Magical rogue fix skill

[Lord Orbstar]

Armor Use-----------140
Ranged Weapons----192
Combat Maneuvers---96
Multi-Op Combat------5
Ambush -----------192
Physical Fitness------96
Dodging-------------288 (3x)
Climbing--------------20
Swimming------------50
Stalking and Hiding --288 (3x)
Perception----------190
Arcane Symbols------20
Magic Item Use------10
Harness Power-------15

Minor Elemental --14
Minor Spirit--------3


:help:

Armor Use------------140
Ranged Weapons-----192
Combat Maneuvers ----96
Ambush--------------192
Physical Fitness-------96
Dodging--------------120
Climbing---------------20
Swimming-------------50
Stalking and Hiding----279 (3x)
Perception------------190
Arcane Symbols--------20
Magic Item Use--------10
Harness Power---------32

Minor Elemental 25
Minor Spirit 7

:help:



Which spec will be more viable in the almost-cap hunting grounds? I would play a pure rogue-warrior spec if I thought you could live without spells. I do not care about box picking, just surviving and thriving. The second one is how I am leaning now, but i worry about my DS. I know I will not always be hidden, but that is my goal.

[Victorj]

As an archer, you're gonna be hunting OTF and Nelemar. Rift is out of the question since vaesps are puncture immune.

#1 would obviously be better for survival, since you're 3x dodge and 3x hide. I'd completely drop the MOC and get some more ranks in some more magic skills for spellburst purposes. I'm assuming you're not a giant (I think Orbstar was human or half-elf when I saw him last, been too long), so you'd probably want to be able to hold strength to hide and snipe in 3 seconds. You'd probably want spells like 107, 509, 503, 202 for some cheap DS if need be.


I don't see the point of #2. Why 32 ranks of harness. Are you going to be field casting? If so, drop 10 ranks of armor use (130 is min for MnE in hauberk) and pick up some more dodging.

Have you considered the sword swinging variation, or just archery?

[Lord Orbstar]

I didnt know that about Vaespilions.

I thought archery would be safest for hunting since it seems to cost us the least in points and allows for extra spells to be taken. I wouldnt mind being sword and board, or better, two weapon spec, but I want to survive and learn the areas most of all. I do not MA and know nobody that would hunt with me. I will have to hunt solo and "as is" with self-spells. Maybe I can get mass blurs/colors from others. /sad

I have 32 ranks in Harness Power so I can field cast if needed and not have to take forever to spell up.

I have 140 ranks in armor so I can take up to rank 4 in the new armor skill that helps you hide -stealth mastery or some such. 130 ranks won't let me get that 4th level of skill. Is it not worth it in your opinion?

I could go the evasion route with the new armor skill instead for survivability when I am knocked out of stealth or caught with my pants down.

I thought having 425 would be extremely useful. Is that extra AS not so important after all? I currently have 425 and no spells in minor spirit in the build I am using now (and going to fixskill away).

My rogue is indeed Half-Elf.

Is being a true square viable in OTF/Nelemar? 2x CM, 3x dodge, Edged+shield, 2x hide, with NO spells?

[Victorj]

That's fine, I do the same. It's not that hard to ask an empath for 107/202, and use a white crystal for 509. Also, save up your small statues, since they don't count towards spellburst.

No, the 4th rank isn't worth it. The reason why is this
a) For stealth, you get 0 benefit if you wear plate. The documentation is
"Provides a bonus to Stealth rolls equal to (Rank * 2 * (5 - Armor Group)).", and since plate is AG 5, you get 0 bonus. In chain, the difference between rank 3 and 4 is 2 bonus, whatever that means.
b) Evasion is slightly better. The documentation is "Reduces the Armor Action Penalty by (Rank * (7 - Armor Group)) / 2.", so the difference between rank 3 and 4 is 1 in plate and 1.5 in chain.

So basically, I think it would be better to take the 100 ptps from the 10 armor ranks and use it to get 12 dodge ranks (assuming you are converting), and use the 3 ranks in evasion.

No, the extra AS isn't as important in OTF. You can easily hunt OTF with a 480ish archery AS (what your AS should be at 95 with society). Any higher is just gravy.

Of course it's viable. You'll probably have a harder time with 2x hide though, so I would probably do 2x cm, 2x dodge, 3x hide, edged/shield, 2x pf for redux and a whole bunch of magic ranks (arcane, miu, some harness), so you can ask for the 100s/400s. Get a 4x or 5x dagger and kill everything with an eyeshot. Cake.

