Paladin Pros and Cons

[Fulmen]

I moved this conversation over here from where it came up.


Paladins have no reliable crowd control

Aura of the Arkati is reliable crowd control for anything 10 levels under you. That's relatively similar to Quake, Tremors, Ewave, or Call Wind. The best crowd control in my opinion is Mass Calm, which is so good that it's a little ridiculous. For on-par crowd control, there's mstrike and Judgment, even room webs, although you have to be careful not to hit the bystanders with Aura and Judgment both. And, unlike some, I use Pious Trial all the time when there are a few mobs around me that I'd like to hit me less. I also have Ewave and Call Wind MR items.


ridiculous training costs, it's impossible to train any "fun" skills without making major sacrifices

All semis are strapped for points. I've played nearly every class in Gemstone. I don't see a difference.


there is no development for them at all. That's just the main things.

That one I grant, in specific. I really like the ARMOR features that came out recently. Hopefully there will be more development for the missing Paladin spells. There are some good suggestions on the officials. I wouldn't get rid of Aura of the Arkati though. It's excellent in invasions or when escorting through hordes of mobs. I had 25 critters bound in a room when I was doing an escort and ran into that undead invasion in Vaalor.

[Bhuryn]

Paladins have no reliable crowd control. You can't say AA because if you can use it you can't learn from the target.

The fact we have to use a 30 mana spell that's target capped and isn't even garanteed to KNEEL the target if it wards let alone doesn't knock down critters to their back is a joke.

I'd argue that with the exception of a few spells, paladins would be more powerful if they exchange the paladin circle for the minor elemental circle.

[Fulmen]

So invest in an Ewave or Call Wind imbed. I prefer the latter, since it gets rid of clouds too.

What class would you prefer?

[Izzy]

Paladins have no reliable crowd control. You can't say AA because if you can use it you can't learn from the target.

The fact we have to use a 30 mana spell that's target capped and isn't even garanteed to KNEEL the target if it wards let alone doesn't knock down critters to their back is a joke.

I'd argue that with the exception of a few spells, paladins would be more powerful if they exchange the paladin circle for the minor elemental circle.

...Paladins are supposed to be physical. The fact that they have any aoe crowd control is something you should appreciate. They get ridiculous AS, that's their role. Do warriors have crowd control? Do rogues? Not without incredible TP investments. If you want crowd control get some 410 imbeds. Or roll a class that's meant for it. They don't need to be more powerful.

[TheLastShamurai]

1630 has been more than enough crowd control for me personally. Rarely do I encounter more targets than I can handle with 50 Summoning. {I know everyone doesn't have 50 Summon, however. But they should! Pre-cap}

The thing I would like to see the most is a Dodge enhancer of some sort.

EDIT: And more CMANs. For fuck sake, more CMANs.

[thefarmer]

Aura of the Arkati is reliable crowd control for anything 10 levels under you. I wouldn't get rid of Aura of the Arkati though. It's excellent in invasions or when escorting through hordes of mobs. I had 25 critters bound in a room when I was doing an escort and ran into that undead invasion in Vaalor.

Because hunting 10 levels under is what we really want to do to have a usable spell. Nor do we want our invasion tactics to be limited to those 10 levels under us either.



All semis are strapped for points. I've played nearly every class in Gemstone. I don't see a difference.

False.



Hopefully there will be more development for the missing Paladin spells. There are some good suggestions on the officials.

With 1 post from the Paladin guru in 7-8 months, and that for a bandaid fix from a nerf from dev elsewhere? Don't count on it.

[thefarmer]

...Paladins are supposed to be physical. The fact that they have any aoe crowd control is something you should appreciate. They get ridiculous AS, that's their role. Do warriors have crowd control? Do rogues? Not without incredible TP investments. If you want crowd control get some 410 imbeds. Or roll a class that's meant for it. They don't need to be more powerful.

Warriors and rogues are squares. Compared to the other Semis our crowd control is lacking and of a limited nature.

[Izzy]

Warriors and rogues are squares. Compared to the other Semis our crowd control is lacking and of a limited nature.

Because the role of the paladin is to be the physical semi. Compared to the paladin, rangers are lacking in AS. Does that mean they should be buffed? Neither bards nor rangers can cast reliably in plate, either. Should that change? No. I think they all have their roles, we don't need to make all professions equal.

[Bhuryn]

Because the role of the paladin is to be the physical semi. Compared to the paladin, rangers are lacking in AS. Does that mean they should be buffed? Neither bards nor rangers can cast reliably in plate, either. Should that change? No. I think they all have their roles, we don't need to make all professions equal.


I disagree, all of them should be as equal as possible. They shouldn't be the same. If you think paladins are even in the same universe as bards when it comes to power, you're retarded.

[TheLastShamurai]

Because the role of the paladin is to be the physical semi. Compared to the paladin, rangers are lacking in AS. Does that mean they should be buffed? Neither bards nor rangers can cast reliably in plate, either. Should that change? No. I think they all have their roles, we don't need to make all professions equal.

Although a lot of people {staff included} echo this sentiment, I find it quite ironic since I consider us as remarkably lacking in a lot of "physical" areas. I think the only thing more physical about us in comparison to Rangers and Bards is our ability to 3x Armor and generate leet raw AS pre-cap.

That's just my opinion however.

[Bhuryn]

Sadly bards and rangers can both apply their AS alot better then paladins can.

[Swami71]

I know very little about paladins but as i see it....

Pros
High AS
Hunt undead not needing to search for a bless
Armor specialization fluidity (one of the best)
Unique group spells 1609, 1617, 1618
Can raise dead (although usually not wanted since they can't chrism)

Cons
Lack of crowd control?
Doesn't have a service to offer others, i.e. wizards enchanting, rogue locksmith, bard loresong+unique group spells, warrior assessing+warcries, ranger nature resistance, empath healing, cleric raise dead with exp. (right up there with sorcerers)

[Bhuryn]

-Can't really use the offensive portions of minor spiritual circle.
-We can't apply our AS as well as rangers or bards.
-We have two pre-cap training plans 1h/shield and 2h or poles. Rangers and bards have 5-6 available.
-We have the worst training point commitment of any semi for our "base" plans.

[Stunseed]

Although a lot of people {staff included} echo this sentiment, I find it quite ironic since I consider us as remarkably lacking in a lot of "physical" areas. I think the only thing more physical about us in comparison to Rangers and Bards is our ability to 3x Armor and generate leet raw AS pre-cap.

That's just my opinion however.

1. Casting in plate.
2. Surge.
3. Wspec.

BTW, your cry for more CMAN's can get to the back of the bus. Rangers are far worse off cman-wise.

[Bhuryn]

1. Casting in plate.
2. Surge.
3. Wspec.

BTW, your cry for more CMAN's can get to the back of the bus. Rangers are far worse off cman-wise.


But better off in general. Bards even more so.

[TheLastShamurai]

BTW, your cry for more CMAN's can get to the back of the bus. Rangers are far worse off cman-wise.

I tend to agree that semis in general need more CMANs and have never claimed otherwise {I personally believe they should just merge the three semi lists}. But I was merely making an observation about my profession, so I don't really understand the hostility in your statement.

EDIT: I suppose I should clarify, I don't consider us to be weak physically, I just find the statement ironic when all the semis {in my opinion} have comparable physical offense in their own right. And I do not want more CMANs to be the leet "physical" semi, just for fun and flavor.

[Fulmen]

A lot of complaining, but if that's the case why not move to a different class? I'm entirely happy with my Paladin. A few things could change, sure. Improvements here and there. But in general my Paladin is a veritable tank.

Huge AS, huge DF, huge Block chance, great self-spelled DS, CMAN boost, and Spirit TD, insanely useful Beseech (like this isn't great? And I barely need it, since few things get past my regular DS and padded plate/redux).

Between my platemail, just my personal spells, and Beseech, I hardly ever die. What usually kills me is a lightning-attuned Major Ewave when I'm lying down.

Aura is a DS pushdown for the room, and things are easy to hit with it. Where's the problem there? Follow it with a Judgment and a few open mstrikes. Things die. We don't need a room-wide RT generator/knockdown like Ewave, since we're perfectly suited to taking the hits from creatures while we kill them. An ewave or Call Wind imbed will add a nice boost to that.

Compared to a Paladin, Rangers and Bards are squishy.

I would definitely like a Paladin-specific asset for other players besides Armored Fluidity. Assessing sancted weapons is nice, but not that useful since a Bard can tell the same thing.

And I can carry old manna bread in my cloak, Purify it, and it's still as good as new three days later despite the changes to the manna spell.

[Fulmen]

Because hunting 10 levels under is what we really want to do to have a usable spell. Nor do we want our invasion tactics to be limited to those 10 levels under us either.

The mass bind is not meant to be a hunting technique. If it were, it would be utterly ridiculous for a Paladin, considering the duration on the spell. It's basically the same as as a mass Prayer of Holding.

[Bhuryn]

The mass bind is not meant to be a hunting technique. If it were, it would be utterly ridiculous for a Paladin, considering the duration on the spell. It's basically the same as as a mass Prayer of Holding.

really?

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Censure

You're also missing the fact that bards/rangers don't need plate and huge Redux simply because they can control multiple mobs much better then we can. That's not to say it's not an option for them, many bards/rangers have pretty serviceable semi-redux.

[Stunseed]

No hostility, was trying to be joking about the bus comment.

I personally believe of an open cman list with variable costs.

[Fulmen]

really?

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Censure

Have you seen the duration on Censure? It's ridiculously short, especially if you can barely ward the creature. I was a priest before I was a Paladin, and that spell is basically useless.

Plus, it makes far more sense for a squishy cleric to get a Mass Bind than it does for a walking tank of a Paladin.

It sounds like you just want the best of every class to be in your class, rather than working with the differences. Seriously, what kills you as a Paladin? Compare that to any other class.

[Fulmen]

You're also missing the fact that bards/rangers don't need plate and huge Redux simply because they can control multiple mobs much better then we can. That's not to say it's not an option for them, many bards/rangers have pretty serviceable semi-redux.

There's your class balance.

[Bhuryn]

Have you seen the duration on Censure? It's ridiculously short, especially if you can barely ward the creature. I was a priest before I was a Paladin, and that spell is basically useless.

Plus, it makes far more sense for a squishy cleric to get a Mass Bind than it does for a walking tank of a Paladin.

It sounds like you just want the best of every class to be in your class, rather than working with the differences. Seriously, what kills you as a Paladin? Compare that to any other class.

My bard dies alot less.

[Bhuryn]

There's your class balance.

It's not really balance but you can believe what you want. You'll always be inferior, but that's your proagative.

[TheLastShamurai]

No hostility, was trying to be joking about the bus comment.

I personally believe of an open cman list with variable costs.

Ah, sorry then, a misinterpretation on my part.

An open CMAN list would be great. Sadly, even though it makes sense, I doubt it will ever happen. :( Too much awesome is not how we roll.

[Fallen]

So invest in an Ewave or Call Wind imbed. I prefer the latter, since it gets rid of clouds too.

What class would you prefer?

Sure, but a warrior or rogue with said items would be better off.

[Stunseed]

There's your class balance.

Bards have an unstun and can have the highest AS. Has Charge as a cman.
Paladins have an unstun and have the second highest AS. Has Charge as a cman.

Rangers have....Spikethorn.

Balance that.

[Fallen]

Rangers also have Wall of Thorns, which is a ridiculously awesome spell for defensive purposes. Animal Companions are where rangers start to lose ground. They are supposed to be filling the role of a lot of different support functions, and they flat-out fail at it for the most part. They are a glorified RP tool. Better than Minor Demons, but that isn't saying much.

Is 650 still broke (for the better), or did they fix that?

[Bhuryn]

Let's not forget song of tonis.

[Stunseed]

< Rangers also have Wall of Thorns >

It is awesome. Bards have Song of Mirrors to dodge, and Paladins have Divine Shield.

Yes, 650 is still broke.

[Bhuryn]

< Rangers also have Wall of Thorns >

It is awesome. Bards have Song of Mirrors to dodge, and Paladins have Divine Shield.

Yes, 650 is still broke.

If they use a shield which I would argue makes they substantially weaker as a class. I die alot less with two handed weapons simply because I can actually MS and sometimes have it work out for me. Morning stars, not so much. Both WoT and SoM work no matter what weapon type bards/rangers are using.

[Widgets]

I still like Paladins....But then again I love Rogues as well....

I tend to judge a Paladin as a Physical Class with a Supportive Magical Role for their physical prowess...IE: Super High AS from Self Cast alone.

[thefarmer]

And I can carry old manna bread in my cloak, Purify it, and it's still as good as new three days later despite the changes to the manna spell.

It's not good as new.


Therefore, Purify will now have diminished returns when reducing the spoilage of manna bread, determined by the Paladin's skill.

GameMaster Estild

The fact you think it is, just tells me that your knowledge of Paladin issues is lacking in experience.

[Bhuryn]

I still like Paladins....But then again I love Rogues as well....

I tend to judge a Paladin as a Physical Class with a Supportive Magical Role for their physical prowess...IE: Super High AS from Self Cast alone.

Honestly I wish people would stop saying this is a benefit to the class. Take a look at bards AS sometime. Bards have self-haste as well as multiple ways to deal with multiple mobs.

[Fulmen]

It's not good as new.


The fact you think it is, just tells me that your knowledge of Paladin issues is lacking in experience.

I can tell you for a fact that the maximum mana boost generated by the manna bread is the same three days later at 25 Blessing Ranks. Possibly the mana regen added from MjS ranks is less, I haven't noticed the difference.

You're combining a lot of supposition into that accusation, Farmer. Try throwing some stats out.

[Fulmen]

Honestly I wish people would stop saying this is a benefit to the class. Take a look at bards AS sometime. Bards have self-haste as well as multiple ways to deal with multiple mobs.

And a Paladin has a higher armor class, better redux, a better damage factor, and Beseech that always works when you are already stunned, webbed, bound, etc.

[Stunseed]

If they use a shield which I would argue makes they substantially weaker as a class. I die alot less with two handed weapons simply because I can actually MS and sometimes have it work out for me. Morning stars, not so much. Both WoT and SoM work no matter what weapon type bards/rangers are using.

Sneaking and Camo lend strength to archery. You choose the mutant path, as do I.

[Widgets]

Honestly I wish people would stop saying this is a benefit to the class. Take a look at bards AS sometime. Bards have self-haste as well as multiple ways to deal with multiple mobs.

Paladins can have self haste, if they invest in MIU...We also have a way to deal with multiple mobs...1630...MoC...Fire Spirit...Webs...The options are there, it's just not as easy to do until later on end game with the right amount of lores and the like, that much I agree on.

But simply saying this or that, when it's still attainable, is just silly. We just have to work harder at it...

Armor Use..........................| 302 202
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 145 45
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 302 202
Dodging............................| 302 202
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 102 24
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 175 75
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 191 91
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 130 35
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 50

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 86

[Back]

Paladin Pros...

Sanctify. Making your own permablessed, +5 str, wis enhancive, +10 CML, double plasma flaring, return on disarm/hurl, extra infused spell weapon = crazy delicious. The extra infused spell is the weakest bene but it can be better utilized later on as more MTPs become available.

Divine Intervention. Get out of jail free.

Aid the Fallen. When Fallen needs aid. lawl. But a nice utility that helps other classes.

Semi Redux. I don't know about other semis but it seems to me paladins get this earlier due to heavy PTPs early on.

Lowest casting hindrance in plate for both circles with a spell to aid that problem and the ability to triple armor.

The new Armor feature. Though I would like to see ALL Armor specs added to paladins.

I really like the way paladins can diversify as they gain levels.

I rarely die even when uphunting.


Cons...

Crowd control. This is my biggest problem at level 40. I don’t have the points to train MOC yet, 1614, 1615 and 1630 costs more than individual shots of 1602. I only use 1615 and 1630 at the end of my hunts when I am being lazy at like level. My CS is not high enough even with 1612 to really affect up levels. With mana as tight as it is even with 1x HP I feel like 1614 and 1615 are so similar they could take one slot and put some other spell in there. I’ve tried using Voln symbols but they don’t help as much as I’d like.

Very very very tight, disciplined, training path. Weapon/shield, polearm. In some ways I like this because I have found that as you gain levels you have more points to expand into auxiliary skills like lores, mana control, MIU and even AS... but I WANT IT ALL NOW!!!!

My last con is unreasonable. I hate having to chase down bards to tell me the properties of the goodies I loot from graveyards.

[thefarmer]

I can tell you for a fact that the maximum mana boost generated by the manna bread is the same three days later at 25 Blessing Ranks. Possibly the mana regen added from MjS ranks is less, I haven't noticed the difference.

You're combining a lot of supposition into that accusation, Farmer. Try throwing some stats out.


What stats are you talking about?

It's clearly there in the announcment by Estild. Purify has diminishing returns. These lesser returns were put there on purpose. What are you arguing?

It's not a stretch to say you don't understand Paladins when you don't understand even the most recent change to the profession.

[thefarmer]

Paladin Pros...

I really like the way paladins can diversify as they gain levels.

I rarely die even when uphunting.





Paladins really don't diversify. Even post-cap.

And what levels are you uphunting?

[Fulmen]

What stats are you talking about?

It's clearly there in the announcment by Estild. Purify has diminishing returns. These lesser returns were put there on purpose. What are you arguing?

It's not a stretch to say you don't understand Paladins when you don't understand even the most recent change to the profession.

You've missed the point, Farmer. The maximum mana (+22) in this case, is still there. I can carry the bread around for days, pull it out of my cloak, and chew on it. And what Estild said is that it's dependent on training, without revealing how exactly training affects Purify on manna bread. The diminishing returns may come into effect well after the three days that are in question here.

[Back]

Paladins really don't diversify. Even post-cap.

