Cash for Clunkers goes tits up

[Parkbandit]

NEW YORK (CBS) ―
Drivers were dumping their old cars in exchange for up to $4,500, as part of the federal Cash for Clunkers program.

In a shocker, the government announced it would suspend the program at midnight because demand was too great.

It may have been the best $1 billion the government has spent so far this year.

Business was humming at Crestmont Toyota/Volkswagen Thursday night as salespeople rushed back to work on news that the government's "Cash for Clunkers" program was being suspended.

It's the deal where you get up to $4,500 for your older low mileage beast if you buy a new car with more efficient fuel consumption.

On Thursday night we learned the program was only good until midnight, all because of a backlog of red tape. So the salespeople were trying to get their deals through the government's Web site.

"People are loving it. It's wonderful. It's a great stimulus package," salesman Andy Beloff said.

But when asked if the government was running the program well, Beloff said, "No. No."

The dealership's lot had roughly 40 clunkers waiting to be shipped to the junkyard. Each one has already been replaced by a brand new lower mileage car. The program only started last Friday. It's a victim of its own success.

But the money may be running out faster than anyone imagined.

With almost 23,000 deals already processed and tens of thousands more in the pipeline, it's possible the $1 billion allocated for the program might have already run out and into the pockets of people like Christie Acosta, who knew a good deal when she saw one.

"I had a 1987 Ford Explorer. We had it for a while and I was ready to get rid of it," Acosta said.

For the economy it's good news, but the government's miscalculation has some a little nervous.

"These are just the deals we have to submit tonight," Crestmont president Bill Strauss said while holding a stack of papers. He said the dealership has over $100,000 on the table.


"If they can't administer a program like this, I'd be a little concerned about my health insurance," car salesman Rob Bojaryn said.

The "Clunkers" program was being administered by the National Highway Safety Administration, which has seemed overwhelmed from the get-go. Some in Congress are expected to push for expansion of the $1 billion budget on Friday.

If you have a "Clunkers" deal in the works, don't worry. The government said Thursday any transactions already made between dealers and consumers will be honored.

http://wcbstv.com/consumer/cash.clunkers.success.2.1108544.html

Bolded the best part imo.

Hilarious that one of the very few programs that actually stimulates the economy (AND OMG LOWERS EVIL CO2) is completely mismanaged by government.

[Fallen]

They should bring it back but make it for American cars only.

[ElvenFury]

They should bring it back but make it for American cars only.

We've got anti-protectionist agreements with most countries, I believe. Otherwise, they just pull the shame shit with their steel and whatnot. I wonder what the fucking hold up is on these car deals?

[AnticorRifling]

Aren't most vehicles assembled here anyway? I know of several plants for Honda, Toyota, etc. that are in the states. At the very least it's employing a lot of people.

[Euler]

they wouldn't let me trade my car in for a saddle and bit. :(

There goes my tuesday nights.

[TheWitch]

As of about 15 minutes ago, Congress is trying to find :rofl: another $2B in funding for CARS.

How bout taking that out of the non-stimulative stimulus package, guys?

And in other news, they changed the specs on what qualifies on 7/29, two days AFTER the program officially started. My bomb qualified before that, does not qualify after. So be it, I wasn't going to take the handout anyway, but sheesh.

Yea, they should totally run health care.

[Inspire]

Do you only qualify if you buy a brand new car?

[TheWitch]

Assuming the dealership is following the rules, yes. Only new car purchase or lease qualifies.

There have already been reports of dealers NOT following the rules.

Despite a $50 million dollar allocation for administrative costs. Hopefully that number will go down since the program only lasted a few days...

Go, go, gadget government!

[Euler]

yes,new cars only. there was a sweet shelby cobra I asked about. No dice. :(

With the 4500 from my old station wagon I would only have been about 154,500 short for the cobra. Oh well.

[Xaerve]

Its still on and still live.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/business/01clunkers.html?hp

[Inspire]

I lease currently but it's up in Oct.

I think I need to read up on this offer... anyone know a good place for the details?

[Sean]

Theres a lot of bugs in the system. My mom went to cash in her spare car clunker for a new CR-V and when you entered the numbers you couldn't complete the process because the car.gov input only had the automatic version completely filled in.