[Lord Orbstar]

Armor Use 130 (1.4X)
Ranged Weapons 192 (2.0X)
Combat Maneuvers 96 (1.0X)
Ambush 192 (2.0X)
Physical Fitness 96 (1.0X)
Dodging 277 (2.9X)
Climbing 20 (0.2X)
Swimming 50 (0.5X)
Stalking and Hiding 288 (3.0X)
Perception 190 (2.0X)
Arcane Symbols 20 (0.2X)
Harness Power 15 (0.2X)

Minor Elemental 14 (0.1X)
Minor Spirit 7 (0.1X)



Okay, I think I will go with this. I got my dodge and S&H way up there while keeping the ability to defensively buff myself. casting 425 is cool, but maybe too much an ego thing not yet worth it. I will probably hunt in less than AsG20 to get benefit from evasion, although I really prefer to stay hidden. I just want to try out the new system. If it sucks, I will just put the plate armor back on. After I buy some more...

[Stretch]

Drop stalking and hiding to 0.

Pick up 425 if possible.

[Lord Orbstar]

why would anyone not want to hide as a rogue? I do not have the high dollar crit padded plate armor required for standing in the open blazing away. I have 425 currently, but dropping it lets me 3x dodge and S&H

[thefarmer]

Open archer does fine.

[Renian]

why would anyone not want to hide as a rogue?

Because it frees up TPs, and at cap with 425 you can one-shot in the eye anything that doesn't have plate with your bow. Because of this, Renian has 0 hiding skill now. I only really have problems with Ithzir heralds (fucking shields and discs), but they are lower level anyway. Ithzir adepts will sometimes cast Wizard Shield but as soon as that drops they are gone. I could, in theory, just sweep them to fix that problem before firing.

Therefore, Orbstar, drop ALL of your hiding and get 425. You will not regret it.

[Renian]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif Magical rogue fix skill 06-06-2009 09:21 PM WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG! -Lex

Who the fuck is Lex and why is he such a douche duffel?

[neimanz1]

I think you should drop the minor spirit,arcane symbols, and whatever dodge you need to get 425. Rogues shouldn't be fighting in the open since 3x hiding is so cheap. Plus its harder for critters to block & evade arrows when your sniping. Open archery is good for ranger because they got tangle weed, sounds, and they could thorn them.

and as for equipment wise. get the highest enchant armor and bow possible. Most people think its a waste to have a bow over 5x but you get 5 to ds per enchant. Unless you have a self ammo bow I would definitely use the highest enchant bow possible since its a lot cheaper then db items

[Renian]

Rogues shouldn't be fighting in the open since 3x hiding is so cheap.

I agree only when there's a LOT of mobs in the room, and you want to kill all of them. Otherwise, it's just more RT. Assuming you are using archery + 425, that is.


Unless you have a self ammo bow I would definitely use the highest enchant bow possible since its a lot cheaper then db items

Due to disarm I can't really agree here. At least not in OTF.

[neimanz1]

I think its true even if its one on one. since I only come out of hiding like average one out of 6 shots. Plus when i am sniping it lowers the chance of them blocking,parrying, or evading my arrow. And the only reason why you would want spells for a rogue is for the 425 & ewave. No Point in being rogue archer If you going to be fighting in the open. Because you would suck compare to a ranger. stealth sniper rogue is the way to go or you might as well roll up a ranger

[neimanz1]

Sniper rogues are the reason why shadow mastery was nerfed. Reason why you can't find warriors to assess your bows is because warrior suck at archery!! Way better of throwing big weapons which is probably why surge got nerfed... If your a melee rogue & don't take advantage of hiding and ds pushdown you should be a damn warrior. Bonding and berserk. 3x hiding & 3x dodging is our only advantage in terms of combat.

[Renian]

No Point in being rogue archer If you going to be fighting in the open. Because you would suck compare to a ranger.

rofl. Rangers can't 3x perception, and thus can not be as accurate. Nor can they learn 425.

I'm speaking from experience at cap here. You don't need to hide, and the only point of doing so really is if you want to down Ithzir heralds (fuck their shields), or you need to wipe a whole room while making sure you're not going to get hit. You don't need DS pushdown with 425 running.


Reason why you can't find warriors to assess your bows is because warrior suck at archery!!

Warriors suck at everything. But it's really because they can't bond to a bow and get the full benefit.


If your a melee rogue & don't take advantage of hiding and ds pushdown you should be a damn warrior.