In the MTP realm, as I see it at level 40, they can. You could recoup spell ranks, go heavy lore, heavy MIU, AS, SMC not to mention PTP skills that require MTPs like MOC, CM, Ambush for open...



And what levels are you uphunting?

Exclusively hunting undead it has been at least a few levels pre-twenties and 10 now. 1v1 solo no problem actually.

[Back]

As a Post Script...

I think paladins are fine with 1x CM considering the +10 CML bonus to Sanctify and the ability to 1x Dodge from level 1. Feint, surge and wspec are all you really need. Again, as you gain more MTPs you can add CM ranks and add more CM maneuvers.

[ZeP]

On paladin crowd control, 25 ranks of Religion lore and 24 ranks of Summoning lore gives you 5 targets with an 85% chance to force each to kneel when using 1630. Casting in plate. I think that is pretty decent for "the most physical of the semi classes". And that is around level 50ish singling in lores.

[thefarmer]

Re: paladins shouldn't be able to raise. · on 7/8/2009 12:45:53 AM 2727


Reply
Hey guys. I do apologize for a lack of presence around here lately, but I typically won't post without having something meaningful to say. As was mentioned, I do read these topics regularly, and I do save off the interesting ideas that you put together.

I generally share a lot of the concerns that the community feels exist with Paladins, and plan on doing what I can to address those concerns. Though my current focus is on the development of the Rift expansion, I will be shifting that focus to professional development after its arrival.

My attention will be primarily on 1613, 1614, and 1640, but I've picked up some other ideas that I'll be delving into as well.

In the mean time, continue posting your ideas and concerns -- I do appreciate them.

-M.

lulz

[thefarmer]

In the MTP realm, as I see it at level 40, they can. You could recoup spell ranks, go heavy lore, heavy MIU, AS, SMC not to mention PTP skills that require MTPs like MOC, CM, Ambush for open...

At level 40?

What happens at level 40?

[Back]

At level 40?

What happens at level 40?

Thats just where I am. 1x Climb/Swim is done and now I can pour more PTPs into what I want like MOC with my extra MTPs or I could go Ambush, or more CM, or more Armor and lore or any other magic auxiliary. Depends on how you want to play.

Look at the costs. Its not that hard to play a paladin. But to play a paladin you need patience.

[thefarmer]

Thats just where I am. 1x Climb/Swim is done and now I can pour more PTPs into what I want like MOC with my extra MTPs or I could go Ambush, or more CM, or more Armor and lore or any other magic auxiliary. Depends on how you want to play.

Look at the costs. Its not that hard to play a paladin. But to play a paladin you need patience.

Skills?

[Back]

Skills?

You have given me shit about not knowing how to play a paladin or how I fail to realize that paladins suck.

For your amusement, or perhaps for your edification, I am more than happy to give you MY particular training path at just having reached level 40.


(at level 40), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Shield Use.........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 141 41
Edged Weapons......................| 182 82
Physical Fitness...................| 180 80
Dodging............................| 141 41
Magic Item Use.....................| 45 9
Harness Power......................| 141 41
Spirit Mana Control................| 5 1
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 40 8
Perception.........................| 141 41
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 3

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 33
Training Points: 5 Phy 4 Mnt

[thefarmer]

You have given me shit about not knowing how to play a paladin or how I fail to realize that paladins suck.

For your amusement, or perhaps for your edification, I am more than happy to give you MY particular training path at just having reached level 40.

The reason I asked for your skills is to see why you thought level 40 was such a good place to diversify. By your training, I can see that you're lacking in areas that most Paladins don't.

It doesn't changed the fact I think you have much to learn about Paladins as a whole. I have not, however, said Paladins suck. I've said they could be improved, and that prior to Mestys post, dev absent.

[Back]

The reason I asked for your skills is to see why you thought level 40 was such a good place to diversify. By your training, I can see that you're lacking in areas that most Paladins don't.

It doesn't changed the fact I think you have much to learn about Paladins as a whole. I have not, however, said Paladins suck. I've said they could be improved, and that prior to Mestys post, dev absent.

Regardless, I’m happy.

And yes while I like the paladin spell circle there is room to improve. I also don’t think paladins need to raise. The only reason I would train up the paladin circle is for CS because MSS offers so little. Ok, maybe 107, but after 1635...

[Durgrimst]

Armor Use..........................| 302 202
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 145 45
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 302 202
Dodging............................| 302 202
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 102 24
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 175 75
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 191 91
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 130 35
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 50

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 86

I call BS on this...

[thefarmer]

You've missed the point, Farmer. The maximum mana (+22) in this case, is still there. I can carry the bread around for days, pull it out of my cloak, and chew on it.

Replying to this late, but here it is.

With the initial cast, and with a +5 per 10 seed, you can't get +22. You either get +20 Max Mana at 46 ranks or +25 Max Mana at 60 ranks.


And what Estild said is that it's dependent on training, without revealing how exactly training affects Purify on manna bread. The diminishing returns may come into effect well after the three days that are in question here.

Here:


The Manna (203) spell has been redesigned. Instead of providing only 1 extra mana per minute, the effect will now provide a variable amount based upon the caster's spell ranks in the Major Spiritual circle. The new formula is 1 + 1 per seed 4 spell ranks. For example, it will provide +5 mana every minute once the caster knows up to spell 222, +8 mana at 249, +12 mana at 299, etc. The effect will continue to affect spirit regeneration at the same rate as before, but will no longer not affect health.

The lore benefit of the spell has also been reworked as such: Spiritual Lore, Blessings will add to the consumer's maximum mana at a rate of +5 per seed 10 summation. For example, at 46 lore ranks, it grants +20 maximum mana; at 145 lore ranks, +50 maximum mana.



Therefore, Purify will now have diminished returns when reducing the spoilage of manna bread, determined by the Paladin's skill. The mana regeneration rate will be set to 3 + seed 2 summation of Spiritual Lore, Blessings. The maximum mana lore bonus will be set to 10 + (5 * seed 5 summation of Spiritual Lore, Blessings). If the existing effectiveness is less than the Paladin's skill set, then the stats are not affected, but the food is no longer spoiled.

[StrayRogue]

So invest in an Ewave or Call Wind imbed. I prefer the latter, since it gets rid of clouds too.

What class would you prefer?

Stupid argument as everyone has access to this. Argue about what one can do under their own steam or don't argue at all.

[Danical]

I'd rather see awesome suggestions instead of debating whether or not Paladins deserve love. I think all classes can be improved in some capacity. Personally, I love synergistic powers/abilities:



1602

Addition: The target receives a 25% base reduction of E/B/P ability enhanced by SL:Summoning at a rate of 3% per Seed 5 Summation.

Addition: If the target is already under the effects of Aura of the Arkati [1614] the base E/B/P reduction is increased by 25% to a total base rate of 50% and the SL:Summoning enhancement becomes 3% per Seed 1 Summation.

Rational: Increase effectiveness/desirability of lower level spells thereby allowing the option of using them at the top tier of play, if only at least situationally. <3 Synergy. Lastly, a target burdened and slowed should be worse at E/B/P. Nuff said.

1613

Existing Content Scrapped Completely.

Description: Any attacking creature causing damage to the paladin might draw the attention of the Paladin's Arkati. If the Arkati takes notice, the offending creature will be subject to the Arkati's wrath though which the Paladin is the instrument of vengeance.

Mechanics: The Arkati responds at a base 20% modified by 5% per Seed 10 SL:Religion. If the Arkati responds, appropriate messaging will follow immediately after the creature's attack. From now until the creature dies or despawns, the Paladin gains a bonus to AS and CS equal toward the creature equal 10 + 1 per Seed 3 SL:Blessing. If the Paladin has Guiding Light [1609] flares, either via 1609 or 1625, the initial flare has a 20% increased chance for an initial flare. If the Paladin has Arm of the Arkati [1605] active, the DF boost of the spell is doubled. The effects of Divine Vengeance do not stack but may apply to any number of creatures.

Rational: Effective while still alive. I mean, honestly, who really cares if the current incarnation attempts kills a single creature when you die?

1614

Addition: Warded creatures suffer a 10% global vulnerability to all damage types modified by 1% per Seed 6 SL:Religion.

Addition: If a creature is under the effects of Divine Vengeance, the creature is considered 5 levels lower for the effects kneeling/immobilization.

[Fallen]

Paladins can have self haste, if they invest in MIU...We also have a way to deal with multiple mobs...1630...MoC...Fire Spirit...Webs...The options are there, it's just not as easy to do until later on end game with the right amount of lores and the like, that much I agree on.

It isn't really fair to list outside aid in a discussion of core strengths unless you have class specific spells and abilities which support your use of said items (Scroll Infusion/Charge Item).

Two things that would help a great deal to help Paladins would be either A. A boost to one of their spells to elevate it from a hit or miss disabler, to a solid disabler, and B. A self-haste effect, even if expensive. Other abilities would add flare to the class, like being able to make sanctified gear reactive, or shield/armor bonding, but it wouldn't fundamentally increase the power of the profession.

Still, being able to tweak hindrance is a pretty awesome upgrade for a Paladin. IMO it was the best of the armor use upgrades, as you can benefit from the armor tweaks of others like the damage type resistances, and still use your own.

[Fulmen]

Replying to this late, but here it is.

With the initial cast, and with a +5 per 10 seed, you can't get +22. You either get +20 Max Mana at 46 ranks or +25 Max Mana at 60 ranks.


Thanks for the stats, Farmer. I'll bring you some bread. It may be weird, but it really is +22 to maximum mana. There must be something else in there besides pure Blessing ranks that's affecting it. According to these formulas, I can restore this particular bread to it's complete original effectiveness.

[Fulmen]

1613 is utterly useless. I agree on that. I use it as a dispel buffer.

[Fallen]

1613 should just be converted to that function. Someone needs a good dispel buff spell. Why not Paladins? Sure, the arcane spell list will get one, but isn't it the first spell in the circle? It would be nice if Paladins had a spell which can eat up multiple dispel attempts, and totally null a Mass spiritual dispel with appropriate lore training.

[Fulmen]

Stupid argument as everyone has access to this. Argue about what one can do under their own steam or don't argue at all.

Under my own steam, I can single-target Spirit Dispel a cloud/open void/tempest/webs, Fire Spirit away webs and Ice Patches, etc. Do you think a warrior or rogue would do it better? Heavy armor will block their casting even if they learn Spirit or Elemental Dispel.

[Fallen]

Sure, if they took the advice that is being offered by many defenders of Paladins here: used a magic item. Rods imbedded with either dispel could do the trick just as easily, and as the circles are known to Rogues and Warriors, it wouldn't require too steep of a MIU requirement to activate.

[Fulmen]

Sure, if they took the advice that is being offered by many defenders of Paladins here: used a magic item. Rods imbedded with either dispel could do the trick just as easily, and as the circles are known to Rogues and Warriors, it wouldn't require too steep of a MIU requirement to activate.

Aye, I agree on that Fallen. StrayRogue is just taking potshots at me for mentioning MIU as something useful to the class.

[Fallen]

Aye, I agree on that Fallen. StrayRogue is just taking potshots at me for mentioning MIU as something useful to the class.

I wouldn't feel too singled out about that. He is right, though, that working MIU/Arcane Symbols into one's training plan shouldn't be seen as a strength of a profession unless they have the means to do so more easily than is the norm.

[Fulmen]

I wouldn't feel too singled out about that. He is right, though, that working MIU/Arcane Symbols into one's training plan shouldn't be seen as a strength of a profession unless they have the means to do so more easily than is the norm.

Aye, it's not easy to work MIU in as a Paladin with the 6MTP cost, which is higher than HP (5MTP) and slightly less than a single-trained lore rank (7MTP). But it is worth it. I didn't pick any of it up until after 60--the points were better spent elsewhere.

I wouldn't call MIU a Paladin strength, but it does add some nice abilities for us.

[Fallen]

Aye, it's not easy to work MIU in as a Paladin with the 6MTP cost, which is higher than HP (5MTP) and slightly less than a single-trained lore rank (7MTP). But it is worth it. I didn't pick any of it up until after 60--the points were better spent elsewhere.

I wouldn't call MIU a Paladin strength, but it does add some nice abilities for us.

Agreed. I think MIU/Arcane Symbols is actually most important for square characters, then physical semi's, then everyone else. Why? Because it can aid greatly to make up for all the weaknesses of your profession. It is just icing on the cake for pures.

[Bhuryn]

And a Paladin has a higher armor class

I would just like to point out as an adendum that with shields, this is probably not the case given the way sonic shields/armor work with 1x dodge/1x shield use since 1 dodge rank has a higher effect on DS then 1 shield use rank. Without the huge penalty to dodge from armor and shield I doubt paladins out DS a bard.

[Fulmen]

I would just like to point out as an adendum that with shields, this is probably not the case given the way sonic shields/armor work with 1x dodge/1x shield use since 1 dodge rank has a higher effect on DS then 1 shield use rank. Without the huge penalty to dodge from armor and shield I doubt paladins out DS a bard.

We could test the numbers. Personally, I'm using a 7x tower shield and I 2x shield. I don't bother with dodge at all with the large shield and heavy armor penalties it takes.

It's not just pure DS that counts, on that count a Wizard or a Sorcerer will win easily, but the amount of damage that can be taken and resisted; in that area, platemail is going to win easily. The weight reduction on sonic armor/shields is very nice, especially with Air Lore, but it's still vulnerable to crushing attacks and everything is lost if the Bard is stunned or incapacitated and misses a renewal.

[Bhuryn]

Where do you hunt currently Fulmen?

[Fulmen]

Where do you hunt currently Fulmen?

The Hidden Plateau when I'm around the Landing: lesser minotaurs, yetis, and krag dwellers. Very easy, especially if you take the time to slow them and stance dance. I used to hunt the Stronghold, but I don't do that unless I have a task now; it takes too long to fry there. If I'm in the Nations, Temple Wyneb is a cake walk. Storm griffins on the Keen out there are the ones that usually get me with lightning-attuned major e-waves.

The things that usually killed me in the Stronghold were either a major e-wave from a Shaman when I was lying down, or a Stone Fist that critted my neck (even with heavy crit padding on plate). And sometimes having one of the buggers fall on my neck. Training PT up towards 2x and overcoming the level disadvantage stopped the crits on Stone Fist pretty well. For a while there, I uphunted a good ten levels in the Stronghold.

I've seen you around the Stronghold using a morning-star before.

[Bhuryn]

The Hidden Plateau when I'm around the Landing: lesser minotaurs, yetis, and krag dwellers. Very easy, especially if you take the time to slow them and stance dance. I used to hunt the Stronghold, but I don't do that unless I have a task now; it takes too long to fry there. If I'm in the Nations, Temple Wyneb is a cake walk. Storm griffins on the Keen out there are the ones that usually get me with lightning-attuned major e-waves.

The things that usually killed me in the Stronghold were either a major e-wave from a Shaman when I was lying down, or a Stone Fist that critted my neck (even with heavy crit padding on plate). And sometimes having one of the buggers fall on my neck. Training PT up towards 2x and overcoming the level disadvantage stopped the crits on Stone Fist pretty well. For a while there, I uphunted a good ten levels in the Stronghold.

I've seen you around the Stronghold using a morning-star before.

Yeah I switched to back to a maul. It took me a month to remember why I've fixskills away from shields countless times before.

[StrayRogue]

I wouldn't feel too singled out about that. He is right, though, that working MIU/Arcane Symbols into one's training plan shouldn't be seen as a strength of a profession unless they have the means to do so more easily than is the norm.

Correct. Saying "I have awesome CC because I've worked MIU into my build" is akin to me saying "I've got awesome healing prowess on my rogue because I have a pocket healer". No, it's not an inherent benefit of the class. You're still relying on someone else to get by.

[Fulmen]

Correct. Saying "I have awesome CC because I've worked MIU into my build" is akin to me saying "I've got awesome healing prowess on my rogue because I have a pocket healer". No, it's not an inherent benefit of the class. You're still relying on someone else to get by.

I wasn't relying on EWave and Call Wind for standard CC; it's just a nice bonus if you want to lay out a swarm or knock off a cloud. In warcamps, particularly. Most of the time I just mstrike a crowd of creatures and that takes care of it. At the moment I have 60 ranks of MOC for a five critter open swing. I'll cap it off at 100 for six critters when I cap, since Paladins can only single train.

If you use Aura of the Arkati, Sigil of Distraction, and Sigil of Intimidation (which don't usually hit everything), and then lay out a triple open mstrike, almost everything in a room dies. Rejuvenation brings back stamina well enough that using Sigils and multiple mstrikes as a basic hunting tactic is not much of a problem, even without stamina regen (I'm at +16 on that if I wear everything, but I usually go with +8).

I don't see why a Paladin needs a mass knockdown spell for hunting. Very little can threaten me while they're standing up.

[Bhuryn]

I wasn't relying on EWave and Call Wind for standard CC; it's just a nice bonus if you want to lay out a swarm or knock off a cloud. In warcamps, particularly. Most of the time I just mstrike a crowd of creatures and that takes care of it. At the moment I have 60 ranks of MOC for a five critter open swing. I'll cap it off at 100 for six critters when I cap, since Paladins can only single train.

If you use Aura of the Arkati, Sigil of Distraction, and Sigil of Intimidation (which don't usually hit everything), and then lay out a triple open mstrike, almost everything in a room dies. Rejuvenation brings back stamina well enough that using Sigils and multiple mstrikes as a basic hunting tactic is not much of a problem, even without stamina regen (I'm at +16 on that if I wear everything, but I usually go with +8).

I don't see why a Paladin needs a mass knockdown spell for hunting. Very little can threaten me while they're standing up.

Pray tell, what do you with minotaurs since you can't feint them?

