Is Time Travel Possible?

[Ooga Chaka]

I remember in 11th grade i had a paper due the next day in my physics class. So i stayed up all night paraphrasing some Stephen Hawking, Universe in a Nutshell (yeah, i know, shame on me for plagarism). I was surprised by how much i understood of his explaination of why time travel may indeed be possible, though what i learned hardly stuck. So what i wanna know (after seeing a couple other posts with people actually knowing what they're talking about regarding physics) is if anyone thinks that time travel is possible, and if you know what the hell you're talking about...back it up. (knowing what you're talking about thoroughly excludes you BOB, so don't post please) :lol:

[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Ooga Chaka]

[Hulkein]

I do not believe it is possible (back in time at least) because if it was then someone would've gone back in time by now and ruined everything. I base this on nothing but logic, ask someone with a physics degree for the x's and o's =)

[Jenisi]

Or that we are all killed off before we learn how to accomplish it :) I'm not trying to be all "deathy" on ya, just raising a point.

[Latrinsorm]

I read something that a guy was trying to set up some deal with lasers and stuff so that he'd have a point that existed at multiple times simultaneously. I forget how exactly he was doing this, but it wouldn't allow travel through time backwards (from our perspective) you could only go in and out of that specific portal. So we could go in the future (if he left it on) and probably come back and stuff, but no dinosaurs.

[Mint]

Actually, I thought Hawkings came up with a theory about why time travel was NOT possible in 'Universe in a Nutshell'.

[Mint]

He named the theory: Chronology Protection Conjecture

[HarmNone]

Perhaps Edward Witten will finish his work on superstring theory within our lifetimes. If so, the answers to questions like this may lie almost within our grasp. :)

HarmNone

[Meos]

The question is should we travel time even if it was possible..... I don't think humans have any business traveling time. You think we're good at fucking shit up now... wait till someone starts jumping around in time.... ever seen that simpsons episode where Homer fixes the toaster and unknowingly turns it into a time machine.....

/end si-fi rant

[Nakiro]

Time travel isn't possible because time is not linear.

[Ooga Chaka]

lol Mint, if you're right about what Hawkings said in Universe in a nutshell, i got an A using his writings completely out of context or something...or my teacher didn't understand enough to point out to me that i was defending the wrong idea while saying that it was possible. If that's the case...oops!

(edited because i'm talking about Hawkings...not Hakings)
Time is not linear, explain how that makes time travel impossible?

[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Ooga Chaka]

[Mint]

Heh, that sounds like a good 'oops' to me.

edited to add: of course I could have his theory completely backwards.


[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Mint]

[Wezas]

Sure it's possible, but who wants to pay that much for a 20+ year old car?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31830&item=2461967 454

[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Wezas]

[Ooga Chaka]

Come to think of it, i don't remember the exact wording, but i do remember in Universe in a Nutshell, Hawkings using the example of tiny particles coming to a pourous wall(or whatever) and making the choice of which hole to go through. Maybe he was quoting someone and was about to disprove this, i was young and could remember wrong, but what i remember is him saying that instead of the choice being made, alternate universes are created, one for each possible choice and in each universe, the future moves accordingly to that choice. Basically that everytime something COULD have gone differently, new universes(maybe dimensions is a better term?) are created to account for every possibility, and he says that somewhere there is a universe where the south won the civil war, for example and so on and so forth. And that it's because of this that time travel MIGHT be possible. His basic idea was that we could tap into one of these other dimensions and move into it, and could thereby avoid the grandmother paradox (a man goes back in time and kills his grandmother, so he was never born. Therefore his grandmother was never killed. so she's never killed, so he's born and she is killed, so he's never born, etc. etc. etc.) This would be avoided because by travelling back in time, the man would enter an alternate universe, where he did indeed kill his grandmother, and thereby prevent his alternate self from being born. while back at home his grandmother is alive and well and everyone is wondering where this guy dissappeared to.

Oh well, as i said, my memory is vague, and next time maybe i'll read up before posting so i can make a more informed arguement. In the mean time, keep posting, i'm working on my time machine.