I would never tell anyone to be a warrior, but yes, you should definitely be a different class. Bard or Paladin, I'd think.

[neimanz1]

I agree with what your saying as well. Definitely with the 3x perception thing most people don't realize how useful that skill is for an archer. But I consider that a post cap goal though. Ta faendryl is super easy the only reason why I don't hunt there is because of the looting & connection problems sometimes.

[Renian]

But I consider that a post cap goal though.

True. Very, very true.

[JustWondering]

rofl. Rangers can't 3x perception, and thus can not be as accurate. Nor can they learn 425.


Does 3x perception help with aiming? I was under the impression that anything more than 2x was a waste.

[Lord Orbstar]

I wouldnt say "waste". I have seen others with 2.4x and that seems to be a good spot for the bang versus buck.

At a little over 2x myself, I usually stick the arrow in their eye.

[DaCapn]

Perception does not determine the accuracy of aim while ambushing.

I was under the impression for a long time that perception helped but it really does not. For archery it factors in with your AS. It plays no other role in successful attacks (at least to my knowledge). Training over 2x in perception has zero returns for ranged AS. For disarming traps, the most you will ever need is 2x. So, more than 2x perception basically is a waste.

EDIT: The following response to my above post is important:

That's only correct with melee weapons. Perception is a huge factor in aiming ranged weapons from the open, and ambush/perception play an equal role in aiming while sniping. 3x perception greatly helps the accuracy of eye shots compared to 2x.

[Fallen]

Also, doesn't hiding basically protect you from Ithzir fading? If you aren't able to Ward Adepts/Seers/etc outright, they are going to pop you if you're aren't wandering around OTF in the shadows. They will still have an opportunity to hit you in mid-combat, but that is a far less significant amount of time than that of walking around.

[Jaimaltz]

Perception does not determine the accuracy of aim while ambushing.

I was under the impression for a long time that perception helped but it really does not. For archery it factors in with your AS. It plays no other role in successful attacks (at least to my knowledge). Training over 2x in perception has zero returns for ranged AS. For disarming traps, the most you will ever need is 2x. So, more than 2x perception basically is a waste.

That's only correct with melee weapons. Perception is a huge factor in aiming ranged weapons from the open, and ambush/perception play an equal role in aiming while sniping. 3x perception greatly helps the accuracy of eye shots compared to 2x.

[Ryvicke]

rofl. Rangers can't 3x perception, and thus can not be as accurate.

Rangers have 613, and like other Ranger spells, this helps us get in line with the training that Rogues can do without actually training in the skills we can't 3x.

601/617 - hiding/sneaking
613 - perception (when factored into AIM'ing ranged weapons)
618 - dodge

Some of these are a 1:1 ratio when it comes to spell ranks to actual phantom ranks of each skill.

Add in 603, 604, 607, 610, 612, 615, 616, 619, 635 and it's RANGERS FTW.

[Fallen]

Semi's>Squares the closer you get to cap in all cases.

[Bhuryn]

So, ambush doesn't play a role in aiming from the open with a bow? If that
s the case you're really trading (40-ranks)/4 AS for all those points? That's 40 AS for 202 ranks.

[DaCapn]

That's only correct with melee weapons. Perception is a huge factor in aiming ranged weapons from the open, and ambush/perception play an equal role in aiming while sniping. 3x perception greatly helps the accuracy of eye shots compared to 2x.

I stand corrected.

[Ryvicke]

So, ambush doesn't play a role in aiming from the open with a bow? If that
s the case you're really trading (40-ranks)/4 AS for all those points? That's 40 AS for 202 ranks.

I think anything over 1x ambush is a post-cap goal for most open archers, if they even 1x.

[Jaimaltz]

So, ambush doesn't play a role in aiming from the open with a bow? If that
s the case you're really trading (40-ranks)/4 AS for all those points? That's 40 AS for 202 ranks.

Yup, that's why archer bards don't bother 1xing in ambush, and many rangers forego it entirely if they prefer using it in the open instead of sniping. It's a huge TP cost for a bonus you can basically get from a pure potion, unless you can fully 2x it where that's even more expensive. Useful post cap goal I suppose.

Edit: Bah, hate repeating what someone says right before me.

[Bhuryn]

That actually makes me really happy cause It means I can fit what I wanted in my training plan =).