I'll answer for you since we're the same level. You let them swing and if they by chance charge you, you die just like me.

I'm sure you die just like I do to manuvers when you have multiple mobs in the room. It's a difference of what you're willing to accept I guess. Other classes have a means to prevent those deaths that paladins don't have outside buring a huge chunk of our mana on judgement that might buy you enogh time for a single mstrike.


Most of the time I just mstrike a crowd of creatures and that takes care of it. ... and then lay out a triple open mstrike, almost everything in a room dies

I'm gonna call BS on this. This is exactly the reason why I switched FROM a morning star to mauls. I'd mstrike (I have 55 ranks) and half the time it would fail to cause a substantial wound (leg, , stuns, etc.). Half the time I'd burn all of my stamina (~130) on mstrike and still manage to only kill one or two.

[StrayRogue]

I'd also like to know what happens after that big mstrike when 3 mobs run into the room whilst you're in RT.

[Bhuryn]

I'd also like to know what happens after that big mstrike when 3 mobs run into the room whilst you're in RT.

Of course, that can apply to all classes so it's really not a paladin specific problem.

[Fallen]

I think hurling is an interesting secondary skill for Paladins to pick up towards the cap. If you can get a returner or a bandolier (or risk hurling your bonded weapon), you can really do some damage. 1605 was changed to add DF to thrown, which is awesome, and you guys know you can generate the AS to make the weapon viable.

Debia isn't quite back to hurling yet as she wanted 2x lores and 1x spells, but I imagine once she does she will wreck everything in OTF quite handedly. Not that she doesn't now, but waiting for a Griffin to attack gets old.

[Bhuryn]

It's not even CLOSE to viable pre-cap so it's really not a solution. That and the fact that hurling returners and bandoliers aren't exactly readily available. I'm not sure, but I don't think hurling a bonded weapon triggers the return effect. I'd have to test that.

[Fulmen]

I'd also like to know what happens after that big mstrike when 3 mobs run into the room whilst you're in RT.

Not Paladin specific, as Bhuryn said, but in this case you wait it out. Platemail, heavy crit padding, and heavy damage padding through Sigil of Minor Protection is useful that way.

[TheLastShamurai]

I'm not sure, but I don't think hurling a bonded weapon triggers the return effect. I'd have to test that.

It does.

[Fulmen]

It's not even CLOSE to viable pre-cap so it's really not a solution. That and the fact that hurling returners and bandoliers aren't exactly readily available. I'm not sure, but I don't think hurling a bonded weapon triggers the return effect. I'd have to test that.

It does trigger it, but it's not immediate. The weapon returns on the round. I hurl my mace at things for entertainment now and then.

[Fallen]

Not Paladin specific, as Bhuryn said, but in this case you wait it out. Platemail, heavy crit padding, and heavy damage padding through Sigil of Minor Protection is useful that way.

Two problems with that, though. Most things towards the cap aren't dangerous because they swing. They are dangerous because they maneuver/Stack RT, or cast. Both Paladins don't do all that swimmingly against. Sure, Beseech is nice, but that's only if you're NOT in RT, and still alive after the first hit.

[Fulmen]

Pray tell, what do you with minotaurs since you can't feint them?


I've never had a lesser minotaur kill me. Krag Dwellers have before, when they got a 20 second rt rolling attack on me and I was too low a level to have been hunting them in the first place.

I haven't tried the Labyrinth, but lesser minotaurs simply warcry and mstrike me and end up doing minor wounds if they hit. If they try to gore me, it usually misses or does a minor.

I'll go play with minotaurs and post the results.

[Fallen]

It's not even CLOSE to viable pre-cap so it's really not a solution. That and the fact that hurling returners and bandoliers aren't exactly readily available. I'm not sure, but I don't think hurling a bonded weapon triggers the return effect. I'd have to test that.

I think it is a give and take situation, though I will admit semi's are strapped for points pre-cap. You could back off of lores, or off of MIU/Arcane symbols to make up for points. Post cap, though, regardless of whether they are a Bard/Ranger/Paladin, it is a semi's game. You can become a master of everything, dabbler in none.

[Fulmen]

[Hidden Plateau]
A ruined stone walkway traverses the base of the steep mountainside, running from north to south. Struggling grasses and shattered marble ruins dot the terrain along the path, and a large weathered stone rests near a fork in the path. You also see a krag dweller.
Obvious paths: north, south, southwest
>
A krag yeti rumbles in!
>slow dwel
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a krag dweller.
CS: +303 - TD: +237 + CvA: +25 + d100: +2 == +93
Warded off!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>posture defensive
Cast Round Time in effect: You move into a guarded stance, ready to protect yourself.
>slow yet
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a krag yeti.
CS: +303 - TD: +230 + CvA: +25 + d100: +20 == +118
Warding failed!
A krag yeti appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A krag dweller pounds at you with its fist!
With no room to spare, you block the attack with your rolaren tower shield!
>slow dwell
Wait 1 sec.
>
You don't have a spell prepared!
>slow dwell
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a krag dweller.
[Spell Hindrance for some etched vultite platemail is 17% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 11]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
You skillfully interpose your shield between yourself and the attack!
>slow dwell
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a krag dweller.
CS: +303 - TD: +237 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +169
Warding failed!
A krag dweller appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>posture offensive
You move into an offensive stance, ready for battle.
>m dwel
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +425 vs DS: +207 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +61 = +300
... and hit for 50 points of damage!
Large gash to the right arm, several muscles torn.
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +425 vs DS: +207 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +62 = +301
... and hit for 57 points of damage!
You ripped a chunk out of the krag dweller's right leg with that one.
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +425 vs DS: +187 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +16 = +275
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Smash to the kneecap.

** Your mithril-flanged mace pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 5 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the krag dweller's stomach leaving painful red streaks.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
>
A krag yeti swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +373 vs DS: +353 with AvD: -17 + d100 roll: +90 = +93
A clean miss.
>
The krag dweller's eyes sparkle with evil intent as it collapses into a boulder-shaped ball and begins rolling erratically across the ground!
With great poise and balance, you leap at just the right moment to dodge the boulder as it careens recklessly by!
The boulder comes to a sudden stop and rises into the form of a krag dweller!
>surge
...wait 1 seconds.
>surge
Surge of Strength (surge) starts for 1m 30s. [+10Str]
You focus deep within yourself, searching for untapped sources of strength.
You feel significantly stronger.
>kill
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +435 vs DS: +165 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +99 = +390
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Large gash to the left arm, several muscles torn.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
A lesser minotaur stomps in, squinting warily.
>slow mino
...wait 2 seconds.
...wait 2 seconds.
>slow mino
...wait 1 seconds.
...wait 1 seconds.
>slow mino
...wait 1 seconds.
...wait 1 seconds.
>slow mino
>
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
CS: +303 - TD: +222 + CvA: +8 + d100: +15 == +104
Warding failed!
A lesser minotaur appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
AS: +363 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +15 = +62
A clean miss.
>
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a lesser minotaur engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +28 = +88
A clean miss.

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +53 = +113
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Flashy swing!
You're lucky that it only bopped your nose.

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +46 = +106
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Blow glances off your shoulder.

>kill yet
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +287 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +86 = +266
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Right hand mangled horribly.
The krag yeti is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
You feel recovered from your whirlwind flurry of strikes.
>
A krag dweller pounds at you with its fist!
AS: +374 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +32 = +90
A clean miss.
>kill
...wait 1 seconds.
>kill
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +267 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +24 = +224
... and hit for 63 points of damage!
Spinal cord damaged by smash to the back.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
Your heightened awareness of your own defensive weaknesses fades away.
>
Your heightened awareness of your foes fades away.
>sigil of major bane
A lesser minotaur stomps in, squinting warily.
>
As you concentrate on your sigil, you become much more aware of your foes and the most vulnerable portions of their bodies.
>sigil of minor protection
As you concentrate on your sigil, you become slightly more aware of weak spots in your defenses.
>slow min
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Pious Trial...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
CS: +303 - TD: +219 + CvA: +8 + d100: +71 == +163
Warding failed!
A lesser minotaur appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at a krag dweller!
AS: +376 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +21 = +272
... and hits for 62 points of damage!
Internal organs bruised.
>aura
Wait 1 sec.
>
You don't have a spell prepared!
>aura
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Aura of the Arkati...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture.
[Spell Hindrance for some etched vultite platemail is 17% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 3]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>aura
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Aura of the Arkati...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture.
Calling upon your patron to aid your cause, a brilliant aura begins to radiate from you!
CS: +303 - TD: +219 + CvA: +8 + d100: +71 == +163
Warding failed!
The lesser minotaur is rebuked before you, visibly struggling against your radiant aura!
CS: +303 - TD: +222 + CvA: +8 + d100: +78 == +167
Warding failed!
The lesser minotaur is rebuked before you, visibly struggling against your radiant aura!
CS: +303 - TD: +230 + CvA: +25 + d100: +45 == +143
Warding failed!
The krag yeti is rebuked before you, visibly struggling against your radiant aura!
A krag yeti seems to speed back up for just a moment, but then begins moving even slower!
CS: +303 - TD: +237 + CvA: +25 + d100: +64 == +155
Warding failed!
The krag dweller is rebuked before you, visibly struggling against your radiant aura!
A krag dweller seems to speed back up for just a moment, but then begins moving even slower!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a lesser minotaur engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +375 vs DS: +354 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +91 = +150
... and hits for 4 points of damage!
Quick slash to your upper left arm!
Just a nick.

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +375 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +68 = +131
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Quick slash at your left eye.
Strike lands but misses the target.

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +375 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +53 = +116
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Glancing blow to your right leg!

>
A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
AS: +353 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +82 = +123
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Hit glances off your hip.
>
A krag dweller pounds at you with its fist!
AS: +374 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +58 = +120
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Blow glances off your shoulder.
>m
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +435 vs DS: +243 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +93 = +317
... and hit for 93 points of damage!
Tremendous blow crushes skull like a ripe melon.
[You have earned 80 prestige points.]
A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the ground.
A lesser minotaur appears less distracted and conflicted.
A lesser minotaur recovers from being rebuked, regaining his composure.
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +435 vs DS: +250 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +4 = +221
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Respectable shot to the back.
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +270 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +28 = +225
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Whoosh! Several ribs driven into lungs.
The krag yeti is stunned!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
The krag dweller barely dodges the attack!

Your flurry of strikes leaves you off-balance and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
>loot
...wait 2 seconds.
>loot
You search the lesser minotaur.
You discard the minotaur's useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing else of value.
The strong stench of bovine sweat is all that remains as a lesser minotaur's body decays away.
>
Gardeth's group just arrived.
>
Gardeth's group just went north.
>feint
[Roll result: 105 (open d100: 34) Bonus: 9]
You feint to the right, the krag dweller buys the ruse and moves to block the blow that never came!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>feint min
[Roll result: 16 (open d100: 33) Bonus: 9]
You feint to the left, but the lesser minotaur isn't fooled for a second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
With no room to spare, you block the attack with your rolaren tower shield!
>
You feel recovered from your whirlwind flurry of strikes.
>m min
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +435 vs DS: +250 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +55 = +272
... and hit for 96 points of damage!
Blow to stomach rearranges some organs!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +435 vs DS: +220 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +89 = +336
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Weapon arm removed at the shoulder!
The minotaur's silvery white greataxe falls to the ground.

** Your mithril-flanged mace pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 10 points of damage!
Insignificant burns to the lesser minotaur's neck.
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +435 vs DS: +192 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +80 = +355
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Shield arm mangled horribly.
[You have earned 85 prestige points.]
A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the ground.
A lesser minotaur appears less distracted and conflicted.
A lesser minotaur recovers from being rebuked, regaining his composure.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
>
A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
AS: +353 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +32 = +73
A clean miss.
>
A krag dweller pounds at you with its fist!
AS: +374 vs DS: +350 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +79 = +141
... and hits for 3 points of damage!
Blow glances off your shoulder.
>loot
...wait 1 seconds.
>loot
You search the lesser minotaur.
You discard the minotaur's useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing else of value.
The strong stench of bovine sweat is all that remains as a lesser minotaur's body decays away.
>m yet
You are still a bit winded from your last flurry of attacks, but you focus to push the strain in your muscles from your mind.
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +284 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +47 = +230
... and hit for 65 points of damage!
Left leg ripped from socket at the knee!
A krag yeti collapses to the ground and grasps its mangled left leg!

The krag yeti is stunned!

** Your mithril-flanged mace pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 25 points of damage!
Muscle and blood explode from the krag yeti's abdomen in a steaming spray!

** Your mithril-flanged mace pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 10 points of damage!
Burst of brilliant energy to head stuns the krag yeti for an instant.
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +146 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +50 = +371
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Blow ruptures the stomach!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag yeti!
AS: +435 vs DS: +139 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +19 = +347
... and hit for 86 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters shield arm.
[You have earned 65 prestige points.]
The krag yeti shudders once before it finally goes still.
A krag yeti recovers from being rebuked, regaining its composure.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
>loot
...wait 1 seconds.
>loot
You search the krag yeti.
It didn't carry any silver.
It had a black tourmaline on it!
It had nothing else of value.
Hair and teeth wilt inward until nothing remains of the krag yeti but dust.
>kill dwell
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +435 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +16 = +315
... and hit for 55 points of damage!
Smash to the kneecap.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>l
[Hidden Plateau]
A ruined stone walkway traverses the base of the steep mountainside, running from north to south. Struggling grasses and shattered marble ruins dot the terrain along the path, and a large weathered stone rests near a fork in the path. You also see a black tourmaline, a curved silvery white greataxe, the Fulmen disk and a krag dweller.
Obvious paths: north, south, southwest
>kill dweller
>
A krag dweller pounds at you with its fist!
With no room to spare, you manage to parry the blow with your mithril-flanged mace!
>
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a krag dweller!
AS: +435 vs DS: +169 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +51 = +338
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Left elbow smashed into a thousand pieces.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
Your heightened awareness of your own defensive weaknesses fades away.
>
Your heightened awareness of your foes fades away.
>sigil of major bane
>sigil of minor protection
As you concentrate on your sigil, you become much more aware of your foes and the most vulnerable portions of their bodies.
>
As you concentrate on your sigil, you become slightly more aware of weak spots in your defenses.
>
[You have earned 75 prestige points.]
The krag dweller crumbles into a pile of rubble.
A krag dweller recovers from being rebuked, regaining its composure.
>
You feel recovered from your whirlwind flurry of strikes.
>kill
You currently have no valid target. You will need to specify one.
>loot
You search the krag dweller.
It had nothing of interest.
The krag dweller crumbles away into dust.
>posture defensive
You move into a defensive stance, ready to fend off an attack.

[Fulmen]

A lesser minotaur stomps in, squinting warily.
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
You skillfully block the attack with your shield!
>
A lesser minotaur belts out a guttural battle cry as he raises his silvery white greataxe high above his head!
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a lesser minotaur engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
You skillfully block the attack with your shield!

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +441 vs DS: +552 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +15 = -58
A clean miss.

A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
With no room to spare, you block the attack with your rolaren tower shield!

>
The shimmering aura fades from around you.
>
The faint blue glow fades from around your hands.
>sigil of offense
A faint blue glow surrounds your hands, subtly guiding your movements.
>sigil of defense
>
A shimmering aura surrounds you.
>feint
[Roll result: -35 (open d100: 42) Bonus: 9]
You feint high, but the lesser minotaur isn't fooled for a second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +552 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +87 = -51
A clean miss.
>stance o
You are now in an offensive stance.
>feint
[Roll result: -7 (open d100: 10) Bonus: 9]
You feint low, but the lesser minotaur isn't fooled for a second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>ds min
...wait 1 seconds.
...wait 1 seconds.
>ds min
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
A pillar of reddish-orange radiance manifests around a lesser minotaur.
CS: +303 - TD: +222 + CvA: +8 + d100: +21 == +110
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the lesser minotaur's body!
... 20 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Strike to the lesser minotaur's left arm sprains biceps.
The lesser minotaur is driven to his knees!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>m min
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a perfect mithril-flanged mace at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +425 vs DS: +213 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +71 = +315
... and hit for 73 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The lesser minotaur twitches several times before dying.
[You have earned 85 prestige points.]
A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the ground.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Fulmen]

No need for feint. Divine Strike works on the minotaurs. I don't see the problem.

[Bhuryn]

I've never had a lesser minotaur kill me. Krag Dwellers have before, when they got a 20 second rt rolling attack on me and I was too low a level to have been hunting them in the first place.

I haven't tried the Labyrinth, but lesser minotaurs simply warcry and mstrike me and end up doing minor wounds if they hit. If they try to gore me, it usually misses or does a minor.

I'll go play with minotaurs and post the results.

I didn't see them attempt to gore you in that log. If I missed it point it out for me.

[Bhuryn]

No need for feint. Divine Strike works on the minotaurs. I don't see the problem.

they spawn in defensive.

[StrayRogue]

Of course, that can apply to all classes so it's really not a paladin specific problem.

Pures do not have this concern.

[Fulmen]

Stacking RT is what usually gets me in a warcamp, but what class defends well against that? Paladins can train up CMAN to help resist a lot of the CMAN RT attacks, even if not as well squares.

I don't think a Paladin, or any class, is supposed to be invulnerable. Where'd be the fun in that? We do pretty well against whatever is thrown at us, and as a Dwarf I have a +30 versus Elemental TD that helps immensely when all my TD defense spells are in the spirit sphere. +15 versus Sorcerer spells.

[Bhuryn]

Stacking RT is what usually gets me in a warcamp, but what class defends well against that? Paladins can train up CMAN to help resist a lot of the CMAN RT attacks, even if not as well squares.