P.S. Meos, i guess the question really is, wouldn't we want to be damn careful about who was selected to go back in time if we could. And if they did go back in time...would anything they did effect us? or would it only impact some alternate universe...created upon his travel back in time? Damn that Hawkings is a strange fellow.

[Mint]

Actually he did not say that time travel was impossible. I was misinformed. It happens once a year or so. Heh. His theory had more to do with us not being able to take advantage of time travel or something. God I am tired.

The following is taken from: http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit6/ttravel.html

Hawking's "Chronology Protection Conjecture"
As a way to avoid the obvious absurdity of the Grandfather paradox, Stephen Hawking has proposed the "Chronology Protection Conjecture":

The laws of General Relativity permit the construction of classical time machines (e.g., wormholes using exotic matter)

However, the laws of Quantum Gravity forbid the construction of such time machines (quantum fluctuations circulate through & destroy them)

It thus "keeps the world safe for historians"
In other words, the appearance of the Grandfather paradox in classical General Relativity gives us a hint as to one of the properties a Quantum Theory of Gravity might have. Since we do not yet have such a theory, having such hints is most useful.

edited to add the link where the quote comes from.


[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Mint]

[Ooga Chaka]

LOL, Mint you're awesome, though i hardly know you. I just realized how my other post in the thread about evolution talks about other universes as well. Anywho since my last post in this thread went up 9 minutes before your last, i thought ya may have missed what i said about the grandmother paradox, which may well be the grandfather paradox, who knows, it's late. Anyway, i appreciate your responses in both threads.

I think that Hawkings does go on to explain how we could actually use wormholes, theoretically of course, except that to travel through them would destroy them leaving the traveller dead or morooned. Bah, i'm not sure anymore, i think i'll dig up my Universe in a Nutshell, and start reading again...maybe tomorrow.
Bed time for now.

(edited for missing words...my mind goes faster than my fingers)

[Edited on 2-27-2004 by Ooga Chaka]

[Mint]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
LOL, Mint you're awesome, though i hardly know you.

I love being 'awesome' when I am wrong . Sweet dreams.
:grin:

[Ooga Chaka]

WOOHOO, I love that link, thanks Mint. All you others, check out Mint's link. Awesome!

[Caiylania]

Time travel is not possible, the past is the past.

And even if it was, if you tried it, you would die.

The planet travels millions of miles through space everyday and is itsself never in the same spot twice as our whole solar system is moving.

So if you were standing in Spot X. And traveled back even an hour..... You would end up in space, in the location Earth will be at the time you went back, and die.

So not only would time travel have to be invented (which I believe to not be possible at all) You would literally have to do it in a space ship :P

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Caiylania
Time travel is not possible, the past is the past.

And even if it was, if you tried it, you would die.

Well damn, if that's true it was mean of you to throw logic into it.

My only response is: How does religion explain dinosaur bones?

[longshot]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Time travel isn't possible because time is not linear.

Yes, we know.

Kentucky is 15 minutes slower than everywhere else.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Caiylania
Time travel is not possible, the past is the past.

And even if it was, if you tried it, you would die.

Well damn, if that's true it was mean of you to throw logic into it.

My only response is: How does religion explain dinosaur bones?

Yet another reason I'm more and more turning away from the Bible.

It doesn't. It starts and ends with humans. Humans are a friggin FOOTNOTE in Earth's history.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania
The planet travels millions of miles through space everyday and is itsself never in the same spot twice as our whole solar system is moving.Or we could make something that creates a portal through space and time simultaneously. :D

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Or we could make something that creates a portal through space and time simultaneously. :D

Can I have wormholes for $200, Alex.

http://library.thinkquest.org/2890/worhol.htm

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
but what i remember is him saying that instead of the choice being made, alternate universes are created, one for each possible choice and in each universe, the future moves accordingly to that choice. Basically that everytime something COULD have gone differently, new universes(maybe dimensions is a better term?) are created to account for every possibility, and he says that somewhere there is a universe where the south won the civil war, for example and so on and so forth.

