've posted before I don't hide, at all, and it works just fine.

For staying in the open, I'd spend more on armor, get into mbp or chain as quickly as you can, since you WILL get hit more.

I use a lot of magical toys, so I don't do spells (yet), but yah, getting ewave either in spell or imbed form is always worth it.

For what its worth, this is my rogue archer build.

(at level 44), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 187 87 <-- in mbp now
Shield Use.........................| 15 3 <- stupid enhansive
Combat Maneuvers...................| 146 46
Ranged Weapons.....................| 196 96
Ambush.............................| 192 92
Physical Fitness...................| 146 46
Dodging............................| 218 118 <- lots of dodge 2.5x DS
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30 <--- scrolls
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30 <-- magic toys
Harness Power......................| 129 34 <-- ditto
Elemental Mana Control.............| 10 2 <--- another enhansive
Disarming Traps....................| 192 92 <- 2x
Picking Locks......................| 192 92 < - 2x
Perception.........................| 192 92 <- 2x
Climbing...........................| 105 25 <- no issues
Swimming...........................| 90 20 <- live on teras, could go
Training Points: 9 Phy 0 Mnt (66 Phy converted to Mnt)

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 5 <--- more AS to kill
Combat Mobility mobility 1

You are a Master of Sweep.

You are a Master of Cheap Shot.

You are a Master in the Council of Light. (considering moving to Sunfist before the shroud gets toooo bad for sigil of mending)

I got no problems killing fast, and effectively, and getting all my loot and picking my boxes.

Hope that helps!

~Paul

[Endlin]

The open archer/e-waving rogue has certainly been done before. And some people swear by it.

I've never tried it personally. I'd rather carry e-wave imbeds, wear my MBP, AND hide. Rogues get enough ways to knock things over from the guild, sure not a room full of things but... That's where the imbeds come in. The TP sink for that many spells has just never looked worth it to me. And 425 sounds super sexy in theory, but honestly because of the ranged DS that most things have, its not necessary. Especially since you're going COL.

Regardless of if you know e-wave or not... Hiding is a rogues best defense. Period.

The effect that spells have on redux is also something I'd consider, but at 1x PF your redux won't be anything spectacular anyway...

I know some of the other people here think open/e-wave is the way to go, hopefully they'll chime in so you can see it from both perspectives.

[Widgets]

Lockpicking, especially at low levels is for idiots who can't find or are too lazy to find a picker for their boxes as I see it..

Widgets (at level 35), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 134 37
Combat Maneuvers...................| 154 54
Ranged Weapons.....................| 174 74
Ambush.............................| 174 74
Physical Fitness...................| 174 74
Dodging............................| 208 108
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 70 15
Stalking and Hiding................| 174 74
Perception.........................| 174 74

Tweaked Archer Build as I used to have 20 HP Ranks, and 10 ranks in MnE...Done a bunch of different training paths...The use of 3 fixskills potion in roughly a week can vouch for that, and I think the above fit me best given what assets I had available to me as well.

[Endlin]

Lockpicking, especially at low levels is for idiots who can't find or are too lazy to find a picker for their boxes as I see it..

Or people that like to pick boxes...?

[Widgets]

Or people that like to pick boxes...?

Booooorrring! That and I don't like how people automatically assume you will pick their boxes simply because you pick them....But I'm a special case in alot of instances when it comes to training and stuff

[oneillseanm]

Here's how I'm seeing the issues now, after all of your help.

Lockpicking - I'm afraid I've got the lockpicking bug and am bound to dumping the points in it.

Magic - Not really into it. The only spells I would really want are the disarm/pick enhancements and ewave. However, (1) ewave isn't such a big deal and it would come late anyway and (2) I'd rather take boxes beyond my level to Larton than spend the TPs on enhancements.