I don't think a Paladin, or any class, is supposed to be invulnerable. Where'd be the fun in that? We do pretty well against whatever is thrown at us, and as a Dwarf I have a +30 versus Elemental TD that helps immensely when all my TD defense spells are in the spirit sphere. +15 versus Sorcerer spells.

Classes that with decent CC?

[Fulmen]

Classes ... with decent CC?

If Paladins had a mass knockdown spell of their own, or a mass bind at like level, or anything else (I'm not counting 135 as particularly useful for warding like level critters in this), we would be effectively invulnerable. It would be unbalanced. Judgment and Aura do well enough.

I like it when the creatures can hit me a bit. Otherwise it would be very boring.

[Fulmen]

I'd also like to know what happens after that big mstrike when 3 mobs run into the room whilst you're in RT.

It's only 8 secs for a mace. 9 for a morning-star. Nothing big really.

[mgoddess]

People probably don't want my very biased opinion about paladins...

However, I seriously don't give a shit, I'm going to give it anyways.

The only thing that I dislike about paladins is the lack of development. Everything else, I seriously love. My paladin is the character I play the most, she is a blast to hunt with (I can handle three to four creatures at a time, no problem), and she can offer spells and rescues to people who need them (which, as a warrior, she couldn't).

Her skills, at 60:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Shield Use.........................| 222 122
Combat Maneuvers...................| 162 62 (base: 60)
Edged Weapons......................| 222 122
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 160 60
Physical Fitness...................| 163 63 (base: 60)
Dodging............................| 160 60
Harness Power......................| 160 60
Survival...........................| 160 60
Perception.........................| 161 61 (base: 60)
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30
First Aid..........................| 163 63 (base: 60)

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 35

No, she isn't in plate yet. I haven't had any problems with 6x chain hauberk.
No, she isn't fully 1x in spells. I haven't had too much use for 130 or 1640 yet.
No, she doesn't have lores yet. As has been mentioned previously, TP's can be hard to come by with any semi: she's just as much of a victim to this as any other semi is. (And no, I won't untrain the perception, first aid, or survival... all three are a part of her RP.)

I seriously don't understand why people are so damn butt-hurt about paladins, besides the lack of dev. Really. Paladins are a damn fun class to play, assuming it's your thing. If you don't like them, go play another class.

[Bhuryn]

Where are you hunting mgodess? I loved my paladin through the 50s to.

[Fulmen]

I love mine at 67, and I plan to keep lovin' it. I don't think levels make a difference. Things in GS tend to get better with age.

[mgoddess]

Where are you hunting mgodess? I loved my paladin through the 50s to.
Right now I'm hunting MTK's and Harbinger's in Darkstone. It's good times. Only thing that has a chance of getting me are MTK's when they froth... and even then, 'dux and armor win. (Though, it'd be worse if I didn't have wizard and ranger spells on, I suppose. DS in offensive is ~370, DS in defensive is mid-500's, with them both.)

A massive troll king flesh wounds regenerate some.
The troll king's abdomen regenerates and looks much better.
A massive troll king pounds at you with its fist!
AS: +490 vs DS: +370 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +83 = +241
... and hits for 36 points of damage!
Bones in left arm crack.

A massive troll king claws at you!
AS: +517 vs DS: +368 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +76 = +244
... and hits for 22 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the chest.

[Stanley Burrell]

Pro = They aren't Warriors.

Con = They aren't Empaths/Sorcerers

Think that just about covers it. You're welcome.

[Bhuryn]

I love mine at 67, and I plan to keep lovin' it. I don't think levels make a difference. Things in GS tend to get better with age.

Well I asked because everyone that tends to love their paladin at or below MTKs/harbs. I take my level 34 wizard with me to MTKs if I get a task there because they're a joke. Honestly you're really the first paladin I've heard of over ~60 that doesn't have a problem with the paladin design.

[Durgrimst]

Well I asked because everyone that tends to love their paladin at or below MTKs/harbs. I take my level 34 wizard with me to MTKs if I get a task there because they're a joke. Honestly you're really the first paladin I've heard of over ~60 that doesn't have a problem with the paladin design.

My pali is post cap, and he is pretty much a badass.

[Bhuryn]

My pali is post cap, and he is pretty much a badass.

What exactly makes him so badass?

[Durgrimst]

His AS with a claid is 621, and he gets a 16% DF increase, and there isn't much that spawns high enough to ward him in the temple.

And that is just self+mage spells, no scrolls or nifty items.

[Fallen]

Once a paladin can start to max out lores and spells they become pretty insane.

[Back]

The reason I asked for your skills is to see why you thought level 40 was such a good place to diversify. By your training, I can see that you're lacking in areas that most Paladins don't.

It doesn't changed the fact I think you have much to learn about Paladins as a whole. I have not, however, said Paladins suck. I've said they could be improved, and that prior to Mestys post, dev absent.

Ok, instead of being Mr. I Know Everything About Paladins And You Don’t So I Laugh At You why don’t you share with everyone what you know and specifically whats wrong, or lacking, in my training plan? Whats your glorious training path?

I was looking over Guiding Light and it seems like a useless slot when you get to Sanctify... There is some redundancy in the paladin circle and I do like what Fallen posted before about paladins making armor and shields reactive. Thats a good idea.

[CaptContagious]

Bhuryn, seriously...

...if by now you can't figure out how to play a paladin and make it work...
...give up and play a sorcerer.


oh and did anyone know that AA works on people hiding in the shadows? found that out dueling a ranger.

[thefarmer]

Ok, instead of being Mr. I Know Everything About Paladins And You Don’t So I Laugh At You why don’t you share with everyone what you know and specifically whats wrong, or lacking, in my training plan? Whats your glorious training path?.

There's a difference between claiming to know more about the professian than you due to more experience and claiming to know everything about Paladins.

To put it another way, I don't argue with Fallen about sorcerers just because I played one to level 40.

My skills and stats and opinions are scattered throughout the various paladin related threads here and are all over the officials.


Originally Posted by CaptContagious
oh and did anyone know that AA works on people hiding in the shadows? found that out dueling a ranger

All area/room spells work that way.

[Back]

There's a difference between claiming to know more about the professian than you due to more experience and claiming to know everything about Paladins.

To put it another way, I don't argue with Fallen about sorcerers just because I played one to level 40.

My skills and stats and opinions are scattered throughout the various paladin related threads here and are all over the officials.

Great. Love to hear it. Sorry I don’t keep up with every post you’ve ever made. What are your skills right now?

[CaptContagious]

I knew most of them do but i have never had it (AA) work on people in shadows before, guess the person/s must have warded it before.

[Bhuryn]

Bhuryn, seriously...

...if by now you can't figure out how to play a paladin and make it work...
...give up and play a sorcerer.


oh and did anyone know that AA works on people hiding in the shadows? found that out dueling a ranger.

You can waste your time "making it work" I'll waste my time requesting paladins to get a proper shake (while I level a class that doesn't get ignored). I'll wave at you on my way past.

[Fallen]

Now would be the time to post ideas if you have them. Mestys was poking around the Pali folder.

[Bhuryn]

Now would be the time to post ideas if you have them. Mestys was poking around the Pali folder.

Jessaril already posted alot of the ideas we've already talked about. She just forgot to give me credit for mine! =P I refuse to post on the officals to on the grounds that the forum system sucks ass (and I don't think i can =P).

[Maerit]

Flawed logic is flawed. You assume that Rangers and Bards give up nothing to be able to use their mass-disabling spells. They give up the major advantage paladins have, heavy armor and redux. Rangers and Bards CAN have redux, but not close to the level of a Paladin. If you think a Bard is going to e-wave anything reliably in full plate armor, you'd be thinking wrong. Neither class can stand toe-to-toe with a swarm and live without those spells. They don't have Beseech, they don't have immense defensive abilities, and without spell-tanking from outside sources (which the argument is apparently based on "core" abilities only) they don't have the DS either.

It sounds to me like paladins want a path where they can be squishy and casting-oriented like the other two semis. That's cool. Just realize that by going that route you would be expected to sacrifice the same utility that Bards and Ranger have to sacrifice. You'd probably have to give up full plate, down-grade to something like chain hauberk at the max. You'll have to rely MORE on outside spell assistance because your Redux will be crap, and you DS will need to be higher to compensate.

What then? Oh, I know. Rangers and Bards will demand an ability like Divine Intervention. Any why not? Paladins can control crowds, have massive AS, and be immune to any non-RT oriented status effects (web, bind, stun, and CURSE) while being able to mstrike their disabled crowds.

Paladins just have to accept the fact that they are a "Square-Biased" class. Rogues have to spend immense amounts of TP to get crowd control, and Warriors have berserk.... which isn't crowd control. The only reason Berserk works for warriors is because of their durability and that they can stand toe-to-toe with a crowd while in offensive stance.

I just don't see any way they could give Paladins better crowd control options without stripping them of some of that durability. That would unbalancing to the remainder of the classes. Why, if you could CC while wearing full plate and retaining your redux, what would be the point of EVER playing a Warrior from a mechanical perspective? Berserk? It's not better than being self-reliant, having physical AS higher than any other class, access to useful CMANs, perma-blessing a weapon of your chosing, and all the other benefits that come with being a paladin.

I have been tempted continuously to convert to the Paladin class, and that's a really hard choice. If they want to make it easy for me, they can give Paladins better Crowd Control, or open up their access to Berserk. Either one of those will make it obvious which is the better class, and I'd be on the paladin ship in a second. Right now, it's a toss-up. Destroy THAT balance, and both Squares and Rangers/Bards will have major reasons to complain.

You ARE the Physical Semi. Not because you have high AS and wield weapons better, but because you have better physical defense than either Semi. Paladins have more Redux, and more options at their command for defense against most forms of damage. Not to mention, you have crowd control in limited forms early on in the training path, and that is more than any other physical class can boast (rogues/warriors).

[Bhuryn]

I guess 1040 doesn't exist then?

Bards can argually achieve higher AS and DS then paladins. Rangers have WoT. Bards have SoM. Both are very viable defensive measures. Bards and rangers can both achieve a servicable level of redux. Paladins in general lack much of the untility other semis have and it's been sacrificed for physical skills that require the majority of our spell circle to augment to a point that they're on par with the "physical" classes everyone seems to compare us to.

I really think people overvalue full plate as a whole. Yes, it's amazing armor, but not necessarily worth the expense of other things.

And yes, I know there are some paladins out there that at one point tried a casting paladin, our spells aren't ecen channelable last i checked =P.

[Danical]

I guess 1040 doesn't exist then?

lulz!

Wait, are you seriously comparing beseech with 1040?

[Bhuryn]

lulz!

Wait, are you seriously comparing beseech with 1040?

I know 1040 isn't as good as 1635, but it's function is similar.

I'd trade 1635 and 1640 for 1035 and 1040 any day of the week and twice on sunday though =).

[Fallen]

I just don't see any way they could give Paladins better crowd control options without stripping them of some of that durability.

Sure they can. The trick is to A. Make it a high mana cost, or B. Make it a high skill cost, such as massive training in lores. Also, I wouldn't convert to a Paladin unless you're capped. You lose a ton of versitility jumping from a square to a semi without a lot of extra TPs floating around.

[Danical]

I know 1040 isn't as good as 1635, but it's function is similar.

I'd trade 1635 and 1640 for 1035 and 1040 any day of the week and twice on sunday though =).

You can have it!

Even though I have 101 Air Lore, the only time I use 1035 is when I'm doing loresinging for a -3 RT!

Although, Vrael in the rift might change that.

But yes, I see your point and it's a good one. However, 1035 only really because useful when you have an assload of mana and sink a shitload of TPs into Telepathy and Air lore. Which is to say, it's only viable 75+. Bards already have terrible mana problems with their constant renewal cycle.

[Maerit]

True, Fallen. I doubt I would convert, ever presently. But if the Paladin gained some significant mechanical advantages, such as the kind of crowd control being suggested, then a warrior would appear to be a much weaker alternative for gameplay in most settings. The only advantage I'd see mechanically would be training in multiple weapon types and better CMAN access (which is easily dominated by the paladin spell list).


Paladins in general lack much of the untility other semis have and it's been sacrificed for physical skills that require the majority of our spell circle to augment to a point that they're on par with the "physical" classes everyone seems to compare us to.

I don't see this at all. While training plans are tight for Paladins, your physical skillset can match the typical warrior training path. Paladins likely end up in full plate later on, but they mitigate plate armor at early levels with spells, and your AS & DF is significantly higher due to spells in the paladin list. Without outside spells, a Paladin should have close to, if not exactly the same, as a warrior without spells. Warriors have only CMANs to boost their AS, and Paladins have access to the same AS boosting CMANs (minus weapon bonding, which is replaced with sanctify). I just don't see how you sacrifice anything at all to achieve this superior attack strength.

To top it off, you sacrifice nothing at all to achieve FAR superior defensive strength when compared to a square's base skills. Warriors make up for their lack of DS by having access to redux early on, but rely on spells from third parties to reliably hunt in like-level areas.

Defensively, Paladins are superior to Bards and Rangers. They have all the tools necessary to stand in a swarm the same as a Warrior (redux, heavy armor, and higher DS to make up for any variance).

I agree there is room for improvement. For starters, pigeon-holing paladins into sword/board by making Divine Shield a significant advantage for that playstyle is inappropriate. That spell should have a factor to augment Parry or Block (but not both) depending on your weapon of choice. I also believe Paladins should have access to a high level CS boosting ability (similar to 425). Specifically because the intended design of the class was to target .75x spells (as indicated by a Dev on the boards at one point), which greatly reduces their advancement in CS-oriented spells.

Everyone seems to dislike the 1640 concept except for the folks that enjoy access to the spell for potential RP reasons. Mechanically it's flawed, and most players prefer a Clerical ressurection due to chrisms. 1640 would be the perfect spot for a CS boosting spell, short 20-30 minute duration that is refreshable, high mana cost, +25 to paladin and spiritual CS augmented by lores to further complete the concept of the class.

Other than that, lores provide viable crowd control via 1630, and area web is a useful ability to restrict the number of targets that can attack the paladin at one time. If you had some CS booster, you might even be able to use web more reliably on single targets to further thin out the crowd.

I think the crowd control idea should be avoided because it doesn't focus on the true limitations of the class. Being pigeon-holed into using a shield is a limitation, and being unable to rely on your spell circle (CS-wise) at like-level is another limitation.

These two problems seem like easy fixes, and in my opinion would greatly increase paladin options and make their playstyles more diverse and enjoyable.

[Fallen]

Paladins already have a CS booster, Champions Might. I imagine it would be a hard sell to give them another.

[Fallen]

Here is my take on ideas to tweak spells for Paladins. I would be much obliged if someone tossed them up on the officials.
----
Pious Trial (1602) – When this spell in infused into the Paladin’s sanctified weapon, it will persist for multiple activations. The amount of activations will be determined by Spiritual lore: Blessings based on (seed chart).

Faith’s Clarity (1603) – From the spell description it seems sorcerer and empath spells are left off the list of reduced hindrance. As the Sorcerer/Empath circles are just as spiritual in nature as the ranger circle, I believe it should be included in the spell’s abilities. A possible lore tie in would be an added bonus to a Paladin’s attempt to activate scrolls and Magical items with sufficient training in Blessing’s lore.

Purify (1604) – “Furthermore, it can be cast upon weapons that are normally unblessable to make them blessed for one swing or one minute, whichever is expended first.” Is this true? Does this actually apply to weighted and flaring weapons? If not, the ability to make ANY weapon blessed for one swing should be added to the spell.

Guiding Light (1608) – This spell should grant Sanctified armor and armor accessories reactive (defensive) flares. The number of flares would be the same as those provided in the offensive form of the spell.

Higher Vision (1610) – This spell should provide slight maneuver defense to the Paladin by means of a high seed Spiritual Lore: Religion training regimen. If you have a divinely inspire glimpse of the future, you should be better prepared against all forms of physical attacks.

Champion’s Might (1612) – Training in Religion lore would provide the caster a percent chance of a CS boost flare. Based on an obviously high Seed chart, the flare would be the same as the bonus received by the Paladin by the spell’s primary effects.

Divine Vengeance (1613) – Needs serious revision.

Divine Strike (1615) – This spell’s damage should increase with spell training. Not just a higher damage due to a higher end roll, but the overall damage this spell does should continue to rise as the Paladin gains more spells.

Guard of the Meek (1618) – This spell is about guarding the meek. So, when guarding the meek it should work better. DS bonuses should be provided for each person grouped with the Paladin when this spell is in effect. Somewhere around an additional +2 DS per person grouped, capped at 8 people.

Faith’s Shield (1619) – Training in Spiritual Lore: Blessings should give this spell an additional +1 second per (seed rank 1 or 2). The spell’s duration should be capped at 120 seconds.

Aid of the Fallen – (1620) – At 20 ranks of Spiritual Lore: Blessings a Paladin may anchor this spell at any non-specific Deity location which is considered holy ground (Resurrection point). At 50 ranks of Spiritual lore: Blessings a Paladin may anchor this spell to any permanent sanctuary (must be in a locatable area that allows for fogging in/out) in the name of their chosen Deity. An additional mana cost of +10 to send a corpse to a non-specific deity location point, and +20 for a blessed area of the Paladin’s choosing is added to the spell. Further, should a Corpse decay after the use of this spell the Paladin will receive the displeasure of their Patron in the form of a strong spiritual backlash (Damage, loss of spirit, and a spirit recovery penalty), and loss of this spell for 24 hours. (It should also send a screamer to GMs)

[Maerit]

Oh, final point. Even though you dislike the concept of relying on third-party products, like haste/ewave imbeds, consider the fact that other classes don't gain nearly as much benefit from these items.

