help with rogue

[p. r e d d y]

i plan on hiding and ambushing with either twc or thw. right now my training path is

Armor x2 (until brig)
OHE x2
TWC x2
CM x1
Ambush x2
disarm x3
picking x3
hide x2
perception x2
dodge x2

right now i can't tripple picking/disarm like i want to because of all the tps doubling armor costs. but at level 15 i'll drop armor until its 1x. which should let me bring my picking and disarming up to 3x. i'm wondering about spells though. should i drop to an overall 2x picking/disarming to get 401-404? are there other spells worth while and viable i should be looking at?
do my stats look ok? suggestions welcome.


this is at level 8 btw. Half-krolvin

Stats: Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 87 (28) ... 87 (28)
Constitution (CON): 69 (19) ... 69 (19)
Dexterity (DEX): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)
Agility (AGL): 84 (22) ... 84 (22)
Discipline (DIS): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)
Aura (AUR): 62 (6) ... 62 (6)
Logic (LOG): 82 (6) ... 82 (6)
Intuition (INT): 64 (7) ... 64 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 32 (-14) ... 32 (-14)
Influence (INF): 34 (-13) ... 34 (-13)

[Mtenda]

Eventually you will want to be 2.5x or better with lores. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about spells for a long long time.

Wisdom is way too low.

[The Ponzzz]

Yeah, I know HKs are horrible for LOG, but drop LOG a little and put something more into WIS. That's going to hurt bad. You want to be at the very least at 0 for bonus.

As for your actual skills, TWC is a very physically demanding training path TP wise, to be a really great locksmith. You might want to be 1.5x TWC.

[p. r e d d y]

well twc and ohe together are cheaper than 2x thw.

[p. r e d d y]

influence is next to useless for rogues isn't it?

[DoctorUnne]

That looks pretty good to me. Try to squeeze 5 ranks of MOC in there at some point, as well as a bit of harness power if you join Sunfist or CoL.

Nothing's going to hit you hard enough where you need to be in heavy armor before 30 anyway. So I'd just 1x all the way.

[The Ponzzz]

Fro now. INF will govern a lot of mentalist spells for offensive and possibly defensive. THW for a rogue is very hard. I was just saying that if you are going to be a heavy locksmith build, TWC is hard to keep up at full 2x. 1.5x is a good starting point until you get more TPs per level.

[p. r e d d y]

well i have a set of 4x brig (maybe 5x i don't remember) to replace this 2x double. something has me doubting that the double will last me til level 30.




i don't really have a problem 2x twc.
i suppose however that if i dropped to 1.5x i'd save some points for MOC. i'm not sure how important moc will be when i'm ambushing eyes.



Race: Half-Krolvin Profession: Rogue
Level: 8 Gender: Male Age: (Select your age)

Experience:
Experience: 89333 Next level at: 92500 exp.
Exp. until next lvl: 3167
Fame: 47432 Deeds: 0 Deaths this level: 4
Your mind is becoming numbed.

Wealth:
Silvers: 0 coins

Skills:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 90 20
Armor Use..........................| 90 20
Combat Maneuvers...................| 50 10
Edged Weapons......................| 90 20
Ambush.............................| 90 20
Physical Fitness...................| 50 10
Dodging............................| 90 20
Survival...........................| 25 5
Disarming Traps....................| 82 18
Picking Locks......................| 82 18
Stalking and Hiding................| 82 18
Perception.........................| 82 18
Training Points: 0 Phy 11 Mnt (62 Mnt converted to Phy)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

[Lord Orbstar]

I was 1.9x on my TWC at level 56. You do not need to be a full 2x, but you dont want to gut your second weapon with 1.5x. triple lockpicking, TWC and spells...not gonna happen. If you want to pick your own stuff and like level, then go 2x and get up to 404. no problem. I wouldnt worry about spells until a few levels. with that wisdom though, i would re-roll and consider stat growth a little more carefully. As a TWC guy, you will want heavy armor, so keep up the armor training and get in AsG17 as soon as you can.

[NocturnalRob]

You're a rogue. Set your stats to optimize at 100 (if you want to play to cap) or 50 or 80 or whatever your personal end-game happens to be. As a HK, I would drop my dex and agi down to the low 60s and my str down to the mid-to-low 70s and rework your other stats. Wisdom needs to be much higher. Inf...meh, my rogue is a dark elf, so inf is basically a lost cause.