[Gibreficul]

if you're getting 425, get 430 before you even get 101. The 100s circle is easy to get cast on you. If you know the right people, even 120 isn't hard to get access to without the spell knowledge, and it's much more TP efficient to train off the spellburst of that circle's spells than to actually learn the spells.

otherwise, I'm staying out of the "archery" discussion, as I've never bothered with it.

:club:

[Loagan]

So what build did you end up going with in the end, and how did it work out for you? I only want to know because I'm level 87 right now and I'm thinking about going down a training path fairly similar to this.

[Lord Orbstar]

Name: FOR SALE Race: Human Profession: Rogue (shown as: Master Locksmith)
Gender: Male Age: 40 Expr: 13892537 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Aura (AUR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 74 (12) ... 74 (12)
Influence (INF): 64 (7) ... 64 (7)
Mana: 157 Silver: 2450
>info start
Level 0 Stats for FOR SALE, Human Rogue

Strength (STR): 70
Constitution (CON): 70
Dexterity (DEX): 80
Agility (AGI): 70
Discipline (DIS): 73
Aura (AUR): 82
Logic (LOG): 73
Intuition (INT): 65
Wisdom (WIS): 57
Influence (INF): 20

>skill
FORSALE (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 240 140
Combat Maneuvers...................| 202 102
Ranged Weapons.....................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 302 202
Physical Fitness...................| 302 202
Dodging............................| 403 303
Harness Power......................| 151 51
Elemental Mana Control.............| 30 6
Spirit Mana Control................| 50 10
Survival...........................| 10 2
Disarming Traps....................| 403 303
Picking Locks......................| 403 303
Perception.........................| 340 240
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

[Lord Orbstar]

the mana control is so I can send mana to other characters I may be MAing or other players.

[Loagan]

Why so high on the swimming?

[Lord Orbstar]

Old Ta faendryl.

[Loagan]

I have 50 ranks of swim and I do fine.

[Lord Orbstar]

Once you reach 101 ranks in swimming though you can swim like the Man from Atlantis. Look it up on the internet...patrick duffy was the star. True Story.

[Gibreficul]

My two cents. Magic rogues should forgo the 100s circle completely until they have both spell 425 and spell 430. Any spell in the 100s circle can be cast upon you, or imbedded, including 120, and the costs near cap and beyond to train off the spellburst effects of the 100s circle are remarkably lower than the TP cost to learn those spells. 425 and 430 are selfcast only, and thus should take priority.


Armor Use..........................| 301 201
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Edged Weapons......................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 302 202
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Dodging............................| 302 202
Arcane Symbols.....................| 128 34
Magic Item Use.....................| 122 31
Harness Power......................| 132 36
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Spirit Mana Control................| 90 20
Disarming Traps....................| 403 303
Picking Locks......................| 403 303
Stalking and Hiding................| 302 202
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 150 50

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 30
Training Points: 6 Phy 0 Mnt (606 Phy converted to Mnt)

That's a magic rogue build, post-cap.

[Stabbyrogue]

The AS you gain with 425 is nowhere near what you gain thru pushdown by hiding and ambushing. Just saying.

[Gibreficul]

The AS you gain with 425 is nowhere near what you gain thru pushdown by hiding and ambushing. Just saying.

I'd like to clear the air a little. DS pushdown isn't actually pushing down defense, it's forcing stance reductions, up to a full offensive stance push. If a critter is in stance offensive, and you ambush it from hiding, it's defense is the same as just attacking it from the open, minus the crit adder of an ambush from hiding. CHECK IT OUT:



You are now in an offensive stance.
J>
Gibreficul drops all defense as he moves into a battle-ready stance.
J>
Gibreficul swings a perfect steel dagger at you!
AS: +484 vs DS: +370 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +13 = +150
... and hits for 16 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the right leg.
J>

Gibreficul leaps from hiding to attack!
Gibreficul swings a perfect steel dagger at you!
AS: +484 vs DS: +370 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +5 = +142
... and hits for 54 points of damage!
Hard slash to your side opens your spleen!
You are stunned for 6 rounds!


>stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Gibreficul moves into a defensive stance, ready to fend off an attack.
>
Gibreficul leaps from hiding to attack!
Gibreficul swings a perfect steel dagger at you!
AS: +484 vs DS: +392 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +21 = +136
... and hits for 38 points of damage!
Strike punctures thigh and shatters femur!
You fall screaming to the ground grasping your mangled left leg!
You are stunned for 10 rounds!



See... For the record, the target has 40 perception ranks and is capped, thus Gibreficul did NOT force a full offensive stance.