If this were true there would be an infinite number of alternate universes. Something can be different at EVERY point in time and EVERY point in the universe.

[Caiylania]

That is just..... IMO silly. That would make humans a form of God because we would be making WHOLE new dimensions and worlds because this morning I turned right instead of left. Or because someone did or didn't do anything :P

[Ooga Chaka]

Exactly. I'm not saying I stand behind this theory, and in reality i see that it is quite off the wall. However, I suggest you be careful of what you rule out under the assumption that we have the ability to discern what may and may not be the way things really are, based simply on our extremely limited understanding of just what existance itself really is/entails.

You are right though, that if this were the case, there would be an infinite number of parellels, seeing as how once one (theoretically) is created, that infinite parellels would be spawned from that one alone. Be aware that while this theory does seem silly, the ideas that the Earth was round, and that we were not the center of the universe also seemed silly at one point in time. These were both just observations made by a primitive culture, based on a limited perspective of reality. Granted, our perspective has increased tremendously, we are still VERY far from any simblance of a firm understanding of the way this universe exists and operates.

Regarding the comment that the creation of said universes upon the introduction of any given choice would essential make humans like gods, it is my personal opinion that if a God of any sort exists, then we are all essentially the essence of God, as well as our T.V.s, the water in the ocean, the hair on our heads and the comets hurling through space. Ram Dass refers to watching his sister pouring milk into a glass, and for some reason all he can see is God pouring God into God. So IMO, we can't escape doing the will of God, since we exist wholey in and of it/him/her.

Oh well, off to see if anyone responded to my other posts. Have fun!

[Testosterone]

Who gives a fuck? Is this possible, is that possible?

Is it possible you could shut up?

[Artha]

Maybe time travel was already discovered, but we fucked things up, so someone went back in time and killed the guy who discovered time travel.

...wierd.

[Edited on 2-28-2004 by Artha]

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Caiylania
That is just..... IMO silly. That would make humans a form of God because we would be making WHOLE new dimensions and worlds because this morning I turned right instead of left. Or because someone did or didn't do anything :P

Why must us humans be so vain to think that WE would be the cause of a WHOLE new universe? If this theory were true, EVERYTHING in EVERY universe would be the cause of a whole new universe. There would even be an inifite number of universes just by the poissiblity of a single atom to move in an infinite number of directions in just 1 picometer ^-99999999999999999999999.

[Edited on 2-28-2004 by Jonty]

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
Exactly. I'm not saying I stand behind this theory, and in reality i see that it is quite off the wall. However, I suggest you be careful of what you rule out under the assumption that we have the ability to discern what may and may not be the way things really are, based simply on our extremely limited understanding of just what existance itself really is/entails.


I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the theory. I was just pointing out that the magnitude of parallel univerese would be initine. The way you worded it suggested a small number, ie(the south won the Civil War).

And in reference to time travel, it'd still be impossible. Say that we were able to figure out how to travel to an alternate universe. How the hell would be navaigate to a specific universe given the infinite number of univiverse created every pico second?

[Xcalibur]

I think nothing is impossible.

Nothing.

So, it does exists, in some way.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Testosterone
Who gives a fuck? Is this possible, is that possible?

Is it possible you could shut up?


Ooga Chaka, please ignore Testy. She is extremely touchy whenever anyone shows signs of intelligence that surpass her own (which is often I might add) or when she cannot think of anything intelligent to add to an interesting thread such as this one she feels the need to run it down instead. Please ignore her.

[GSLeloo]

I believe anything is possible. If we look back in times things such as cloning were just a dream to write fiction stories about. Now we can do it. Sometimes you really have to wonder how concrete reality really is and what exactly time is. I think that it could be possible and if it is then one day someone will pull it off.

[Kefka]

Do time travel exist? I don't know. I see time as alternate dimensions where every choice creates another dimension. A line where we say yes and a line where we say no. In my 28 years of life, I'm sure there's billions of different dimensions where in some of those dimensions, I'm already dead for making that stupid choice, or maybe rich for taking that leap of faith and lucking out. Even when you play lotto, you probably opened dozens of different dimensions in which you've won in one of those dimensions.

