I am a religious topic

[Latrinsorm]

Brothers and sisters:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I was going to sleep a couple nights ago and as I often do I was thinking. Thinking, thinking, thinking, usually about things that wouldn't be polite to post about. I eventually came across what my mother had recently said to me in a phone conversation about Lent: She had heard a priest say (basically) Lent isn't about what you give up, it's about what you take up. And I thought, and I thought, and I thought.

I went to Mass today (that means I went to Church, Bob. The thing with the cross on top) and a response resonated within me: A broken, humbled heart, oh God, you will not scorn. The readings were about Jonah and later Jesus talking about Jonah. Jonah was kind of a goof, but he got the job done. Jonah was the guy who went to Nineveh (a naughty place) and said "Guys, you need to quit it or God will pwn you." and so the Ninevites said "Ok" and God said "U guys rox0rz, I won't pwn you" and everyone was happy (except Jonah, but he got over it). Then in the Gospel Jesus said "I'm kewler than Jonah, let's repent again" and everyone did, and they were happy too (except the Pharisees because Jesus wasn't big on hygiene) and I got to thinking, well, I'm no Jesus, but I think I could pull off a Jonah. And so I was thinking, and thinking, and thinking.

So I suggest to you, brothers and sisters, let us repent, for we are all sinners. We have all failed our God. But God will forgive those of humble heart. Honestly, I don't think I can do this on my own, I am proud, I am arrogant. As the prayer goes, "look not on our sins but on the faith of your church".

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

[Satira]

Are you kidding me with this? There's so much I could say.

[peam]

Please... no.

[Xcalibur]

When I'm thinking, drunk or not, about life in general, I've come to the conclusion I'm a believer.

If one day, sciences or whatever proves without any doubts possible that God and all those higher power doesn't exists, i'm closing the book right away (analogy there)

[Edited on 4-3-04 by Xcalibur]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Are you kidding me with this?No.
There's so much I could say. I encourage you to do so.

Yet again, I agree with X. :)

[Bobmuhthol]

<<that means I went to Church, Bob.>>

Pansy.

[Varsus]

Once again Im suckered into reading a thread because Bob posted in it last...

Heh

-Varsus (But I still think your cool bob...)

Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by RangerD1
Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here. :lol: Don't worry, I'll be containing my "crazy" here for the foreseeable future.

[Hulkein]

Good mission to take up Latrinsorm, good luck.

[Snapp]

Good for you? I guess?

[Skirmisher]

I am trying to word this as politely as I can so if I do offend, please understand I am not meaning to.

While there are topics that pull religion into various threads I must ask as vociferously as possible that we not go out of our way to do so.

There are simply too many religions that each have their own different tenets so many diametrically opposed that to inject it into threads where not specifically connected it will just end up causing antipathy among many posters.

I realize and appreciate the goodwill intended in the original post yet respectfully stand by my opinion here and hope you also may understand how and why I and others here may feel about this.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
There are simply too many religions that each have their own different tenets so many diametrically opposed I always thought that religions in their most pure sense weren't in the slightest bit of opposition. The methods and words are different, but they all go to the same place: people being good to people. Am I wrong?
yet respectfully stand by my opinion here and hope you also may understand how and why I and others here may feel about this. It's hard for me to understand why, but I get the how. :)

[Betheny]

Sorry... I don't believe in god.

[i remember halloween]

and god doesn't believe in you

[StrayRogue]

You obviously haven't read your bible very well? Stop burning black people and take another read.

[StrayRogue]

Oh, and to add something to this, I think religion is the bane of this world. I like the idea, some weak people need the father figure to govern their little lives. However, its when these religions force themselves down peoples throats, then starts killing people because its "righteous" or "holy" is when it needs to stop. Shame most religion do this these days.

[Edited on 4-3-04 by StrayRogue]

[HarmNone]

Personally, I think this topic is a good idea. If those who wish to wax religious will keep it here, those who do not wish to read it do not have to do so. :)

HarmNone.......thanks, Latrinsorm!

[TheEschaton]

I always thought that religions in their most pure sense weren't in the slightest bit of opposition. The methods and words are different, but they all go to the same place: people being good to people. Am I wrong?

Yeah, but that's not what you're saying with this post, Latrin. ;)


On an interesting note, I was thinking of bumper stickers I would have on my car if they weren't too long and unwieldy to read while going 90 mph:

"What would Jesus do? Jesus wouldn't immediately ostracize those who don't believe him, let alone believe in him, by saying that he was the one and only true way to eternal salvation."

I think the thing about modern evangelicism is that it is stubbornly proud. If the Bible said, "Preach the Gospel.....but that makes you in no way better than anyone else, and in fact, does not by any means guarantee your passage into Heaven", do you think so many people would still preach it?

No, people preach the Gospel because it puts them in a (falsely assumed) position of power against people around them. That they're the only ways this poor heathen person can be "saved".

Modern evangelicism is a far cry from what Jesus preached. People like Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, et al, are, as far as I'm concerned, doing the devil's work, by dividing people more than they already are.

What does the Bible say about the Antichrist? That he'll preach Jesus's message, and mark them with his sign, and too late, they'll realize he does not preach Jesus's message at all, but that of the devil?

I think Jesus would be downright chilly with the Buddha.

-TheE-

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by TheEschaton]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
people preach the Gospel because it puts them in a (falsely assumed) position of power against people around them. That they're the only ways this poor heathen person can be "saved".That wasn't my intent at all, and it makes me sad you think it was. This sad --> :(

[HarmNone]

I have seen, and heard, the type of person TheE is talking about, Latrinsorm. I can assure you that you do not come off as such to me. Although I do not believe in your God, I respect the fact that you do, and that this belief brings you happiness.

May you stand in the grove without fear, and may the grove enfold you and hold you in its peace. :)

HarmNone

[Mint]

HAHAHA he's been threatening to do this in U2U's HAHA. Fear bible boy, he is on a roll now.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton


"What would Jesus do? Jesus wouldn't immediately ostracize those who don't believe him, let alone believe in him, by saying that he was the one and only true way to eternal salvation."

I think the thing about modern evangelicism is that it is stubbornly proud. If the Bible said, "Preach the Gospel.....but that makes you in no way better than anyone else, and in fact, does not by any means guarantee your passage into Heaven", do you think so many people would still preach it?

No, people preach the Gospel because it puts them in a (falsely assumed) position of power against people around them. That they're the only ways this poor heathen person can be "saved".

-TheE-

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by TheEschaton]

Few things here. First, Jesus would, and did, say that he is the only way to recieve God.

John 14: 1 - 6

1. Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in Me.
2. In My Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with Me that you also may be where I am.
4. You know the Way to the place I am going.
5. Thomas said to Him, Lord, we don’t know where You are going, so how can we know the way?
6. Jesus answered, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Secondly, no man should boast about anything he has done. And preaching does not gaurentee you will recieve salvation by any means.

Ephesians 2: 8 - 9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God ---

not by works, so that no one can boast.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by LatrinsormI got to thinking, well, I'm no Jesus, but I think I could pull off a Jonah. And so I was thinking, and thinking, and thinking.

So I suggest to you, brothers and sisters, let us repent, for we are all sinners. We have all failed our God. But God will forgive those of humble heart. Honestly, I don't think I can do this on my own, I am proud, I am arrogant. As the prayer goes, "look not on our sins but on the faith of your church".

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.


About sins.....

I hate this EVERYONE IS A SINNER repent now and forever.

I'm not a sinner. I don't cheat, steal, murder, rape, abuse, or break other laws.

Bible sins? Original sin? I think it's crap that according to the bible all women for the rest of time are paying for what Eve did. What kind of God would make women go through horrid pain to bring children into this world because ONE messed up. Or say that all humans have sin because Adam AND Eve messed up?

Well damn, we should follow God's law and if ANYone in your past commited a crime and went to jail for say LIFE then you and your family need to go to jail now. I mean, its your fault right?




God says to be humble, God says to be good, kind, etc....

God is not humble. Everything I hear is 'Do it for the GLORY of GOD'

Pride is a sin. Yada yada. Yet GOD is so full of pride, that everything is for him. You will burn and suffer in HELL for eternity ifyou do not believe in Him and His Son. That is arrogance.

He says, forgive others, turn the other cheek, love even your enemies.

How can I love and worship someone who is hypocritical?

And I'm going to hear, OH BUT He is not human, he does not have to blah blah.

1)The 10 Commandments: Since when is stealing worse than say rape? The commandments are messed up priorities. He has one violent crime banned, murder. Forget all the others.

2)Notice 'He' doesn't say slavery is wrong. Feel free to look it up, somewhere it says to treat SLAVES well and for slaves to respect their masters. Jews THEMSELVES and CHRISTIANS later, all had slaves. if He knows all, and slavery IS wrong, then why didn't he straight out say I CREATED ALL RACES AND HUMANS thou shalt not own or demean another of my children?

Here are some I know for sure where he allowed slavery or even demeaned and looked down on slaves Himself:

Genesis 20:17 - Then Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abim'elech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children.

Jeremiah 34:9 - that every one should set free his Hebrew slaves, male and female, so that no one should enslave a Jew, his brother. (But its ok to have slaves that don't beleive in God)

Proverbs 19:10 - It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury, much less for a slave to rule over princes.

Yet He 'saves' his own people from slavery:
Deuteronomy 15:15 - You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today.

God's beloved Abraham even had children by his slaves. That's one way to promote monogomous marriage :P And about those kids....

Galatians 4:30 - But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."

Galatians 4:31 - So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

PHEW, Lord help us if we were the children of slaves. Oh wait, many of us are. But Slavery must be ok, because GOD allows it.

This I know, is not about slavery. I used it as an example.

God sure is picky on right and wrong.

To me, the Bible more and more sounds like a book, written by MEN over thousands of years, to propogate their beleifs and lifestyles.

I believe in most of the morale teachings, but as a whole.

I find much of it, and the God it proclaims, full of hypocrasy.

[Nakiro]

Hrm, a few more things:

"Bible sins? Original sin? I think it's crap that according to the bible all women for the rest of time are paying for what Eve did. What kind of God would make women go through horrid pain to bring children into this world because ONE messed up. Or say that all humans have sin because Adam AND Eve messed up"

Yes, you have most certainly fallen short of the glory of God. I can gaurentee that at one time in your life you have failed to be perfect. What you inherited from Adam and Eve, meant by "orginal sin" is you are concieved from a nature that is prown to fallacy. Thus, you are falliable, and have failed.

"1)The 10 Commandments: Since when is stealing worse than say rape? The commandments are messed up priorities. He has one violent crime banned, murder. Forget all the others. "

It isn't.

Thinking to kill someone and killing someone, they are the same in God's eyes. You break one, you might as well break them all. It doesn't really matter, you are still in sin.