Does a Bard suddenly gain plate armor defense or Paladin redux via any form of imbeddible and fairly minor TP investement? Nope. But a Paladin can spend 5k, or grab some really cheap imbeds, train 10-15 MIU, and suddenly they have e-wave, call wind, haste, or any other number of imbeddible spells. Discounting the value of imbeddibles, scrolls, and other easily accessible objects is discounting a major advantage to any class. Some classes don't gain as significant an advantage from such items, so it's a major factor to consider in class balance.

[StrayRogue]

Oh, final point. Even though you dislike the concept of relying on third-party products, like haste/ewave imbeds, consider the fact that other classes don't gain nearly as much benefit from these items.

Does a Bard suddenly gain plate armor defense or Paladin redux via any form of imbeddible and fairly minor TP investement? Nope. But a Paladin can spend 5k, or grab some really cheap imbeds, train 10-15 MIU, and suddenly they have e-wave, call wind, haste, or any other number of imbeddible spells. Discounting the value of imbeddibles, scrolls, and other easily accessible objects is discounting a major advantage to any class. Some classes don't gain as significant an advantage from such items, so it's a major factor to consider in class balance.

How does a rogue or a warrior not gain as much from a haste imbed as a paladin?

[Maerit]

Paladins already have a CS booster, Champions Might. I imagine it would be a hard sell to give them another.

Totally forgot about this one! Yes, they need to elminate the restrictions of +25 only, and allow further improvement via lores... in my opinion.

[Maerit]

How does a rogue or a warrior not gain as much from a haste imbed as a paladin?

They absolutely do! You have hit the point on the head exactly. Problem is, most people want to compare Paladins to Bards and Rangers. Does a Bard or a Ranger gain anything from an ewave or call wind imbed? Is haste as valueable to a high level Bard as it would be to a Paladin?

Nope! That's because Paladins are a lot more like squares than pures, and imbeds are so much more useful to them as a class.

[Fallen]

Totally forgot about this one! Yes, they need to elminate the restrictions of +25 only, and allow further improvement via lores... in my opinion.

Lore improvements would go a long ways towards fixing the majority of the Paladin's problems. Increasing the effectiveness of their existing spells via additional lore training would allow for better crowd control, but with a hefty price tag. Younger paladins especially can't afford to dump points into lore, at least without making a lot of sacrifices.

[TheLastShamurai]

Purify (1604) – “Furthermore, it can be cast upon weapons that are normally unblessable to make them blessed for one swing or one minute, whichever is expended first.” Is this true? Does this actually apply to weighted and flaring weapons? If not, the ability to make ANY weapon blessed for one swing should be added to the spell.

I've never tried it on a flaring weapon, but it does work on weighted weapons. Though, it really isn't much of a perk. For one, it only lasts for one swing. And two, you need someone with you than can actually Bless Item.

[Fallen]

I've never tried it on a flaring weapon, but it does work on weighted weapons. Though, it really isn't much of a perk. For one, it only lasts for one swing. And two, you need someone with you than can actually Bless Item.

Scrolls.

[StrayRogue]

They absolutely do! You have hit the point on the head exactly. Problem is, most people want to compare Paladins to Bards and Rangers. Does a Bard or a Ranger gain anything from an ewave or call wind imbed? Is haste as valueable to a high level Bard as it would be to a Paladin?

Nope! That's because Paladins are a lot more like squares than pures, and imbeds are so much more useful to them as a class.

Agreed.

I think their spells reflect this as well. Bards and Rangers have a lot more...fluff, as it were. Maybe you could call it variety in training. Bards can be wholey magical (and rangers to a lesser extent) whereas paladins are more magically buffed warriors.

[TheLastShamurai]

Scrolls.

Right you could use a scroll.

But realistically, what would be the point? You would have to Purify, then Bless Item after each swing of the weapon.

[Fallen]

I was thinking about fighting those crazy demons that needed a 8x+ blessed blade to hit at the time, I think.

[TheLastShamurai]

Defensively, Paladins are superior to Bards and Rangers. They have all the tools necessary to stand in a swarm the same as a Warrior (redux, heavy armor, and higher DS to make up for any variance).

I guess that depends on how you define defense. Bards and Rangers are capable of producing far more raw DS than a Paladin.

The trade off being, I suppose, that they don't wear plate and have as much redux.

[BriarFox]

Right you could use a scroll.

But realistically, what would be the point? You would have to Purify, then Bless Item after each swing of the weapon.

Why do you need someone to bless it? I just have my paladin cast Purify on his claidhmore once per attack, if he needs to kill something undead with it.

[TheLastShamurai]

Why do you need someone to bless it? I just have my paladin cast Purify on his claidhmore once per attack, if he needs to kill something undead with it.

Hmmmm, that's weird. For some reason I was remembering having to have someone bless it after I purified it. I guess my memory is failing me, but to be fair it's been a long, long time. :).

[TheLastShamurai]

Divine Strike (1615) – This spell’s damage should increase with spell training. Not just a higher damage due to a higher end roll, but the overall damage this spell does should continue to rise as the Paladin gains more spells.

I've always wondered what would happen if we could apply 1605 to 1615/1630.

[Bhuryn]

1604 will bless a weapon for one swing.

I'd love if they removed the CS cap from 1612 (and allowed are spells to be channeled and reduced the spell training costs to 0/22 =), it'd open a new trianing path possibility). Judgement would better service is purpose if the warding margin was higher. I still think they need to enforce a hard round time when it successfully kneels them so people with unbalance crits and such don't get penalized for knockdowns.

[Danical]

Guard of the Meek (1618) – This spell is about guarding the meek. So, when guarding the meek it should work better. DS bonuses should be provided for each person grouped with the Paladin when this spell is in effect. Somewhere around an additional +2 DS per person grouped, capped at 8 people.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

I'd rather see Guard the meek have an affect as follows. If a paladin engages, in any way, a creature and the creature attacks a grouped party member under the effects of Guard the Meek instead of the paladin, the creature suffers immediate retribution in the form of a plasma flare with a chance for double flare (a la guiding light) BEFORE the creature's attack resolves.

For those of you that have played DnD4e, this will look very familiar.

EDIT: This could also work for 1613.

[Danical]

1604 will bless a weapon for one swing.

I'd love if they removed the CS cap from 1612 (and allowed are spells to be channeled and reduced the spell training costs to 0/22 =), it'd open a new trianing path possibility). Judgement would better service is purpose if the warding margin was higher. I still think they need to enforce a hard round time when it successfully kneels them so people with unbalance crits and such don't get penalized for knockdowns.

I've talked to a few paladin players about this. When I get hit by Divine Strike from a Triton Radical and it kneels me, it will always force 10 seconds of RT. If it doesn't kneel me, I don't get the RT.

I'd be more than willing to have a paladin with fire/cold/lit crits use it on me since I have 75%ish rez to those elements. PM or IM me if you want to research it (assuming it works the same for players as creatures).

[Bhuryn]

I think I actually saw you post that on the forums once. I've had critters immediatly shake a stun and stand right after judgement blew off a leg, etc.

[TheLastShamurai]

I think I actually saw you post that on the forums once. I've had critters immediatly shake a stun and stand right after judgement blew off a leg, etc.

When you make them kneel, they will suffer RT. But crit knockdowns aren't taken into account for this, so if you knock them down they do not suffer RT.

[Bhuryn]

When you make them kneel, they will suffer RT. But crit knockdowns aren't taken into account for this, so if you knock them down they do not suffer RT.

I'll have to watch more closely. I could have swarn I've had them stand on me even if they kneel. I guess I can check that off my list =).

[Danical]

It's a bug that absolutely needs to be fixed. Imparting RT on a creature is king.

[Rathain]

Higher Vision (1610) – This spell should provide slight maneuver defense to the Paladin by means of a high seed Spiritual Lore: Religion training regimen. If you have a divinely inspire glimpse of the future, you should be better prepared against all forms of physical attacks.


Doesn't Dauntless provide the same measure of maneuver defense as Heroism? I remember Estild saying as much at one point. Having two maneuver defense spells isn't unprecedented though - Bards have Luck Song and Song of Valor (the latter of which provides minor defense against griffin screeches and sheer fear).

[Bhuryn]

I wouldn't mind seeing the follow text disappear from 1611:

"The total Combat Maneuver bonus received between Patron's Blessing and the Paladin's actual Combat Maneuvers training can not surpass what the paladin would receive were they to be fully trained in Combat Maneuvers. The AS bonus, however, is uncapped."

[StrayRogue]

That would make them better than warriors and rogues at CMan attacks. No thanks.

[StrayRogue]

This doesn't make any sense at all.

I'd rather see Guard the meek have an affect as follows. If a paladin engages, in any way, a creature and the creature attacks a grouped party member under the effects of Guard the Meek instead of the paladin, the creature suffers immediate retribution in the form of a plasma flare with a chance for double flare (a la guiding light) BEFORE the creature's attack resolves.

For those of you that have played DnD4e, this will look very familiar.

EDIT: This could also work for 1613.

Way over powered imo.

[Bhuryn]

That would make them better than warriors and rogues at CMan attacks. No thanks.

We're also far more limited in what CMANs we can have as well as how many we can train due to increased CMAN costs.

[StrayRogue]

Which is as it should be.

[thefarmer]

Defensively, Paladins are superior to Bards and Rangers. They have all the tools necessary to stand in a swarm the same as a Warrior (redux, heavy armor, and higher DS to make up for any variance).

A little late.. but Bards and Rangers don't stand in swarms. They can take out the room. In augmented chainmail. With semi-dux. If that's not considered a good defense, then I don't know what is.

[Donquix]

A little late.. but Bards and Rangers don't stand in swarms. They can take out the room. In augmented chainmail. With semi-dux. If that's not considered a good defense, then I don't know what is.

"Dead targets generate 0 dps."

[Maerit]

A little late.. but Bards and Rangers don't stand in swarms. They can take out the room. In augmented chainmail. With semi-dux. If that's not considered a good defense, then I don't know what is.

Uhh, that's out of context of the whole discussion from my post, but all good.

Yes, Rangers and Bards can "take out the room", but that is not "good defense". In fact, it's completely the opposite, which demonstrates the point. The fact that they can "take out the room" is because they have a powerful --offense--. Which happens to be the other side of the coin.

Paladins have powerful defense, Rangers and Bards have powerful offense. They use their tools differently. A Paladin is designed to wade through foes, take them out one, two, maybe three at a time, but be capable to surviving the attack of a swarm. Bards and Rangers are designed to strike first, and not risk taking the attacks due to their high offensive powers. So no, I would not consider the ability to take out the entire room a good defense. It's a strong offense, and you can't give every class the best of both worlds.

In the world of tactics, one might claim a good offense is better than a good defense, but in the world of game mechanics the balance is very delicate. And if you go onto the spell description page and look up these mass spells, you'll notice they are clearly labled "offense".

If Paladins want a powerful offensive disabling spell that takes out an entire room, then to re-balance the class, they would have to sacrifice their significant defensive prowress.

I think the question to ask folks pushing for such a change is... are you sure you rolled the right class? Everyone wants to blow stuff up as effeciently as possible, but not every class can be designed that way. So, in the context of my post, for a "Square-Biased" class, the idea of them being able to take out an entire room by using spells seems a little out of the class description.

[Back]

Swarm DS pushdown is a problem when you solo. Surviving a swarm is not an issue. Taking out a swarm solo is. Even at like or under level let alone up level.

It may be asking too much for paladins to get a CC that wipes a swarm when uphunting solo.

[mgoddess]

Swarm DS pushdown is a problem when you solo. Surviving a swarm is not an issue. Taking out a swarm solo is. Even at like or under level let alone up level.

It may be asking too much for paladins to get a CC that wipes a swarm when uphunting solo.
That's what MoC is for:

"The amount of Multi-Opponent Combat training required to fully offset another attacker has been adjusted to come at ranks 10, 25, 45, and every 25 ranks thereafter. (10, 25, 45, 70, 95, 120, 145, 170, 195)

Every rank of MOC counts towards reducing the defensive reduction for multiple attackers, rather than increasing in steps at specific rank thresholds. For example, if a character has 5 ranks of MOC and 10 are required to fully offset the first additional attacker, this character will only lose half of the defensive reduction that would normally apply when facing two attackers."

[Maerit]

Swarm DS pushdown is a problem when you solo. Surviving a swarm is not an issue. Taking out a swarm solo is. Even at like or under level let alone up level.

It may be asking too much for paladins to get a CC that wipes a swarm when uphunting solo.

Ok, is it harder for a paladin to take out a swarm than it would be for a warrior?

Warriors have two tools for swarms. Multi-Opponent Combat and Berserk.

Let me show you the training costs for MOC:

Warrior: 4/3
Paladin: 5/2
Bard: 7/3
Ranger: 10/4
Rogue: 10/3

This is off of Krakii's site. So, my question here. Paladins have the 2nd lowest TP cost for training MOC. It seems apparent that the devs decided to give Paladins access to the same tools that Warriors have when handling multiple opponents. You don't have Berserk, but that's ok. You get 1614 and 1630. You might not think those spells are so great, but considering that you can train MOC to handle DS pushdown, wear full plate armor, have significantly more DS due to your own spells, and affect multiple targets with spells -- you might be able to fight a swarm just about as well as a warrior.

Can you kill them as fast as a Bard or a Ranger? Nah. But, if the Bard or Ranger didn't have those mass-effect spells, how long do you think they'd be able to stand in the fray. Half as long as a Paladins? A tenth of the time? Would they be able to escape if they got in trouble?

There are a lot of great suggestions floating around that address core issues with the class. This one concept that Paladins "need" some form of mass disabler to handle like-level swarms seems to be a fallacy. I play a warrior most of my time, and I don't need a fancy mass-disabler to handle swarms. All I need is time and tactics.

[mgoddess]

Ok, is it harder for a paladin to take out a swarm than it would be for a warrior?

Warriors have two tools for swarms. Multi-Opponent Combat and Berserk.

Let me show you the training costs for MOC:

Warrior: 4/3
Paladin: 5/2
Bard: 7/3
Ranger: 10/4
Rogue: 10/3

This is off of Krakii's site. So, my question here. Paladins have the 2nd lowest TP cost for training MOC. It seems apparent that the devs decided to give Paladins access to the same tools that Warriors have when handling multiple opponents. You don't have Berserk, but that's ok. You get 1614 and 1630. You might not think those spells are so great, but considering that you can train MOC to handle DS pushdown, wear full plate armor, have significantly more DS due to your own spells, and affect multiple targets with spells -- you might be able to fight a swarm just about as well as a warrior.

Can you kill them as fast as a Bard or a Ranger? Nah. But, if the Bard or Ranger didn't have those mass-effect spells, how long do you think they'd be able to stand in the fray. Half as long as a Paladins? A tenth of the time? Would they be able to escape if they got in trouble?

There are a lot of great suggestions floating around that address core issues with the class. This one concept that Paladins "need" some form of mass disabler to handle like-level swarms seems to be a fallacy. I play a warrior most of my time, and I don't need a fancy mass-disabler to handle swarms. All I need is time and tactics.
Only problem with Paladins and MOC is that Paladins canNOT 2x in MOC like warriors can. So, to have the 5-strike open mstrike, a paladin has to be fully 1x in MOC and level 59 to do it.. whereas a warrior only has to be ~30. To get that second attacker pushdown removed, a paladin has to be level 24/25; where a warrior could get it at level 12.

Yeah, MOC is good... but to get any good use out of it, a paladin (like any semi) has to give up some things (spells, lores, mana share, tertiary skills) to get to a good amount of ranks in it.

[thefarmer]

Uhh, that's out of context of the whole discussion from my post, but all good.

Yes, Rangers and Bards can "take out the room", but that is not "good defense". In fact, it's completely the opposite, which demonstrates the point. The fact that they can "take out the room" is because they have a powerful --offense--. Which happens to be the other side of the coin.


In the world of tactics, one might claim a good offense is better than a good defense, but in the world of game mechanics the balance is very delicate. And if you go onto the spell description page and look up these mass spells, you'll notice they are clearly labled "offense".

I'm going to guess you don't put much stock in the phrase "A good defense is a good offense". Which is cool.

However, looking at it strictly as offensive and defensive, I happen to think that a Bards and Rangers offense is superior to a Paladins (when factoring in spells), while only giving up slightly less in the defense department. Or put another way, I think the offensive benefit given to Bards and Rangers is better than the defensive benefit given to Paladins.

With that said, I don't think we need something as powerful as Bards have, or even Rangers. What I would love to have is something similiar to ewave (call it Holy Wave or some such). And yes, I'm aware that Judgement can hit multiple targets but A) it requires a shitton of lore and B) I think it's silly a 10 mana spell can knock out a room better than a Paladin can. Aura of the Arkati was a good try, but again, unless you're hunting well underneath you, ewave still trumps.

I don't think asking for this type of spell would create an imbalance.

[thefarmer]

This is off of Krakii's site. So, my question here. Paladins have the 2nd lowest TP cost for training MOC. It seems apparent that the devs decided to give Paladins access to the same tools that Warriors have when handling multiple opponents. You don't have Berserk, but that's ok. You get 1614 and 1630. You might not think those spells are so great, but considering that you can train MOC to handle DS pushdown, wear full plate armor, have significantly more DS due to your own spells, and affect multiple targets with spells -- you might be able to fight a swarm just about as well as a warrior.

Paladins should be compared to other Semi's, not warriors.


Can you kill them as fast as a Bard or a Ranger? Nah. But, if the Bard or Ranger didn't have those mass-effect spells, how long do you think they'd be able to stand in the fray. Half as long as a Paladins? A tenth of the time? Would they be able to escape if they got in trouble?

I think you're not giving enough credit toward Bard and Ranger DS and redux.



There are a lot of great suggestions floating around that address core issues with the class. This one concept that Paladins "need" some form of mass disabler to handle like-level swarms seems to be a fallacy. I play a warrior most of my time, and I don't need a fancy mass-disabler to handle swarms. All I need is time and tactics.