[Inspire]

Trade-in vehicles must be registered and insured continuously for the full year preceding the trade-in.

Guess no rebate for me! (I'd have to buy a clunker to trade-in.) =(

[Trouble]

Just heard from CNN that the House OKed another 2 billion.

[Methais]

Bolded the best part imo.

Whatever the best part was, you forgot to bold it.


Theres a lot of bugs in the system. My mom went to cash in her spare car clunker for a new CR-V and when you entered the numbers you couldn't complete the process because the car.gov input only had the automatic version completely filled in.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/20/128847344485080355.jpg

[Deathravin]

Theres a lot of bugs in the system. My mom went to cash in her spare car clunker for a new CR-V and when you entered the numbers you couldn't complete the process because the car.gov input only had the automatic version completely filled in.

Eh, who wants a manual anyway. LOL

[AnticorRifling]

So with all the vehicles that are gas hogs being turned in and fuel saver going out the door does this mean gas prices are going to go up so that profits remain the same?

[Parkbandit]

So with all the vehicles that are gas hogs being turned in and fuel saver going out the door does this mean gas prices are going to go up so that profits remain the same?

Well, gas prices are going to go up to SAVE THE PLANET!!!!!111oneone via the Tax and Cap system.

Not quite sure how successful that will be.. given that 2 of the 3 top polluters are not participating.. but let's not dwell on the negatives.. THE PLANET WILL BE SAVED!!! Big deal, a gallon of gas will be $8.00.. can you really put a price tag on Mother Earth? Suck it up.

[Fallen]

What are they doing with all the old cars? Anyone know? I've heard they are recycling them, but what does that actually involve? (too lazy to look it up.)

[Parkbandit]

What are they doing with all the old cars? Anyone know? I've heard they are recycling them, but what does that actually involve? (too lazy to look it up.)

I'm sure they are recycling them. Personally... I like the program. It actually does what it's supposed to do.. stimulate the economy. Very few programs in the "stimulus" package does this.

[Fallen]

I'm sure they are recycling them. Personally... I like the program. It actually does what it's supposed to do.. stimulate the economy. Very few programs in the "stimulus" package does this.

Definitely. I know i've considered it, and others have considered buying a car because of this program that weren't before. What i've mentioned before is why not limit it to American brand cars only? Yes, other cars are assembled here and all that, but we didn't bail out Toyota. Seems like it would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

[AnticorRifling]

Definitely. I know i've considered it, and others have considered buying a car because of this program that weren't before. What i've mentioned before is why not limit it to American brand cars only? Yes, other cars are assembled here and all that, but we didn't bail out Toyota. Seems like it would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Limit it to American cars only and watch as any American products sold overseas sit on shelves and rot.

We didn't bail out Toyota because they aren't an American company, that would be up to Japan to assist them if they wanted.

[Fallen]

Limit it to American cars only and watch as any American products sold overseas sit on shelves and rot.

We didn't bail out Toyota because they aren't an American company, that would be up to Japan to assist them if they wanted.

We already suffer a massive trade imbalance with other countries, don't we? Also, it wouldn't be like we are making foreign cars any more expensive, we are simply providing a discount on our own cars. It isn't like any other country is offering a similiar program to ours, and they included American brand cars in their bill. Or am I wrong in that?

I understand we didn't bail out Toyota because they are not American. We did, however, give billions and billions of money to two of our 3 auto companies. Why not get more Americans into US cars this way? It just seems like if we are going to giving extra aid to get people into cars, the focus should be getting them into American ones. I agree that putting additional tariffs and what not on non-american brands is not the answer, being scared to piss off Hondai et all isn't really the answer either.

[Clove]

Protectionist policies are a bad idea, that being said I'd have offered a bonus subsidy for purchases from American manufacturers. Personally, although it has been poorly managed so far, it's the right idea. It stimulates the economy and gets a large number of older, less fuel-efficient cars off the roads in sudden surge.