"God's beloved Abraham even had children by his slaves. That's one way to promote monogomous marriage And about those kids.... "

God promised Abraham a son by his wife, who at the time was very, very old. Not believing him, and wishing a child, Abraham took it upon himself to have sex with a slave and thus he was given a son. God never told Abraham to do this, and infact this slave would later go on to found Palastine.

"Galatians 4:30 - But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." "

God promised Abraham that his ancestors would be as many as the stars in the sky, and that they would become his Son's. By this he indicated that Abraham would be the father of the Jewish people, and that through his descendents Christ would be born, whom would redeem his people.

As I mentioned before, the son of the slave woman, Ishmael, went on to become the founder of the Palastine nation, which in the future would continue to be the Jewish people's largest rivaarly:

"you are now with child, and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishamael, for the Lord has heard of your miesery. He will be a wild doneky of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." (Gen 15:11).

Genisis 17: 15 - 20

"God also said to Abraham, "As for sarai, your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himsekf,"will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" Then God said,"yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with HIM as an everylasting covenant for his descendants after him."


"As for Ishamel, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of tweleve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Gen 17:19)

"Galatians 4:31 - So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. "

Refers to being a descendent of Abrahm's wife, and thus in the promise of being God's people.

"This I know, is not about slavery. I used it as an example. "

Then why did you cite it?

"God sure is picky on right and wrong. "

Do you just love to take things out of context for a reason?

"if He knows all, and slavery IS wrong, then why didn't he straight out say I CREATED ALL RACES AND HUMANS thou shalt not own or demean another of my children? "

Uhm, he kind of did. Matthiew 22: 34 - 40

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharissees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatesst commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replided: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' this is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like i: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS HANG ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS.

If by demeaning someone you consider them something less than you, and you do not love them as you do yourself, how could it not be in violation of this commandment?

[longshot]

I'm so glad I don't have to hear this shit where I live now.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by longshot
I'm so glad I don't have to hear this shit where I live now.

And yet, you read this thread... why?

[longshot]

Originally posted by Nakiro

And yet, you read this thread... why?

To remind myself what I'm not missing.

It's not condemming you or anything... Whoops! bad word choice.

It's not a knock against you or your beliefs, but in a year and a half, I've never had to hear anything about angels on the head of pin.

Okay, let the healing begin!

[Satira]

Caiylania is my new favorite poster.

How can people base their lives off of the Bible. It's God's word? We're suppose to believe that thousands of years ago MAN translated this from God and it's perfectly correct? How do we know there isn't some huge mix up? We don't. And what if God changed his/her/its/their mind?

Also, Jesus hung out with drunks and whores and saw the good in those people. If he was around today do you really think he would be going along with what Billy Graham and Pat Robertson are doing? Of course not.

I don't mind people who are Christian. I really don't. But when you look at how the religion has been set up by man, and see what they've fought for and what they're fighting for now, they complete contradict themselves.

Also, Christians immediately got too political. They stole a million things from the Pagans to convert them on over to their side. Easter is the ressurection of Jesus..that just so happens to coincide with the springtime solstice? Oh REALLY? And I guess that's why we put EGGS in a basket and color them, and have our kids sit on a bunnies lap as well. I'm sure those things have NOTHING to do with a springtime fertility ritual.

Just send me to hell.

[TheEschaton]

By the way, Ishmael is not in any way related to Palestine - he is the father of Islam though, as Mohammed traced his lineage back through Ishmael, as Jesus traced his through David.

And Nakiro, I'm talking about basic psychology. Even if Jesus said he was the one and only way - basic psychology says that if you offer, or force, only one choice, people will naturally rebel against it, even if they may agree with it under normal circumstances.

-TheE-

[Myshel]

Religion is such a personal thing. Wether you are a believer or not, it has every right to be in this forum. In my life time I've investigated most major religions and come to my own conclusions. I think that we as a thinking people can question, embrace or discard what feels right to us. Its part of our history and struggle in the human race, and to not know what part its played in our heritage is to not know ourselves.
All the big religions, christian or otherwise all teach apoximately the same things. That the clergy in history where the educated people of our world, the powers to be (most of whom could not read and write), used them to control the masses. The religious leaders used politics to further their cause.
As the human race became educated, this has changed and instead of blindly following, we have been quietly (and some not so quietly), questioning and forming indiviual beliefs. This is just as much evolution of the mind and spirit, in the past 10,000 years as height and brain power.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
May you stand in the grove without fear, and may the grove enfold you and hold you in its peace. :)

HarmNone

Is that a quote from the Bible? I ask that because the deed I have to the park proclaims it as "Falgrin's Grove"... and boy would I love to use that quote (if it's NOT from the Bible)

[HarmNone]

No, Parkbandit. That is not a quote from the bible, and you are welcome to use it, if you wish. :)

HarmNone

[Parkbandit]

Heh.. I'll make sure Falgrin coughs "TM" when he does :)

[HarmNone]

Hee! We shall hope the grove does not turn on him and smite him when his grubby little paw is found in the pocket of another! ;)

HarmNone, on the grove and retribution :cackle:

[Ooga Chaka]

God promised Abraham that his ancestors would be as many as the stars in the sky, and that they would become his Son's. By this he indicated that Abraham would be the father of the Jewish people, and that through his descendents Christ would be born, whom would redeem his people.


I don't really see how that indicates whatever you said about the Jewish people and the descendants of Christ.
God promised Abraham that his ancestors would be as many as the stars in the sky, and that they would become his Son's. Sounds to me like God is promoting reincarnation. LOLzors

[Latrinsorm]

Harm, should I be worried that whenever I read what you posted I think of the Sylvan lore on the play.net website? :D
Originally posted by Caiylania
I'm not a sinner. I don't cheat, steal, murder, rape, abuse, or break other laws.
While it is good you don't do those things, you break the Lord's law whenever you do not love. I'm not putting myself above you or anyone, but I've never met anyone (one girl I knew was close) who loved everyone all the time. It's impossible!
God is not humble. If you don't consider Jesus God, then that would work, but I think the most humble act maybe ever was Jesus coming down and allowing us to torture him to death, when at any instant he could have wiped us all from existence.
Here are some I know for sure where he allowed slavery or even demeaned and looked down on slaves Himself: To counter, I would point out how Jesus said "the last shall be first and the first shall be last".

I don't want us to smash ourselves to pieces butting heads (again) Caiylania. I do appreciate your perspective (especially since you seem a lot like me) but I have something else troubling me. It's been about one year since my grandfather died. We weren't close, but I keep crying. It's not continuous, just brief spots here and there. About a year ago, I saw my father, the strongest man who has ever lived, cry for the first time in my life. And it makes me miserable that I can't be strong for him, to whom I owe so much. I'm going home today for break, but I don't know what to do, what to say, how to help. He's been pretty heavily anti-religious for some time now, pretty much ever since he got sick a lot (although he's better now). I have nothing.

The Lord be with us all. Amen.

[Tsa`ah]

Oiy ... the powder keg that is religion.

I'm almost too exhausted to debate this.

It's not in me to hold in contempt the fashion and manner in which I was created. I rather like myself and I feel it would be an insult to Elohim to seek forgiveness for his/her own doing.

Were I to seek atonement on one day this year, it would be on September 25th, Yom Kippur.

As the joke goes ... What Catholics accomplish in 40 days, we do in one. You people are either slow, or fucking evil. :P

I keed ... I keed

Concerning the quote from Ecclesiastes, and I find myself becoming more the broken record in pointing this out. This is a book from Ketuvim, or writings. These were considered fiction of the moral sort before Christ and continue to be as such thousands of years after his death. No one has put forth an answer as to why or when these writings were considered historic and prophetic.

Mary's genealogy puts her as close to an acceptable descendant of David as you or I. Think about it a moment and trace it back to the closes link to David mentioned, and then understand why it is not possible.

The concept of original sin was drummed up, for some strange reason, after or during the time of Christ. I guess you can squarely peg that one on Christians. Don't look at me, I think it's silly and part of some bad bad translation.

Slavery. Tough one. You have to accept the Hebrew notion of slavery is far different than the Egyptian or pre-civil war era notions of slavery.

Remember the Exodus and what the Jews were fleeing from. Egyptian slavery. It was brutal, it was cruel, and it was the death of thousands annually. It was not much different than Nazi death camps, with the exception of the Pharaoh not wanting all Jews dead.

Once free of the Egyptian yolk, slavery was handled differently. We would call it working off your debt. If you couldn't pay your bill, you worked it off. No one owned you, they just owned a portion of your time until the debt was paid. One could replace themselves with say... one of their children, a brother, wife, a slave indebted to you, but nowhere was ownership of a person implied. Further more, and this is where the Torah comes in, there was a Law to be followed. Beating your slave, humiliating them and so forth, freed that person from your debt. These were Laws to ensure that people were protected no matter their status.

Stop thinking of Jewish slaves as plantation workers and start thinking of them as working off the diner bill they couldn't pay by washing dishes. That is far more accurate than the notion you are holding.

The commandment pertains to "murder" not killing. The same to some, but not all.

Ooga --- Reincarnation ... You cabalist?

[edited to say oop... I just realized Ecclesiastes wasn't mentioned. I'm exhausted, beat me later.]

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Harm, should I be worried that whenever I read what you posted I think of the Sylvan lore on the play.net website? :D

Heh. Nope. Believe me, I would have done it very differently were I ascribing lore to a "people of the trees". ;)


While it is good you don't do those things, you break the Lord's law whenever you do not love. I'm not putting myself above you or anyone, but I've never met anyone (one girl I knew was close) who loved everyone all the time. It's impossible!

I think, perhaps, you have love confused with complacency. One can love everyone. That is not impossible. However, one need not tolerate unacceptable behavior. We love our children, but we must teach them right from wrong by letting them know when they have crossed a line with their behavior. To do so IS to love them. :)


It's been about one year since my grandfather died. We weren't close, but I keep crying. It's not continuous, just brief spots here and there. About a year ago, I saw my father, the strongest man who has ever lived, cry for the first time in my life. And it makes me miserable that I can't be strong for him, to whom I owe so much. I'm going home today for break, but I don't know what to do, what to say, how to help. He's been pretty heavily anti-religious for some time now, pretty much ever since he got sick a lot (although he's better now). I have nothing.

One cannot be strong for another, Latrinsorm. One can only be strong for oneself. Your father is grieving a loss, just as you are. People do this in different ways, and require different amounts of time to put things to rest within themselves. Love is a very strong emotion and does not disappear just because the object of that love has left this plane of existance. We mourn our losses, each in his/her own way.

HarmNone is sorry for your loss

Religion is the sux.

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Caiylania is my new favorite poster.

We're suppose to believe that thousands of years ago MAN translated this from God and it's perfectly correct?

Only if your an idiot.