[p. r e d d y]

I was 1.9x on my TWC at level 56. You do not need to be a full 2x, but you dont want to gut your second weapon with 1.5x. triple lockpicking, TWC and spells...not gonna happen. If you want to pick your own stuff and like level, then go 2x and get up to 404. no problem. I wouldnt worry about spells until a few levels. with that wisdom though, i would re-roll and consider stat growth a little more carefully. As a TWC guy, you will want heavy armor, so keep up the armor training and get in AsG17 as soon as you can.

what armor do you think i should be shooting at? i intend to swing twc at ~4 sec with shortswords or daggers and figured my hiding would be my defense. is this not viable?

[Donquix]

what armor do you think i should be shooting at? i intend to swing twc at ~4 sec with shortswords or daggers and figured my hiding would be my defense. is this not viable?

Hiding does help quite a bit, but you will get caught eventually and need to be prepared for it.

I'm a fan of metal breastplate for rogues, not sure what others suggest.

[Gan]

I'd recommend MBP if you plan on swinging out in the open.

[p. r e d d y]

how many armor ranks do i need for that?

i don't plan to attack from the open.


how do these stats look?


Level 0 25 50 75 100
(CON)Constitution50 62 75 84 92
(STR) Strength 66 78 88 97 100
(DEX) Dexterity 66 78 87 96 100
(AGL) Agility 60 74 87 99 100
(DIS) Discipline 75 83 89 95 100
(AUR) Aura 85 89 93 96 100
(LOG) Logic 85 91 96 100 100
(INT) Intuition 64 76 84 93 100
(WIS)Wisdom 89 92 95 98 100
(INF) Influence 20 35 45 53 60

[Gan]

80 ranks for mbp

If you plan on being out in the open while in RT from an ambush/attack then you're going to get tagged eventually. And from what I can remember, TWC has some significant RT.

My rogue wears hcp brig; however, he shoots arrows from the shadows, so hiding is his primary DS.

[DoctorUnne]

If you want to try the whole light armor and stealth build thing, you need to go all out in my opinion or you will find yourself getting waxed regularly.

That means brig, rank 5 shadow mastery, rank 5 evade mastery, 3x dodge, 2x or better hiding, and continue to train in armor so you can learn armor stealth at rank 5.

[Lord Orbstar]

AsG 17 for sure.

[DaCapn]

At level 8, there's not a whole lot of room for variation. If you want to know about the various armor training points, see this page:
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use

Armor-wise I recommend:
- 1.5x+ for non-casting rogues (shooting for MBP or full plate). Just be in the highest you can handle. Train up to chain shirt then fixskill into the hauberk/MBP range.
- Augmented chain for higher level casting rogues (90 ranks is exactly tier 3 armor specialization)
- If you're a non-locksmith caster you may be able to afford hauberk, but it's still a large expense over aug chain

Personally, I feel like 410 is almost mandatory however you plan to get it. Archery is obviously the best combination with picking. THW doesn't leave room for training in picking and sword/board isn't as good as archery in general.

In my experience, for a sniping, ewaving, 2x lockpicking rogue: tier 2 armored stealth + 2.5x hide + 5 ranks smastery + 3 ranks evasion mastery + HCP brig is not as good as a tier 3 armored evasion + 2x hide + 5 ranks smastery + plain 4x hauberk build.

[Endlin]

You'll also need 90 ranks of armor as a krolvin for MBP.

[DaCapn]

You'll also need 90 ranks of armor as a krolvin for MBP.

Not sure what you're trying to say, but 90 ranks would be a good idea if you're already at 80 for MBP because you can get the 3rd tier of an armor specialization. That has nothing to do with krolvins, though.

[Endlin]

I'm not smart enough to break the math down but it has to do with agility and dexterity. You can't dodge shit even with those two stats maxed and 80 ranks wearing MBP as a krolvin.

[Gan]

Personally, I feel like 410 is almost mandatory however you plan to get it. Archery is obviously the best combination with picking. THW doesn't leave room for training in picking and sword/board isn't as good as archery in general.

