THW/Newbie

[trancix]

New member here, trying out the paladin class and I donno whether or not if I should have started a new thread for this, but I'm curious about a THW paladin training plan?

With roughly 47 ptps and 42 mtps I'm having a hard time doing 1x spells with pretty much anything else.

So far at level 2 (super new) I have done 3x armor, 2x THW, 2x dodge, 1x cm, 1x PT and otherwise managed to get 2 pal spells, 1 harness, 1 climb, 1 swim and 1 perception.

At the last training I could barely afford the second spell. I wanted to go 3x armor for a while since I'll have lower DS without a shield and figured moving up to higher armor would mitigate that a bit.

Honestly I haven't played this game in 10 years though, and it's so different now. Any help, even in general, would be super appreciated.

[thefarmer]

2x armor, 2x thw, 1x dodge, 1x cm 1x pt, 1x paladin (until Beseech) is going to be your core.

If you can fit in other things, I'd suggest (in order of importance) Armor, PT, CM.

[trancix]

Just 1x dodge, really? Won't my DS suffer?

So I can wait on the general skills, like Swim/Climb/Perc/etc?

What about lores like blessing or religion? I realize for them to really pay off would take a long time, so I didn't know how early to start training. I left out I did get 1 blessing and 1 religion rank at first.

Also, if you don't mind me asking more questions, I went with an elf paladin with high (90) intuition to capitalize on Dodge and Evade. Good choice, bad choice, or is there not such a thing as good or bad?

[ZeP]

Dodging skill and racial bonuses for it are not super important for a paladin. Eventually you will be in plate with redux so getting hit physically is not a big deal. If you weren't swinging twohanders I'd say drop dodge altogether. You'll probably be ok only going 1x. That second rank of dodge is costing you 10/6 in training points. I'd drop that and get more Armor, PT, and CM like the farmer said.

For lores, it depends what you want to do. Read through the Paladin list to see what you want to be able to do. Since crowd control can be an issue for paladins I trained 26 ranks of Summoning Lore to get 1630 to hit more targets (and also make 1605 stronger). I also picked up 15 ranks religion to make things kneel more often with 1615/1630.

[trancix]

Paladins get redux even though they train in spells? I thought spell training was a big hindrance in achieving redux?

And what's Beseech about?

[Fallen]

Beseech allows you to remove any status ailment other than sleep as so long as you're not in RT. Think of it as Berserk +1

You prep/cast the spell, then when you need it, you type in Beseech. No chance of failure, no hindrance from armor. It is basically the best spell in the game.

[thefarmer]

Beseech allows you to remove any status ailment other than sleep as so long as you're not in RT. Think of it as Berserk +1

You prep/cast the spell, then when you need it, you type in Beseech. No chance of failure, no hindrance from armor. It is basically the best spell in the game.

It's actually easier than that. There's no prepping or casting of the spell at all, it doesn't even work like a standard 'spell'.

[Maerit]

Beseech is a better status effect remover than berserk, but berserk is just plain awesome for fighting swarms.

[Bhuryn]

Beseech is 1635 (Divine intervention). You use it by typing BESEECH. If that's what you were asking.

Depending on your stat placement you should beable to get 2.5-3x armor. I managed to fit 150 armor ranks, a bit over 1x cm, 1635/120, 1x survival/fa and all the typical stuff at 58. For me full plate was far more important then more CM, lores, etc, but I imagine some people have differing opinions.

[trancix]

I see what Beseech is about now, wasn't sure if it was just for 1635 or if it was some special pally ability from the get-go.

I rerolled to aim for more tps, dropping Intuition down for more Wisdom as I see farmer's and zep's point about not worrying about dodge as much.

I'll try going with farmer's core plan. I'm curious now about the "typical stuff" and what general skills I need to seek out. Is Harness the only way of gaining more mana, or will it come at all with levels like it used to? If it is, how much focus should it get, or rather is there a mana max I should shoot for?

And in the general skills, how much climb, swim, perc, fa, survival, etc. do I need to aim for? If I go with Sunfist, which I had no clue existed and looks awesome, it looks like it can help with a few of those?

[Bhuryn]

Typically you want:
.75x - 1x HP (I lean towards 1x) You don't gain mana for levels anymore. Your HP should never exceed your level as a paladin. The amount of mana you'll want heavily depends on your playstyle and build.