Also, Christians immediately got too political. They stole a million things from the Pagans to convert them on over to their side. Easter is the ressurection of Jesus..that just so happens to coincide with the springtime solstice? Oh REALLY? And I guess that's why we put EGGS in a basket and color them, and have our kids sit on a bunnies lap as well. I'm sure those things have NOTHING to do with a springtime fertility ritual.

Just send me to hell.

The Xian imperialists did not fight their wars with swords and shields but with politics and and assimilation. To date, they have been the most successful imperialists.

It's been about one year since my grandfather died. We weren't close, but I keep crying. It's not continuous, just brief spots here and there.


Pussy


About a year ago, I saw my father, the strongest man who has ever lived, cry for the first time in my life. And it makes me miserable that I can't be strong for him, to whom I owe so much. I'm going home today for break, but I don't know what to do, what to say, how to help. He's been pretty heavily anti-religious for some time now, pretty much ever since he got sick a lot (although he's better now). I have nothing.

You shouldn't be expected to be strong for your father, if he is unable to find the strength within himself, then no one can give it to him.

[Caiylania]

Nakiro: <<<God promised Abraham a son by his wife, who at the time was very, very old. Not believing him, and wishing a child, Abraham took it upon himself to have sex with a slave and thus he was given a son. God never told Abraham to do this, and infact this slave would later go on to found Palastine.>>>

He didn't found Palestine, that I believe was another lineage.

My point being though, if you read THE OTHER quote, GOD healed both his wife AND HIS SLAVE so that BOTH could bear children for Abraham.

Nakiro quoting me and responding >>>"Galatians 4:31 - So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. "

Refers to being a descendent of Abrahm's wife, and thus in the promise of being God's people. <<<


So you can only be one of "God's People" if you were not from the slave? That was my point for that quote.

Nakiro quoting me and response >>>"This I know, is not about slavery. I used it as an example. "

Then why did you cite it? <<<<

To point out that God allowed slavery, and in so doing, became Hypocritical.


Quote from Tsa'ah <<<Slavery. Tough one. You have to accept the Hebrew notion of slavery is far different than the Egyptian or pre-civil war era notions of slavery.

Remember the Exodus and what the Jews were fleeing from. Egyptian slavery. It was brutal, it was cruel, and it was the death of thousands annually. It was not much different than Nazi death camps, with the exception of the Pharaoh not wanting all Jews dead.

Stop thinking of Jewish slaves as plantation workers and start thinking of them as working off the diner bill they couldn't pay by washing dishes. That is far more accurate than the notion you are holding. >>>

You mean like the indentured 'servants' many people 'sponsored' to immigrate to America?

I have read up on slavery back then. Some points since you seem to believe the Egyptians to be cruel.

From what has been uncovered in Egypt. The lives of their slaves as been documented.

Slaves in Egypt were given salaries and allowed to buy their freedom when they had saved up their value (assigned to them by an unbiased 'blue book' type person)

They were treated well, and often ate, slept, and acted as part of a family. Many rose to great power, and their were even Jewish slaves (in Egyptian records who didn't know about the bible and really had no reason to lie) who influenced and worked for the Pharoah in honored/esteemed positions.

Slaves were often treated better than lower classes and had full rights of citizens accept being allowed to 'quit' their job and such.

Much as people say the Hebrew's treated their slaves.

POINT: It was STILL owning another life. Hebrew owning non Hebrew or Egyptian owning non Egyptian.

And you could say that there is no way for me to claim Egyptians didn't abuse their slaves, and you would be right. Just like YOU can't say that Hebrews didn't abuse theirs.

Both of their OWN histories (not their writings ABOUT the OTHER) show that their treatment was kind.

Only the Bible says that Egyptians abused Jews. And Jews say THEIR slaves were treated with love and respect. What is that saying, that the winner writes the history?




Here are some I know for sure where he allowed slavery or even demeaned and looked down on slaves Himself: To counter, I would point out how Jesus said "the last shall be first and the first shall be last". Oh yeah. THAT proves your point :?:

My question, was why did God allow slavery? And if the Bible allows it, then well, who is America to say it's wrong?

I am sorry about your father and grandfather. That situation I do know and understand. It sounds though, that he needs to be able to come to terms with his grief, and I hope he can do that. It took me quite awhile, if I can say I have at all :(

[Tsa`ah]

No no no no no.

This isn't about a winner or loser.

While I most certainly would be interested in reading up on the treatment of Egyptian slaves, you can't tell me that the Hebrews wanted to flee Egypt because they were so well cared for.

Granted it may very well be that both histories are fictitious, it just defies logic that a mass group of people would so adamantly sever ties to beneficial slavers.

You did completely miss my point about slavery within the Jewish world. You are still associating the usage of the word "slave" with a negative detractor.

A person, for the most part, chose to become a slave. Rarely was a person forced into an agreement unless there was no other alternative. It was nothing AT ALL like indentured servitude during the colonization.

You also have to accept that during the time of Noah, the time Abraham, the time of Moses, the time of David were nothing like today. Hebrew civilization was still tribal and largely nomadic and certain social behaviors, abhorred today, were the norm of the era.

The Torah explicitly outlines laws pertaining to slavery. To treat someone under your care with malice of any sort was to forfeit you the debt of you slave/s, and often your own property.

People of that time knew what slavery entailed and could actively avoid it by keeping their finances in order or simply not incur debt.

Our civilization today would probably be considered the Gomorra of then. So what exactly is the point focusing on slavery as this horrid and abominable thing that is outlined in religious texts?

Would it not be better for you to understand the context of this slavery before you say "God promoted slavery"?

And no .... you still did not OWN another life. No matter if the slave was Jewish or not. ALL people, slave or no, were to be treated equally no matter what their social status.

I forget the exact text from Leviticus, but it states a traveler/visitor in the land of Judea was to be treated as a Jew and not shunned. Likewise a Jew was to respect and abide by the laws of any land he/she may travel outside of Judea.

When in Rome.

[edited cause I need sleep and I can't get all my thoughts into longer more boring post]

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania
was why did God allow slavery? That is part of the Question: why does God allow bad things? If anyone tells you they have a (satisfactory) response, they're lying. There's no logical reason for God to allow evil in the world. I personally trust in God, I'm sure once we have a chat face to face, I'll be satisfied. Until then, all I have is trust/faith.

The last/first quote was meant to point out that although God allows downtrodden folk to exist, they will be exalted in Heaven. They get the good seats and stuff. Please note: this is not meant to exonerate God or provide a reason for there being downtrodden folk in the first place.

I don't know why I posted that stuff about my dad. But I appreciate the responses.

For the Greater Glory of God. AMDG.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
By the way, Ishmael is not in any way related to Palestine - he is the father of Islam though, as Mohammed traced his lineage back through Ishmael, as Jesus traced his through David.

And Nakiro, I'm talking about basic psychology. Even if Jesus said he was the one and only way - basic psychology says that if you offer, or force, only one choice, people will naturally rebel against it, even if they may agree with it under normal circumstances.

-TheE-

This does not negate the fact that he did indeed say that he was the only way to heaven. Also, he would not lie to you if you asked him how to get into heaven. He would not say, "Believe in Budda if you want, its all cool."

[TheEschaton]

One can love everyone.

Actually, I think it is impossible to fully love even one person. We are imperfect all.

As for the distinction of murder and killing, that's a debate that would stretch long into the night - God obviously gave us dominion over the animals, but when Cain murdered Abel, I don't think there were any caveats on the marking of Cain. I cannot imagine Yahweh saying, "Now, if Abel was trying to take your offering, and hurt you, you coulda just popped a cap in his ass." I think those who accept murder in the 5th commandment as only the willful killing of another person, simply do not wish to push themselves to be as God wanted us to be.

As for the slavery. In India, people still have servants. When I was old enough to recognize what this was, I was shocked, but I came to understand that servitude does not always equate to oppression. Jesus himself washed the feet of his disciples at the Last Supper, showing that we should indeed enslave ourselves to others.

In fact, the definition of love I use today is the state of complete and utter enslavement of a person to another, done willingly, and in faith of not being abused by the "master".

As for the question of "Why Does God allow bad things?" I would point you towards Dorothee Soelle (ZER-hla) and her book called "Suffering", Gustavo Gutierrez's "On Job", and Johann Baptiste Metz's "Passion for God", which is about how we can still believe in God "After Aushwitz".

Edited to correct the title of Metz's book.

-TheE-

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by TheEschaton]

[TheEschaton]

This does not negate the fact that he did indeed say that he was the only way to heaven. Also, he would not lie to you if you asked him how to get into heaven. He would not say, "Believe in Budda if you want, its all cool."

He said it (though, I am sure you will remember, he never said he was the Son of God, Peter did, and he commanded him to be quiet on that point), but you're not Christ, and I don't think you could make the message as non-judgmental and loving as he did.

Furthermore, the evangelical churches preach that not accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior leads to hellfire. That being said, I once asked someone if Gandhi was burning in hell. When he answered yes, then I knew that those fucking morons couldn't be right.

And I think Jesus WOULD say that there is one destination, but many paths to that destination. I'd simply say the destination is God (which Jesus was, according to our belief system), and the paths can be through any multiple ways, whether it be Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or frickin' Wicca.

-TheE-

[Nakiro]

>>To point out that God allowed slavery, and in so doing, became Hypocritical.

1) I already stated that God never condoned people having slaves.

2) I already stated that Jesus said to love one another as you love yourself. This includes those who are in bondage to you for debt (generally refered to at the time as slavery).

>>My point being though, if you read THE OTHER quote, GOD healed both his wife AND HIS SLAVE so that BOTH could bear children for Abraham.

>>Genesis 20:17 - Then Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abim'elech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children.

Funny how you reference this quote as God's way of allowing Abraham to birth Ishamel, even though this event occured after Ishamel's birth.

Also, the slaves were not likely to have sex with Abraham, but their spouses. Yes, they were allowed to marry under the permission of their owners.

>>My question, was why did God allow slavery? And if the Bible allows it, then well, who is America to say it's wrong

He allowed it as a form of repayment of a debt, as someoen pointed out to earlier. You would work for the household until your debt was repaid. What he DIDN'T allow was to treat your slaves with indignity, disrespect, and maltreatment.

[Reyek]

the only god i know of is the porcelain one...

[TheEschaton]

This is what I was always taught:

In the tradition at the time of Abraham, a man, if his wife was unable to have child, and bear him a son, he would take his head female slave, and have an heir through her. The heir would be treated as his firstborn child, unless, through some way, the original wife conceived of child, which is when the birthright was automatically passed to the "full" son, even though he was younger.

Thus, the story I learned: Abram and Sarai couldn't get pregnant. Soon, Sarai was of an age where she couldn't conceive a child, and she gave her permission for Abram to sleep with the servant. She bore him a son, Ishmael, who was to be Abram's heir. Then, through a miracle of God, Sarai became pregnant with Isaac and the birthright passes to him automatically.