[Clove]

We did, however, give billions and billions of money to two of our 3 auto companies. Why not get more Americans into US cars this way?Imagine if instead of putting 35 billion into a manufacturer so it could go bankrupt, we had invested 10 billion in the clunkers program instead?

[Fallen]

Imagine if instead of putting 35 billion into a manufacturer so it could go bankrupt, we had invested 10 billion in the clunkers program instead?

Then, apparently, we would be accused of being Xenophobic, protectionist assholes for not helping out the struggling japanese/etc auto makers.

[Parkbandit]

Imagine if instead of putting 35 billion into a manufacturer so it could go bankrupt, we had invested 10 billion in the clunkers program instead?


Bingo. But then again, that was never Obama's plan. Obama paid some election "debts" off by handing over control to a huge voting block of his.. the unions.

[TheEschaton]

From reading up on this, the "poor management" seems to come from the fact that dealers are selling the cars before completing the application, because, as the Times article said, they're more concerned with "moving metal off the lots."

Although not having the website to handle the capacity is a pretty piss poor thing.

-TheE-

[Bhuryn]

Meh, I bought a Toyota Truck a few months ago...

[Parkbandit]

From reading up on this, the "poor management" seems to come from the fact that dealers are selling the cars before completing the application, because, as the Times article said, they're more concerned with "moving metal off the lots."

Although not having the website to handle the capacity is a pretty piss poor thing.

-TheE-

The poor management of it is squarely on the shoulders of the US Government. Part of managing anything is to ensure that theft, abuse and misuse are at an absolute minimum... if not eliminated.

[TheEschaton]

But it's a reimbursement program. Like any reimbursement program, people are going to sell first, and then hope to get reimbursed later. This is an aggravated example of that.

Unless you think there is a better way of doing it. I don't think there is.

[Anebriated]

:( I need a new car but mine averages 20 mpg... just over the 18 mpg cutoff. Would have been nice to get the extra 4.5k towards a new one.

[Tolwynn]

They could set up a website and software that is able to handle the traffic, and keep adequate track of claims coming in. They were clearly blindsided by the initial demand, but now they know the problem is there, and another $2B is being potentially allocated to the program.

If they can't keep it up, there's going to be overextension, and a large number of upset car dealers and/or car buyers as an eventual end result.

[Apotheosis]

I'm sure they are recycling them. Personally... I like the program. It actually does what it's supposed to do.. stimulate the economy. Very few programs in the "stimulus" package does this.

And I think that this is perfect irony / example of how funneling money into the private sector boosts our economy.

[Bhuryn]

But it's a reimbursement program. Like any reimbursement program, people are going to sell first, and then hope to get reimbursed later. This is an aggravated example of that.

Unless you think there is a better way of doing it. I don't think there is.

Tax credit?

[Liberi Fatali]

Does anyone know how old the car has to be you want to trade in? I swear I read it had to be at MINIMUM 20 years old -- but I can't seem to find that anywhere now.

I have a 1994 Chrysler LeBaron that I still drive -- is that "too new" to qualify?

[Bhuryn]

Does anyone know how old the car has to be you want to trade in? I swear I read it had to be at MINIMUM 20 years old -- but I can't seem to find that anywhere now.

I have a 1994 Chrysler LeBaron that I still drive -- is that "too new" to qualify?

go to cars.gov

[Fallen]

Does anyone know how old the car has to be you want to trade in? I swear I read it had to be at MINIMUM 20 years old -- but I can't seem to find that anywhere now.

I have a 1994 Chrysler LeBaron that I still drive -- is that "too new" to qualify?

I didn't think you were in the States, ya boner.

[Liberi Fatali]

I didn't think you were in the States, ya boner.

Oh yes, I graduated from college in Ireland in 2008 and moved back in 2009 -- to Indiana, that is. I am a resident now, or as they called us in Ireland, a registrar.

My wife and I purchased a brilliant home, but I'm still driving my piece of rubbish LeBaron that I bought for $1500 in 2001.

[Kuyuk]

Ever notice that when people bring up his UK-ness, he suddenly makes his next few posts full of brit terms when all his other posts dont reflect it...

makes me chuckle, and shake my head.

