Overtraining in armor

[Mateius]

Can someone, in layman's terms, explain the benefits of overtraining in armor to reduce action penalties?

I understand that 50 ranks above your current armor reduced the AP to the asg class below you, but what does that really do for you?

[Dhuul]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use#Overtraining_Benefits

[Dhuul]

Action Penalty documentation from play.net


The action penalty is a percentile subtracted
from your chance to perform a maneuver roll.

A maneuver may include anything from dodging
elemental wave (often referred to as ewave) and
boil earth attacks, to something as mundane as
standing up.

[Mateius]

So depending on type of armor, you get so much of a failure rate?

[Mateius]

damn. Is 50 ranks of armor TP worth the benefit of getting the AP of the classes below what you're currently wearing?

[Donquix]

maneuvers are a big deal, so i'd say it's worth it. It's a post cap goal for me, or at least not something i would pick up right away. After i get my 140 to the base maneuver penalty of full plate i'm done for a long time.

Of course i double MoC, which puts quite a bit of strain on points. YMMV

[Mateius]

Is 2x MoC worth the benefit? My plan was to get to 55 ranks and stopping. I'd like to know what i might be missing out on.

[Loyrl]

I like it, having a 5 strike focused attack is pretty nice. It just depends on what you want your character to be.

[bluesmith]

If you're swing a slow two-hander or aren't too strong in the AGI/DEX department then tons of MOC doesn't make much sense (unless you want force-on-force reduction if you're dealing with serious mob numbers). I have 55 ranks and am quite happy. If you were a brawler, swinging two weapons or an inherently faster race, then I think there could be advantages to training higher.

I think someone posted earlier that it's really hard to gauge the benefit from overtraining in Armor Use, but that it's probably something to do post-cap only. I think the visible benefit was something like +4DS in open stance, but I suppose the unseen maneuver benefit could be more significant in the long run.

[Bhuryn]

The RT on MoC is capped now at like 3 strikes, so having a ton of MoC with a low AGIDEX or slow two hander isn't as big of a deal now.

[bluesmith]

The RT on MoC is capped now at like 3 strikes

Whoa. Really!??! Time to change my build if that's the case.

[Bhuryn]

MoC should have been MS, but yes. My MS RT is never more then 9 with a morning star. They didn't come right out and say it's capped at three but I believe that is the conventional wisdom now.

[Donquix]

It's worth it for me but I have a different skillset than most :)

small weapon TWC. My max round time on a focused mstrike if i fully doubled MoC for life will still be 5 seconds.

I'm at 8 strikes in 5 now.

DEATH BY TOOTHPICK

edit: combat snippet. Not the most effective fighting style but it sure is fun. Note that this isn't the best example. As i'm currently using voln blessings, so no flares, this phantasma was wearing scale armor, the 2nd worst armor class for me next to plate, and they are non-corp so i can't get the really cheap knockdown/death crits from puncture weapons. I only selected it as I got the full 8 strikes, which is a bit rare.

>mstrike phant
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You thrust with a timeworn ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +332 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +88 = +291
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Weak attack slips silently through the phantasma's fingers, stirring the breeze.
You thrust with a weathered ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +330 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +26 = +227
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
You thrust with a timeworn ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +332 vs DS: +157 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +80 = +283
... and hit for 29 points of damage!
Light strike to the phantasma's head.
A wisp of vapor trickles earthward.
You thrust with a weathered ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +330 vs DS: +154 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +21 = +225
... and hit for 22 points of damage!
Quick strike rips right arm open!
To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.
You thrust with a timeworn ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +332 vs DS: +154 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +43 = +249
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Quick strike connects with the phantasma's lower back!
Luckily there was nothing vital there.
You thrust with a weathered ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +330 vs DS: +151 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +21 = +228
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Hard strike connects with the phantasma's back!
A thin arc of mist spews forth, evaporating quickly.
You thrust with a timeworn ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +332 vs DS: +151 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +66 = +275
... and hit for 27 points of damage!
Smoky tendrils rise from neck as your attack sweeps through.
You thrust with a weathered ebon steel sai at a phantasma!
AS: +330 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +100 = +310
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
Hard blow to the left hand sends fingers flying.
Alas, they reform soundlessly from thin air.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the phantasma's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The phantasma shrieks in terror for an instant, then begins to rapidly dissipate!
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a phantasma.
The deep blue glow leaves a phantasma.
The light blue glow leaves a phantasma.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[DoctorUnne]

It should be noted that while the RT is capped, the recovery time and I believe the stamina cost to mstrike again while still in recovery time both still increase with more strikes. That said, the RT is by far the most important part of the equation and having that capped is a huge bonus.

My mstrike RT for two handaxes is ten seconds, and by cap I'll have 8 focused swings or 12 unfocused swings.

Damn I wish rogues could 2x in MOC. I have to think a 2x MOC TWC warrior can kill pretty much anything in one shot with two flaring weapons.

[Donquix]

depends on the weapons, heh.

For me, most things I can mstrike (that aren't in plate) die in an mstrike now. If they survive it's typically a plain attack later for the kill.

I want 12 strikes, damn it.

I haven't a significant, if any, change in my recovery time since going up to 8 strikes. I'm guessing the formula takes weapon speed into account there somehow though. I can mstrike every mob i kill for the most part, and afford to mix in stamina penalty extra mstrikes when necesary (this is with feinting a lot, and knocking things down with twin hammerfists)

[DoctorUnne]

I'll be going from 4 unfocused to 5 unfocused soon and I'll try to remember to calculate my recovery time and stamina cost to repeat mstrike both before and after. Hopefully you're right and they're the same.

[Lumi]

Is mstrike recovery time based on weapon weight, or weapon speed?

Could I get my weapon lightened by a merchant and reduce the recovery time?

[Stunseed]

< I have to think a 2x MOC TWC warrior can kill pretty much anything in one shot with two flaring weapons. >

Pretty close. I'm bonded to a mechanical flaring morning-star, and in the offhand I have a double fire flaring morning-star. With rank 5 bond on the first star, I can focus mstrike and get 4 ( sometimes 5 ) swings of stars.

Berserk just makes it sexier.

[DoctorUnne]

Is mstrike recovery time based on weapon weight, or weapon speed?

Could I get my weapon lightened by a merchant and reduce the recovery time?

The formula on krakiipedia is only for mstrike RT (not recovery time) and it is based on weapon speed. I don't see any additional info on the website or forums so I'll make a post on the officials and ask.

[thefarmer]

It's the weapon base speed.

[Donquix]

I meant to say speed in my post. I tend to equate weight and speed in my head when talking about RT. Edited my last post to avoid any confusion.

[Bhuryn]

I thought it was just based on the weapon speed and PT training not the number of strikes.