Thus, Abram becomes Abraham (Father, to Father of Many), and Sarai becomes Sarah.

-TheE-

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

This does not negate the fact that he did indeed say that he was the only way to heaven. Also, he would not lie to you if you asked him how to get into heaven. He would not say, "Believe in Budda if you want, its all cool."

He said it (though, I am sure you will remember, he never said he was the Son of God, Peter did, and he commanded him to be quiet on that point), but you're not Christ, and I don't think you could make the message as non-judgmental and loving as he did.

Furthermore, the evangelical churches preach that not accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior leads to hellfire. That being said, I once asked someone if Gandhi was burning in hell. When he answered yes, then I knew that those fucking morons couldn't be right.

And I think Jesus WOULD say that there is one destination, but many paths to that destination. I'd simply say the destination is God (which Jesus was, according to our belief system), and the paths can be through any multiple ways, whether it be Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or frickin' Wicca.

-TheE-


He said it (though, I am sure you will remember, he never said he was the Son of God, Peter did, and he commanded him to be quiet on that point), but you're not Christ, and I don't think you could make the message as non-judgmental and loving as he did.

Furthermore, the evangelical churches preach that not accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior leads to hellfire. That being said, I once asked someone if Gandhi was burning in hell. When he answered yes, then I knew that those fucking morons couldn't be right.


-TheE- [/quote]

No I probably couldn't make the message as non-judgemental, but that does not negate the fact that he said I am the only way to the father.


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)

Sorry, there is only one way, and if Ghandi, or you, or anyone else does not come to God through either Christ, or the promise of Christ, they will be judged on their own accord.

>>And I think Jesus WOULD say that there is one destination, but many paths to that destination. I'd simply say the destination is God (which Jesus was, according to our belief system), and the paths can be through any multiple ways, whether it be Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or frickin' Wicca.

You think this, yet there is nothing in scripture that states this is truth.

Sorry, but at this point you are just beliving whatever you want to believe. I have given passage that states this is not true.

As such, it seems to me you are only believing what you want to believe, and whatever you make up. If this is the case, clearly there is nothing to argue because you are simply at disagreement with what scripture says.

[Miss Jade]

i dont think it matters how you come to the truth be it Jesus, Budda, Alah, Wicca or what ever. as long as you find it and your at peace with it.
________
BLONDE WIFE (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/328/wife/videos/1)

[Mint]

[iOriginally posted by TheEschaton

Furthermore, the evangelical churches preach that not accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior leads to hellfire. That being said, I once asked someone if Gandhi was burning in hell. When he answered yes, then I knew that those fucking morons couldn't be right.


Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p 28) says concerning "hell": "First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell', as understood today, is not a happy translation."

It is because of the way that the word 'hell' is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of the original bible words. The word 'hell thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but of a covered over or concealed place.

Hellfire has been a teaching in Christendom for centuries, a teaching that is completely foreign to the original definition of the word.

On a related note: Hindus and buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment, suffering after death is found among the pagan teachings of ancient Babylon and Egypt, Assyrian beliefs depicted the nether world as a place full of horrors presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness. So suffering after death is by no means the sole domain of the Christian.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
This is what I was always taught:

In the tradition at the time of Abraham, a man, if his wife was unable to have child, and bear him a son, he would take his head female slave, and have an heir through her. The heir would be treated as his firstborn child, unless, through some way, the original wife conceived of child, which is when the birthright was automatically passed to the "full" son, even though he was younger.

Thus, the story I learned: Abram and Sarai couldn't get pregnant. Soon, Sarai was of an age where she couldn't conceive a child, and she gave her permission for Abram to sleep with the servant. She bore him a son, Ishmael, who was to be Abram's heir. Then, through a miracle of God, Sarai became pregnant with Isaac and the birthright passes to him automatically.

Thus, Abram becomes Abraham (Father, to Father of Many), and Sarai becomes Sarah.

-TheE-

This is all true that it was the custom of the time, this does not mean it was the way God intended. God gave Abraham a wife, and later the promise that he would have children with her. It was his lack of faith that lead to his actions, not God's inequity.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Miss Jade
i dont think it matters how you come to the truth be it Jesus, Budda, Alah, Wicca or what ever. as long as you find it and your at peace with it.

Think what you want, but according to scripture there is only one way.

What you think does not ultimately equal the truth.

[TheEschaton]

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)


Errr. That passage was written by Paul. A man who never even met Christ.

Christ never said that. In fact, now that I think of it, I don't think Christ EVER said he was the only way. The verse I was thinking of earlier was where Jesus said something to the effect of, "Those of you who eat of this meal, and drink of this cup, shall be filled evermore, and have their thirst satisfied".

That verse merely says he's a way to salvation, by no means does it say he's the only way.

This is why I dislike Paul, BTW. People accept him as the be-all and end-all of Christian theology, when, in fact, he was just a man. A man who persecuted Christians until his conversion.

-TheE-

[Nakiro]

Paul may have just been a man, but what he wrote were the teachings of Christ as documented by hundreds of those who heard him. Yes, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

If you disagree with John, well, I'm sorry, but that does not mean it is not Biblical truth.

[TheEschaton]

Biblical truth has a way of being highly untruthful.

[Miss Jade]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Miss Jade
i dont think it matters how you come to the truth be it Jesus, Budda, Alah, Wicca or what ever. as long as you find it and your at peace with it.

Think what you want, but according to scripture there is only one way.

What you think does not ultimately equal the truth.
So says you
________
Testarossa (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_Testarossa)

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Biblical truth has a way of being highly untruthful.

Any evidence to this?

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Miss Jade

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Miss Jade
i dont think it matters how you come to the truth be it Jesus, Budda, Alah, Wicca or what ever. as long as you find it and your at peace with it.

Think what you want, but according to scripture there is only one way.

What you think does not ultimately equal the truth.
So says you

Right... I am not going to try to argue with someone whose entire premisis on what they believe is concieved by, "I thought about it a long time, and this was what I think, so of course it must be true."

Yes, it is what I believe. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but ultimately we can not both be correct.

Jesus can not say, "I am the only way."
and then
You can not say, "There are many ways."
and both statements remain true.

Between you and Christ, I'd take Christ.

[Miss Jade]

Right... I am not going to try to argue with someone whose entire premisis on what they believe is concieved by, "I thought about it a long time, and this was what I think, so of course it must be true."

Yes, it is what I believe. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but ultimately we can not both be correct.

Jesus can not say, "I am the only way."
and then
You can not say, "There are many ways."
and both statements remain true.

Between you and Christ, I'd take Christ.
if Jesus was real... Its not the name it whats behind the name but you'll figure that out someday.
________
CHEAP GLASS PIPES (http://glasspipes.net/)

[Nakiro]

So now Jesus isn't real? And his statement that He is the only way to heaven isn't important?

[Drew2]

Speaking of religion...

Is it wrong for me to attend Church/youth group soley because I want to get closer to someone? Like... pretend to be interested/believe just to win some points with said person?

Not that I would do that... if it's wrong, that is...

[Mint]

Originally posted by Nakiro
So now Jesus isn't real? And his statement that He is the only way to heaven isn't important?

You know Nakiro, and I do not mean this in a critical way at all, it seems that you would rather preach than debate and I think that might be why some stay away from the 'religious' threads. Just my opinion. There is nothing wrong with preaching but some people only want that in their church pulpits. You have very strong beliefs which I have stated before I find admirable however, so do many others and trying to make them 'wrong' is not a way to win people over to your beliefs. Honestly not meant to criticize your posts at all and I hope you don't take it as such.

[Nakiro]

Interesting question. My response would be that you are likely to be disapointed with what you find, but keep going anyway because there might be other things in store for you later.

I orginally went to youth group just to make friends. I didn't have any real interest in God at the time, but it turned out to be a good thing for me. I think God gives us incenitives to seek activities that may eventually lead us to Him.

So yes, keep going.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Tayre
Is it wrong for me to attend Church/youth group soley because I want to get closer to someone? Like... pretend to be interested/believe just to win some points with said person?

Yes. Not because of anything having to do with religion. It's just wrong to deceive a person when it's about something she most likely is very fervent about.

Just be honest. Tell her you like her and ask her out.

Raven

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by Nakiro
So now Jesus isn't real? And his statement that He is the only way to heaven isn't important?

You know Nakiro, and I do not mean this in a critical way at all, it seems that you would rather preach than debate and I think that might be why some stay away from the 'religious' threads. Just my opinion. There is nothing wrong with preaching but some people only want that in their church pulpits. You have very strong beliefs which I have stated before I find admirable however, so do many others and trying to make them 'wrong' is not a way to win people over to your beliefs. Honestly not meant to criticize your posts at all and I hope you don't take it as such.

Mint, you can not debate a persons' beliefs when they are founded only on their own orginal thought.

I am only debating what I believe by using what scripture indicates.

I'm really not trying to win anyone over. I don't think that is possible for me to do over an internet forum. I am realistic about that. However, I won't stand by and hear someone say that Jesus WOULD say that there are many ways to heaven when he said JUST THE OPPOSITE.

If debating such a thing using scripture makes it preaching, well, I don't know how else to present the truth I believe.

We can all talk about what we believe about religion, but in the end if it does not come from a source of divine teaching(s), then we are all wasting our time.

[Drew2]

I've never stated what I believed or didn't believe. I simply showed interest in going and then invited myself to go along next time.

Whether I believe or not isn't the issue, yet. I haven't been asked if I do or not. What I CAN do is just go, listen, learn, then accept/reject the beliefs and move on.

I'm willing to make an effort and find my spirituality for this person. I'm just not sure if making it unclear whether I believe already or not is deceitful.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Tayre
Is it wrong for me to attend Church/youth group soley because I want to get closer to someone? Like... pretend to be interested/believe just to win some points with said person?

Yes. Not because of anything having to do with religion. It's just wrong to deceive a person when it's about something she most likely is very fervent about.

Just be honest. Tell her you like her and ask her out.

Raven

Honesty is definately a good thing too. But I would not throw away the opportunity to learn something about God just because you are, at first, unresponsive or not intersted in hearing it.

Really, I think you must have some interest otherwise you probably would just say, "Hey, I'm not up for all this religion stuf. How about we just go out?".

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Nakiro
We can all talk about what we believe about religion, but in the end if it does not come from a source of divine teaching(s), then we are all wasting our time.

Funny how this almost always translates as meaning 'MY source of divine teaching.'

Raven

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Tayre
I've never stated what I believed or didn't believe. I simply showed interest in going and then invited myself to go along next time.

Whether I believe or not isn't the issue, yet. I haven't been asked if I do or not. What I CAN do is just go, listen, learn, then accept/reject the beliefs and move on.

