Roleplaying or Abuse? OOC or IC?

[Jolena]

I have brought up this subject before, a long time ago and thought I had some definate answers, however recently with the thread made by Methais about Syyn and the multiple responses that ensued, I would like to ask your opinion yet again.

When do you think that it becomes mechanics abuse to use a spell against a lower level character in a roleplaying interaction? And please explain why you feel that way with as much to support your feelings as possible, ie examples of situations.

Here is my example and my feelings:
I think that you should consider it as you would if you were to walk into a bar full of folks, some you knew of others you did not. Of course you would look at those people to see what they are wearing, how old they look, etc.. but you would honestly not have any other knowledge of them unless someone else you knew knew of them. So.. let's say you do something to upset that person.. and that person retalliates in a manner that they see acceptable due to their personality and past. Would you consider it abuse because they are older then you and know it? Or would you think that you probably should just expect that you will have consequences to your actions, even if you don't like them.

I think that too many people take OOC information such as level of a character into play when dealing with them in encounters where conflict can occur. It is not in my opinion, out of line for a character to use his or her casting ability to deal with someone else when they are starting crap. Now as far as my character goes, she would not do much but maybe bind if she could, possibly stun if needed. However I could see another character who is more forceful or violent doing something such as death.

One more thing.. do you all consider fame and profile and profession titles as OOC or IC? I personally consider it all OOC because unless the person is wearing sometihng to indicate their profession or I see them casting a spell to indicate profession, how would i know? Unless of course I was told by another who knew them. Same thing with names, I have a pet peeve with that. I dont' use someones' name just becuase I see it unless I have heard someone call them by their name or they introduce themselves.

Anyhow, discuss away, I'm interested.

[Sean]

If you feel like digging through the Synn thread theres quite a bit of player opinions on your question about older characters casting at lower level characters..

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Tijay]

[Jolena]

I actually read the entire syyn thread however it was pretty off topic and I wanted to address it diplomatically without everyone taking up the thread that was not intended for that purpose.

[Galleazzo]

I don't think it's "mechanics abuse." It ain't cheating, you're using the things you can do in the game.

I do think most players doing it are dickhead bullies who pull it only because they know they can get away with it and no one'll do shit.

[Jolena]

Would you not consider it a viable part of the game for a older character to respond to someone who annoys them? Either with repeated insults, insolence, things of that nature?

[Snapp]

Well, I don't think it's OOC for people to know how old Methais (or other really old/capped folk) is simply because he's so well known. If someone was super powerful and could slay the mightiest of foes, I think it'd get around pretty quick.

[Jolena]

I mean, can we honestly say that because someone is older then us and probably knows it, that they don't have a right to defend themselves or react to someone starting crap? I just think that is a bit too much to expect. And another thing..how do our characters KNOW that we are older then others in train? Is it some magical ability we have? I agree that stunning someone for hours is out of liine..but stunning or binding or silencing someone once is not in my opinion.

[CrystalTears]

I don't see how using the spells and skills you learned against someone else would be mechanics abuse. People just don't like to be cast at during a conflict is all. Some people just need to understand that not all conflicts will be handled in the same exact way. Some will talk it over, some with just fight angrily, others will just point and kill. You really can't determine how the conflict will carry until it happens.

If you don't like conflict, don't get caught up in one. The level of the character has nothing to do with it. You should always approach all conflicts with the possibility that they will fight back and possibly win.

To me it's only considered abuse when the person is always casting at you without a word or interaction and won't answer to whispers to cease the roleplaying.

I personally don't like conflict. I don't deal with it well but I roll with the punches and handle it as best I can. If it's really bad I'll go to the point of whispering and ask if it can be ended or solve it OOC if necessary. However I have never ever warned or reported anyone.

[Jolena]

See, in my opinion that is a VERY smart way to handle it CT. And I am very glad to hear that because that's how I feel too. It only becomes abuse in my opinion if its' excessive and won't stop, and then you should try to whisper it to them that you are not happy with how this is going. If you use warn it should be only in the most horrid of instances I think.

As for the comment about Methais.. Syyn plays a winged one.. who is only here recently..and is maybe not privy to information as to how old he was? That is a very real possibility. To be honest, I have played gemstone for years and yes I remember that Methais is a very well known and older player. However my characters may not. Jolena would because she's 'in the loop' so to speak. My others may very well not, in fact one of them I KNOW would not. So it's all a matter of what character you are on and what their past and roleplay is.

