Guy prays insteading of calling 911

[Gelston]

WAUSAU, Wis. (Aug. 1) - A Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or speak. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

http://news.aol.com/article/father-prayed-instead-of-getting-help/496034?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews. aol.com%2Farticle%2Ffather-prayed-instead-of-getting-help%2F496034

Fucking retard.

[Bhuryn]

One of you legal eagle types probably know:

Isn't this sort of thing protected? Wouldn't this be the same as refusing medical attention for religious reasons?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

One of you legal eagle types probably know:

Isn't this sort of thing protected? Wouldn't this be the same as refusing medical attention for religious reasons?
I think you can only do that for yourself, but not for minors that are in your care.

[Gelston]

Apparently its 2nd degree reckless homocide. I do wonder if, you being the legal guardian, can refuse medical care for someone if they are in a coma but are expected to wake up. Such as a blood transfusion that is required to save your charge's life.

[TheEschaton]

The problem is, Christianity doesn't forbid going to a hospital or a doctor, so it's not a protected belief.

A protected belief is not wanting a pig valve in your kid's heart, if you're orthodox Jewish, IE, a belief that outright forbids something which isn't otherwise a breach of some fundamental right.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And you can most certainly deny life-saving procedures for minors in your care, if it falls into a protected belief.

[Gelston]

Thats fucked up. You can cause your child to die but you can't spank him.

[Bhuryn]

Thats fucked up. You can cause your child to die but you can't spank him.

Except you can spank your child in every state in the US within reasonable limits?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Thanks for the clarification, The E, I knew there had to be specifics but couldn't name them.

[Gelston]

Yeah, but the big thing is that reasonable limits is different to everyone.

[TheEschaton]

Again, there is no law against spanking your kid. There are laws against abusing your child, though.

And yeah, this country goes pretty far to protect religious beliefs...

...unless your religious beliefs involve doing drugs.

It's kinda hilarious.

-TheE-

[Gelston]

Yes not spanking but abusing. Disciplining to one person is abuse to another. There have been people charged with battery for it.

[TheEschaton]

IDK what the laws are in many states, but I do know some states allow for doctors to apply for an override of an "unreasonable" and "dangerous" belief for an easily curable but otherwise deadly problem.

IE, if they had brought the kid to the hospital but then forbade application of insulin, a doctor could apply to the ethics board to overturn the parents' decision.

[Gelston]

I personally feel that in the case of a minor, the state should be able to take temporary custody and go through with whatever needs done. Then obviously give the kid back.

[Bhuryn]

Alaska has the best "spanking law":




When and to the extent reasonably necessary and appropriate to promote the welfare of the child or incompetent person, a parent, guardian, or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a child under 18 years of age or an incompetent person may use reasonable and appropriate nondeadly force upon that child or incompetent person.
§ 11.81.430. [Criminal Code]

[Gelston]

Sweet you can beat retards in Alaska.

[Bhuryn]

I personally feel that in the case of a minor, the state should be able to take temporary custody and go through with whatever needs done. Then obviously give the kid back.

State takes control of said kid and kid dies in surgery. Then what?

[Gelston]

Same thing that happens when anyone dies in surgery, as long as the surgeon isn't at fault. Partial Temporary Custody would be a better term I suppose.

[Bhuryn]

Same thing that happens when anyone dies in surgery, as long as the surgeon isn't at fault. Partial Temporary Custody would be a better term I suppose.

Except the kid wouldn't have died if the state had not forced the surgery ont he parents?

[Gelston]

And he would have if they didn't, so like I said.

[Gan]

They have some pretty active church groups in prison... lots of prayer there (and buttsex).

[Bhuryn]

And he would have if they didn't, so like I said.

You can guarantee that? They only suggest surgery as the "best course of action" when they are absolutely positive you are going to die?!

Before you respond, take a look at the current trend in birth.

[Gelston]

Yeah, thats the whole reason they would be doing this in the first place. Not so the kid can get a tooth pulled or some shit.

[Numbers]

Frackin' Sagitarians.

[Bhuryn]

Yeah, thats the whole reason they would be doing this in the first place. Not so the kid can get a tooth pulled or some shit.

Your faith in the state and the hospitals to make a decision like that is admirable, but foolish.

[Gelston]

I'd take the doctors word for it when he says someone is going to die if something isn't done. I take that faith in that doctor because one day my life could be in their hands. If they are wrong and somebody dies as a result and they would have lived before, obviously they'd be face with whatever the punishment is when a doctor negligently kills someone.

[Bhuryn]

I'd take the doctors word for it when he says someone is going to die if something isn't done. I take that faith in that doctor because one day my life could be in their hands. If they are wrong and somebody dies as a result and they would have lived before, obviously they'd be face with whatever the punishment is when a doctor negligently kills someone.

You realize that thousands of women have an unnecessary Cesarean Section every year right? That's major surgery.