I'm willing to make an effort and find my spirituality for this person. I'm just not sure if making it unclear whether I believe already or not is deceitful.

Tayre, if you were a following member of the youth group I attended, and you said one day, "Look, I know we've talked about a lot of things, and I'm kind of interested, but I'm not sure if I believe a lot of it." people would say, "Its okay if you don't believe it all right now. Stick around."

Actually we have had this happen before. The key to good ministry isn't shoving the gospel down peoples throats; its to present them with an unfounded, genuine love and compassion.

When you do that, people will start to wonder why, and eventually they will come to understand.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Nakiro
We can all talk about what we believe about religion, but in the end if it does not come from a source of divine teaching(s), then we are all wasting our time.

Funny how this almost always translates as meaning 'MY source of divine teaching.'

Raven

Yes it is. But atleast I am quoting a source other than my own personal thoughts.

EDIT: Seeing how this thread is based upon Christian teachings, and people are presenting arguments against Chrisitanity as being hypocritical and in itself unbliblical, I thought it would be approperiate to discuess these issues within the context of the religious teachings in which they are being argued.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Nakiro]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Yes it is. But atleast I am quoting a source other than my own personal thoughts.

Personally, I respect someone a lot more if they've come to their own conclusions based on their own reasoning no matter what some book says.

Raven

[Mint]

Some modern zealous christians forget that Christ preached with gentleness and compassion. Being bludgeoned with scripture is not really comparable.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Nakiro
Yes it is. But atleast I am quoting a source other than my own personal thoughts.

Personally, I respect someone a lot more if they've come to their own conclusions based on their own reasoning no matter what some book says.

Raven

You can conclude whatever you want to conclude, but that in no way varifies it as being the truth.

[Drew2]

I've been to church.. to youth groups.. to CCD... you name it. And ever since I can remember, everything said/taught would go in one ear and out the other. I would pay attention, and instantly reject everything I heard with "Yeah right" or "There has to be a logical explanation for that. God doesn't have anything to do with it."

I don't know. I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be another "in one ear out the other" thing. Maybe I can figure a few things out or something.

<selfish>
Or at least get a date out of the deal.
</selfish>

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mint
Some modern zealous christians forget that Christ preached with gentleness and compassion. Being bludgeoned with scripture is not really comparable.

If this is an inference to me, let it be known that my intent is not to preach, or win people over for Christ. I have already stated that I do not think that is possible regardless of what I say over a message board.

My intent is to provide answers to other peoples' questions by using truth as it is presented in the Bible, which I believe is the word of God, or literally, "God breathed".

If the response is "that is not what I believe because it is not what I THINK is the truth" well then there isn't much I can do over a message board to convince you.

[Hulkein]

Closest God will come to getting you a date is the girls at Church, usually a lot of pretty good looking ones...

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Nakiro
You can conclude whatever you want to conclude, but that in no way varifies it as being the truth.

And you can insist the Bible is the one and only truth but that in no way makes it so. So citing it as the ultimate of all sources it pretty useless unless everyone accepts your starting premise.

This is of course what makes arguing religion futile. If someone allows nothing as being true that in any way contradicts his/her 'divine source', any discussion with that person devolves to 'I have faith and you're going to burn in hell'.

Thank 'god' for the separation of church and state in this country and may it never be weakened in any way.

Raven

[Nakiro]

Still though, if you have a question about Chrisitianity or scripture, I will answer it in the context of scripture.

If you don't believe the scripture then there really isn't much I can argue with you about it.

Good luck Tayre! I'm sure someone is praying for you.

[Mint]

Well, thank you for sharing your reasoning Nakiro. Personally I like hearing others beliefs and feared you might feel it was necessary to 'show them the way' so to speak which only alienates in my opinion.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Nakiro
You can conclude whatever you want to conclude, but that in no way varifies it as being the truth.

And you can insist the Bible is the one and only truth but that in no way makes it so. So citing it as the ultimate of all sources it pretty useless unless everyone accepts your starting premise.

This is of course what makes arguing religion futile. If someone allows nothing as being true that in any way contradicts his/her 'divine source', any discussion with that person devolves to 'I have faith and you're going to burn in hell'.

Thank 'god' for the separation of church and state in this country and may it never be weakened in any way.

Raven

I agree.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mint
Well, thank you for sharing your reasoning Nakiro. Personally I like hearing others beliefs and feared you might feel it was necessary to 'show them the way' so to speak which only alienates in my opinion.

Fortunately for us all, there is no way to logicaly prove God to people. Who would want to worship a god that forced people to believe in him?

No, part of the beautiful nature of God is he declines to give absolute proof of Himself so that those who wish to know, seek, and understand him will do so on their own accord.

A God who gave you no option but to believe in him would not be a loving one, in my opinion.

I only want to 'show the way' to people who have questions. Its like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Likewise, if someone is not thirsity for the knowledge of scripture, or is unwilling to even consider it to be an absolute truth, there is no way to effectively share it.

EDIT: I'd like to add that although one day scripture states that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess the glory of God, this time will occur after a point in which all people have been presented with the opportunity to seek God.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Nakiro]

[TheEschaton]

Nakiro, throughout the Bible there are "absolute truths" which cannot possibly be true. Most are in the Old Testament, but it exists in the NT as well. Tsa`ah had a post about some of those inaccuracies in the Mel Gibson thread a few weeks ago.

As for John's Gospel, if you read any Biblical studies, you would know John is taken as an "artistic rendering", if you will. No one (in the biblical scholar community) believes Jesus actually said what was in John, because John was the last Gospel to be written, yet A) had a different chronological order of events as the three synoptic gospels, B) had events which were not in any of the three synoptic gospels, and C) completely made no mention of events which were in ALL three synoptic gospels, usually because it went against the theme of John. What was John's theme? The fulfillment of the Scripture, "In the beginning, there was the Word."

That aside, I find it impossible to find the Bible literally written by God, the idea of "God breathed". I do think the Bible, like most things, is divinely inspired - but poorly translated by its writers. I mean, could we possibly understand the language of God? Could we possibly comprehend God's thought process? You may argue that God wrote through the Bible writers, but then shouldn't God be responsible for those who hear it? If God wrote it divinely, but doesn't give us a divine filter to which to read it - then it is pointless.

I don't believe that God wrote it, though. God inspired it, but it's like Beauty: poets and poems throughout the ages have tried to write about beauty, to capture it in describable words, but the very nature of beauty makes it indescribable. Some poets come close, but even the close poets are very, very far away from the real Truth. Beauty is purely an experiential thing - and I believe God is too.

And if that doesn't convince you, here's what I would say: The Council of Trent put together the new testament. Do you think they were divinely directed as well? Because they turned Christianity from a religion, to a political force, making the Roman Empire the Holy Roman Empire, and starting 1500 years of Christian terrorism.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

Although it is debated amongst rabbis even today, it is commonly accepted that "sheol" refers to the grave, not the after life.

I think most people involved with dictionaries and encyclopedias are idiots and morons at heart.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Although it is debated amongst rabbis even today, it is commonly accepted that "sheol" refers to the grave, not the after life.

I think most people involved with dictionaries and encyclopedias are idiots and morons at heart.

well, I guess I could have googled it instead. Um was I just the recipient of a Tsa'ah insult. Heh, go me.

[HarmNone]

Heh. I think Tsa`ah was casting aspersions at Mr. Webster and company, Mint. ;)

HarmNone

[Mint]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Heh. I think Tsa`ah was casting aspersions at Mr. Webster and company, Mint. ;)

HarmNone

DAMMIT. I thought I had earned one of his insults finally...I am crushed.

[Tsa`ah]

What Harm said you fruit cake. :P

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Mint]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Although it is debated amongst rabbis even today, it is commonly accepted that "sheol" refers to the grave, not the after life.

I think most people involved with dictionaries and encyclopedias are idiots and morons at heart.

Regardless of who the insult was intended for (and I choose to believe it was me btw) my reason for even bringing it up is that the modern christian evangical idea of Hell as a place of torment everlasting is based on a faulty translation. And that Christianity is not the only religion that holds the idea of an afterlife filled with suffering.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
What Harm said you fruit cake. :P

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Tsa`ah]

Just humor me, heh.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Nakiro, throughout the Bible there are "absolute truths" which cannot possibly be true. Most are in the Old Testament, but it exists in the NT as well. Tsa`ah had a post about some of those inaccuracies in the Mel Gibson thread a few weeks ago.

As for John's Gospel, if you read any Biblical studies, you would know John is taken as an "artistic rendering", if you will. No one (in the biblical scholar community) believes Jesus actually said what was in John, because John was the last Gospel to be written, yet A) had a different chronological order of events as the three synoptic gospels, B) had events which were not in any of the three synoptic gospels, and C) completely made no mention of events which were in ALL three synoptic gospels, usually because it went against the theme of John. What was John's theme? The fulfillment of the Scripture, "In the beginning, there was the Word."

That aside, I find it impossible to find the Bible literally written by God, the idea of "God breathed". I do think the Bible, like most things, is divinely inspired - but poorly translated by its writers. I mean, could we possibly understand the language of God? Could we possibly comprehend God's thought process? You may argue that God wrote through the Bible writers, but then shouldn't God be responsible for those who hear it? If God wrote it divinely, but doesn't give us a divine filter to which to read it - then it is pointless.

I don't believe that God wrote it, though. God inspired it, but it's like Beauty: poets and poems throughout the ages have tried to write about beauty, to capture it in describable words, but the very nature of beauty makes it indescribable. Some poets come close, but even the close poets are very, very far away from the real Truth. Beauty is purely an experiential thing - and I believe God is too.

And if that doesn't convince you, here's what I would say: The Council of Trent put together the new testament. Do you think they were divinely directed as well? Because they turned Christianity from a religion, to a political force, making the Roman Empire the Holy Roman Empire, and starting 1500 years of Christian terrorism.

-TheE-

I find it impossible to accept the necessity for Christ's death if there are other options for recieving salvation personally. Though as I mentioned before, if you can not take scripture as an absolute truth, then asking a question relevant to it is a practice in frusteration; you won't believe the answer presented to you anyway.

Though I fully understand that men are falliable, I do belive that scripture is devinly inspired and god breathed as I have stated earlier.

And to say that we are not able to understand the thoughts and nature of God is accurate, but that does not make God incapable of using us to record such things.

As for understanding it, you are right. It is not an easy thing to do (obviously). Once again though, that does not make us incapable of doing so, nor does it make God incapable of revealing things to us through scripture.

As for your response about the Council of Trent, I wish I knew more to discuess this issue with you, but I do not. My faith is simply that God has taken it upon Himself to preserve for us all that is necessary.

EDIT: Wanted to add that many consider the "devine filter" you mentioned in your post to be the Holy Spirit, which arrived at the pentacost after the death of Christ, considering the Kindgom of God on earth.