[Hanksbane]

Its all how you RP it.

If you RP your character as a cast first ask questions later kinda person, fine. So be it. I myself try and use my power as a last resort. Sure if some characters starts perstering you and won't let up, boom. he's dead.

There are those who abuse their power, in GS and in RL. Its a part of life. I have no respect for those people and I can't really do anything about it, except to disagree with thier tactics.

It's my opinion that "Might does not make right". There are those who will agree and those who will not. Some people feel that silencing, stunning, and binding wil make people fear and respect them, to me its just mindless bullying.

As for it being abuse of mechanics more often its not. Unless your name is Devishal.

I do believe that taking OOC knowledge and bringing it in game is dumb.

[HarmNone]

To me, it depends on how the spells are used. Some players DO abuse their power. They make it very difficult for the roleplayers in the game because, if you try to roleplay with someone you do not know, there is no way you can tell if that person is a roleplayer or a common twit until they show their hand.

It is completely possible to play GemStone without any conflict. I know. I did it with one of my characters. However, it was certainly not easy. There were twits then, and there are twits now, who just wanted to disrupt the enjoyment of others for their own amusement. Some of them had the audacity to call what they were doing "roleplaying". For awhile, it was funny. It became a source of frustration.

Should an older character have to put up with harassment and childish behavior without using the powers at his/her command to deal with twits? Nope. Should an older character have to withhold those same powers in a roleplayed encounter in which use of them would be warranted by what happens during the encounter? Nope. However, the misuse of power by the few has had a very negative impact on the roleplaying environment. To me, it is as simple as that.

HarmNone wishes it were not so

[Stunseed]

If you can't deal with the consequences of your actions, don't fucking do it. It doesn't matter if you are level 1 or 100.

Another thing I wonder if people look into is race/age, or even culture. The day I see a halfling matrix kick a giantman in the head Voln-Fu style realistically is the day I'll stop stealing from folks in TC. Also, anyone with their age set "one step in death's door" should not be able to force a drink in someone's mouth. Everytime I see an anciently aged < not level > character do that, I think of them being more like Monty Burns off the Simpsons.

Just my opinion, though.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Jolena
Would you not consider it a viable part of the game for a older character to respond to someone who annoys them? Either with repeated insults, insolence, things of that nature?
For a lot of folk, "annoys them" means "you aren't kissing my ass and doing exactly what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it."

[Fallen]

Good post, CT. You basically mirror my beliefs.

[Sweets]

Let's see if I can clarify my position on spell casting.

I don't think it's a problem of elder verses younger. I just think it is a fact of some characters having no imagination so they just cast. End of story. No discussion. Constantly.

For instance. If I were to steal from a character and get caught, I wouldn't expect a conversation (though trying to talk your way out is fun) I expect a stun. Thems the lumps of a thief. Being excessively lippy, I'll get a silence. So be it. It's all good.

Being repeatedly cast at for very little reason other than looking at them...or raising an eyebrow in their direction? Uh....you'd better have a good reason and explain it to me in whispers please. I know this takes some of the fun out of the interaction but you just look like a snert with power. I have cleared up many a sticky situation with a casual ooc whisper. Ilonia tends to get into trouble. It's her mouth.:D

I have seen great rp with spells...without spells. I have also seen lousy attempts at being powerful. These are the spell whores. It's the shoot now and sort out the bodies later attitude I guess makes me tempted to warn. I have never used the verb...so far I haven't needed it.

I admit, I prefer a battle of the verbal wits but will take my lumps with spell casters. I will stay ic as long as things don't get out of control (constant stunning with lame declarations of "How dare you look at me ant!".

I hope that makes sense.

[Myshel]

How many people have you given looks to in rl have given you lip for it, usually because they are acting like a ass. Unfortunately, people that are asses are the ones who will get into it with you, rl or rp. So.... if you see some ig acting like a ass and you give them a "look" or a comment, don't be surprised when they retaliate, one way or another. In rl you will get cussed out or worse, in a fantasy game 2x that with spells, death.. so forth.

[Sweets]

Originally posted by Myshel
How many people have you given looks to in rl have given you lip for it, usually because they are acting like a ass. Unfortunately, people that are asses are the ones who will get into it with you, rl or rp. So.... if you see some ig acting like a ass and you give them a "look" or a comment, don't be surprised when they retaliate, one way or another. In rl you will get cussed out or worse, in a fantasy game 2x that with spells, death.. so forth.