Paladins should have been built with better swarm capabilities than they already have. Had they been coded with one originally, I doubt you'd be arguing that they should have it taken away because it was too powerful for the class.

[Maerit]

Only problem with Paladins and MOC is that Paladins canNOT 2x in MOC like warriors can. So, to have the 5-strike open mstrike, a paladin has to be fully 1x in MOC and level 59 to do it.. whereas a warrior only has to be ~30. To get that second attacker pushdown removed, a paladin has to be level 24/25; where a warrior could get it at level 12.

Yeah, MOC is good... but to get any good use out of it, a paladin (like any semi) has to give up some things (spells, lores, mana share, tertiary skills) to get to a good amount of ranks in it.

A warrior isn't going to have the TPs to 2x MOC and effectively train in the necessary skills (armor, weapon, defense skills, CM, PF, any tertiary climb/swim) prior to level 40 at the earliest. Most warriors 3x in armor use to get into full plate by level 50, and that usually leaves enough room for 1x in MOC at the most.

Bust out the training spreadsheet and give it a shot. It's pretty hard to work in 2x MOC and not sacrifice too much to operate as a warrior.

[Maerit]

Paladins should have been built with better swarm capabilities than they already have. Had they been coded with one originally, I doubt you'd be arguing that they should have it taken away because it was too powerful for the class.

No, I'd be arguing that warriors deserve better swarm capabilities then. Or rather, I'd just convert my warrior because the incredibly challenging decision to do so (which is how it should be) would become instantly simple because mechanically in every single aspect, the paladin would destroy the warrior class.

Why on earth would you compare a Defensive Hybrid to an Offensive Hybrid? Paladins are not an offensively oriented class. They are tanks. They stand in the front lines, capable of taking a beating better than any other class save the warrior, and they deal out damage to few targets.

I agree that you should compare all Semis from a training point cost perspective, but from a mechanical combat perspective that is a horrible comparison.



I think you're not giving enough credit toward Bard and Ranger DS and redux.

Sure I do. Go get a bunch of end rolls, compare the damage a paladin takes vs a Ranger and a Bard, and consider how significantly more a paladin in full plate reduces damage vs a Bard and Ranger in far lesser ASG based armors and their significantly reduced Redux. You'll probably have to look at that for capped characters because Rangers and Bards don't see significant redux at all until way later on.


I'm going to guess you don't put much stock in the phrase "A good defense is a good offense". Which is cool.

I don't. I've never heard this phrase because it's backwards. You can't perform offense by defending, it doesn't work that way. You can eliminate an offense by attacking, thus creating what some call the "best defense (is a strong offense)", but you cannot generate offensive power by defending. Strategically, mathematically, whatever you think, standing there and defending doesn't produce any form of an offense. You may have mis-phrased that, but please point me in the right direction because it doesn't sound feasible to turn a good defense into any sort of an offense unless you have some kind of reflective defense setup that is more devastating than the incoming attacks.

So basically what I am catching from the more vocal advocates is that Paladins should have defense that is nearly as good as Warriors (which is how it currently stands), Offensive disablers that take out an entire room reliably, and can be cast while wearing full plate armor which they can easily train to use, having the cheapest cost multi-opponent combat training of any class other than warriors, while retaining access to some of the more useful CMANs on the list, and have one of, if not, the highest AS based melee combat, perma-blessed weapons that can double-flare plasma and return to your hand when disarmed, and raise the dead a couple time a day?

Sign me up. That's the best class in the game hands down.

[StrayRogue]

A warrior isn't going to have the TPs to 2x MOC and effectively train in the necessary skills (armor, weapon, defense skills, CM, PF, any tertiary climb/swim) prior to level 40 at the earliest. Most warriors 3x in armor use to get into full plate by level 50, and that usually leaves enough room for 1x in MOC at the most.

Bust out the training spreadsheet and give it a shot. It's pretty hard to work in 2x MOC and not sacrifice too much to operate as a warrior.

Just like it's hard to factor in 1x MoC with lores, armour, CM etc as a paladin.

[StrayRogue]

I don't. I've never heard this phrase because it's backwards. You can't perform offense by defending, it doesn't work that way. You can eliminate an offense by attacking, thus creating what some call the "best defense (is a strong offense)", but you cannot generate offensive power by defending. Strategically, mathematically, whatever you think, standing there and defending doesn't produce any form of an offense. You may have mis-phrased that, but please point me in the right direction because it doesn't sound feasible to turn a good defense into any sort of an offense unless you have some kind of reflective defense setup that is more devastating than the incoming attacks.

It's a famous quote. It works both ways too.

For real practical applications, watch Chuck Liddel fight. He is (or was) one of the most reactive, defensive standup fighters out there.

[StrayRogue]

I'd also argue that plate tanked rogues can sustain more of a beating that paladins.

[thefarmer]

Why on earth would you compare a Defensive Hybrid to an Offensive Hybrid? Paladins are not an offensively oriented class. They are tanks. They stand in the front lines, capable of taking a beating better than any other class save the warrior, and they deal out damage to few targets.

I agree that you should compare all Semis from a training point cost perspective, but from a mechanical combat perspective that is a horrible comparison.

There is no Defensive Hybrid or Offensive Hybrid. You're making up terms that the game doesn't have to further classify and label what you think the professions (and classes) are.


Sure I do. Go get a bunch of end rolls, compare the damage a paladin takes vs a Ranger and a Bard, and consider how significantly more a paladin in full plate reduces damage vs a Bard and Ranger in far lesser ASG based armors and their significantly reduced Redux. You'll probably have to look at that for capped characters because Rangers and Bards don't see significant redux at all until way later on.

My point, is that the Ranger or Bard would not get hit as much. Having less redux means little when you don't get hit.


I don't. I've never heard this phrase because it's backwards. You can't perform offense by defending, it doesn't work that way.

Now you're just being obtuse. Possibly purposefully, because I can't imagine you've never heard the phrase in some form or another.




Sign me up. That's the best class in the game hands down.

Go look at empaths and clerics. Then look at the dev that would make them even more powerful. Even asking for something like an ewave or other crowd control would still put us far behind the best class in the game.

[Bhuryn]

Defense matters about as much as trading in a swarm when there's so many ways to get instagibed that seem to totally ignore redux and armor. Offense trumps defense in gemstone. It trumps it by a huge margin.

[Maerit]

It's a famous quote. It works both ways too.

For real practical applications, watch Chuck Liddel fight. He is (or was) one of the most reactive, defensive standup fighters out there.

I actually attempted to look up this quote, and failed.

If I were to guess though, I'd think it has to do with wearing down your opponent. The longer you can stand up to their attacks, the slower they get and the easier it is to finish them off. Whittle away at an opponent long enough while taking no damage yourself, and you'll become the victor in any battle?

I still don't see how that applies to the idea that Paladins would need some form of offensive mass disabler.


There is no Defensive Hybrid or Offensive Hybrid. You're making up terms that the game doesn't have to further classify and label what you think the professions (and classes) are.

No, I'm using a description of how the classes function. A Semi is a hybrid of square aspects and pure aspects. Paladins embody the defensive aspects of squares (heavy armor, high redux, lower TP costs for physical skills) while gaining the defensive benefits of their pure counterpart (defensive spells mainly, defensive passive abilities, and offensive augmentation to their attack strength).

Bards and Rangers seem to have a larger offensive skillset. They retain limited defensive abilities from the square side of things (lower base armor useage, less redux due to more focus on spell training and higher training costs for physical skills).

So, I'm simply referring to these classes as hybrids, a mix between square and pure, with specific bias towards offense or defense. Maybe I invented the terms, but they are accurate descriptions from my perspective.


My point, is that the Ranger or Bard would not get hit as much. Having less redux means little when you don't get hit.

We're talking in circles. Of course they don't get hit as much because their abilities allow them to disable and kill targets instead of tank them. Paladins are not designed that way.

Let me ask you a question. Why would you bother to train up to full plate armor if you could disable a room as well as a ranger or bard? What's the point in having the extra redux? Or, why can't Rangers and Bards get access to the same amount of redux and armor as Paladins.

If the title of the thread is Pros and Cons, what would be the Con of rolling paladin when they have a mass disabling ability?

[StrayRogue]

I actually attempted to look up this quote, and failed.

If I were to guess though, I'd think it has to do with wearing down your opponent. The longer you can stand up to their attacks, the slower they get and the easier it is to finish them off. Whittle away at an opponent long enough while taking no damage yourself, and you'll become the victor in any battle?



It's used in about a million films and probably every episode of the A-team.

[StrayRogue]

Your search skills must suck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_best_defense_is_a_good_offense

[DoctorUnne]

The quote is "the best defense is a good offense" and it's quite well-known.

The idea being with a superior offense you can wipe out the opponent before he/she has a chance to attack, thereby rendering your own defense unnecessary.

See nuclear arms race in the Cold War.

I think it does apply in this case. If a bard or ranger can wipe out the room with 1030 or 635, then their inferior defense doesn't really come into play.

Edit: Stray Rogue beat me to it

[thefarmer]

We're talking in circles. Of course they don't get hit as much because their abilities allow them to disable and kill targets instead of tank them. Paladins are not designed that way.

We're not talking in circles. You're ignoring the DS that a ranger and Bard has. Yet you specifically used the example of "But, if the Bard or Ranger didn't have those mass-effect spells, how long do you think they'd be able to stand in the fray." If they didn't have those mass spells.. They'd still generate a higher DS and not get hit as much.

However, it's convenient you can ignore the raw DS those two professions can generate and instead focus on their ability to kill the targets better than a Paladin ca... Yet it's funny how you don't understand (or have every heard of) how that phrase "good offense/good defense" works.

I'll reply to the other stuff if need be in after I finish cooking dinner.

[Bhuryn]

i think they should just remove the bind effect from 1614 and make it kneel/knockdown and hit them with RT based ont he warding failure and then make judgement more of an effective offensive spell.

[TheLastShamurai]

i think they should just remove the bind effect from 1614 and make it kneel/knockdown and hit them with RT based ont he warding failure and then make judgement more of an effective offensive spell.

I wouldn't remove the bind effect because it certainly has its uses, and the spell does do its job in respects to the DS pushdown. Rather, I would remove the slow effect, and make Pious Trial able to hit multiple opponents with lore. That way we have two different spells with different uses.

[Bhuryn]

I wouldn't remove the bind effect because it certainly has its uses, and the spell does do its job in respects to the DS pushdown. Rather, I would remove the slow effect, and make Pious Trial able to hit multiple opponents with lore. That way we have two different spells with different uses.

As long as it does something to CC mobs I learn from I could care less about the rest I guess =P.

[TheLastShamurai]

As long as it does something to CC mobs I learn from I could care less about the rest I guess =P.

Trust me, a 1602 that could hit multiple targets would be mad useful. It would be perfect for those times when you're facing multiple opponents, but you don't quite need to use 1630 {or fail at using 1630 :)}. It would help keep the mana costs less intensive for a lot of situations in my opinion.

Some people don't share my sentiment, but I think it would be awesome.

[Maerit]

The quote is "the best defense is a good offense" and it's quite well-known.



Yes, I know that one... Here are examples of me stating as such even before thefarmer's comment --


In the world of tactics, one might claim a good offense is better than a good defense

I simply misunderstood the poorly formatted quote from earlier which stated:


A good defense is a good offense

My poorly translated understanding of this statement was somehow indicating that a good defense = a good offense. As you can see, that doesn't really translate directly into the same concept as the best defense is a good offense. My bad there, but I completely understand the concept, and will apply it readily to Bards and Rangers combat system.

Yet at the same time, you have to admit that just because you can claim that Bards and Rangers have superior "defense" because of their stronger offensive capabilities, that does NOT make them a defensive class. It in fact makes them an offensive class.

Yes, we are talking in circles. Yes, I have said exactly this in a previous post, and I even pointed out that a good offense is considered a good defense in a previous posts (two at least). The raw DS of a class does not determine their ability to take a hit in a swarm. That raw DS means nothing in a swarm as it will continue to get pushed down faster than a paladin's (who can train MOC to negate FoF), and their lack of redux and heavy armor to absorb hits will result in significant wounds even from lower end-rolls.

All I have to say is good luck convincing the devs to give Paladins a mass-disabler. I'll be happy to jump on the paladin band-wagon if it happens and abandon my warrior for a much better melee class.

I appreciate all of Fallen's logical feedback on the spells and development of the class, but no one with the argument that paladins NEED a mass disabling ability has adequately demonstrated WHY they need it other than "Bards and Rangers have it". Just because you're not good at killing a swarm off in the same fashion as another class does not make you the lesser class. If that argument was valid, rogues and warriors are really screwed for balance.

[Danical]

A little late.. but Bards and Rangers don't stand in swarms. They can take out the room. In augmented chainmail. With semi-dux. If that's not considered a good defense, then I don't know what is.

You aren't going to have semi-dux if you're a 1030 bard.

[thefarmer]

You aren't going to have semi-dux if you're a 1030 bard.

Maximized 1030, no probably not, but even a weapon using bard can use the spell to great effect. I seem to remember a clip of a non-pure bard using it quite well in one thread or another. Maybe stretch's.

[Back]

Great thread really.

Learned a few things. Still staying tight. MOC next. Might look into using MIU and AS as it goes. More lores later.

[mgoddess]

A warrior isn't going to have the TPs to 2x MOC and effectively train in the necessary skills (armor, weapon, defense skills, CM, PF, any tertiary climb/swim) prior to level 40 at the earliest. Most warriors 3x in armor use to get into full plate by level 50, and that usually leaves enough room for 1x in MOC at the most.

Bust out the training spreadsheet and give it a shot. It's pretty hard to work in 2x MOC and not sacrifice too much to operate as a warrior.
I am pretty damn sure my warrior 2x'd MOC from the beginning and if she didn't steadily train in Survival/First Aid/Perception/Arcane Symbols, she would have been able to 3x her armor.

As it was, she 2x'd Armor Use, Shield Use, OHE, MOC, and PF. She 1.5x'd CM. And she 1x'd the above-mentioned Survival/First Aid/Perception/Arcane Symbols. And she had 20 ranks of Swimming and Climbing to boot.

[Bhuryn]

My warrior 2x'd MOC as well.

[Danical]

Maximized 1030, no probably not, but even a weapon using bard can use the spell to great effect. I seem to remember a clip of a non-pure bard using it quite well in one thread or another. Maybe stretch's.

Vinhs bard wasn't completely optimized for 1030 but damn close.

[Back]

The only time I’ve trained MOC early level is with a TWC Ranger and with two flaring weapons it was a riot.

Can’t do that with a paladin.

[Stunseed]

I remember with Stunseed pre-GS4 I trained in it and me and Altasren were fucking stupid in Grizzlies/Wolverines. Hitting 6 at once for like 8 seconds with no cooldown.

[thefarmer]

Vinhs bard wasn't completely optimized for 1030 but damn close.

Nah, I meant a different poster, but Stretch's original thread.

edit: This is the one I was thinking of:


Just a shot of how effective a non-pure bard can be using disruption. I know opinions differ but it is the most effective song in a bard's arsenal if used correctly.

>remove harp
You put a vermeil vultite arming sword in your weapon harness.
You put a veniom-bound rolaren tower shield in your weapon harness.
>play harp fast
You sling a rune-carved dark thanot harp off from over your shoulder.
>
Beginning without preamble, you start playing your dark thanot harp -- it rings with the speed of the notes, as you display your easy virtuosity and beautiful tone.
>renew 1030
>wear harp
You sing with renewed vigor!
You continue to sing a disruptive song.
CS: +331 - TD: +248 + CvA: +19 + d100: +25 == +127
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll guard reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 52 damage!
... 50 points of damage!
The troll guard's neck muscles contract violently, severing head from shoulders.
[You have earned 55 prestige points.]
The troll guard falls to the ground and dies.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The very powerful look leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The white light leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm troll guard.
The guiding force leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a Grimswarm troll guard.
The deep blue glow leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The powerful look leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The light blue glow leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm troll guard.

CS: +331 - TD: +197 + CvA: +10 + d100: +37 == +181
Warding failed!
>ready weapon
A Grimswarm troll guard reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 84 damage!
... 70 points of damage!
The troll guard's shoulder joint explodes, severing shield arm.
The guard's light crossbow falls to the ground.
The troll guard is stunned!

CS: +331 - TD: +214 + CvA: +8 + d100: +72 == +197
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll ranger reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 94 damage!
... 75 points of damage!
The troll ranger's shoulder joint explodes, severing weapon arm.
The ranger's short sword falls to the ground.
The troll ranger is stunned!

CS: +331 - TD: +200 + CvA: +18 + d100: +23 == +172
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll cleric reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 79 damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Heart explodes rupturing the troll cleric's chest.
[You have earned 40 prestige points.]
The troll cleric falls to the ground and dies.
The mote of white light next to a Grimswarm troll cleric disappears.
The wall of force disappears from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The opalescent aura fades from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The brilliant aura fades away from a Grimswarm troll cleric.
A Grimswarm troll cleric appears less confident.
The powerful look leaves a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The air calms down around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The light blue glow leaves a Grimswarm troll cleric.

CS: +331 - TD: +227 + CvA: +10 + d100: +60 == +174
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll guard reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 80 damage!
... 75 points of damage!
The troll guard's head vibrates violently, before melting away in a rush of heat.
[You have earned 60 prestige points.]
The troll guard falls to the ground and dies.

CS: +331 - TD: +210 + CvA: +9 + d100: +39 == +169
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll guard reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 77 damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Heart explodes rupturing the troll guard's chest.
[You have earned 40 prestige points.]
The troll guard falls to the ground and dies.