With those two things in mind I think I'm down to two final options. Each would have this:

2x ranged
1x cman
2x dodge
0.5x climbing
0.5x swimming
2x perception
2.5x disarming
2.5x picking
1x first aid (I just can't help myself)
1x survival (I just can't help myself)

The first option, the hiding option, would then have this:
1x armor (would be in brig for a long time)
1x physical
2x ambush
2x hiding and a little bit of something else or 3x hiding

The second option, the open archer tank option, would shoot for more redux and have this:
2x armor (could jump into mbp soon)
2x physical
(no ambush since it wouldn't help aiming from the open)
(no hiding)

What do you guys think about those two options? Which is a more efficient hunting strategy? Will the extra redux and armor from the second option make me enough of a tank to be viable? Is hiding just better?

Thanks again guys!

[inso]

Your second plan needs ambush anyway, for ranged AS.

[oneillseanm]

My understanding is that ambush only adds 1 point of AS per 4 ranks and only after 40 ranks. Also, it only aids aiming when hidden. I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty certain ambush isn't necessary for an open archer.

[Widgets]

My understanding is that ambush only adds 1 point of AS per 4 ranks and only after 40 ranks. Also, it only aids aiming when hidden. I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty certain ambush isn't necessary for an open archer.

Open Archers do not need ambushing

[kookiegod]

Open Archers do not need ambushing

This is correct.

I'd prefer the tank option myself.

I only have the points cause haven't decided on reallocating them yet, but really, at cap, 2x in ambush doesn't add a ton of AS, its enough to make it worth it barely, but gonna look at other options myself.

~Paul

[oneillseanm]

How do you fare against casting critters and groups of critters as an open archer, kookiegod?

[Endlin]

Will the extra redux and armor from the second option make me enough of a tank to be viable? Is hiding just better?


I honestly don't understand why anyone would be a rogue and not train in hide or ambush but... I suppose it's doable.

[kookiegod]

Well, I decided last night after playing with some numbers to redo my archer a bit...

Armor Use..........................| 190 90 <--- upped to full for mbp
Shield Use.........................| 15 3 <-- enhansive
Combat Maneuvers...................| 146 46 < - 1x
Ranged Weapons.....................| 196 96 <- upped by enhansives
Physical Fitness...................| 169 69 <- upped for redux
Dodging............................| 241 141 <- full 3x
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30 <--- scroll use
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30 <-- item use
Harness Power......................| 131 35 <--added 5 ranks for mana
Elemental Mana Control.............| 10 2 <- enhansive
Disarming Traps....................| 192 92 <- 2x
Picking Locks......................| 192 92 <- 2x
Perception.........................| 192 92 <- 2x
Climbing...........................| 105 25 <- plenty for Teras
Swimming...........................| 90 20 <- unneeded for now, will have to up for Nelemar someday


Basically, I lost about 3 points of AS by dropping ambush, got a ton more DS from dodge, added to my redux some, and more mana for using magical toys.

~Paul

[kookiegod]

How do you fare against casting critters and groups of critters as an open archer, kookiegod?

Really none, and with the increase in DS from dodge, should be just fine.

TD I get from scrolls, get spells, sign of dissipation...if I join sunfist, they got a sigil for that...

~Paul

[kookiegod]

I honestly don't understand why anyone would be a rogue and not train in hide or ambush but... I suppose it's doable.

Not everyone wants to be, dare I say, kookiecutter?

Actually for me, the choice is speed, hiding takes time, I'd rather get out, kill, get back in as quickly and efficently as possible.

~Paul

[inso]

Paul, you went from 92 ranks of ambush in your previous post to zero, correct?

Is the formula for ranged AS on krakii incorrect then?

Dexterity bonus + Ranged Weapons skill + ((Perception ranks - 40)/4 + (Ambushing ranks - 40)/4) + (Bow enchant + Arrow enchant)

(92-40)/4 = 52/4 = 13

Showing a 13 differential for the 92 ranks- unless I'm completely misunderstanding/screwing up my order of operations somewhere.

[DaCapn]

Regardless of if you know e-wave or not... Hiding is a rogues best defense. Period.