And I have experienced first-hand the Holy Spirit move people in ways previously thought to be impossible. But again, its a matter of the old saying, You can bring a horse to water, but you can not make it drink. God would not press himself upon you to do something you would be incapable of doing.

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Nakiro]

[Satira]

I love TheEschaton. Thank you for posting exactly what I wanted to post. And thank you for bringing up the ridiculous use of politics in religion.

I suppose it's just a coincidence that we have easter eggs and children sit on a bunny's lap around Easter. Those things probably have nothing do to with old Pagan customs. :rolleyes:

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
I love TheEschaton. Thank you for posting exactly what I wanted to post. And thank you for bringing up the ridiculous use of politics in religion.

I suppose it's just a coincidence that we have easter eggs and children sit on a bunny's lap around Easter. Those things probably have nothing do to with old Pagan customs. :rolleyes:

Easter bunnies are not something I can say I agree with really, you're right there :rolleyes:

[Satira]

Glad to hear you stick by what you believe in at least.

Don't put up a christmas tree, either. :D

[HarmNone]

Heh. Valentine's Day would have to get the sack, as well, Satira. Roman Pagans called it Lupercalia. ;)

Oddly enough, as a Pagan I was never interested in the correlation between the Christian Holidays and the old Pagan festivals, so had never really paid it much mind. I have recently been looking into some of them, and it really is quite interesting. :)

HarmNone

[Ravenstorm]

I heard something about Ash Wednesday and Aphrodite but never looked into it myself. Research and report on the subject please. ;)

Raven

[HarmNone]

Here's a link to a bit about Lupercalia.

http://www.dailylobo.com/news/2004/02/13/Opinion/Columnvalentines.Day.Has.Pagan.Roots-607006.shtml

I shall look into the Aphrodite/Ash Wednesday connection! :D

HarmNone thinks her folk may have been robbed!

[HarmNone]

Hee! Found one!

http://www.ekkcom.com/easter.htm

This is gettin good! :D

HarmNone now knows her folk have been robbed!

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
HarmNone now knows her folk have been robbed!

St. Brigid = Brigid the goddess

Raven

[HarmNone]

Cool, eh, Raven? I really do not know why this never caught my interest before. :D

HarmNone is now very interested

[Mint]

I am not a pagan but found this kind of cool:

http://www.fjordstone.com/fjo/generator.html

It is a pagan name generator, good for a few chuckles.

[HarmNone]

Ish! Darn my grandmother for never telling me I needed a special name to dance naked in the moonlight! :D

HarmNone has been dancing nameless

[Satira]

You're disappointing me HarmNone! I thought we were sisters.

You should be well educated in all areas of the religion as a Pagan. It is a religious path that is often put down and has many false accusatory statements and ideas associated with it that you should be able correct.

Arm yourself with the the power to be able to stand up for yourself and really appreciate the true beauty of the religion itself in all aspects.

:medieval:

[Satira]

Wait a minute, you didn't even know about craft names?


You're killing me here.

Edited to say:

That name generator makes me want to throw up. Those are the kind of names you see 15 year old goth kids choose for their craft names.

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Lady Satira]

[Drew2]

Your pagan name is

Odin Thunder Moonchild


SUCKAS.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Edited to say:

That name generator makes me want to throw up. Those are the kind of names you see 15 year old goth kids choose for their craft names.


I think it is a tongue in cheek kind of thing. If I was a pagan I would spend too much time laughing at the people that insisted I call them any of those names.

edited cause I messed up the quote again.



[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Mint]

[Satira]

I got the point of it. It still makes me want to vomit.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
I got the point of it. It still makes me want to vomit.

hm, guess humor is in the eye of the beholder.

[100% Wool]

my pagan name was....

Tiger Woodspryte Elven


....rigggggggggght

[Satira]

See? Obnoxious. People won't ever get the real purpose of having a craft name by generating it off of some lame ass website.

At least have something that explains it instead of leaving everyone to think its some geeky crap.

[Nakiro]

Elric Bard Bran

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
See? Obnoxious. People won't ever get the real purpose of having a craft name by generating it off of some lame ass website.

At least have something that explains it instead of leaving everyone to think its some geeky crap.

Youre just spreading sunshine everywhere you go tonight.

[Satira]

Oh good. Now even the Christian has a creepy generated craft name.

[Mint]

I am surprised Satira, I thought you had a sense of humor. Apparently I was mistaken.

[Satira]

Oh I take it back. I'm glad people think my craft name is Druida Nightwind Sage.

You know, I don't really care as much as I'm making it out. Its just a matter of mocking a religion I know that no one else isn't going to stand up for.

If you put something up that was obviously making fun of a more practiced religion I'm sure someone would bitch about that.

I'm just doing my part in the bitchy scheme of things.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Oh I take it back. I'm glad people think my craft name is Druida Nightwind Sage.

You know, I don't really care as much as I'm making it out. Its just a matter of mocking a religion I know that no one else isn't going to stand up for.

If you put something up that was obviously making fun of a more practiced religion I'm sure someone would bitch about that.

I'm just doing my part in the bitchy scheme of things.

It was not meant to mock. I don't mock others beliefs. I apologize if you took it that way. However slamming Nakiro for trying it out was unnecessary and distasteful in my opinion.

[Satira]

As was your post on the generator, in mine.

And apologies to Nakiro if he took it personally.

[Caiylania]

<<Fortunately for us all, there is no way to logicaly prove God to people. Who would want to worship a god that forced people to believe in him?>>

I'll put it in the perspective as I see it.

I didn't meet my father until I was 16, so imagine this...

Say at one year old (he did not do any of this, just an idea) he wrote a letter to my mom to give me, saying he loves me so much, but he can't be with me. In that letter is a whole list of things he thinks I should do, how I should behave, and what I have to believe in order to ever see him.

From that time on he never writes, never calls, I never hear of or from him again. My Mom tries to tell me over and over how much he loves me, points to the letter he wrote and says look! That proves he loves you! He just doesn't want to force his love on you. He wants to see if you will follow his letter and EARN a place with him.

What kind of father would that be? HE made ME. I am HIS CHILD. yet IIIIIIII have to scrape and believe in someone I HAVE NEVER MET just to see him?

Would you be that type of father?

[Satira]

No and I like the analogy.

[Myshel]

Originally posted by RangerD1


It's been about one year since my grandfather died. We weren't close, but I keep crying. It's not continuous, just brief spots here and there.


Pussy


About a year ago, I saw my father, the strongest man who has ever lived, cry for the first time in my life. And it makes me miserable that I can't be strong for him, to whom I owe so much. I'm going home today for break, but I don't know what to do, what to say, how to help. He's been pretty heavily anti-religious for some time now, pretty much ever since he got sick a lot (although he's better now). I have nothing.

You shouldn't be expected to be strong for your father, if he is unable to find the strength within himself, then no one can give it to him.

Where is it written you can't cry if your strong? Crying is a physical release of emotion and stress, not a barameter of your manliness. People who can cry are much more emotionally strong.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Myshel

Where is it written you can't cry if your strong? Crying is a physical release of emotion and stress, not a barameter of your manliness. People who can cry are much more emotionally strong.


I totally agree.

[HarmNone]

Heh. I think Satira had her tongue somewhat in her cheek. :D

One thing that should be recognized, however. Not all Pagans are Neo-Pagans. The Neo-Pagan path has quite a bit of Wicca mixed into it. It is the Wiccans who are enamored of "craft names", not the Pagans. ;)

In reality, a Pagan is simply one who does not adhere to a one-God-based religion. There are nearly as many paths in Paganism as there are Pagans. Most Pagans today are neo-Pagans.

HarmNone, on Pagans, Wiccans, Neo-Pagans, and the many paths to where one might be going (or coming from)

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by HarmNone]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Caiylania
<<Fortunately for us all, there is no way to logicaly prove God to people. Who would want to worship a god that forced people to believe in him?>>

I'll put it in the perspective as I see it.

I didn't meet my father until I was 16, so imagine this...

Say at one year old (he did not do any of this, just an idea) he wrote a letter to my mom to give me, saying he loves me so much, but he can't be with me. In that letter is a whole list of things he thinks I should do, how I should behave, and what I have to believe in order to ever see him.

From that time on he never writes, never calls, I never hear of or from him again. My Mom tries to tell me over and over how much he loves me, points to the letter he wrote and says look! That proves he loves you! He just doesn't want to force his love on you. He wants to see if you will follow his letter and EARN a place with him.

What kind of father would that be? HE made ME. I am HIS CHILD. yet IIIIIIII have to scrape and believe in someone I HAVE NEVER MET just to see him?

Would you be that type of father?

God will introduce himself to you on several occasions.
" Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door,
I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."
Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

You can not earn God's love, respect, or attention.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
(Isaiah 64:6)

"all who rely on oabserving the law are under a curse, for it is written:"cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith" The law is not based on faith; on the contary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is wirtten: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we migth recieve the promise of the Spirit."
(Galatians 3:10 and following)

The death of Christ though was the attonement for your sin, and through it you are capable of reconnecting with God in this life and the next. No, you do not have to be without sin in order to commune with God, but doing so removes a huge communication barrier.


Fortunately there is grace. What is grace? Grace is recieving what you do not diserve.
Romans 5: 6 - 8
"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerlesss, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, through for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this; while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Edit to add also that I'd like to add more but I have class, so maybe later after some response(s).


[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Nakiro]

Edited again to cite Galatians.

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Nakiro]

[Caiylania]

Once again, you refer to a letter he wrote. I have called to God, and he's never answered.

Your going to say, yes he has. In ways you may not realize.

Well, if my Dad that I've never seen secretly helps me get a job and then wants me to KNOW that, just BECAUSE, and honor HIM for it, well...... um no. I'm not pyshic.

[Nakiro]

I'm curious, what did you ask? While not every plea is always answered, there are still reasons why they are not.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tayre
I'm willing to make an effort and find my spirituality for this person.Check all your pockets. :)
Originally posted by Nakiro
there is no way to logicaly prove God to people.Nobody likes Descartes but me, evidently. It's probably his fault for having a girly name.
Easter bunnies are not something I can say I agree with reallyA few spices and they taste just like those Burger King chicken strips.
Originally posted by Harmnone
HarmNone thinks her folk may have been robbed! The way I heard it was we (Christians) were trying to convert the pagans, and figured it'd be easier if they didn't have to change around their holy dates, so we made up Jesus' birthday and so on.
Originally posted by Lady Satira
Now even the Christian I know it's easy to miss, but I'm a Christian too. Nakiro isn't the only one. :D
Originally posted by Caiylania
Would you be that type of father? If my mere presence would cause my children to weep uncontrollably or possibly die, then yes. Yes I would.
Originally posted by Myshel
Where is it written you can't cry if your strong? It's in the Big Book of Guy Rules, right under "Never ever look at the guy using the urinal next to you."

