Democrats gain powerful new ally

[Tolwynn]

Details here (http://news.aol.com/article/sarah-palin-stump-for-democrats/567777?icid=main|aimzones|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fn ews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fsarah-palin-stump-for-democrats%2F567777).

This news'll probably give more than a few moderate Democrats the pucker.

[Fallen]

Don't even need to click to know what it is about. Talk about a sticky situation.

[4a6c1]

Yeah not suprised. Before the presidential campaign she was big into the enviromental thing in Alaska. She pissed off alot of Republicans.

[Mikalmas]

Details here (http://news.aol.com/article/sarah-palin-stump-for-democrats/567777?icid=main|aimzones|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fn ews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fsarah-palin-stump-for-democrats%2F567777).

This news'll probably give more than a few moderate Democrats the pucker.

Believe me. I speak for most (though admittedly not all) Democrats when I say to you Republicans: Please, keep her on your side of the isle. Don't share.

[TheEschaton]

LOL @ her trying to form a "right-of-center" coalition. The Democrats are right of center, damn it, she's right of right.

[Parkbandit]

LOL @ her trying to form a "right-of-center" coalition. The Democrats are right of center, damn it, she's right of right.

Are you kidding me? Come on man.. at least be intellectually honest. There is nothing right about the Democratic party.. and I mean that in more than one way.

[AnticorRifling]

Believe me. I speak for most (though admittedly not all) Democrats when I say to you Republicans: Please, keep her on your side of the isle. Don't share. What makes you think we want her. It's like a bad game of red rover where we're just throwing the turd player instead of the one you called for!

[4a6c1]

Are you kidding me? Come on man.. at least be intellectually honest. There is nothing right about the Democratic party.. and I mean that in more than one way.

I dont think the Democrats know what they stand for. I think they just stand for eveything thats not typically Republican.

There are some moderate Democrats in Texas. I've voted for more than one in the past and I havent been disappointed but some of the other ones, wow...I just wonder what really matters to those guys? You know? Sometimes I cant tell.

[Daniel]

I dont think the Democrats know what they stand for. I think they just stand for eveything thats not typically Republican.

There are some moderate Democrats in Texas. I've voted for more than one in the past and I havent been disappointed but some of the other ones, wow...I just wonder what really matters to those guys? You know? Sometimes I cant tell.

Irony.

[Mikalmas]

Irony.

LOL. That!

[Gan]

LOL @ her trying to form a "right-of-center" coalition. The Democrats are right of center, damn it, she's right of right.

Democrats are right of center?

Who's left of center then?


:lol:

[Belnia]

Do not want :(

[Latrinsorm]

Democrats are right of center?

Who's left of center then?Europeans. American politics are ultra-homogenized, why do you think our party names are so vague?

[Rocktar]

Believe me. I speak for most (though admittedly not all) Democrats when I say to you Republicans: Please, keep her on your side of the isle. Don't share.

But sharing is caring and we are trying to have the new, kinder, gentler, more caring Republican Party, because we care, didn't you know that?

[Gan]

I seriously get a laugh at TheE's constant attempt to move the Democrat base away from the left. Its very entertaining.

[radamanthys]

The 'right' and 'left' idea is kinda skewed. It sorta depends on how you define it.

[Parkbandit]

I dont think the Democrats know what they stand for. I think they just stand for eveything thats not typically Republican.

There are some moderate Democrats in Texas. I've voted for more than one in the past and I havent been disappointed but some of the other ones, wow...I just wonder what really matters to those guys? You know? Sometimes I cant tell.


Replace Democrat with Republican and you would be equally correct.

[Tsa`ah]

Democrats are right of center?

Who's left of center then?

US labels are well and good, but they really don't sync with the rest of the world outside of our borders. As a whole, we're more conservative.

What we view as just left of center is actually slightly conservative on the world stage. Our liberals are viewed as moderates, which doesn't really bode well for those who are already a few steps to the right. Of course those on the far right are generally viewed as batshit crazy ... which shouldn't be a big surprise.