[Gelston]

And there probably a lot more that result in saved lives.

[Bhuryn]

And there probably a lot more that result in saved lives.

And on that point, you'd be completely incorrect.

WHO says 5-10% C-section rate would be considered "optimal" (only used to save mother/child/etc). The US c-section rate was over 30% in the 2006. Why? Money, time, ease on the doctors. You realize that the US has one of the worst infant mortality rates?

Go ahead though, you trust those doctors =P.

[Drew]

You realize that the US has one of the worst infant mortality rates?

Presumably you are looking for a qualifier here. "Among developed nations. Among the first world."?

[Bhuryn]

Presumably you are looking for a qualifier here. "Among developed nations. Among the first world."?

We're 31st and behind Cuba. You can qualify it with whatever you see fit.

[Drew]

We're 31st and behind Cuba. You can qualify it with whatever you see fit.

There's about 210 or so different countries, so no, we aren't anywhere near the worst.

[Bhuryn]

There's about 210 or so different countries, so no, we aren't anywhere near the worst.

What's your point anyway, the lack of a qualifier doesn't change the fact doctors put people at risk by suggesting unnecessary major surgery every day does it?

[Gelston]

31 out of over 210 is pretty good. That puts us in the top 1/6th at the least, which is fucking outstanding in my book. I'd rather err on the side of saving a life then on death. Anyways, what I said is my opinion. Doctors are far more trained then you or I to determine what is life threatening and what isn't. If you went to the hospital for whatever reason and the doctor that treated you said if you didn'thave a shot of whatever or a transfusion of whatever or a surgery of some sort, wouldn't you agree to have this done to you? I would.

[Proxy]

My only bitch is that they should of charged every adult present for either the same thing as the father or as an aid to/accomplice/what ever. And Second Degree is insulting. First degree man-slaughter would of been a more fitting charge.

[Bhuryn]

31 out of over 210 is pretty good. That puts us in the top 1/6th at the least, which is fucking outstanding in my book. I'd rather err on the side of saving a life then on death. Anyways, what I said is my opinion. Doctors are far more trained then you or I to determine what is life threatening and what isn't. If you went to the hospital for whatever reason and the doctor that treated you said if you didn'thave a shot of whatever or a transfusion of whatever or a surgery of some sort, wouldn't you agree to have this done to you? I would.

If we were the third world country.

You're actually missing the important thing here. You're not "saving" people you're actually "killing people". Labor is more dangerous now (for the baby and mother) in the US then it was in the 70s.

[Gelston]

So, I just pulled some info of C-Section. They estimate 500 women die a year from c-sections. The baby obviously survives, and this is out of 25,405 C-Sections in the year of 2008. They don't count women that would have been dead either way though.

49,305 live and 500 die. Acceptable I think.

[Nieninque]

Not if you're one of the 500

[Gelston]

The needs of the many outweigh that of the one. Yes, if you are one of the 500 thats true. How many mothers would lay down their lives for their child though?

This who arguement has gone way beyond what I originally intended. I mean, I was speaking blood transfusions and insulin shots.

oh, btw... I LOVE YOU NIENINQUE

[Nieninque]

The needs of the many outweigh that of the one. Yes, if you are one of the 500 thats true. How many mothers would lay down their lives for their child though?

This who arguement has gone way beyond what I originally intended. I mean, I was speaking blood transfusions and insulin shots.

oh, btw... I LOVE YOU NIENINQUE


TOO LATE BUCKO!

If you were talking about necessary surgery, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If they are doing unnecessary Csections and the mother dies during surgery, one death is too many...let alone 500.

With regards to blood transfusions, Jehovahs Witnesses take the line that they must not have blood transfusions. There is apparently a high court judge in the UK on permanent stand-by for cases such as that where a blood transfusion is necessary to save life and parents refuse. JWs believe that blood transfusions are not necessary and there are alternative therapies that will suffice. Cant say I'm qualified to comment though, to be honest.

Not sure what the objection to insulin would be, other than stupidity.

[Xaerve]

TOO LATE BUCKO!

If you were talking about necessary surgery, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If they are doing unnecessary Csections and the mother dies during surgery, one death is too many...let alone 500.

With regards to blood transfusions, Jehovahs Witnesses take the line that they must not have blood transfusions. There is apparently a high court judge in the UK on permanent stand-by for cases such as that where a blood transfusion is necessary to save life and parents refuse. JWs believe that blood transfusions are not necessary and there are alternative therapies that will suffice. Cant say I'm qualified to comment though, to be honest.

Not sure what the objection to insulin would be, other than stupidity.

I save all your posts in a shoe box under my bed.

[Gelston]

My opinion is that it should only be for necessary surgeries. Obviously doctors should be held responsible for their mistakes.

Look, I work on statistics. One death is always one to many when they are close to you. I know, I've had several friends die by my side in Iraq and from drinking and driving aswell. It hurts everytime. I feel though, if something is accomplished by this death, such as a new life is beginning its worth it.