My brother has this song on his playlist: Maroon5 - She Will Be Loved. It's heavenly. :saint: I highly recommend it.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[
Originally posted by Myshel
Where is it written you can't cry if your strong? It's in the Big Book of Guy Rules, right under "Never ever look at the guy using the urinal next to you."

My brother has this song on his playlist: Maroon5 - She Will Be Loved. It's heavenly. :saint: I highly recommend it.

John 11:35 (shortest verse in the Bible)

Jesus wept.

[Galleazzo]

Hokay, here goes. From The Thunder [13:12-13]:



He it is Who shows you the lightning causing fear and hope and (Who) brings up the heavy cloud.

And the thunder declares His glory with His praise, and the angels too for awe of Him; and He sends the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He pleases, yet they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in prowess.

I'm not a Muslim or anything. Just thought I'd quote from the Koran.

;)

[Mint]

I've never read the Koran but it is on my to do list. Wish some muslims would weigh in here.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Harmnone
HarmNone thinks her folk may have been robbed! The way I heard it was we (Christians) were trying to convert the pagans, and figured it'd be easier if they didn't have to change around their holy dates, so we made up Jesus' birthday and so on.

In other words, you guys sorta...ummm...lied? :D

HarmNone is starting to wonder

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
You're disappointing me HarmNone! I thought we were sisters.

You should be well educated in all areas of the religion as a Pagan. It is a religious path that is often put down and has many false accusatory statements and ideas associated with it that you should be able correct.

Arm yourself with the the power to be able to stand up for yourself and really appreciate the true beauty of the religion itself in all aspects.

:medieval:

Sorry to disappoint you, hon, but we see things somewhat differently. I have never felt the need to "stand up for" myself. I am what I am, I believe what I believe, and I apologize to nobody for that. Nor, do I encourage them to believe as I do. Their spiritual life belongs to them, not to me.

My grandmother was Pagan long before it became the thing to do. It was from her I learned. It was with her I grew. While I know a bit of the neo-Pagan paths, they are not my path. Since I was raised to be Pagan from birth, and was not raised in a Christian country, I had no reason to be interested in the correlation between the Pagan festival days and Christian holidays. It simply never came up. :)

I am aware that neo-Pagans follow a path that includes much of Wicca within its teachings. However, there are many other Pagan paths which do not include any Wicca at all. The Roman and Greek paths, generally, do not...unless, they are neo. True Celtic and Welsh Pagans are not inclined toward Wicca, either. ;)

What is important to me, and what guides me in my interrelationships with people is the belief that each much follow his/her own path. While I do not follow Wicca, I do appreciate their rede:

"An' it harm none, do as thou wilt."

HarmNone

[Skirmisher]

Christianity has a long history of doing that HN.

It is in a way one of their "strengths" if you look at this from a sheer numbers point of view. They take some aspects from the native populations own religions and pull them into the fold of Christianity. The same was done with the indiginous population of the new world in Central and South America.

It helped smooth the transition to Christianty which in turn helped the expansion minded governments of the time maintain control over a population numbering far greater than their new rulers.

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Skirmisher]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
In other words, you guys sorta...ummm...lied?Can one lie if one does not know the truth? (trying to be Socratic, did I get it right?)

[HarmNone]

The reasons why they did what they did are pretty obvious when one looks at it from an historical viewpoint, Skirm. The best thing to get someone to do something he/she is reluctant to do is to disguise that "something" to make it look more appealing. :D

HarmNone

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by HarmNone
In other words, you guys sorta...ummm...lied?Can one lie if one does not know the truth? (trying to be Socratic, did I get it right?)

If those who fabricated these falsehoods did not know the truth, how were they able to fabricate such effective falsehoods? Hmmmm?

HarmNone, who does not manipulate easily

[Satira]

HarmNone- Honestly the assumption was a bad one on my part. The phrase "harm none" is put in the Wiccan rede and I was assuming, based on your name, that you were Wiccan yourself. So I apologize!

I'm not neo-Pagan and I tend to shy away from MOST of the neo-Pagan practices, because they are just that. New. I might as well make up my own ideas and beliefs and so I do. Sounds like you do too! That's great.

I was honestly just trying to look out for someone who practiced Wicca, due to the fact that is it so misunderstood. I practiced Wicca for a LONG time when I was younger and I faced a lot of conflicts with it.

I just overreacted. It really doesn't matter if you looked into the history of Paganism or not. However, it IS interesting.

[Latrinsorm]

Lol, I meant we didn't know precisely when Jesus was born, so it's a bit much to say we were "lying" when we made up the date he was born. The coincidence with the Yule isn't a coincidence at all, that's not the lying I was talking about.

No meat today. :( I could go for some tacos, too.

[Bobmuhthol]

Religion is for squares.

[Artha]

I have called to God, and he's never answered.

"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

[Matthew 6: 8-13]


[Edited to add emphasis]

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Artha]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Lol, I meant we didn't know precisely when Jesus was born, so it's a bit much to say we were "lying" when we made up the date he was born. The coincidence with the Yule isn't a coincidence at all, that's not the lying I was talking about.

No meat today. :( I could go for some tacos, too.

I do not know the precise latitude and longitude of my naval, either. I, therefore, make it a practice never to tell anyone it is in the middle of my back! :D

HarmNone, teasing Latrinsorm

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Caiylania
Would you be that type of father? If my mere presence would cause my children to weep uncontrollably or possibly die, then yes. Yes I would. [/quote]

Let's see...... he 'talked' to Abraham, Moses, Noah, sent angels to lots of other people in the Bible.

Oh, and no one died Looking at Jesus, in fact, he healed didn't he?

So then why 'no word from God' for the last 2000 years?

My point stands, that kind of father would be a horrible father, and arrogant.

[Artha]

Perhaps you haven't been looking in the right places. Sticking to the father metaphore, he calls, but you ignore it, thinking it's a telemarketer. Or he comes to your house and knocks on your door, but you ignore it, thinking it's a door-to-door salesman.


Oh, and no one died Looking at Jesus, in fact, he healed didn't he?

Jesus was not God Himself, he was God in human form...God placed in a package we could comprehend and understand.

[Xcalibur]

I think that's the basic difference from Catholique and Protestant people, no?

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Artha
Perhaps you haven't been looking in the right places. Sticking to the father metaphore, he calls, but you ignore it, thinking it's a telemarketer. Or he comes to your house and knocks on your door, but you ignore it, thinking it's a door-to-door salesman.

No, I answered the door, and it was a salesman.

YOur going back to you must believe, have faith....

MY point is that, HE created us and has some responsibilty to prove his love, just as a father does.

My daughter does not have to prove HER love to me for me to be a presense in her life and help her whenever needed.

[Artha]

Yes, you have to have faith. If God came down and proved himself to you, you would not have free will. If God left no doubt as to whether he existed, you would be forced to believe.

God loves you too much to take away your free will.

[Myshel]

Faith, when I see an exceptionally beautiful sunset, or my child lives though a car wreak, or I'm just feeling happy, I say Thank you God. That the beautiful sunset happened to a non-believer also, makes no difference to me. I enjoy my conversations with God, it makes me feel happy and connected.

When bad things happen to me, I veiw them as lessons to be learned, that they too will pass. I remember the beautiful sunset or the happiness that my children are well and happy. It might be hard to give Thanks but there are so many other things in life that are good. Hard lessons in life make us who we are, and talking them over with God, not only gives us insite into our selves but the wisdom to correct or learn to live with it. I've always felt guilt is God's voice telling me that you did wrong, why, and don't repeat it, or if you do you will feel lousy about it.

I'm not a church goer, I"ve been in the past, and at times in my life been fanatical about it. Now I feel at ease in my church of my home, or on the beach, watching and giving Thanks for the beautiful sunset. Saying thank you for just feeling happy.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Artha
Yes, you have to have faith. If God came down and proved himself to you, you would not have free will. If God left no doubt as to whether he existed, you would be forced to believe.

God loves you too much to take away your free will.

That is exactly what I was replying to in my first post on this.

So my dad being in my life FORCES me to love and believe in him?

That just sounds dumb to me.

I would rather my father be in my life, and choose to love what he does for me.

Than for him to be 'a letter' he wrote me when I was a baby. Please reread my first post.

[Artha]

So my dad being in my life FORCES me to love and believe in him?

If God revealed Himself to you, you would be no more able to deny his existance than to deny the fact that you breathe.


As to your first post, all I see is mistaken conclusions based on fragments of scripture.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Artha]

[Nakiro]

Yep.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Artha

So my dad being in my life FORCES me to love and believe in him?

If God revealed Himself to you, you would be no more able to deny his existance than to deny the fact that you breathe.


As to your first post, all I see is mistaken conclusions based on fragments of scripture.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Artha]

That would be great, would save me and a whole lot more other people a lot of anguish and agonizing.

Is it taking away our free will to be forced to breath air? Eat food?

If God is our soul's food, then that to me would be no more force in seeing him or hearing him than when gravity holds us down so we don't die in space.

[Nakiro]

You know exactly what is best for your daughter; what to eat, where to go, who to talk to, what kind of education she should have, what to wear, who to marry, how to choose a contraceptive, when to have children, what to name them, virtually every decision in her life.

If you loved her, would you make these decisions for her, or allow her to make them herself?

[Caiylania]

She would make them herself. But it is not relevant.

Me being in her life is NOT FORCING her to love me. Or TAKING her free will away.

Any more than having to breath does.

[Artha]

Me being in her life is NOT FORCING her to love me.

No, but I'll bet she admits you exist.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Artha

Me being in her life is NOT FORCING her to love me.

No, but I'll bet she admits you exist.

Ish! Of course, she admits her mother exists. She can see and touch her mother!

That argument has more holes than swiss cheese, Artha. ;)

HarmNone

[Artha]

That's not what I'm saying, HarmNone.

If you could see and touch God, you would not be able to deny he existed. Thus, eroded free will.

[HarmNone]

Heh. I was just poking at you, silly. Hence, the winkie-face. ;)

HarmNone

[Latrinsorm]

Artha is cool.

"It's not always rainbows and butterflies
It's compromise that moves us along. Yeah,
My heart is full and my door's always open
You come any time you want, yeah."
- Maroon 5 (hella stupid name, hella good music)

I saw Passion of the Christ, and although I was sort of prepared (because I had previously been informed of the stuff Jesus went through) it was quite the emotionally charged event. I recommend that everyone see it, preferably with family members, and without eye makeup for the ladies (you too Bob) (haha jk lol) because I'm reasonably sure there isn't a person alive who won't cry at some point during that movie, and eye makeup looks bad when people cry through it. Mel is a pretty impressive director guy. Let's start calling him the Shakespeare of our time. That would be cool.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Artha

Me being in her life is NOT FORCING her to love me.