[Stanley Burrell]

But sharing is caring and we are trying to have the new, kinder, gentler, more caring Republican Party, because we care, didn't you know that?

That's like this time we went and bombed a country and killed a few people but we were all like, "COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE, WATCH OUT BITCHEZ."

No one seriously believed that God was channeling himself directly through GWB and now look at the price they've rightfully paid.

Good post, Rocktar :thumbup:

[radamanthys]

US labels are well and good, but they really don't sync with the rest of the world outside of our borders. As a whole, we're more conservative.

What we view as just left of center is actually slightly conservative on the world stage. Our liberals are viewed as moderates, which doesn't really bode well for those who are already a few steps to the right. Of course those on the far right are generally viewed as batshit crazy ... which shouldn't be a big surprise.

Republicans are evil. We get it. Move on.

[Tsa`ah]

Republicans are evil. We get it. Move on.

If that's what you were able to glean from the post ... I really think every educator in your past should be fired.

[Stanley Burrell]

As an aside, if we're the first of first world countries, why do we have to assume a contrast between the continent of Europe serving as the only proper dichotomy to spell out where we are on the political spectrum as far as a left-right basis goes?

I'm pretty darn liberal, but the center left/right comments baffle me.

[radamanthys]

If that's what you were able to glean from the post ... I really think every educator in your past should be fired.

That's nice.

[Lumi]

As an aside, if we're the first of first world countries, why do we have to assume a contrast between the continent of Europe serving as the only proper dichotomy to spell out where we are on the political spectrum as far as a left-right basis goes?

I'm pretty darn liberal, but the center left/right comments baffle me.

I think it's a matter of proportion. We're big, but if the rest of the world, more or less, is using a different scale, then I think there's more call to look at it from that perspective than from our own and say "rest of the world, you must change to fit our perspective!"

Then again, we still use the English system instead of metric, so wtf do I know?

[Latrinsorm]

As an aside, if we're the first of first world countries, why do we have to assume a contrast between the continent of Europe serving as the only proper dichotomy to spell out where we are on the political spectrum as far as a left-right basis goes?Position is relative, so if Eschaton says "Democrats are center-right" and Ganalon says "Democrats are to the left", they can both be right. Eschaton would be correct on the world stage, Ganalon would be correct in Texas, and we all know Texas has more guns than the world, so Texas wins.

[Gan]

I seriously doubt that TheE is attempting to appear 'global' in his representation of Democrats being right of center.

Actually, I believe that he is attempting to paint all Republicans as being far right and bat shit crazy radical by sliding the scale to the right so that Democrats, naturally left of center, now appear right of center.

And yet, nobody has pointed out that each side has the fringe (far right, far left) that can be in the same classification (bat shit crazy).

And you forgot to add the clinging to religion part Latrin. ;)

[Parkbandit]

And yet, nobody has pointed out that each side has the fringe (far right, far left) that can be in the same classification (bat shit crazy).


I just let the bat shit crazy liberals on this board think what they want. It's easier than trying to explain things to them.

[Kembal]

I seriously doubt that TheE is attempting to appear 'global' in his representation of Democrats being right of center.

Actually, I believe that he is attempting to paint all Republicans as being far right and bat shit crazy radical by sliding the scale to the right so that Democrats, naturally left of center, now appear right of center.

And yet, nobody has pointed out that each side has the fringe (far right, far left) that can be in the same classification (bat shit crazy).

And you forgot to add the clinging to religion part Latrin. ;)

Can't speak for TheE's intentions, but it is correct that the Democratic Party here would not be considered left of center in most other countries. It'd likely be considered centrist or right of center.

I mean, most democratic countries tolerate either former Communist parties or an actual Communist party in their political process (see India, which has 4 of them). Us? We'd probably set them on fire if they actually tried to get any traction here. (we certainly have far left people here, but they're not organized into any actual political party besides the Green Party, and that has no presence nationally.)

[Parkbandit]

I think TheE was comparing the Democratic Party to himself. We all know TheE is living in C-R-A-Z-Y-T-O-W-N.. and compared to himself, the Democratic Party looks rather "moderate".