[AestheticDeath]

I read through the cars.gov thing. And I for some reason could not find a definite answer on how much MPG you have to improve. I saw that the max you can have is 18 mpg, and mine is at 18. The minimum qualifying car you can purchase has to be 22 mpg, or truck has to be min of 18.

I realize you are supposed to improve on MPG, but could not find any specific minimum for some reason. I was wondering if I would be able to trade my 18 mpg car for a 18 mpg truck somehow. Likely a no I realize, but since I haven't found an answer yet, perhaps there is a loop hole I can exploit. :P

[Liberi Fatali]

Ever notice that when people bring up his UK-ness, he suddenly makes his next few posts full of brit terms when all his other posts dont reflect it...

makes me chuckle, and shake my head.

I hate to burst your bubble, you thundering fuck, but you must not have looked very far back in my posting history.

I've always typed like that, even when I play Gemstone. Curiously, you must have forgotten all those times I've killed you and made my British catch phrases.

[Bobmuhthol]

You have a car that gets lower than 18 mpg combined city and highway? How the fuck do so many people manage this?

You get $3,500 if the new car is 4 mpg better; $4,500 if it's 10 mpg better.

[Liberi Fatali]

You have a car that gets lower than 18 mpg combined city and highway? How the fuck do so many people manage this?

You get $3,500 if the new car is 4 mpg better; $4,500 if it's 10 mpg better.

There's a few websites out there that actually list all the cars available for 'cash in'.

Unfortunately, there is a 1992 LeBaron on there, but no 1994. Mine apparently gets 20 mpg combined, which I think is rubbish.

[AestheticDeath]

You have a car that gets lower than 18 mpg combined city and highway? How the fuck do so many people manage this?


Sports Car. 17 town, 25 highway as per documents, or 18 combined.
I wind up getting 30 highway and avg 22 most of the time. But I won't tell them that.

My car. (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsResult1.jsp?column=1&id=11583)

[Bobmuhthol]

... that should be like 21.4 mpg. I thought EPA combined calculations were 45% city / 55% highway?


Oh, shit, yeah, that engine is full of terrible mileage. I've got a 2.4 L I4 so maybe I'm just bitter.

[Kuyuk]

<I've always typed like that, even when I play Gemstone. Curiously, you must have forgotten all those times I've killed you and made my British catch phrases.>


Right.. I remember you killing me like...twice.

[AestheticDeath]

Changed recently I think, but not sure from what to what.

[AestheticDeath]

And holy shit, your new car has to weigh less than the old car, not just get better gas mileage. How fucked up. No truck for me.

And the Camaro is only fucking 21 mpg. Argh. One short. Oh wait the auto V6 gets 22... Hmm

[Trouble]

I read through the cars.gov thing. And I for some reason could not find a definite answer on how much MPG you have to improve. I saw that the max you can have is 18 mpg, and mine is at 18. The minimum qualifying car you can purchase has to be 22 mpg, or truck has to be min of 18.

I realize you are supposed to improve on MPG, but could not find any specific minimum for some reason. I was wondering if I would be able to trade my 18 mpg car for a 18 mpg truck somehow. Likely a no I realize, but since I haven't found an answer yet, perhaps there is a loop hole I can exploit. :P

Use this to find your car; it will tell you if you qualify:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsSearchIntro.shtml

My car supposedly gets 21 mpg so I'm SOL.

[AestheticDeath]

Yeah I used that, just a pain in the ass cause you gotta go back and forth for every car. Or open a ton of new windows.

[TheEschaton]

LOL, my Saturn has a combined mpg of 27. Even in 1999, I was earth conscious. :P

I do love driving from Boston to Baltimore on 12.5 gallons of gas, though. 403 miles, 32 mpg on the highway, mmmm.

-TheE-

[Rocktar]

Line up for your welfare handout all for the chance to go further in debt and offer a handout to the UAW.

[Parkbandit]

Line up for your welfare handout all for the chance to go further in debt and offer a handout to the UAW.


See.. and this is the standard line from the Republicans.

I say big fucking deal. I'd rather spend 3 billion on a program that actually stimulates the economy, helps one of the few big manufacturing sectors of this country, helps reduce our demand on foreign oil, reduces pollution and helps out a bunch of people.. than I would spend a dime on some bullshit liberal wish list that does nothing for the economy.