CS: +331 - TD: +220 + CvA: -13 + d100: +45 == +143
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll zealot reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 61 damage!
... 55 points of damage!
The troll zealot's eye explodes shattering the skull into a thousand pieces.
[You have earned 50 prestige points.]
The troll zealot falls to the ground and dies.
A Grimswarm troll zealot seems less resolute.

CS: +331 - TD: +219 + CvA: +11 + d100: +81 == +204
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm troll guard reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 98 damage!
... 85 points of damage!
The troll guard's midsection swells painfully then bursts, sending the troll guard everywhere.
[You have earned 60 prestige points.]
The troll guard rolls over and dies.
A subtle light fades from a Grimswarm troll guard's eyes.
A Grimswarm troll guard seems slightly different.
The deep blue glow leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.
A white glow rushes away from a Grimswarm troll guard.
The dim aura fades from around a Grimswarm troll guard.
The light blue glow leaves a Grimswarm troll guard.

Renewing "Song of Sonic Disruption" for 20 mana.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
In one last show of speed, your fingers draw an intricate finale from your harp; the concluding phrase flutters breathlessly, then stops abruptly as you muffle the resonance with both hands.
You sling a rune-carved dark thanot harp over your shoulder.

[Baelog]

Quite the runaway thread...

Anyway, Maerit, your forgetting about another tool that Warriors have for Crowd Control...Warcry.

warc cry all
You let loose an eerie, modulating cry!
A lesser minotaur looks at you in utter terror!
A lesser minotaur bolts south!
A krag yeti looks at you in utter terror!
A krag yeti bolts north!
A krag dweller looks at you in utter terror!
A krag dweller bolts north!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

That was when I was still hunting Minotaurs, Yeti, and Dwellers.

[Maerit]

Quite the runaway thread...

Anyway, Maerit, your forgetting about another tool that Warriors have for Crowd Control...Warcry.

warc cry all
You let loose an eerie, modulating cry!
A lesser minotaur looks at you in utter terror!
A lesser minotaur bolts south!
A krag yeti looks at you in utter terror!
A krag yeti bolts north!
A krag dweller looks at you in utter terror!
A krag dweller bolts north!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

That was when I was still hunting Minotaurs, Yeti, and Dwellers.

Well, I didn't forget about warcries at all, they just aren't effective for my character. I think it's because my warrior's stats are messed up, and his influence bonus is negative. Since it's never been a viable tool in my character's arsenal against anything within 10 levels, it didn't seem worth the mention. Don't your vocal chords give out too often to really use Carn's Cry more than like 3 times an hour? I can only manage to growl like 5 times, and then I have to rest for an hour.

I'd consider warcries for crowd control to be about as reliable as 1614 with a heavy restraints on the ability to use them with any frequency.

It really has been an interesting thread with lots of good perspectives on all sides.

[Baelog]

Yeah, it might be because my INF is currently 83 (21)...a lot of people decide to use INF as the dump stat, but you really don't want to if you want effective Warcries.

A believe Carn's Cry is 4 times, and fully blown vocals take about 30 minutes to recover, but using the Room version takes more of a toll on your voice.

For me, I'd consider it a good CC, especially if you have a high enough INF, with a little bit of luck tossed in.

Oh yeah, you can Bellow a LOT when you master Warcry.

[Danical]

edit: This is the one I was thinking of:

Right, but he had to use an instrument which makes your DS plummet insanely low. He has to hope he hits everything and/or doesn't fumble on the roll and with grimswarm, they can just pop back up and beat the christ out of you.

I'd say it's really dangerous using an instrument. It's pretty much an all or none situation and eventually time will get the best of you.

But yeah, even at really low endrolls it's still insanely effective against corp creatures. Having the proper manipulation (60 open / 75 target or THW instrument) is exactly like increasing the warding margin of the spell by 60 so a 101 roll is exactly like a 161 roll for the purposes of the spell.

[Donquix]

I am pretty damn sure my warrior 2x'd MOC from the beginning and if she didn't steadily train in Survival/First Aid/Perception/Arcane Symbols, she would have been able to 3x her armor.

As it was, she 2x'd Armor Use, Shield Use, OHE, MOC, and PF. She 1.5x'd CM. And she 1x'd the above-mentioned Survival/First Aid/Perception/Arcane Symbols. And she had 20 ranks of Swimming and Climbing to boot.

I 2x MOC and armor, while maintaining 2x TWC, brawling, CM, and physical fitness, 1.5x dodge and took climb/swim to 10 ranks each by 20.

It was all i could afford, basically. I squeezed in a few ranks of AS/MIU (that i never use really, so honestly i should drop for now)

I had no room for things like FA or survival, and that was just 2x with armor. My stats were placed mainly for early leveling (i never planned to get this character TO 20, let alone to 44 that I am now) so i had more points to play with than a warrior with stats placed for growth.

after i had 3 focused mstrike hits i stopped MOC and started bringing my armor up to 3x, when i hit the level where I could get up to a 4th focused mstrike i brought MOC back up to a full 2x (level 43 for 90 ranks) WHILE bringing armor up to a full 3x to get my 140 for full plate by level 45.

This was very difficult to do, and in fact to pull it off I had to completely stop training any other skills but MOC and armor for a few levels, which i am now working on bringing back up to full 2x (sucked going like 4 levels without any AS increase)

It is very taxing on a warrior to 2x moc while competing in the race to full plate. My training plan is a bit different than most, and most warriors can probably stop training MOC at like 60 ranks, which would give you 3 FOF offset, 3 focused hits, and a 5 target open MOC.

Just pointing out that even for a warrior to 2x moc you basically give up all secondary skills. I have zero first aid (and i'm in voln, so that's annoying...no staunching or bandaging in emergencies) zero survival, and minuscule magic skills. I don't know where i'd find the points for some HP if i was in sunfist.

This problem sort of goes away if you consider armor overtraining unnecessary, as once i let armor start slipping back to from 3x, by 60 or so i can be full 2x in moc and have brought my survival/fa up to 1x each with my other core skills at 2x (1.5x for dodge)

This was just a long winded post to say that, people make it sound really easy for warriors to just tack on MOC, and while doable, you give up everything to fit that into a full training plan for hunting. It's a bit of a sacrifice, even for a warrior.

[Androidpk]

Sounds like my warrior. Except for 15 ranks of climbing and 15 ranks of swimming I have no secondary skills, no points for them. And thats only with 1x MOC. I'm probably going to drop down to 2x armor temporarily to boost MOC up to 2x since I can now get 5 targets with berserk.

[Fallen]

Don't those drinks from the adventurer's guild help with one's throat issues? I know they do for bards.

[Danical]

Don't those drinks from the adventurer's guild help with one's throat issues? I know they do for bards.

Throat balm and yes it alleviates the vocal stress.

If you're a warrior and didn't tank your INF (like I did with mine :( :( :(), you can get a fucking shitload of mileage out of warcry bellow all.

If you have fantastic INF (elf and/or enhancives) then you can reliably force someone into 20 seconds of RT and pick apart a group as you see fit. Or you could be a total cunt and just stack the RT which grimswarm warchiefs seem to do to me from time to time.

[Fallen]

Throat balm and yes it alleviates the vocal stress.

If you're a warrior and didn't tank your INF (like I did with mine :( :( :(), you can get a fucking shitload of mileage out of warcry bellow all.

Thought so. More warriors should rock Inf enhancives and throat balms. You should also be able to make that shit via alchemy.

[Durgrimst]

Pros:

Not an mstrike, but hell I thought it was nice....


You gesture at a triton executioner.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton executioner!
CS: +447 - TD: +309 + CvA: +20 + d100: +52 == +210
Warding failed!
The triton executioner is stricken for 67 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Bloody slash to the triton executioner's side!
Instant death, due to lack of intestines.
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +447 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +71 == +214
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 83 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Wicked slash slices open the siren's chest!
Heart and lungs pureed!
Sickening!
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton dissembler!
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton dissembler suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +447 - TD: +312 + CvA: +25 + d100: +13 == +173
Warding failed!
The triton dissembler is stricken for 85 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Deep slash to the triton dissembler's neck severs an artery!
The triton dissembler chokes to death on her own blood.
The triton dissembler collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
The deep blue glow leaves a triton dissembler.
A triton dissembler loses its focused look.
A shadow seems to detach itself from a triton dissembler, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton dissembler.
The powerful look leaves a triton dissembler.
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton dissembler!
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton dissembler suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +447 - TD: +322 + CvA: +25 + d100: +34 == +184
Warding failed!
The triton dissembler is stricken for 83 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Wild upward slash removes the triton dissembler's face from his skull!
Interesting way to die.
The triton dissembler collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
The deep blue glow leaves a triton dissembler.
A triton dissembler loses its focused look.
A shadow seems to detach itself from a triton dissembler, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton dissembler.
The light blue glow leaves a triton dissembler.

Cons:
Widgets

[Bhuryn]

Pros:


Cons:
Widgets

And that happens how often? My judgement rarely kills a single target let alone 4.

[AMUSED1]

CON: Hevinsbane is one.

[Durgrimst]

And that happens how often? My judgement rarely kills a single target let alone 4.

HEH, think of how many spell ranks it takes to produce that CS...

He kills people all the time with 1630.

[Widgets]

And that happens how often? My judgement rarely kills a single target let alone 4.

That CS was also without 1612 up...And all I did was walk into the room, and saw 4 critters so I'm like ah hell with it and casted. Durg knows I never cast normally when I hunt the Temple, it's a waste of time heh

[Danical]

Judgment, if you're trained for it, is pretty badass. Not nearly as fucking awesome as 1030 but still, it's fairly good.

[Widgets]

CON: Hevinsbane is one.

rofl

[Fallen]

Judgment, if you're trained for it, is pretty badass. Not nearly as fucking awesome as 1030 but still, it's fairly good.

As I think i've mentioned before, I watch Debia throwing the spell around and wasn't too blown away with it. She is pretty damn well trained for it too.

[Durgrimst]

As I think i've mentioned before, I watch Debia throwing the spell around and wasn't too blown away with it. She is pretty damn well trained for it too.

The pali in Widgets post has 30 MnS and 114 Pali spell ranks. I doubt there is a pali in the game with more than that...

[droit]

Some post-cap paladin with a fixskill to blow needs to check out a 2x spell build.

[Fallen]

The pali in Widgets post has 30 MnS and 114 Pali spell ranks. I doubt there is a pali in the game with more than that...

Cool, so the most lopsidedly trained Paladin in the game can make the spell look pretty, but isn't himself all that impressed with it.

P.S.

Sabreon and/or Menos may have comparable ranks. They are both pretty out there in terms of training plans.

[TheLastShamurai]

As I think i've mentioned before, I watch Debia throwing the spell around and wasn't too blown away with it. She is pretty damn well trained for it too.

Like a lot of spells, its ability to pwn is decently random based on the critter you're casting at, crit type, crit location and end roll.

As we all know, the only way to improve it is by getting a higher CS via spell ranks, which only helps with increasing the end roll. So what is amounts to is that sometimes you'll cast it and just have to be happy you managed to make them kneel {instead of knocking them down :(}, and other times it completely wtfpwns everything it hits.

If I weren't 100 I'd be mildly tempted to convert to an Arkati with impact crits to increase pwnage.

[TheLastShamurai]

Cool, so the most lopsidedly trained Paladin in the game can make the spell look pretty, but isn't himself all that impressed with it.

P.S.

Sabreon and/or Menos may have comparable ranks. They are both pretty out there in terms of training plans.

I don't know about Sabreon, but I know Menos doesn't have that many.

EDIT: Unless he has fixskilled recently.

[Fallen]

Like a lot of spells, its ability to pwn is decently random based on the critter you're casting at, crit type, crit location and end roll.

As we all know, the only way to improve it is by getting a higher CS via spell ranks, which only helps with increasing the end roll. So what is amounts to is that sometimes you'll cast it and just have to be happy you managed to make them kneel {instead of knocking them down :(}, and other times it completely wtfpwns everything it hits.

If I weren't 100 I'd be mildly tempted to convert to an Arkati with impact crits to increase pwnage.

Reliability is IMO the most important aspect of a disabler spell. The spell needs more of it for sure. I hope Mestys takes a serious look at some of the ROIs of Paladin spells. Someone should e-mail him directly with that prone RT bug. He can be a bit flakey about the boards.

[Fallen]

I don't know about Sabreon, but I know Menos doesn't have that many.

EDIT: Unless he has fixskilled recently.

Sabreon is 3x+ capped. Scary amount of skills. I have no idea if he is still active anymore, though.

[Durgrimst]

Cool, so the most lopsidedly trained Paladin in the game can make the spell look pretty, but isn't himself all that impressed with it.

P.S.

Sabreon and/or Menos may have comparable ranks. They are both pretty out there in terms of training plans.

Heh, it's not that his spell doesn't impress him. That pali generally doesn't need to cast due to his insane AS and CMan ranks, with spells on, he is almost 3x CMan and has a self cast AS of 634.

And as he said, I think he should cast more often, but he is succesful without doing it.

[Fallen]

Heh, it's not that his spell doesn't impress him. That pali generally doesn't need to cast due to his insane AS and CMan ranks, with spells on, he is almost 3x CMan and has a self cast AS of 634.

And as he said, I think he should cast more often, but he is succesful without doing it.

I think Sabreon walks around with a 650 AS. It is insane what any semi, but especially Paladins can do FAR post cap in terms of raw AS. Their crew walks through OTF like a damn chainsaw. I know it sucks for other people that MA crews bring up swarms, but that was the best part of OTF for me. I noticed a distinct lack of swarms in the Temple.

[Bhuryn]

Menos has 101 spell ranks I believe. I think he has 140 though so only 61 paladin ranks.

[Durgrimst]

I think Sabreon walks around with a 650 AS. It is insane what any semi, but especially Paladins can do FAR post cap in terms of raw AS. Their crew walks through OTF like a damn chainsaw. I know it sucks for other people that MA crews bring up swarms, but that was the best part of OTF for me. I noticed a distinct lack of swarms in the Temple.

Widgets pali is at 20mill EXP, I have no idea where Sabreon is at, but I know with the group buffs he wears, it does help out the AS a ton.

[droit]

I think Sabreon walks around with a 650 AS. It is insane what any semi, but especially Paladins can do FAR post cap in terms of raw AS.

:( Rangers get the short end of the semi AS stick.

[Widgets]

I think Sabreon walks around with a 650 AS. It is insane what any semi, but especially Paladins can do FAR post cap in terms of raw AS. Their crew walks through OTF like a damn chainsaw. I know it sucks for other people that MA crews bring up swarms, but that was the best part of OTF for me. I noticed a distinct lack of swarms in the Temple.

Sabreon is still around, just not as often as he used to be. He is a TWC Paladin which is quite nice given his XP...However, he walks around with a 650 AS because he has a horde following him. I also don't think he's broke 101 Pali Ranks, but it's been a little bit since I last saw him on and his skill set

The Pali I use, swings a constant 634 self cast and thats with a 4x mattock, without any Bard/Clerical assistance. Just signs, wiz strength and surge.

[Fallen]

D's AS is fairly high when she is fully decked out, but she gets a lot of help from Scrolls via Evarin, and is bonded to a 10x Falchion. Self-cast at cap is kinda meh.

[Durgrimst]

D's AS is fairly high when she is fully decked out, but she gets a lot of help from Scrolls via Evarin, and is bonded to a 10x Falchion. Self-cast at cap is kinda meh.

It might just be me, but I think 634 is pretty damn good.

[ElvenFury]

D's AS is fairly high when she is fully decked out, but she gets a lot of help from Scrolls via Evarin, and is bonded to a 10x Falchion. Self-cast at cap is kinda meh.

LOL. Didn't you quit?

[Fallen]

LOL. Didn't you quit?

Yes. Were you confused by my use of tenses or something? Swap got for get and you should be good to go.

[Danical]

FINALLY!!!

Hevinsbane's eyes glow with white light, and then everything around you vanishes into a matching white radiance streaked with pure black.
CS: +402 - TD: +332 + CvA: -8 + d100: +79 == +141
Warding failed!
Your spirit quails beneath the onslaught of power as waves of sacred energy tear through your body!
... 31 points of damage!
A swirling sonic barrier partially deflects the onslaught of the fiery attack.
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to neck chars skin. Yuck!
You are stunned for 1 round!
You are driven to your knees!
Roundtime: 10 sec.




Dstrike and Judgment are actually pretty fucking awesome since they can stance force, kneel, crit, RT push. However, I think the RT is ONLY if you kneel the target, I'll have to do more testing. I'm not sure if the stance force is dependent on be putting into kneeling.

[Fallen]

Isn't the bug that critters don't get that RT?

[Stunseed]

:( Rangers get the short end of the semi AS stick.

With the toy in my possession, I can get Stun's thrown AS to 543. That isn't too bad. When I get the balls to jump to 2x CM it'll get even better.

[TheLastShamurai]

Isn't the bug that critters don't get that RT?

No, the bug {if it is a bug}, is that they don't get RT when the crits knock them down.

[Fallen]

No, the bug {if it is a bug}, is that they don't get RT when the crits knock them down.

Ah, I see what you're saying. That's bullshit.

[TheLastShamurai]

Ah, I see what you're saying. That's bullshit.

Yeah, I don't like it that's for sure. It basically lowers your 85% chance to kneel as your CS goes up because you cause better crits.

[Bhuryn]

Ah, I see what you're saying. That's bullshit.

Yep, if they just changed the spell to give (even variable) rt based on the failure it fix the whole issue.

[TheLastShamurai]

Yep, if they just changed the spell to give (even variable) rt based on the failure it fix the whole issue.

That's the thing though, I don't believe it's a "failure to make them kneel."

I believe it's a successful hit, and had you not knocked them to the ground they would have suffered the kneeling effect and RT.