[Gan]

:lol:

[Latrinsorm]

I seriously doubt that TheE is attempting to appear 'global' in his representation of Democrats being right of center.Dude lives in France! (Or did that not happen? I don't remember.)
Actually, I believe that he is attempting to paint all Republicans as being far right and bat shit crazy radical by sliding the scale to the right so that Democrats, naturally left of center, now appear right of center.I think he was trying to paint Fmr. Gov. Palin in particular as ultra-right, rather than Republicans in general. I think he would agree that on the global scale Republicans are philosophically interchangeable with Democrats.
And you forgot to add the clinging to religion part Latrin. ;)I had a logic professor once who would pause and yell "Dat's right!!" in his marvelous S. American accent when people said something that was correct. So for you, Ganalon, "..........dat's right!!" Americans either cling to religion or are sodomites, I think that's pretty well established.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Can't speak for TheE's intentions, but it is correct that the Democratic Party here would not be considered left of center in most other countries. It'd likely be considered centrist or right of center.


I agree that TheE's message of "The democrats aren't as bad as the liberals in Europe!" was a very good analogy. Someone should say that the Republicans aren't so bad compared to the Chinese government or something, and then they would be smart too.

[MrTastyHead]

My brother showed me an assignment one of his classes did when he was a poli-sci major. It was two lists of like 100 points, and their job was to decide which was for democrats and which was republicans.

There were less than 5 that actually differed.

[TheEschaton]

I was speaking in a generalized view of a political spectrum. Like MrTastyHead mentioned in the previous post, comparatively the two major parties in this country are not very different at all. Both are business driven and socially center-right or right. Both would be considered right of center anywhere else in the world just on their love of big business alone.

As for Gan's comments suggesting I was just trying to paint the Republican party batshit insane - eh. Philosophically, there are sane planks to the Republican platform - I just haven't seen any of those planks in action in the past 15 years. All I've seen is a combination of ultra-nationalism, religious fanaticism, and fervent fearmongering.

Why is it people like Olympia Snowe aren't the leaders of your party? Why is it Obama, who can be seen as, at best, a social conservative and an economic moderate President be painted as the great Red Menace?

-TheE-

[Gan]

Why is it Obama, who can be seen as, at best, a social conservative and an economic moderate President be painted as the great Red Menace?

-TheE-

Elaborate?

What about Obama makes you think he's a social conservative? What about him makes you think he's an economic moderate?

Just curious. (Not responsible for any hilarity that might or might not ensue)

[TheEschaton]

Social conservative - he's not for gay rights (and really never has been, despite how he campaigned), he isn't really pro-choice (though he parses himself very carefully)....these are just two prime examples.

Economically, he is still supporting a capitalist-based health care system, believes in propping up failed businesses, believes in private education, will provide tax cuts to appease the middle class, and so on, and so forth.


-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Social conservative - he's not for gay rights (and really never has been, despite how he campaigned), he isn't really pro-choice (though he parses himself very carefully)....these are just two prime examples.

What?

According to the resident gay community on this forum, Obama is very pro-gay rights and has been catering to them from the get go. Granted, I actually agree with you.. but that's not how many of the gays see him.

And Obama is clearly pro-choice. His voting record in the State Senate clearly demonstrates this.



Economically, he is still supporting a capitalist-based health care system, believes in propping up failed businesses, believes in private education, will provide tax cuts to appease the middle class, and so on, and so forth.


-TheE-

Propping up failed businesses is the exact opposite of conservative values. And providing tax cuts isn't about his economic philosophy.. it's about securing a 2nd term.

[TheEschaton]

Propping up failed businesses is quite the tenet of center-right economics - businesses "too big to fail", a market rife with backroom deals and power plays, corporate buyouts funding CEO's bonuses.....while that is definitely not in the Republican "philosophy", it has been a staple of the GOP for quite some time now. Like I said, what the GOP is founded on hasn't been seen in practice for quite some time.

A leftist attitude would be to provide the service through the government, not allow them to continue their philandering.