Republicans need to stop being stupid and becoming the party of "No".. regardless of the program's merits. This is less about the deficit spending (something Republicans don't have a leg to stand on) and more about stimulating the economy.

[LMingrone]

I've always just given my junk cars to Kars for Kids. Just get a nice little tax break for them to handle the towing and scrapping I can't handle. And although I liked the idea of this package, there are too many loopholes.

Dude on the news this morning explained how he bought a car years ago for $4000. Put 220,000 miles on it. He goes down and gets the full $4500, plus $4000 coming from the dealership. (I'm guessing the dealership is getting that $4000 and isn't just giving it away). So basically this guy just made $4500. Out of OUR pockets.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. But it needs to be tweeked a little.

[Parkbandit]

I've always just given my junk cars to Kars for Kids. Just get a nice little tax break for them to handle the towing and scrapping I can't handle. And although I liked the idea of this package, there are too many loopholes.

Dude on the news this morning explained how he bought a car years ago for $4000. Put 220,000 miles on it. He goes down and gets the full $4500, plus $4000 coming from the dealership. (I'm guessing the dealership is getting that $4000 and isn't just giving it away). So basically this guy just made $4500. Out of OUR pockets.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. But it needs to be tweeked a little.

30 Billion + that went to GM.. right before it went into Bankruptcy came out of OUR pockets.

While I cannot participate in this program, the pros outweigh the cons imo. Tighten the thing up, but if you tighten it up too much.. like we always do with the brilliance of our Government.. it'll cease to work as intended.

[LMingrone]

30 Billion + that went to GM.. right before it went into Bankruptcy came out of OUR pockets.

While I cannot participate in this program, the pros outweigh the cons imo. Tighten the thing up, but if you tighten it up too much.. like we always do with the brilliance of our Government.. it'll cease to work as intended.

100% agreed. Damn, if my genius self can't even think of the right fix, how can I expect our assbackwards gov' to.

[ClydeR]

Well I agree with Senator DeMint. The government should not be in the business of paying for people's cars.


“The federal government went bankrupt in one week in the used-car business, and now they want to run our health care system,” Mr. DeMint said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “This is crazy to try to rush this thing through again while they’re trying to rush through health care, and they want to get on to cap-and-trade electricity tax. We’ve got to slow this thing down.”

More... (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/cash-for-clunkers-become-a-republican-target/?hp)

[CrystalTears]

I'm biased cause it's getting us lots of business. However this IS a great idea and should have been done long before they gave the car companies money to fail with. It's badly managed and why I don't approve of the government handling anything on a national scale, since they averaged 10 cars per dealership. Dur.

[TheRunt]

You have a car that gets lower than 18 mpg combined city and highway? How the fuck do so many people manage this?




Oh, shit, yeah, that engine is full of terrible mileage. I've got a 2.4 L I4 so maybe I'm just bitter.

Mines rated at 17.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySidePopUp.jsp?column=1&id=10106

And why's the 5.7 terrible, depends on the gearing. I'm running about 1500 rpm at 55.
And if I take it easy and set the cruise at 65 I can get right about 26-27 mpg on the highway. For the size of my boat that's pretty good.

[Daniel]

See.. and this is the standard line from the Republicans.

I say big fucking deal. I'd rather spend 3 billion on a program that actually stimulates the economy, helps one of the few big manufacturing sectors of this country, helps reduce our demand on foreign oil, reduces pollution and helps out a bunch of people.. than I would spend a dime on some bullshit liberal wish list that does nothing for the economy.

Republicans need to stop being stupid and becoming the party of "No".. regardless of the program's merits. This is less about the deficit spending (something Republicans don't have a leg to stand on) and more about stimulating the economy.

I see your non partisan post and raise you a "so, you're supporting obama now???"

[Daniel]

P.s. I love how people saying something being wildly successful is an indication that the government can't do anything right.

I'm sure you'll say the same thing to Apple the next time Iphone's sell out on the first day.