Which is why I think it's BS, because it basically punishes you for improving your CS and getting better crits.

[Bhuryn]

That's the thing though, I don't believe it's a "failure to make them kneel."

I believe it's a successful hit, and had you not knocked them to the ground they would have suffered the kneeling effect and RT.

No, what I mean is if you ward the critter they get 10 seconds of RT. It would address that issue. It would make the spell marginally better in that it would work 15% more often, but meh.

[Fallen]

They should just change the fucking order of the spell. Critters are made to kneel FIRST, THEN struck with the damaging aspect of the spell. Either way, then, you get the critters in RT. Think of how shitty Major E-wave would be if it did damage first, and those it knocked down didn't get RT.

[Danical]

They should just change the fucking order of the spell. Critters are made to kneel FIRST, THEN struck with the damaging aspect of the spell. Either way, then, you get the critters in RT. Think of how shitty Major E-wave would be if it did damage first, and those it knocked down didn't get RT.

They should, and it seriously couldn't be hard to change the priority of the code but for whatever reason, they just won't fucking to do it.

It's maddening.

[Fallen]

They should, and it seriously couldn't be hard to change the priority of the code but for whatever reason, they just won't fucking to do it.

It's maddening.

It is not a lost cause until Mestys clearly states that the spell is working as intended.

[Bhuryn]

The new rift area is apparently more important.

[Durgrimst]

With the toy in my possession, I can get Stun's thrown AS to 543. That isn't too bad. When I get the balls to jump to 2x CM it'll get even better.

Post clips, I wanna see how it's working for ya.

[Durgrimst]

They should, and it seriously couldn't be hard to change the priority of the code but for whatever reason, they just won't fucking to do it.

It's maddening.

IM me sometime and we can do all the testing on critters/you that you want.

[Danical]

IM me sometime and we can do all the testing on critters/you that you want.

Unless you have fire/ice/lit flares, I can't test with you.

[Stunseed]

I'll be on Stun this weekend fully ammo'd up. On special occasions, I bring out the toys and grandstand. ( Divine Shield, Heroism, Dauntless, CoS, Strength of Will, etc )

When I'm on Stun and lazy, I'll go self-spelled and spike-sorc.

[Durgrimst]

I'll be on Stun this weekend fully ammo'd up. On special occasions, I bring out the toys and grandstand. ( Divine Shield, Heroism, Dauntless, CoS, Strength of Will, etc )

When I'm on Stun and lazy, I'll go self-spelled and spike-sorc.

Are those from scrolls or toys?

For the record I NEVER use scrolls so I don't even know which of those are available.

[Stunseed]

I have 1606 and1609 items. The rest are from a scroll binge I was on a year ago. Evarin still hates me for the hours of work I put him through.

[Durgrimst]

Unless you have fire/ice/lit flares, I can't test with you.

My guy is V'Tull which is slash if I remember correctly, we can get that resistance from a warrior and maybe add that on top of some slash resstant leathers, heh, or I can provide the chrisms/coins if ya die. Critters are easy to test on, I'm just to lazy to compile the data so I could just send logs or we could team up in the Temple or a warcamp.

[Fallen]

I have 1606 and1609 items. The rest are from a scroll binge I was on a year ago. Evarin still hates me for the hours of work I put him through.

It's true, he really does hate you.

[Durgrimst]

These casts are all on fresh characters right when I would walk into a room. These are not nearly as impressive as Droit's but they aren't bad.



You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a siren.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +29 == +203
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 57 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash!
The triton combatant's chest is ripped open!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +43 == +188
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 56 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Hard slash to the siren's side!
Right arm no longer available for use.
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +331 + CvA: +20 + d100: +54 == +192
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 57 points of damage!
... 65 points of damage!
Slash to the siren's ribs opens a sucking chest wound!
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
The bright luminescence fades from around a siren.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a siren.


Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +47 == +221
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 90 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Deep slash to the triton combatant's neck severs an artery!
The triton combatant chokes to death on her own blood.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton radical!
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +449 - TD: +323 + CvA: +25 + d100: +11 == +162
Warding failed!
The triton radical is stricken for 33 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Fast slash to the triton radical's neck exposes her windpipe.
Quick anatomy lesson, anyone?

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +23 == +168
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 52 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Amazing slash to the siren's belly!
Nothing quite like that empty feeling inside.
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +99 == +273
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 120 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Horrible slash to the triton combatant's head! Brain matter goes flying!
Looks like he never felt a thing.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +70 == +244
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 109 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Awesome slash severs the triton combatant's right arm!
A jagged stump is all that remains!
The combatant's silvery blue trident falls to the ground.
The triton combatant is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +41 == +186
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 96 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Deft slash!
The siren is spun around and hit hard in her lower back.
It is knocked to the ground!
The siren is stunned!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +42 == +187
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 47 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
It is knocked to the ground!
The siren is stunned!

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a siren.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a spectral triton defender!
CS: +449 - TD: +305 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +183
Warding failed!
The triton defender is stricken for 36 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
The triton defender is driven to his knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +331 + CvA: +20 + d100: +13 == +151
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 59 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Slash to the siren's lower back!
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +298 + CvA: +20 + d100: +49 == +220
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 88 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Hard slash to the triton combatant's side!
Left arm no longer available for use.
The combatant's brine-stained parma falls to the ground.
The triton combatant is driven to his knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +26 == +171
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 69 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Slash to head destroys the siren's left eye!
Doesn't do her brain any good either.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[Bhuryn]

It's kinda funny, never heard anyone say anything good about the slash flares but they two best Judgements posted have been slash =P.

Makes me wonder.

[Widgets]

These casts are all on fresh characters right when I would walk into a room. These are not nearly as impressive as Droit's but they aren't bad.



You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a siren.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +29 == +203
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 57 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash!
The triton combatant's chest is ripped open!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +43 == +188
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 56 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Hard slash to the siren's side!
Right arm no longer available for use.
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +331 + CvA: +20 + d100: +54 == +192
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 57 points of damage!
... 65 points of damage!
Slash to the siren's ribs opens a sucking chest wound!
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
The bright luminescence fades from around a siren.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a siren.


Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +47 == +221
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 90 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Deep slash to the triton combatant's neck severs an artery!
The triton combatant chokes to death on her own blood.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton radical!
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +449 - TD: +323 + CvA: +25 + d100: +11 == +162
Warding failed!
The triton radical is stricken for 33 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Fast slash to the triton radical's neck exposes her windpipe.
Quick anatomy lesson, anyone?

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +23 == +168
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 52 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Amazing slash to the siren's belly!
Nothing quite like that empty feeling inside.
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +99 == +273
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 120 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Horrible slash to the triton combatant's head! Brain matter goes flying!
Looks like he never felt a thing.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +295 + CvA: +20 + d100: +70 == +244
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 109 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Awesome slash severs the triton combatant's right arm!
A jagged stump is all that remains!
The combatant's silvery blue trident falls to the ground.
The triton combatant is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +41 == +186
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 96 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Deft slash!
The siren is spun around and hit hard in her lower back.
It is knocked to the ground!
The siren is stunned!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +42 == +187
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 47 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
It is knocked to the ground!
The siren is stunned!

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



>1630
Voodoo '1630' to 'INCANT 1630'.
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a siren.
You briefly close your eyes, and a dark miasma roils about the ground around your feet. A faint black light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes on the shape of an ethereal scimitar!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a spectral triton defender!
CS: +449 - TD: +305 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +183
Warding failed!
The triton defender is stricken for 36 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
The triton defender is driven to his knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +331 + CvA: +20 + d100: +13 == +151
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 59 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Slash to the siren's lower back!
The siren is stunned!
The siren is driven to her knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a triton combatant!
CS: +449 - TD: +298 + CvA: +20 + d100: +49 == +220
Warding failed!
The triton combatant is stricken for 88 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Hard slash to the triton combatant's side!
Left arm no longer available for use.
The combatant's brine-stained parma falls to the ground.
The triton combatant is driven to his knees!
A torrent of incarnadine essence streams out from the blade of the ethereal scimitar, striking a siren!
CS: +449 - TD: +324 + CvA: +20 + d100: +26 == +171
Warding failed!
The siren is stricken for 69 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Slash to head destroys the siren's left eye!
Doesn't do her brain any good either.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.

The ethereal scimitar violently explodes, leaving nothing to remain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You forgot to use 1612..

[Bhuryn]

slash looks a lot better then i expected.

[Danical]

slash looks a lot better then i expected.

:confused:

As with all flare/crit mechanics the crit type just denotes the threshold levels for fatality. If you're getting rank 8+ on any vital location, chances are you're going to kill no matter the crit type.

[Bhuryn]

:confused:

As with all flare/crit mechanics the crit type just denotes the threshold levels for fatality. If you're getting rank 8+ on any vital location, chances are you're going to kill no matter the crit type.

Right, I always thought had slash some of the worst death crit thresholds. Apparently that's not the case though judging by their endrolls vs mine. My paladin worships Zelia so I tend to get them all (seems to be cold more then anything else). I can't remember the last time i've gotten a true death crit from Judgement or DS. May things I hunt I can get endrolls in the 150-200 range pretty frequently. Even when I help friends my DS rarely kills things half my level unless it bleeds them out.

[droit]

Right, I always thought had slash some of the worst death crit thresholds. Apparently that's not the case though judging by their endrolls vs mine.

This list is obviously incomplete, but you might find it enlightening:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=916893&postcount=6

[Bhuryn]

Ah, nice, I was looking on krakiipedia for a list like that. Just about anything is better then cold I imagine though.

[Danical]

I thought Crush: Chest was fatal at 8.

Massive blow punches a hole through the <creature>'s chest!

[DoctorUnne]

I thought Crush: Chest was fatal at 8.

Massive blow punches a hole through the <creature>'s chest!

nope

[Menos]

Just wanted to pop in and comment a bit. I quite like the paladin profession, although there are plenty of things here I can agree are problems for them. While Menos the paladin does much better in swarms than Menos the warrior, they still lack a true area damage spell. 1630 is a good spell, but it has basically every limitation to a multi-target attack. It is player unfriendly, has very limited targets that require additional training, is CS based, and does not do outstanding overall damage. Either an area disabler like e-wave/major e-wave or a tree mass damage spell would make a world of difference to their combat abilities. I wish open web had been an area effect maneuver, to both give paladins a mass target ability and give the spirit side something akin to minor elemental, but such is life.

For me, paladins are just warriors with less weapon options and a little easier time learning to spell up. They can recast in the field and get a few small tricks to deal with small to moderate groups of foes. The DS/redux tradeoff is mostly a wash. Any other shortfalls of paladins fall into the same category as what is wrong with warriors to my mind.

I also wanted to post some non-slash based 1630/15 casts. I need to head out to OTF, but I still have a bandit task in my buffer.

And for those who were wondering, this is with 40 minor spirit and 61 paladin ranks. I want to add more, and will get around to it at some point.


>w
[Sylvarraend Road]
A guard post has been erected here at a bend in the road. The guard stands his post, eyeing the travellers and caravans as they move at a determined pace to their destinations.
Obvious paths: east, northwest
>
Suddenly, a tiny shard of jet black crystal flies from the shadows toward you!
You manage to avoid being hit by the crystal as it shatters harmlessly nearby!
>
Suddenly, a tiny shard of jet black crystal flies from the shadows toward you!
You manage to avoid being hit by the crystal as it shatters harmlessly nearby!
>nw
[Sylvarraend Road]
Evidence of frequent travel along the cobblestone road manifests itself all around. Twin grooves in its surface cut the road into three distinct parts, each roughly equal to the other. Passersby talk with each other in hushed yet excited tones, as they wander toward and away from the city of Ta'Illistim.
Obvious paths: southeast, northwest
>se
[Sylvarraend Road]
A guard post has been erected here at a bend in the road. The guard stands his post, eyeing the travellers and caravans as they move at a determined pace to their destinations.
Obvious paths: east, northwest
>incant 1614
A half-elven bandit springs from the shadows and strikes at you!
[Roll result: 121 (open d100: 52)]
A half-elven bandit delivers a blow to your head with his scimitar!
...2 damage!
You are dazed!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
...wait 5 seconds.
R>
A half-elven mugger leaps out of his hiding place!
A half-elven mugger leaps out of his hiding place!
In a breathtaking display of agility and combat mastery, a half-elven mugger whirls in a fury of unrelenting strikes and ripostes!
A half-elven mugger swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +441 vs DS: +782 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +69 = -249
A clean miss.

R>
A half-elven bandit swings a scimitar at you!
You skillfully dodge the attack!
R>
A plain wooden arrow flies out of the shadows toward you!
AS: +424 vs DS: +519 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +39 = -38
A clean miss.
The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.
R>incant 1630
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a half-elven bandit.
[Spell Hindrance for a full suit of golvern plate armor is 7% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 4]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A half-elven mugger pulls out a tiny shard of jet black crystal and hurls it at you!
You manage to avoid being hit by the crystal as it shatters harmlessly nearby!
>
[Roll result: 76 (open d100: 42)]
A half-elven bandit kicks his leg at your groin, but you manage to turn away in time, resulting in a light kick to your leg instead.
>incant 1630
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a half-elven bandit.
You briefly close your eyes, and the very air behind you ripples like a storm-ravaged ocean. A faint emerald light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes the shape of an ethereal trident!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking a half-elven bandit!
CS: +430 - TD: +291 + CvA: -10 + d100: +98 == +227
Warding failed!
The half-elven bandit is stricken for 122 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Horrifying jolt of electricity fries chest to a crisp. Toasty!
The half-elven bandit is stunned!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking a half-elven mugger!
CS: +430 - TD: +297 + CvA: 0 + d100: +95 == +228
Warding failed!
The half-elven mugger is stricken for 106 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Horrifying jolt of electricity fries abdomen to a crisp. Upper torso falls to the ground. Talk about repugnant!

[You have 16 kills remaining.]
The half-elven mugger falls to the ground and dies.
A dwarven highwayman is forced out of hiding.
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking a dwarven highwayman!
CS: +430 - TD: +291 + CvA: -1 + d100: +85 == +223
Warding failed!
The dwarven highwayman is stricken for 68 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Arcing bolt of electricity snaps through neck as if it wasn't there and now it really isn't. Instant Death.

[You have 15 kills remaining.]
The dwarven highwayman falls to the ground and dies.

The ethereal trident dissolves into a spray of seawater.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>loot
You search the half-elven mugger.
He had a wrinkled green bandana.
You discard the mugger's remaining useless equipment.
He had 126 silvers on him.
You gather the remaining 126 coins.
He had nothing else of value.
A half-elven mugger decays into compost.
>loot
You search the dwarven highwayman.
He had a blue neckerchief.
You discard the highwayman's remaining useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had an uncut diamond on him!
He had nothing else of value.
A dwarven highwayman decays into compost.
>stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
>ambush
You thrust with a superior vaalorn awl-pike at a half-elven bandit!
AS: +544 vs DS: +307 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +83 = +372
... and hit for 138 points of damage!
Amazing shot through the half-elven bandit's nose enters the brain!

[You have 14 kills remaining.]
The half-elven bandit falls to the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 7 sec.
R>loot
>
You search the half-elven bandit.
He had a black neckerchief.
You discard the bandit's remaining useless equipment.
He had 199 silvers on him.
You gather the remaining 199 coins.
He left an ayanad crystal behind.
He had nothing else of value.
A half-elven bandit decays into compost.




[Roll result: 85 (open d100: 43)]
An elven thief springs upon you from behind and delivers a blow to your head!
Annoying, but otherwise inconsequential.
>
A dwarven outlaw is revealed from hiding.
A dwarven outlaw fires a plain wooden arrow at you!
AS: +439 vs DS: +535 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +72 = -6
A clean miss.
The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.
>incant 1615
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an elven thief.
A pillar of ocean blue radiance manifests around an elven thief.
CS: +430 - TD: +294 + CvA: -10 + d100: +30 == +156
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the elven thief's body!
... 43 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Electrical charge toasts foe! You get a sharp whiff of burning hair.

[You have 13 kills remaining.]
The elven thief falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A half-krolvin marauder springs from the shadows and strikes at you!
[Roll result: 60 (open d100: -16)]
A half-krolvin marauder delivers a blow to your head with his broadsword! It stings slightly, but is otherwise inconsequential.
>loot
You search the elven thief.
He had a black neckerchief.
You discard the thief's remaining useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing of interest.
An elven thief decays into compost.
>incant 1615
>
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a half-krolvin marauder.
A pillar of ocean blue radiance manifests around a half-krolvin marauder.
CS: +430 - TD: +300 + CvA: 0 + d100: +55 == +185
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the half-krolvin marauder's body!
... 37 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Electric shock causes a strong enough convulsion to snap the half-krolvin marauder's neck.

[You have 12 kills remaining.]
The half-krolvin marauder falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
[Roll result: 93 (open d100: 80)]
A dwarven outlaw feints to the left, and you almost buy the ruse, but you recover just in time.

Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>incant 1615
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dwarven outlaw.
A pillar of ocean blue radiance manifests around a dwarven outlaw.
CS: +430 - TD: +294 + CvA: 0 + d100: +81 == +217
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the dwarven outlaw's body!
... 73 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Immense electrical bolt finds right eye the perfect conductor to ground out in. A shocking death indeed.

[You have 11 kills remaining.]
The dwarven outlaw falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>loot
You search the dwarven outlaw.
He had a red bandana.
You discard the outlaw's remaining useless equipment.
He had 482 silvers on him.
You gather the remaining 482 coins.
He had nothing else of value.
A dwarven outlaw decays into compost.
>loot
You search the half-krolvin marauder.
He had a red neckerchief.
You discard the marauder's remaining useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing of interest.
A half-krolvin marauder decays into compost.
>stand