More clarification

Hypothetical situation:

Someone make a spectacle of themselves.
Ilonia glances over at Spectacle.
Spectacle cackles and stuns Ilonia for 10 minutes at a time for half an hour saying stupid things like "I am the mighty Spectacle, respect ma a-thor-a-tie!"

Jackass spell whore.

Again character making a spectacle of themselves.
Ilonia glances over at Spectacle.
Spectacle "Problem?"
Ilonia, "You're amusing to watch?"
Banter Banter and a cast...alright we're roleplaying. Keep casting forever...roleplay has stopped....spell whoring has begun.

See what I mean. It's not a matter of real life giving looks and getting a reaction. That goes without saying. In game when you give looks etc a reaction is wanted....I am interacting. I am looking for a reason. I am saying "please...let's play." The reaction I get can a be numerous, and never goes my way. She's the ultimate loser....but it still can be fun. I am hoping the spectacle is roleplaying as well. I give the benefit of the doubt.

Sitting there stunned for long periods of time without getting any response other than negative ass whispers to my inquiries to why I have been stunned.

Ilonia whispers, "Pardon the ooc but isn't half and hour of stunning a bit much?"

Spectacle whispers, "Don't be a snert newb and I won't stun you. Look at someone else."

That is not roleplay. That's an ass with a powerful character.

I keep saying I enjoy the responses I get with Ilonia when she mouths off. That's why she does it. I know I will get idiot responses sometimes from idiot players. Sometimes people roleplay it well. I am just saying the idiot responders can be spell whores. *Le sigh*

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Sweets]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
For a lot of folk, "annoys them" means "you aren't kissing my ass and doing exactly what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it."

No malice in this question, I'm just curious -- Who's the most recent bully like this that you've seen? Since there are a lot of them....

Most "bullies" are around lvl 20-40 in my experience.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets

Originally posted by Galleazzo
For a lot of folk, "annoys them" means "you aren't kissing my ass and doing exactly what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it."

No malice in this question, I'm just curious -- Who's the most recent bully like this that you've seen? Since there are a lot of them....

Most "bullies" are around lvl 20-40 in my experience.

My last encounter with a bully was Actually a then, level 200ish Skyfawn.

She felt that me and my friends had no right to goof around with eachother at voln in Icemule..as voln is a place of "work" (where she spends her days mass healing every wound that walks in, picking boxes, and mega fogging). Well, When I told her what I felt of her opinion, she proceeded to dispell my invisiblity, then bind me. When I said something alone the lines of "Oh joy, I say my peace, and she casts at me", she silenced me, and left me like that for a good 20 min.

-Adredrin

[i]Originally posted by LordAdredrinMy last encounter with a bully was Actually a then, level 200ish Skyfawn.

She felt that me and my friends had no right to goof around with eachother at voln in Icemule..as voln is a place of "work" (where she spends her days mass healing every wound that walks in, picking boxes, and mega fogging). Well, When I told her what I felt of her opinion, she proceeded to dispell my invisiblity, then bind me. When I said something alone the lines of "Oh joy, I say my peace, and she casts at me", she silenced me, and left me like that for a good 20 min.

-Adredrin

So for you, it was 4 or 5 months ago...which is my main point.

[Fallen]

Again character making a spectacle of themselves.
Ilonia glances over at Spectacle.
Spectacle "Problem?"
Ilonia, "You're amusing to watch?"
Banter Banter and a cast...alright we're roleplaying. Keep casting forever...roleplay has stopped....spell whoring has begun. >>

Chuckles

You would think the second time around you would have learned to ignore people who make an ass of themselves.

I guess I see a glance as a dirty look. If your in the room with someone, obviously your watching what is going on with everyone present. You then chose to fix them with a particular look, which means more than just a darted glance in their direction. Again, perception is everything and nothing.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets
No malice in this question, I'm just curious -- Who's the most recent bully like this that you've seen?
Yesterday afternoon in Illistim.

Originally posted by Galleazzo
[Yesterday afternoon in Illistim.

Who?

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets

Originally posted by Galleazzo
For a lot of folk, "annoys them" means "you aren't kissing my ass and doing exactly what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it."

No malice in this question, I'm just curious -- Who's the most recent bully like this that you've seen? Since there are a lot of them....

Most "bullies" are around lvl 20-40 in my experience.
This week in Icemule, when I was in Vaalor two weeks ago, a few times during the Spitfire.....