[Parkbandit]

I see your non partisan post and raise you a "so, you're supporting obama now???"

Sorry pal, I don't pick Presidents based upon how well they read and simply forget all of my principles and personal views.

[Parkbandit]

P.s. I love how people saying something being wildly successful is an indication that the government can't do anything right.

I'm sure you'll say the same thing to Apple the next time Iphone's sell out on the first day.

The indication is the amount of money put towards this program, as well as the loopholes that allow individuals to commit fraud against the Government. The program had to be halted what.. 2-3 DAYS after it began? That's awesome management of a program.. KUDOS GOVERNMENT!!

[Gan]

Hopefully the credit standards will remain in effect so we dont see massive defaults after the purchase tax payer subsidized new automobiles.

[Daniel]

The indication is the amount of money put towards this program, as well as the loopholes that allow individuals to commit fraud against the Government. The program had to be halted what.. 2-3 DAYS after it began? That's awesome management of a program.. KUDOS GOVERNMENT!!

The program was halted to get more money. Hardly an indication of failure, as that implies excess demand.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but seriously. You may want to wait a bit before claiming it a model example as to why governments don't work.

[Parkbandit]

The program was halted to get more money. Hardly an indication of failure, as that implies excess demand.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but seriously. You may want to wait a bit before claiming it a model example as to why governments don't work.

Where exactly did I post that, Captain Hyperbole? I've actually been a big fan of this tiny part of the Stimulus bill.. stating that it ACTUALLY stimulates the economy! I'm also a big fan of the tax credit for buying a house this year as well.

I simply believe that the US Government is a piss poor manager of any program.. this one not being any different. I mean, come on.. where else can a vehicle like a Hummer be considered an environmentally friendly vehicle that qualifies for this program?

[CrystalTears]

P.s. I love how people saying something being wildly successful is an indication that the government can't do anything right.I'm sorry but they did not do their research. They assumed the amount based on the theory that 10 cars per dealership in its lifetime would qualify for the reimbursement. The money ran out in what, a week?


I'm sure you'll say the same thing to Apple the next time Iphone's sell out on the first day.It's called track record. The government doesn't have a good one.

[Rocktar]

OK, so we gave out welfare to banks, auto industry, car dealers, the UAW, Americans driving older vehicles and so on, what about the welfare support for the appliance industry? What about home renovation or upgrade? How about education welfare? You want to improve America with selected stimulus, I would suggest that if you got people to upgrade refigerators that are more than 5 years old, you would save billions of killowatts of electricity, millions of tons of emissions and reduce dependance on foreign energy as well. Then there are things like upgrading central heat and air systems, insullation and so on. Want to really build America, we have a huge shortage of technical skilled people, Doctors, Teachers, and so on and it is only going to get worse, why not stimulate that economy too?

The idea is, it is still welfare and it is payback for votes. It is a good program and I would prefer that it was done in a different way, but still effective.

[TheWitch]

Turn off income tax for a year. Re-write tax code so no one gets screwed on the backend for that year. Then when the year is up, having spent that entire year figuring out how to do it right NOT FAST, reinstitute tax code that makes sense and does not have loopholes the size of the Lincoln Tunnel in it.

Or, pish away a billion here, a billion there, 140 billion somewhere else on pig odor and ACORN.

I am 100% thrilled that Ford, the NON bailmeout automaker, is making out the best from this. If my car qualified, and if I was prepared to take a gov't handout, I totally would have bought a Fusion hybrid.

This works, I think it needs $20 billion, but I also agree an additional incentive should be included to buy domestic. I would also like to see the fuel efficiency improvement requirements raised, if even a little.

[Daniel]

It's called track record. The government doesn't have a good one.

As compared to who? Private business?

[Bhuryn]

They could just get rid of federal income tax completely and not spend like hookers in saks with a stolen credit card.

[Daniel]

They could just get rid of federal income tax completely and not spend like hookers in saks with a stolen credit card.

Yea, and then we can go play with rainbows and unicorns and all live happily ever after!!!!!11!!!

[Mabus]

Yea, and then we can go play with rainbows and unicorns and all live happily ever after!!!!!11!!!

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[Methais]

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