Closest way to describe it is in the movie Matrix Reloaded when Neo's talking to the Architect. The scene where he's looking at the screen with all those different Neos. Those can be different dimensions, each response, each reaction. Everything we do, every way we react will open another dimension where we didn't do that or we reacted another way.

So going back to the question at hand, if we did have a time machine and used it, it won't affect the dimension we're already in. It will be a new dimension where the world will be based on whatever you changed. If you were to go back and kill my father, it won't affect me here because that time has already passed. I wouldn't be posting this right now otherwise. I just wouldn't exist in that dimension that you've influenced.

[peam]

No.

[Mint]

I would like to know, if time travel WERE possible who would go back to do what. I would love to go back to last night and tell my past self to avoid eating at the restaurant my friend chose because what I ate made me sick. Still queasy.

Oh and yeah, I would go back and pick some winning lottery numbers of course.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
Ram Dass refers to watching his sister pouring milk into a glass, and for some reason all he can see is God pouring God into God. I've never heard of the guy, but can we say pothead? Jeez, a lot of kids at my high school said the same kind of stuff when they were high.

If we have infinite (more or less) dimensions, it's possible that life didn't form on earth until much later in a different dimension, thus we could kinda sorta travel through time. Like Jonty said, it's not just human choices that affect things, there are plenty of random elements in the universe to take care of it.

[Ooga Chaka]

Ram Dass is a Dr. who got really heavily into LSD, and it made him question his perception of reality. (see "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Tests, Be Here Now, The only Dance There is" ) He tried to conduct tests with it, i believe in the 60's, to find out just what was going on when he took it. Eventually he made his way to the east, where he met the maharaji, someone who eventually came to be his "guru".

So, yeah, he was probably a pot head as well. But that doesn't change the fact that he's right. So long as you believe that some God created this universe, and all things that it consists of, then you must acknowledge that we are all created of his essence. If nothing existed but him/her/it and suddenly, POW other things existed, whatever it is that exists must have come from that source. Therefore we are all essentially God, while obviously we have our own minds and thought patterns, those too would not exist if not for this divine creator. Think about that for a while and let it set in. Is there anyway that could not be the truth, provided you believe in a higher power of any kind?

Mint: What I would do if I could go back in time. I'd want to take a laser pointer or some sort of crazy cutting edge technology back to various times and fuck with people. WOOHOO!

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by Ooga Chaka]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
If nothing existed but him/her/it and suddenly, POW other things existed, whatever it is that exists must have come from that source. Therefore we are all essentially God, while obviously we have our own minds and thought patterns, those too would not exist if not for this divine creator. Think about that for a while and let it set in. Is there anyway that could not be the truth, provided you believe in a higher power of any kind?I believe in an omnipotent God, and as such I think it's inherently wrong to limit God in any way. Therefore this statement "whatever it is that exists must have come from that source." is unacceptable. Why could God not create something that had nothing to do with Himself? He is, after all, omnipotent. The logical problems get a little sticky because of our inability to grasp infinity, but I think we're better off not limiting God in our theories.

[Ooga Chaka]

Hmmm, Internet went down for a while. Don't mean to bump a dead topic but how can you say God created something, then in the same sentence say it's something that has nothing to do with him?

I do not believe in a God, or anything of a Higher Power. I do however believe something is much more powerful than us, not to say its an alien, but perhaps something we can not see...

As for time travel, I don't think its possible to STAY in the past if done. I mean, everything is a bit touchy when you go faster than the speed of light. And in order to time trvael into the past, you would havta have a very small mass, I do believe.

But going ahead in time does seem possible in time(pun!)

[TheEschaton]

but what i remember is him saying that instead of the choice being made, alternate universes are created, one for each possible choice and in each universe, the future moves accordingly to that choice. Basically that everytime something COULD have gone differently, new universes(maybe dimensions is a better term?) are created to account for every possibility, and he says that somewhere there is a universe where the south won the civil war, for example and so on and so forth.

This is just Heidegger (or the Matrix Reloaded) in physics-speak. Very interesting, very what-what.

