Is Gemstone Too Complex?

[Kuyuk]

Take an look at GS as a new players point of view, or perspective new player.. Do you think GS has become too complex in its mechanics over the years?

I can see how people who have been playing all along can roll with the changes as they come along.

Anyway, don't hate, just seeing others' thoughts.

[Kuyuk]

an example may be 15,000 rooms for ~400 players... or whatever the actual numbers may be...

/shrug

[Back]

Compared to games like WoW and some other mmorpgs I’ve played GS is very simple. Plus, the complexity is progressive. Nothing really complex at level 1-20 but then it starts getting interesting the more options the character has.

[Methais]

Does Stormfront have built in maps? I know I almost quit GS on my first day because I didn't know where the fuck I was or how to get anywhere until I stumbled on Zepath's maps.

I don't think the basic mechanics for GS are all that complicated (AS/DS, CS/TD, basic combat stuff, etc.) but some of the stuff can get pretty ridiculous, but in most cases it only becomes that way if you're some hardcore min/maxer, in which case this complexity problem probably doesn't apply to you anyway.

[Durgrimst]

Gemstone is very simple, it only gets complex if you want it to be. When you start trying to min/max and crunch numbers to be the GREATEST texter in all of Elanthia then it gets complex. But you can go from 0-100 without wearing anything besides 4x gear and having shitty stats. Hell, I have bought post cap guys with horrendous stats, so bad that i bought a fixskill just to not have to get upset when I typed INFO.

[thefarmer]

If GS is too complicated, stick to tictactoe

[AestheticDeath]

Way too complicated for beginners. I recall spending tons of time trying to figure out the stat growth when I started so I didn't have a retarded character. I mean if your going to play something, play it right ya know?

Without scripts, or at least maps it can be way to time consuming and troublesome to get around gemstone.

I can recall just completely begging for rides to Icemule or Solhaven from the landing. Paying for the transport sometimes. Finally got a script and thought it was the best thing ever.

And with gemstone most everything is 'secret'. You don't always know what skills affect what spells etc. If we didn't have all the number crunching nerds doing the work for us, or the scripters helping us out, normal joes wouldn't even stay in the game.

Atm, I see how easy a ton of things are. But thinking back on my first days, weeks or months in gemstone, I was completely lost. Part of that lost feeling and the enormity of the game was fun, but not always. The main thing that kept me in the game, was the unlimited levels, which was done away with.

And so many mechanics in gemstone don't even make a lick of sense. I mean what is the point of having to train through cloth, leather and chain armors just to get to plate? I would separate those out.

And stupid changes like randomizing the pulse timers...

I got lost in my thoughts but anyways yeah it can be too complicated as far as I am concerned. Doesn't matter that you can cap with a shitty character, you still have a shitty character.

And having the one hour time limits on town to town travel if you don't want to walk is crazy. As well as having the price increase. Yeah more random shit... anyways.

[Proxy]

GS isn't a horribly complex game at least as far as MMO's go. But this doesn't mean that it is simplistic one either. What it is(uniquely) is a massive time hog littered with inumerable kill-joys. And a dev group characterized or rather hallmarked by inconsistencies & often times counter-productive design paradigms.

[Back]

maps

I agree that MAPS are essential for the casual player. Reading the officials and these boards is also good.

Big ups to Zepath and Tsoran and the PC (formerly known as The Spot or The Unofficial Boards). In my early days thats all I needed. Maps that listed critter levels and people discussing mechanics.

[oldanforgotten]

Way too complicated for beginners. I recall spending tons of time trying to figure out the stat growth when I started so I didn't have a retarded character. I mean if your going to play something, play it right ya know?

Without scripts, or at least maps it can be way to time consuming and troublesome to get around gemstone.

I can recall just completely begging for rides to Icemule or Solhaven from the landing. Paying for the transport sometimes. Finally got a script and thought it was the best thing ever.