~25ish climb/swim has always been enough in the earlier (pre 70s) levels for me but I understand the mino area, rift, etc take more climbing (40 or so i hear).

1x+ pt -- It's tough to more then 1x PT and maintain near 3x armor without sacrificing other core things. I'm fixskilling to 2x PT soon as I get home but It's not costing me any of the core skills.

FA/Survival -- You really need 2x combined between the two if you're going to skin. I think 20 ranks is enough to bring down the RTs on herbs significantly but with GoS you don't really need it. Personally I abandoned my 1x FA/Survival awhile back cause It wasn't paying off for me like it does for some people. Survival has some added benefits if you hunt places like pinefar but I wouldn't invest heavily in either unless you commit to 2x.

Perception is fairly cheap but I have had 20 ranks for awhile and haven't had any desire to increase it yet.

Lores -- You want 25 religion first and foremost. After that there is varying debates about which threshold to shoot for. I think I am going to end up something like 25 religion, 11-12 summoning, and mid 30's blessing.

Spiritual mana control -- Don't bother unless you hunt with a spirit caster and don't use your mana to hunt, have a buring desire to raise (1640) or really want 2 more mana per pulse for some reason.

[trancix]

Thank you very much for the detailed help, Bhuryn!

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like FA and Survival should both get to 20 to at least reduce forage rt and help skinning chances. I'm wondering if at, say, level 50 having 20 in Survival will be better than 0, or if one needs to continue to train Survival if it's based on level?

Also, since I'm going THW I'm curious if there are any magic-metal claidhmores, i.e. a vultite claidhmore, at all? I seem to remember that they either don't exist or are very hard to find, though I never was much of one for THW before so I could be wrong.

Edit: Also, what Armor/CMAN skills work better for paladins? I seem to remember reading Weap Spec, Surge and maybe Feint or Disarm? Just curious if I should learn any now, or just wait it out and see.

[Bhuryn]

Magic claids are pretty rare, you can get the bottom end ones for ~3million. Mithril are generally about 5.

As for FA/survival, that is totally up to you. I have 0 in both and I imagine a large percentage of non-skinners/empaths/clerics do as well. To clarify, i thought you were in GoS (there is a sigil that reduces herb time to 3 seconds). When I was in COL I never bothered with herbs unless I wanted to continue hunting and then I would just heal certain things like nerves/head/arms for casting or legs for charging.

[holocene]

THW is a tough road for young pallies...if you want to die a lot less you might want to start off sword/board until you get the hang of it all. TP-wise, the Paladin is probably the most squeezed profession in the game (i.e., able to train in combat, spells and lores at a reasonable cost, but sometimes stretched until cap, and improving a lot long after cap).

[trancix]

I do want to try GoS, am not in anything yet. Can't remember how to get to Zul Logoth and I can't find any good scripts. SBC's website seems to be down, too.

[thefarmer]

Ha. I forgot I replied in this thread. Glad other people picked up where I left off.

A little more concrete advice.


Vivaldi (at level 77), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Polearm Weapons....................| 258 158
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 242 142
Dodging............................| 176 76
Arcane Symbols.....................| 105 25
Magic Item Use.....................| 114 28
Harness Power......................| 160 60
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 93 21
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 114 28
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 45 9
Climbing...........................| 128 34
Swimming...........................| 117 29

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 40

Excluding the AS and MIU (though I highly suggest getting some by 60-ish) that's about the bare bones, no frills 2hd/polearm build that you'll need to do well at that level.

edit: Note that polearms are slightly more expensive than 2hders, so with your build you'll have more TPs to throw into the things you want (Combat, secondary, etc).

[Bhuryn]

I would exclude the SMC as well, those points are better spent on armor until you have 150 =).

[trancix]

Thanks Farmer :)

Dang, 3m for just a mithril claid? So, since I'll never afford a magic claid, what about magic mauls? Are those accessible, like a vultite maul? And would a magic maul be greater than a regular claid, or no since claid's have huge crits?

[Bhuryn]

Thanks Farmer :)

Dang, 3m for just a mithril claid? So, since I'll never afford a magic claid, what about magic mauls? Are those accessible, like a vultite maul? And would a magic maul be greater than a regular claid, or no since claid's have huge crits?

5m for a mithril claid, 3 million for the magical invar (note most invar aren't magical) ones. Mauls are amazing weapons.