And before you go on the "But Obama's nationalizing everything!!!!!1111!one!!1" rant, he hasn't. He's literally given them a loan, to be paid back. And if they continue to fail, I imagine there'll be more bailout money, because these banks are too big to fail.

And just because Obama has been the "best" for gays so far does not, by any means, mean he is for gay rights.

[Parkbandit]

I agree that TheE's message of "The democrats aren't as bad as the liberals in Europe!" was a very good analogy. Someone should say that the Republicans aren't so bad compared to the Chinese government or something, and then they would be smart too.

Did you really compare Republicans to a Communist government?

I think you got hit in the head with too many totems.

[Rocktar]

A leftist attitude would be to provide the service through the government, not allow them to continue their philandering.

And before you go on the "But Obama's nationalizing everything!!!!!1111!one!!1" rant, he hasn't. He's literally given them a loan, to be paid back. And if they continue to fail, I imagine there'll be more bailout money, because these banks are too big to fail.

Ummm, well, there is a loan involved, there is also large (read controlling) interest in ownership, large (again controlling) interest in management and large (massive) limits on actions that can be taken without gaining government approval by those businesses who got just "a loan.”

Now, I don’t know about you, but I got a loan to buy my truck. The credit union promised me 3 things, they will report my payment history to the credit bureaus, they will have someone come take my truck if I default on the loan and I must maintain full coverage insurance on the truck for the life of the loan and they have right of receipt of any cash from an insurance claim up to the total amount due on the loan. I don’t recall them saying that they had a controlling interest in deciding when I could drive. They didn’t say they wanted to decide if I could carry people in my truck and I am pretty sure they didn’t give me a map with turn by turn directions as to where I could and could not go with my truck. They also didn’t limit where I could buy gas, who I could have service my truck and how much they could charge me for the service.

Whereas, in the bailout, there are numerous such conditions just like these connected to the loans. Many of the conditions are considered so onerous by many businesses that they choose to risk failing entirely rather than live by them. In addition, several businesses are working very hard and forgoing a lot of other, more profit making activities so they can pay back the loans and hopefully get the government out of their business as soon as possible. Passing up profits in the face of paying back cheap debt is NOT the action of a company who has just “a loan.” There is a lot more to it than that.

Lasty, I fail to see ANY relevance to comparing our politics to anyone else’s in the rest of the world. After all, they don’t look at us and say “Hey, those goofy Americans just voted to go deeper in debt, let’s follow along merrily regardless of our own impending financial peril.” They really don’t consider our politics too much, nor our opinion of them in the big picture when facing elections and the like, so why do we?

Obama is left of left, a Marxist pure and simple. The Democrat Socialist party is clearly Socialist and would be called Socialist in pretty much all the countries in the world and the Republican party would be called Conservative and unfortunately, confused.

[Parkbandit]

Propping up failed businesses is quite the tenet of center-right economics - businesses "too big to fail", a market rife with backroom deals and power plays, corporate buyouts funding CEO's bonuses.....while that is definitely not in the Republican "philosophy", it has been a staple of the GOP for quite some time now. Like I said, what the GOP is founded on hasn't been seen in practice for quite some time.

That is because the Republicans have turned away from their conservative values and are now trying to appease special groups to garner votes.. regardless of what that actually means to their values. Conservatives are and always have been against bailouts. There is no such "law" as "Too big to fail" when it comes to conservatives as failure is a part of the business learning process.



A leftist attitude would be to provide the service through the government, not allow them to continue their philandering.

Indeed. A leftist looks at the Government as their parent... able to fix all of their woes and destroy the evil rich people for having something they do not.



And before you go on the "But Obama's nationalizing everything!!!!!1111!one!!1" rant, he hasn't. He's literally given them a loan, to be paid back. And if they continue to fail, I imagine there'll be more bailout money, because these banks are too big to fail.

He did more than that. Instead of having the Chrysler and GM go through normal bankruptcy like all other failing companies should go through.. he gave huge chunks of the businesses to the unions.. paying off some election "debts" in the process. He installed his own leadership and direction.. got them to agree to certain environmentalist terms... THEN put them through bankruptcy.


And just because Obama has been the "best" for gays so far does not, by any means, mean he is for gay rights.