No, but I'll bet she admits you exist.

Ish! Of course, she admits her mother exists. She can see and touch her mother!

That argument has more holes than swiss cheese, Artha. ;)

HarmNone


Originally posted by Artha
That's not what I'm saying, HarmNone.

If you could see and touch God, you would not be able to deny he existed. Thus, eroded free will.


Once again I say.

That to me is like saying, My daughter seeing, touching, hearing me is taking away her free will?

Is seeing the sun everyday taking away my free will? Is breathing taking away my free will?

God giving Moses the power to part the water took away Pharoah's free will by that example.

God has taken people's free will before.

I DO NOT believe, that if God made his presense known in some irrefutable way that is removing my free will, anymore than me loving my daughter.

According to the Bible he has been in our lives before, he "imposed" himself on others before.

It would save the WORLD anguish, despair, and grief for the ABSOLUTE knowledge of God.

That wouldn't take away our free will, it would free our souls and hearts.

Do you think I LIKE having doubts on whether God exists?

The more I talk to pastors, chaplains, and even read posts here, the more I want to deny the God that for example, Artha, tries to convince me of.

If me not visiting my children caused them the anguish that the world has seen over Holy Wars and the things churches and nuttos have done in HIS name.

I would be there in a heart beat. If God exists, he should either have just stayed anonymous or appear to everyone now and then.

Otherwise we will all just keep killing each other over who / what / if He exists.

And I think all the innocents killed in these stupid wars (since religions beggining) had MORE FREE WILL taken from them than I could ever complain of if God came down to us.

Ciao.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm almost sure this won't bring you running over to my side of the argument, Caiylania, but here goes:

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I forget who said it, or if it's just one of those expressions, but I'd rather go through 80 to 100 years of intense suffering and then be happy for eternity then be unable to be happy at all. To me, free will is what makes life worth living.

You being in your daughter's presence means she can't (reasonably) deny your existence. When we sin (and I know you don't like the whole "we're all sinners" thing, so for you that we can be me and my family) we deny God. Jesus is with me in spirit always, but I can choose to deny him. What would be the point of existence if we were mindless automatans? Would you rather that suffering exist or that we don't exist at all?

[Caiylania]

So since I'm taking away my daughter's free will (Wow, I can take away something GOD gave her??? Power trip) I guess I should just turn her out.

Let her be cold, wonder if anyone loves her, if anyone cares about what she's going through. And just watch her suffer from where she can't see me.

Since suffering is what we have to do to live.

Give me a break. I'm not denying suffering helps us grow, I have suffered, trust me on that. There is a difference between suffering, and suffering alone. But thats off point.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Let's start calling him the Shakespeare of our time. That would be cool.

Erm, Shakespeare was a writer, not a director.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania
So since I'm taking away my daughter's free will A part of it, yes. Since you aren't an infinite being you can't take away all of it. Which is what God would do. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say about suffering.

edit: I :heart: your new signature. :)
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Erm, Shakespeare was a writer, not a director. Yes, but he took a lot of old stories and busted out cool renditions of them. Like Mel has done with Braveheart, the Patriot, the Passion, etc. etc. I'm not real sure if he's done screenplays of them, but if you say Braveheart, people think Gibson.

[Edited on 3-9-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<but if you say Braveheart, people think Gibson.>>

I think, "What a shitty, shitty movie. Time to kill myself."

[Drew2]

I'm sorry but that whole "If God reveals himself he takes away your free will" argument or whatever is crap. It's a cop out for why there is no physical, tangible evidence that God exists.

If I created an entire universe and put people on a planet full of a billion trillion wonderous things... I would NOT let them fumble around for millions of years trying to figure out who the hell did it all. I'll take an active god (be it Buddha, Jesus, Zeus, etc.) over your "only in faith" God any day.

And before you try the "God shows you his presence everyday, you just choose not to see it" crap... No. He does not. Just because you are too blinded by your faith to look at it (whatever "he shows you") from a logical stance doesn't make me wrong or you right.

I have tried... tried tried and tried... to understand and believe in a higher power. And then I take a look around at the world... at people's lives.. at my life.. and realize that no way in hell does that book called the Bible describe any God I see here on Earth.

[Latrinsorm]

You're going to piss Dave (this guy you've never met) off by calling Buddha a god, Tayre. But I'm intrigued by your separation of Jesus and God.

[Caiylania]

What Tayre said really.

I still am totally against this "God being in our lives would take away our free will"

God saying "Believe in me or burn in hell" takes away more free will than...

"Here I am, in your life. Touch me, see me, I am real."

That would make my life wonderful, and I would give up some free will for it just as I am glad my Mother was in my life as a child and took care of me.

But He is not here. I don't see Him, hear Him, or feel Him.

If I do something, its because I learned (with help from other humans) how to do it. Or I drove my self to accomplish it.

I'm tired of "If I did something, GOD DID it, not me"

"If something bad happens, then its not God's fault."

Its one way or the other. We can't give God credit for everything good we do, and blame ourselves for what we do wrong {SINNING}

-and thankyou, glad you like my sig-

[Latrinsorm]

Good Friday is today. :sniffle:

[Jazuela]

I haven't read all 7 pages of this topic, and only skimmed the first post. I just wanted to say, as a non-Christian, that I thank Latrine for his offer of good will toward the members of this forum.

Whatever you believe, however you implement it, a blessing of the deity of your own faith is always appreciated. One can never receive "too many" blessings, no matter what their source.

[Xcalibur]

Latrinsorm: Jesus is God? Isn't that what the protestant are saying? That the holy spirit, jesus, marie and God are the same?

That always confused me a bit.

Care to talk about the difference of that between the 2 "branches"?

[Edaarin]

How did I miss this thread...? Heh.

BUDDHA IS NOT A GOD, DAMN IT.

We all have the capacity to become something other than human (be it god or ghost), but the only way you can transcend any of that is by being human first. The goal of Buddhism is not to worship a god, to worship Buddha, or have an immortal life after death. It's about becoming more human. :grin:

/end Buddhism lesson.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Care to talk about the difference of that between the 2 "branches"? Protestants don't believe in transubstantiation (or a word that sounds very much like that) whereas Catholics do believe that the bread and water really become body and blood. It's hard to say something definitively about Protestants, because there are tons of branches. I'm pretty sure none of them have priests (they go with ministers) and their confession is a more private thing (like that's any fun) but you'd probably be better off talking with a Protestant guy.

What I wanted to talk about last night, however, was this thing I thought up. It sounds good in my head, so here goes.

When we go to Heaven, we are going to be perfectly happy. That's the deal. If I were to go to Heaven, however, I am positive I could not be completely happy if I knew that any of the people I care about were suffering. Does it make sense, therefore, that once we get through Judgment Day, everyone goes to Heaven? The only other way I can think of it working is a kind of Hindu annihilation of our personalities/selves, which I don't see as being a logical goal for he who suffered so much for us, around 1970 years and 4 hours ago.

Jesus died for us a long time ago. May his sacrifice not be in vain. Amen.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Good Friday is today. :sniffle:

My mom said this:

"The observance of Good Friday is not a mournful marking of a tragedy. Think of it rather as a reverent and respectful pause in order to honor the greatest act of love this world has or will ever see."

My mom is pretty cool so STFU all ye sinners who would mock or I will beat you to death with my bible :P

(yeah, I am still working on that whole 'love thy neighbor' thing)




[Edited on 4-10-2004 by Mint]

[imported_Kranar]

<< Let her be cold, wonder if anyone loves her, if anyone cares about what she's going through. >>

She wouldn't be left wondering if she believes. But her belief would be one of her own choosing, and not one by force.

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Brothers and sisters:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I was going to sleep a couple nights ago and as I often do I was thinking. Thinking, thinking, thinking, usually about things that wouldn't be polite to post about. I eventually came across what my mother had recently said to me in a phone conversation about Lent: She had heard a priest say (basically) Lent isn't about what you give up, it's about what you take up. And I thought, and I thought, and I thought.

I went to Mass today (that means I went to Church, Bob. The thing with the cross on top) and a response resonated within me: A broken, humbled heart, oh God, you will not scorn. The readings were about Jonah and later Jesus talking about Jonah. Jonah was kind of a goof, but he got the job done. Jonah was the guy who went to Nineveh (a naughty place) and said "Guys, you need to quit it or God will pwn you." and so the Ninevites said "Ok" and God said "U guys rox0rz, I won't pwn you" and everyone was happy (except Jonah, but he got over it). Then in the Gospel Jesus said "I'm kewler than Jonah, let's repent again" and everyone did, and they were happy too (except the Pharisees because Jesus wasn't big on hygiene) and I got to thinking, well, I'm no Jesus, but I think I could pull off a Jonah. And so I was thinking, and thinking, and thinking.

So I suggest to you, brothers and sisters, let us repent, for we are all sinners. We have all failed our God. But God will forgive those of humble heart. Honestly, I don't think I can do this on my own, I am proud, I am arrogant. As the prayer goes, "look not on our sins but on the faith of your church".

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

I reject all religion. As far as I am concerned, the majority of you missed the entire point of what organized religion claims to profess.

I do believe in God, however. As the Great Designer of Everything Governing Our Universe and Beyond.

Thank you for the sentiment though. I'll throw a sincere peace for you and yours, and everyone else on Earth, right back. Thats from the heart. Not from any supernatural source.

[TheEschaton]

Hmmm, Latrin, interesting theological discussion. Does it have any merit? I don't know.


Current Catholic belief is that God won't send anyone to Hell. Hell is reserved for those who refuse to accept Heaven. Hell is literally the complete cutting-off of one's soul from the Divine Presence. There's a subtle difference, we put ourselves in Hell as opposed to God condemning us.

So, you see, there's a difference. While God may want us to be completely content, we're the ones who would determine our fate. God could not make me, the hypothetical hellbound soul, accept God's presence, it's the whole free will thing.

And, if you like Dante (medieval, but it's a nice story), Jesus will sweep through Hell on the last day, his sword upraised, and show the Truth to the enslaved....and they'll have one last opportunity to make that choice.

By the way, what makes you think Heaven is a place where we'll be completely happy? Lucifer obviously wasn't, nor were any of his legion of fallen angels.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
By the way, what makes you think Heaven is a place where we'll be completely happy? Lucifer obviously wasn't, nor were any of his legion of fallen angels.I've got a lot of problems with the whole Lucifer story, because it either requires angels to have free will or God condemn this guy (Lucifer) to an eternity of suffering. The only likely choice is that angels have free will, which makes them enough like us to be indistinguishable in my eyes.

If I wasn't perfectly happy, what kind of crummy Paradise would that be? Seems to me it's in the definition of Paradise. I read Dante's Inferno the Purgatory one, don't think I ever finished the Paradise part.

Yeah, I didn't think of the rejection factor. Fiddlesticks. :(