In my experience, for a sniping, ewaving, 2x lockpicking rogue:

tier 2 armored stealth + 2.5x hide + 5 ranks smastery + 3 ranks evasion mastery + HCP brig is not as good as:
a tier 3 armored evasion + 2x hide + 5 ranks smastery + plain 4x hauberk build.I'd rather have the additional crit padding, 7% MnE hindrance (compared to 12% with hauberk), and the extra points not used for hauberk armor training, ie.: your tier 2 example... In fact, thats how my rogue rolls.

Just saying... :shrug:

[DaCapn]

I'm not smart enough to break the math down but it has to do with agility and dexterity. You can't dodge shit even with those two stats maxed and 80 ranks wearing MBP as a krolvin.

Once you achieve 80 ranks of armor use, your action penalty applied to "maneuvers" in MBP is -20. That is independent of race and statistics. If agility and/or dexterity play a roll in successfully defending against (or performing) the "maneuver," it's a separate issue.


I'd rather have the additional crit padding, 7% MnE hindrance (compared to 12% with hauberk), and the extra points not used for hauberk armor training, ie.: your tier 2 example... In fact, thats how my rogue rolls.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, the number-crunching information about crits is a bit scattered. Here's what I'm under the impression is true:

( raw damage - crit padding points ) / crit divisor = crit rank

So with raw damage of 50 and assuming HCP is 10 points of padding, with the crit divisors of scale and chain being 7 and 9 respectively we have:

HCP Brig: (50 - 10) / 7 = 5.714 = Rank 5 critical
Hauberk: (50 - 0) / 9 = 5.556 = Rank 5 critical

According to what I think is correct, once you hit 31 raw damage, the crit ranking will be equal (from the wearer's perspective) if you're in plain hauberk. Further, plain hauberk becomes better once you reach 59 raw damage. Also, there's the fact that you're probably going to be hit with more raw damage if you're in brig rather than hauberk due to the way DF typically scales across weapon bases.

I recall a post made by Stunseed (I think) which essentially stated that HCP full-coverage armor will be worse than normal full-coverage armor of the next armor group up.

Of course this only speaks to the crit reduction aspect.

[StrayRogue]

I recall a post made by Stunseed (I think) which essentially stated that HCP full-coverage armor will be worse than normal full-coverage armor of the next armor group up.

Of course this only speaks to the crit reduction aspect.

Correct.

[Gan]

Once you achieve 80 ranks of armor use, your action penalty applied to "maneuvers" in MBP is -20. That is independent of race and statistics. If agility and/or dexterity play a roll in successfully defending against (or performing) the "maneuver," it's a separate issue.



Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, the number-crunching information about crits is a bit scattered. Here's what I'm under the impression is true:

( raw damage - crit padding points ) / crit divisor = crit rank

So with raw damage of 50 and assuming HCP is 10 points of padding, with the crit divisors of scale and chain being 7 and 9 respectively we have:

HCP Brig: (50 - 10) / 7 = 5.714 = Rank 5 critical
Hauberk: (50 - 0) / 9 = 5.556 = Rank 5 critical

According to what I think is correct, once you hit 31 raw damage, the crit ranking will be equal (from the wearer's perspective) if you're in plain hauberk. Further, plain hauberk becomes better once you reach 59 raw damage. Also, there's the fact that you're probably going to be hit with more raw damage if you're in brig rather than hauberk due to the way DF typically scales across weapon bases.

I recall a post made by Stunseed (I think) which essentially stated that HCP full-coverage armor will be worse than normal full-coverage armor of the next armor group up.

Of course this only speaks to the crit reduction aspect.

Minimum ranks to train physical hindrance:
Brig - 30 ranks (You'll need 35 ranks to cast ewave effectively in combat)
Hauberk - 80 ranks (You'll need 130 ranks in order to cast ewave effectively in combat).

Armor training cost: 5/0 ptp/mtp

At a minimum you'll save 250 physical training points that you can put elsewhere in your training.

That being said, armor use is chiefly determined by your hunting style/build.

If you're an archer and your attack is done from hiding - then lighter/padded armor is the natural choice. Hiding and remaining hidden should be your focus. The points saved in less armor training can be used for the hiding focus. The crit padding allows for recovery if/when you're caught out of hiding.