I usually do fine standing in the open in full defensive... except against things that get me from hiding anyway. Hiding can bail you out sometimes but in general, it's not nearly as effective as STANCE DEF or MOVE. And if you do know 410, STANCE DEF followed by INCANT 410 does a whole lot more to prevent you from getting nailed than HIDE will ever do. If you HIDE, you're getting a chance to evade physical attacks (which rogues don't have such a hard time defending against in a defensive stance anyway)

With regards to imbeds vs. learning 410: I prefer something you can depend on. With one of my rogues I cast it on average 6 times per hunt. If you want to make some money, you have to cover your nut with the imbeds. For me, I'm thinking that it would put me in the red.

[Endlin]

Not everyone wants to be, dare I say, kookiecutter?

Actually for me, the choice is speed, hiding takes time, I'd rather get out, kill, get back in as quickly and efficently as possible.

~Paul

Being trained to hide just gives you more options. It's not like you have to hide everytime you kill something... But sometimes it makes life a lot easier to be able to.

And, this is meant to add to the discussion not insult you, but I don't see anything in the skills you posted that isn't doable while still training to hide.

If you don't want to hide, you could be a ranged bard, still learn to pick, have a much higher AS and all sorts of other goodies.

[DaCapn]

Showing a 13 differential for the 92 ranks- unless I'm completely misunderstanding/screwing up my order of operations somewhere.

Your math is sound.

[Endlin]

I usually do fine standing in the open in full defensive... except against things that get me from hiding anyway. Hiding can bail you out sometimes but in general, it's not nearly as effective as STANCE DEF or MOVE. And if you do know 410, STANCE DEF followed by INCANT 410 does a whole lot more to prevent you from getting nailed than HIDE will ever do. If you HIDE, you're getting a chance to evade physical attacks (which rogues don't have such a hard time defending against in a defensive stance anyway)

With regards to imbeds vs. learning 410: I prefer something you can depend on. With one of my rogues I cast it on average 6 times per hunt. If you want to make some money, you have to cover your nut with the imbeds. For me, I'm thinking that it would put me in the red.

Imbeds cost zero if you have a couple friends.

I also don't hide to avoid physical attacks. I hide to avoid being cast at. I would probably be more inclined to agree with you if I hadn't started hunting places where spell tanking to avoid warding spells isn't an option (rift, spell burst in OTF, skull temple, keen). You can get away with some spells in spell burst areas obviously but you've got to pick and choose.

I'm not saying learning e-wave and open hunting CAN'T work. I just think if you want to do that, you're only making it harder on yourself by being a rogue.

I just can't see the conclusion that, as a rogue, brig or chain + casting e-wave without being able to hide is better than wearing plate, rubbing an amulet, and/or hiding. Just more options. Hell... I carry e-wave imbeds but I use them... Just about never. I don't need to. If I really need to knock something over, I've got 3 other ways to do it and none of them cost me 670 MTP's to get.

Edit: Again.. I'm not saying there is a wrong and a right here. If you've got a character you enjoy playing who gives a shit really. Just adding to the discussion.

[kookiegod]

Paul, you went from 92 ranks of ambush in your previous post to zero, correct?

Is the formula for ranged AS on krakii incorrect then?

Dexterity bonus + Ranged Weapons skill + ((Perception ranks - 40)/4 + (Ambushing ranks - 40)/4) + (Bow enchant + Arrow enchant)

(92-40)/4 = 52/4 = 13

Showing a 13 differential for the 92 ranks- unless I'm completely misunderstanding/screwing up my order of operations somewhere.

Your're probably correct, just how I observed it.

~Paul

[kookiegod]

Being trained to hide just gives you more options. It's not like you have to hide everytime you kill something... But sometimes it makes life a lot easier to be able to.

And, this is meant to add to the discussion not insult you, but I don't see anything in the skills you posted that isn't doable while still training to hide.

If you don't want to hide, you could be a ranged bard, still learn to pick, have a much higher AS and all sorts of other goodies.

Oh I know, just how I saw my rogue doing things.

Tested it out today, 3x dodge is VERY sweet.

~Paul

[oneillseanm]

After some tweaking I think I've finally settled on some starting stats.

STR 90
CON 60
DEX 80
AGI 80
DIS 70
AUR 94
LOG 51
INT 51
WIS 60
INF 24

I set str high for roundtime, dex and agi medium-high for growth, and aura high for CoL. What do you guys think?