I'm sorry if others don't agree with my feelings on this matter, and I know people won't. You won't change this though, and I feel is right.

[ElanthianSiren]

I should point out that the symptoms of T1 are pretty easy to recognize: teenage girl (women are more likely to develop the disease because it's autoimmune and it often occurs at puberty), probably quite thin (the disease disrupts the glucose-dependent metabolic cycle, so the body burns fats, resulting in ketoacidosis, which results in fruity breath and rapid weight loss because fat is not as efficient in our energy pathways as carbohydrates are), excessive thirst, excessive urination, shallow fast breathing as the body tries to rid itself of waste build up through the respiratory route, physical exhaustion, impaired decision making, irritability, coma, death.

While this guy didn't have ample time to sit around and pray, he had time to get her to a doctor and not be negligent. In my case, I think it took several weeks to go from getting sick to saying "I need to go to the ER now."

Only objection religiously I could see to insulin would be back when it was made of pork, and back then, they had cow also. It's made from a template of human DNA now, and they use ecoli to produce it in huge vats.

[Bhuryn]

So, I just pulled some info of C-Section. They estimate 500 women die a year from c-sections. The baby obviously survives, and this is out of 25,405 C-Sections in the year of 2008. They don't count women that would have been dead either way though.

49,305 live and 500 die. Acceptable I think.

50k c-sections, many are unnecessary (baby/mother would be fine in normal birth). For the sake of argument we'll say half (it's probably higher then half). 500 women die in surgery. Some of those 500 women were unnecessary c-sections and died for no reason. It's really not that difficult is it?

It's not a case of "the good outweighs the bad" or "sacrificing for the many". It's a case of lazy or uninformed doctors and nurses administering drugs to hurry the birthing process along or using some lame excuse ("OMG CPD!", "You're not progressing! Pitocin Time!" or "FETAL DISTRESS!!!!") and end up with people in surgery that shouldn't be there. Some of them die.

[Latrinsorm]

I'd take the doctors word for it when he says someone is going to die if something isn't done.And someone in Wisconsin takes the "Lord's" word for it. "[R]easonable limits is different to everyone", you know? If your only argument is faith, how is your faith any better than some whackjob in the Laboratory of Democracy?

[radamanthys]

Whatever. Kill it with fire, if you ask me.

[SHAFT]

Another one of the foolish sheep. Baaahh baaahh

[Gan]

Clearly God wanted the girl to die and the father to go to jail.

[Proxy]

How many mothers would lay down their lives for their child..

In this country, none.

[Gelston]

And someone in Wisconsin takes the "Lord's" word for it. "[R]easonable limits is different to everyone", you know? If your only argument is faith, how is your faith any better than some whackjob in the Laboratory of Democracy?

Because the guy I'm placing my faith in has gone to college for 8 years to be a doctor, so should have some sort of idea as to what he is talking about.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

In this country, none.

Which country do you live in?

[Skeeter]

Because the guy I'm placing my faith in has gone to college for 8 years to be a doctor, so should have some sort of idea as to what he is talking about.

ROFL. This statement makes me think you haven't been to college.

[Gelston]

All I'm saying is I think that after 8 years of schooling, someone will be a bit more qualified then redneck joe at determining if a condition is life threatening.

[Proxy]

Which country do you live in?

In the Great US of A of course. And I firmly believe that when the chips are down and time comes to make a choice such as child/parent. The Parents, Mother or Father, would chose their life over a child's or the life of their SO. Especially in relation to un-borns. In this country. Granted their will be that rare occasion where one or the other would put something else first but for the most part American's are blood sucking parasites. Only interested in their on welfare and that of their pleasures.

[Latrinsorm]

Because the guy I'm placing my faith in has gone to college for 8 years to be a doctor, so should have some sort of idea as to what he is talking about.The guy the Wisconsonian was placing his faith in is omniscient. Certainly being all-knowing trumps some schlub with a piece of paper.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

In the Great US of A of course. And I firmly believe that when the chips are down and time comes to make a choice such as child/parent. The Parents, Mother or Father, would chose their life over a child's or the life of their SO. Especially in relation to un-borns. In this country. Granted their will be that rare occasion where one or the other would put something else first but for the most part American's are blood sucking parasites. Only interested in their on welfare and that of their pleasures.

Actually, Oceania and North America have the lowest rates of abortion. Eastern Europe, Latin America and the Caribbean have the highest.

But even beyond abortions (though that alone kind of damns your theory), it's not just the 'rare' occasion. But it IS easier to spew hateful hyperbole about America and Americans than to actually do any research on the subject, I guess.

[4a6c1]

Northerners are weird. :-X

[Khariz]

Frackin' Sagitarians.

Best post ever, and 100% on point.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Guy prays insteading of... 08-03-2009 10:05 PM blah blah blah. STFU

Yeah facts are fucking annoying!