[BlueRaider]

Lores -- You want 25 religion first and foremost. After that there is varying debates about which threshold to shoot for. I think I am going to end up something like 25 religion, 11-12 summoning, and mid 30's blessing.


I've recently just started a pally, and I'm curious why the 25 religion lores first? I thought blessing lores would of been better.

[Bhuryn]

I've recently just started a pally, and I'm curious why the 25 religion lores first? I thought blessing lores would of been better.

Each rank of religion gives divine strike and judgement +2% chance to kneel. DS caps at 100%, judgement at 85%. It's really the best ore benefit we get.

[CaptContagious]

Divine Strike caps at 50% at 25 ranks.

[Bhuryn]

Divine Strike caps at 50% at 25 ranks.

50% + 50% base = 100%.

[thefarmer]

1615 · Divine Strike [DSTRIKE]
Duration: Immediate

Type: Attack

The Paladin calls upon the divine power of her patron to decimate her foe. When successfully cast, the target is surrounded by a damaging sacred force, and may additionally be forced to kneel. Divine Strike also forces the target into Roundtime (RT).

Training in Spiritual Lore, Religion increases the overall chance of forcing the target to kneel by 2% per rank, with a maximum bonus of 50% gained at 25 ranks.

There's no 50% + 50%...

edit: Or at least there's nothing that says the base is 50%

[Bhuryn]

There's no 50% + 50%...

edit: Or at least there's nothing that says the base is 50%

Strange, I always thought DS was base 50% and I thought it said that it was. I did second guess that last night when I had a DS not kneel a shaman, but I thought that might be tied to the cold damage effect that triggered. Maybe they're both 85% max.

[TheLastShamurai]

Strange, I always thought DS was base 50% and I thought it said that it was. I did second guess that last night when I had a DS not kneel a shaman, but I thought that might be tied to the cold damage effect that triggered. Maybe they're both 85% max.

I'm pretty sure that the mechanics with 1615 and 1630 are exactly the same. Not only because this is SIMU we're talking about, but also I'm fully trained for the kneeling benefit and when I hit creatures with 1615 they don't always kneel (crit knockdowns aside).

It took me a minute for find an example, but here is one where the crit didn't knock them down nor did the spell make them kneel.


You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
A pillar of dark amber radiance manifests around a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +430 - TD: +323 + CvA: +25 + d100: +42 == +174
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the triton radical's body!
... 43 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Blast to hand reduces it to pulp!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Here is a knock down example...


You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Divine Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
A pillar of dark amber radiance manifests around a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +430 - TD: +343 + CvA: +25 + d100: +52 == +164
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the triton radical's body!
... 43 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Right kneecap smashed into pulp.
It is knocked to the ground!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

In my opinion if you have a damage type that will consistently knock a creature down, then you're actually achieving less than 85%, because the crit overcomes the kneel effect.

[trancix]

A question about two-handed weapons...

I'm having a hard time understanding why to ever not use a claidhmore?

At what point would a maul, perhaps, be worth using over a claidhmore? At a certain AS bonus, or a perfect/superior DF bonus or something? Or in order to use guiding light (if one can find a cleric who can bless magic metal)?

Just seems that with a claidhmore's crit weighting, having a lower AS isn't a huge deal?

[Bhuryn]

Well, mauls/mattocks are easier to aim, crush only and one second faster. But the crit weighting is pretty significant if you can get a magic one.

[trancix]

I suppose that's what I mean - I doubt I'll afford a magic claid for quite some time, if ever.

Someone was kind enough to sell me a rather cheap superior vultite maul, though, and I jumped at it. Don't have enough trains quite yet to use it, heh, so I can't test anything on my own.

But I wondered if I could get the maul blessed and use 1608 for flares, with the +20 AS and flares if it'd be a worthy choice over a plain claid or not.

[Lysanio]

1608 only works on sanctified weapons. Lots of people like the flares you get from sanctified weapons. I used a lot of weapons on my way up through the levels and never felt like I was missing out by not using a claidhmore.

[trancix]

Oh, it does say on sanctified weapons. I figured if it got blessed it'd work. Well nevermind on that then :D

[Bhuryn]

Once you get 1625 and cast it on that maul you shouldn't really have any issues a claid would be required to solve. Mauls are very good weapons, probably the best all around base there is. High DF on plate, solid round time.