Stephen King also wrote the Dark Tower series based on this concept, with the Dark Tower being the nexus of all wheres and whens. I like it.

As for the space thing, most physicists agree that time and space can really only be spoken of together, as time-space. What we know is that time-space is bent, and, theoretically, if time-space bends enough, one should be able to step across to another time-space.

Theoretically, that's nice, but in reality, what happens is the event horizon is passed, and time-space implodes into what we call a black hole, where time-space is infinitely folded in on itself. In a black hole, it is every moment, and every place.

The above, of course, only applies to travel in this reality, and not for Hawking's theories.

-TheE-

[Xcalibur]

I don't believe in the paradoxal ( the other side of the mirror) theories

There would be billion of billion of billion of billion of billion of billion of parallele universes which is totaly impossible if you go with the science's philosophy that goes like: Nothing is lost, nothing is created, all's transforming.

[Edited on 11-3-04 by Xcalibur]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ooga Chaka
Hmmm, Internet went down for a while. Don't mean to bump a dead topic but how can you say God created something, then in the same sentence say it's something that has nothing to do with him? God works in mysterious ways. What I meant was God can do anything, this is the definition of "omnipotence". Thus, he can cause something to exist with no connection to himself. If every statement that starts with "God cannot" is false, every statement that starts with "God can" is true.

[Fengus]

Its not possible within our universe or we would have evidence of it already, or in fact be able to time travel right now. The basis of this is that backward travel would be the most obvious use, and there is no way that humans could somehow control the technology to prevent misuse.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Fengus
and there is no way that humans could somehow control the technology to prevent misuse.Who's to say that we would make it? We know cats are hiding something. Why not time travel?

p.s: Yes, I'm joking. It's the jellyfish.

[Madmox]

Ok now its my turn to throw my 2 cents in. It been proven possible to move forward in time in a sense. The faster you move the slower time moves with respect to you. ( this has been proved with atomic clocks and satellites) For instance if you were in space and traveling at a speed increasing toward the speed of light time would move slower with respect to you. Of course the problem with this is that as you approach the speed of light your mass begins to become infinite hence at least one problem. None the less So therefore if you then turned around and came back you would not have aged while everything else around you has. Welcome to the general theory of relativity! Further more it has been proven that light really can bend in the vicinity of high amounts of gravity (i.ei around planets or even more apparent black holes that pull even light in.) which means that space can be bent with enough gravity. So if there was enough gravity in one spot space could be bent enough that a "vessel"could move a minute amount then release the gravity well and be in a much different place. If your having trouble following do this: take a piece of paper and draw spaceship on one edge. Then an "A" next to it. On the opposite edge put a "B". Then slowly move the edges together. Its should give you sort of a raindrop shape. in THe middle of the hole would have to be the gravity well. but look how much less space there is between point A and B. much less distance than traveling the full distance of the paper. then pull the two edges apart. simulating the gravity being "Released" and there you have it.

Of course i once heard the quote. "If time travel was possible why arn't there fururistic tourists wandering around?"
So i say forward but not backward. Backwards leads to causualty violations which are never good.

-Colin

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Madmox
...proven...
-Colin

I'll have to debate your use of proven, as far as I know we haven't quite gotten any craft space or otherwise at even a modest fraction along the way towards speed of light. So now whether approaching the speed of light is possible is one question, the effects of that speed are only theorized.

As with gravity wells, black holes and that whole field of unknowns, its all just theory.

[imported_Kranar]

As Madmox has stated, it is a proven fact.

Experiments whereby one atomic clock is placed ontop of a mountain where gravity is weaker, and another atomic clock placed on surface level have proven that gravity warps time.

Experiments whereby satellites carrying atomic clocks compared to atomic clocks on the earth have proven that increased velocity dialates time.

[Madmox]

The other way it has been proven is by putting an atomic clock on a satellite and sent it rocketing around the earth. And after a while they began to notice slight descrepencies between the two clocks. On yeah and there is some new experiment that are doing having something to do with gyroscopes and Lasers on satelites and testing to see if space is infact curved. I guess well see.

-Colin