If you're going to be toe to toe fighting or at the very least in RT recovery in the open, then you'll want heavier armor. When my rogue was sword/board, his armor was MBP and he could take hit after hit of physical attacks with very little consequence.

My decision to move to archery was that the hunting areas where he's at now (OTF) have casters with insanely high CS and area effects such as spellburst which prevent tanking spells. Not to mention that trying to cast ewave in plate armor is like trying to make a pig fly.

So adapt your build to what you plan on hunting over the next year. Then revisit your goal each May when the fixskills come out.


http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use

[DaCapn]

Yeah, definitely a lot of trade-offs and personal preferences.

Another interesting note is that at 140 ranks of AU, you minimize hauberk MnE penalty (130 AU), reach tier 1 armor overtraining for hauberk (120 AU) reducing the AP form -18 to -15, get tier 4 armor evasion (140 AU) for decreasing AP by 6 for chain, and it also allows for swapping into full plate (140 AU) if you are going to be doing more toe-to-toe hunting where you don't need 410. This would drop your hauberk AP from -18 to -9 which a change from 50% above brig to 25% below brig (between cuirb & studded leather). So I really think the cap-goals are pretty clear until we start seeing armor penalties to hiding.

That being said, I'm currently migrating back into the brig setup to give it another shot. I guess if I had HCP aug chain I might consider dipping down into there instead since it's a good mark with the tier 3 armor specialization threshold at 90 AU.

I guess this is all pretty moot for someone asking for advice about their level 8 character.

[rrbird]

Do any high level rogues even use TWC? I used it for a while but once you can one shot kill anything by ambushing the head it becomes a huge waste of points in my opinion. I can see its use at lower levels plinking away at hp's until you can consistently crit kill, but after that, whats the point?

[Gan]

I just used the last of my premium points to upgrade a set of 5x brig to hcp status. Put the fgb on my cleric. All is well with the world.

[DaCapn]

Do any high level rogues even use TWC? I used it for a while but once you can one shot kill anything by ambushing the head it becomes a huge waste of points in my opinion. I can see its use at lower levels plinking away at hp's until you can consistently crit kill, but after that, whats the point?

My alt rogue was a TWC/OHE build. I fixskilled into a THW ewaver (at level 32 I think). I saw a HUGE improvement. You don't know what one-shotting is until you ambush with a maul. TWC is 12/9 to 2x with OHE, THW is 18/6 to 2x. If you're converting a good number of PTP to MTP (as you would be by taking 410) it's the same cost.

I certainly think that there are more powerful training styles than TWC rogue but there's also certainly people who don't care and just want to use a certain style (RP, changing it up, etc).

[DoctorUnne]

Do any high level rogues even use TWC? I used it for a while but once you can one shot kill anything by ambushing the head it becomes a huge waste of points in my opinion. I can see its use at lower levels plinking away at hp's until you can consistently crit kill, but after that, whats the point?

I'm 59 and I use TWC.

I also 2x hide and 2x ambush. I may not be the fastest killer or the most efficient killer TP-wise, but I have yet to come across a monster I can't kill in one shot unless I miss an ambush or get bad rolls. Take lesser ice elementals for example, which are usually a bitch to kill for rogues. I one-shot them more often than not with a focused mstrike with two fire-flaring axes.

The trick I think to being TWC is getting a lot of MOC and using dual-flaring weapons. Sabre-tooth tigers have 400 HP and I kill them from blood loss the vast majority of the time I don't crit them with one focused mstrike with two axes. They are extremely hard to hide on, so this is preferable than trying to ambush them. I get an average of two flares with every mstrike.

Granted if it's something that can be ambushed easily then yes a dagger will do the trick, but TWC is still helpful on the times when your first swing is EBP'ed or you miss the body part. If the first swing is EBP'ed then the second swing will also go for the head (or eye or neck), and if the first swing hits another body part then the second swing has a lower DS to overcome because the monster is usually stunned or knocked down.

I think it's just whatever you like the best. Ambushing with a dagger works too, but I don't think TWC even at high levels is something inferior mechanically that you only do for RP purposes, like say using a scimitar.

[p. r e d d y]

i'm level 11 now thank you :P

[StrayRogue]

Blades TWC's. Has done for years.