I'll let Ravenstorm deal with this.. since I've argued the same exact thing with him and was basically told I wasn't gay, so I couldn't possibly understand.

[Ravenstorm]

I'll let Ravenstorm deal with this.. since I've argued the same exact thing with him and was basically told I wasn't gay, so I couldn't possibly understand.

I'd like a direct quote for that if you're claiming I said that. What I said was that you were wrong in that Obama did not campaign directly to us.

I agree with you and TheE and said so the last time I posted about Obama. He courted the gay community vociferously. He claimed to be our "fierce advocate" and yes, that phrase is a direct quote. And once he was elected, he's backpedaled on every issue, rephrasing his intent (such as he's now in favor of 'changing' DADT instead of repealing it and pushing back the timeline 'before the sun sets on this administration' on other issues). He's still a better choice on every issue than McCain but he's been very disappointing when it comes to his promises to us and it's beginning to bite the Democratic party as a whole in the ass as far as fund raising and support goes.

[TheEschaton]

Lasty, I fail to see ANY relevance to comparing our politics to anyone else’s in the rest of the world. After all, they don’t look at us and say “Hey, those goofy Americans just voted to go deeper in debt, let’s follow along merrily regardless of our own impending financial peril.” They really don’t consider our politics too much, nor our opinion of them in the big picture when facing elections and the like, so why do we?

Obama is left of left, a Marxist pure and simple. The Democrat Socialist party is clearly Socialist and would be called Socialist in pretty much all the countries in the world and the Republican party would be called Conservative and unfortunately, confused.

Do you recognize A) the irony of you saying "where our politics fall according to the rest of the world is irrelevant, and then saying what our government would look like "to the rest of the world", and B) the inherent idiocy of your analysis?

The rest of the world DOES follow U.S. politics. When I lived in Africa, that's all anyone ever wanted to talk to me about - John Kerry versus George Bush, American policies which affected Africa, and so on, so forth. When I visit my native India, chai wallahs (tea sellers) on the street ask me about American politics, outsourcing, and the U.S. policy towards Pakistan. The world cares about U.S. politics precisely because the U.S. has (wrongly, imo) made itself touch the whole world's politics. It has been the stated agenda of the political right, through organizations such as PNAC, to have a global U.S. hegemony, ie, a new world order of countries operating not in their own national interest, but ours.

Then, in your very next paragraph, you throw the baby out with the bathwater - "what the world views our politic system is irrelevant", but apparently you can make judgments about where Obama falls in the world political spectrum, by A) mixing two distinct philosophies in Communism and Socialism, B) comparing Obama to a Russian philosopher, and C) declaring him to be left of the far leftist in the rest of the world.

Let me guess - you've never left the United States.

Had you the least semblence of any knowledge of world politics, you would not be able to say with a straight face that Obama, or any Democrat, is a Socialist (short of Bernie Sanders, who is technically an Independent), any more than you could say Margaret Thatcher was.

Lastly, I'd love to see your proof of the government controlling business decisions and running these companies, especially the part where you claim that these companies are "making less profitable decisions to pay off loans than make profit." Wouldn't the most profitable strategy be the quickest way to pay off loans? The only thing I can possibly think of you referring to is the cap on executive BONUSES, which is entirely like a loan agreement. When you took out a loan for your truck, I'm pretty sure the loan company would not agree to let you spend the money on, say, renovating your patio - you know why? Because that would be fraud and misrepresentation. The loans given to banks, etc, was specifically to provide them the capital to secure their debt, not create more debt by paying out larger bonuses.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Lasty, I fail to see ANY relevance to comparing our politics to anyone else’s in the rest of the world.Because failure to do so leads people to losing all rational frame of reference, which in turn leads to comments like "The Democrat Socialist party is clearly Socialist and would be called Socialist in pretty much all the countries in the world". The Democrats are currently massively in power and there are actual socialist and communist countries in the world, you can honestly see no differences if you blind yourself to all but American politics for long enough.

We're easily the most heterogeneous and diverse country in the world, how could our political parties be anything but centrist?