[trancix]

I'm now at level 10, and before I reach 11 I'm curious if anyone has some training advice. Here's my current skills:

Vauldrik (at level 10), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 111 27 27
Combat Maneuvers...................| 54 11 11
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 102 24 24
Physical Fitness...................| 96 22 22
Dodging............................| 54 11 11
Harness Power......................| 30 6 6
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 5 1 1
Survival...........................| 15 3 3
Perception.........................| 15 3 3
Climbing...........................| 25 5 5
Swimming...........................| 30 6 6
First Aid..........................| 15 3 3

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 10 10

I really want to at least 2.5x armor, but haven't quite made it. It's like 2.3x or something now.

Unless anyone else sees something wrong that I don't, I guess my main concern is being able to start 2x-ing CM or start MOC which I haven't trained at all yet, and in order to do so I think I need to drop Dodging at least, and/or go straight 2x armor.

I donno... any help?

[Bhuryn]

I wouldn't mess with too many secondary skills like FA until you're a bit older.

ARe you placed for growth? Doesn't seem like you have many TPs to work with.

[trancix]

Nope, not placed for growth. I started with like 48/44 or 49/43 tps I think.

Name: Vauldrik Race: Elf Profession: Paladin (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 140033 Level: 11
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Constitution (CON): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Dexterity (DEX): 83 (21) ... 83 (21)
Agility (AGI): 93 (36) ... 93 (36)
Discipline (DIS): 55 (-13) ... 55 (-13)
Aura (AUR): 73 (16) ... 73 (16)
Logic (LOG): 71 (10) ... 71 (10)
Intuition (INT): 35 (-7) ... 35 (-7)
Wisdom (WIS): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Influence (INF): 31 (1) ... 31 (1)
Mana: 28 Silver: 0

Heh, only had short game in mind. As far as tps go, it's taken a few levels to get out of a mtp -> ptp hole. I remember after the last training I had 9 ptp and 2 mtp's left over, right before I leveled I had 57/45 (so 49/43?) then I regained some and ended up with 80/48. Still don't know how that works...

I guess I wouldn't mind rerolling if that would make a big difference, unless there's some other way to change stats?

[Lysanio]

You did a few things different than me. I only 1x PF but I 3xed armor until 150 ranks. As a THW paladin I would continue to at least single dodge. I didn't really start training in any lores until after I was done spell training. I am working on getting 30 ranks MOC and then doubling CM. Here are my skills, granted I am higher level than you.

Lysanio (at level 66), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Combat Maneuvers..............| 169 69
Two-Handed Weapons..........| 236 136
Multi Opponent Combat.........| 114 28
Physical Fitness...................| 168 68
Dodging..............................| 168 68
Arcane Symbols....................| 62 13
Magic Item Use.....................| 5 1
Harness Power......................| 166 66
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Religion...........| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Summoning......| 58 12
Perception............................| 102 24
Climbing...............................| 120 30
Swimming.............................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 40

[Alorn15]

Here I am at 51, with no frills:

Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Combat Maneuvers...................| 154 54
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 206 106
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35
Physical Fitness...................| 153 53
Dodging............................| 153 53
Harness Power......................| 153 53
Spirit Mana Control................| 50 10
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 110 26
Climbing...........................| 15 3

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 7

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 35

Why SMC? Self-buffing to 4 hours takes a LONG time without others' mana.

My primary issue is DS, though I do more than fine everywhere but warcamps. I rarely die, but those minors stack up FAST and I'd like to cut down on my empath addiction. Debating between some blessings lore, more PT, and/or moving towards 120.

Also, my plate is basic 4x non-padded, so that's something to consider.

[Bhuryn]

SMC is required for 1640.

I recently switched to blunts/shield and went 2x PT. I like the DS alot, but I miss charge =P.

[trancix]

Thanks for the info :)

I suppose I'll just stick to my cores for now and not worry about lore/general skills for a while. Seems like I can make all my cores about 2/3 or 3/4 levels. I wanted to double in PT for life, hoping that'd help reduction later on. Maybe it'll only be negligible tho?

Edit:

I'm thinking I might want to re-stat, is that possible? And if is possible, I'd want to do so to get more MTPs. It seems like between 2x THW and 1x CM, Dodge, Spells and Harness I'm spending just a little more than what I have to use. If I were to restat for that reason, and given the info list I gave above, would anyone recommend doing this and if so how would you distribute the stats?

[Bhuryn]

2x PT is awsome compared to 1x.

Stamina, stamina regen, health regen, redux, some manuvers, etc.