And with gemstone most everything is 'secret'. You don't always know what skills affect what spells etc. If we didn't have all the number crunching nerds doing the work for us, or the scripters helping us out, normal joes wouldn't even stay in the game.

Atm, I see how easy a ton of things are. But thinking back on my first days, weeks or months in gemstone, I was completely lost. Part of that lost feeling and the enormity of the game was fun, but not always. The main thing that kept me in the game, was the unlimited levels, which was done away with.

And so many mechanics in gemstone don't even make a lick of sense. I mean what is the point of having to train through cloth, leather and chain armors just to get to plate? I would separate those out.

And stupid changes like randomizing the pulse timers...

I got lost in my thoughts but anyways yeah it can be too complicated as far as I am concerned. Doesn't matter that you can cap with a shitty character, you still have a shitty character.

And having the one hour time limits on town to town travel if you don't want to walk is crazy. As well as having the price increase. Yeah more random shit... anyways.

its a two way street. For the random casual player, gemstone mechanics are far more complex than their counterparts in other MMO's, specifically the graphical ones, where people can /faceroll keyboard to cap.

As far as the high end content is concerned (both pvp and pve), the math involved in the calculations in the other MMO's, specifically WoW, or EQ, or Warhammer, as well as the strategic elements based on class compositions are far more complex than anything in gemstone.

[CaptContagious]

I think if GS had a better introduction program for new players it would make things alot easier. Or just more Mentor-like people. Problem is that hardcore GS'ers most of the time HATE newbies. Of there was a larger group of mentors or people whose job was to help newbies it would make it all so much easier. The so called complexities are what makes gemstone what it is. But if i didn't have a friend that had already been playing for a while that could explain shit to me I might have gave up on GS. Now, Its what keeps me comming back to GS everytime i think about leaving.

[Renian]

No. Complex is too Gemstone.

[Ker_Thwap]

You can choose to ignore the complexity.

When starting any new game, I start off with a warrior and type kill a lot. Then I create a wizard type and learn the magic system. Then I create a hybrid and by that time I have a pretty good handle on how the game works.

There are still systems I don't entirely understand, but for the most part they don't interest me.

[Kuyuk]

I like the responses.

I remember memorizing the path from landing to mule back in the day.. and I still remember almost all of it.

Then they creates solhaven, and I never went there because I didnt want to memorize another trip.


K.

[Allereli]

I love the complex systems, I hate how they're implemented with timesink afte timesink. Seriously, 500 sec RTs that you're expected to be present for? It's downright retarded.

[Beguiler]

I remember being so utterly, totally lost my first days in GS. Even running messages was almost overwhelming. I might well have given up, but I was lucky enough to meet and be 'adopted' by the players in Helden Hall. They were amazingly helpful, and taught me so much that would have taken me forever to find out on my own.

I love many of the changes, most of them I've grown up with over the years, but I can see how a brand new player might just stand and gawk. I think the sprite quest helps a little, and the mentors help, and I see players helping noobs all the time, so I guess it works. But there are some things that are just amazingly hard for a newbie, so I had to vote with 'maybe a little'.

[Ryvicke]

I hate to throw out some heavy Ta'Vaalor love but any new character I've started there (mostly for the beer run 0-5 script) end up getting about a jillion whispers or just plain asked if I need help with anything. I know I've taken a few people to tables and went through the gamut of AsG questions, training plans etc. as well. It's a help-heavy town for any actual fresh new players--if it weren't for the gaggle of creepy chicks trying to cyber I'd probably keep a few more characters around there for the haul.

[CaptContagious]

There should be a better help system. Or starting area that one can "Choose" to go to. In MUDs I have played, they had a new player support team and specific channel that new players and support team members can chat openly on up to a certain level. I think a system like that would help out a lot.

[Loyrl]

I just think the world is to big now with only 400~ people on at a time, I know a lot of people will think otherwise though. It was fine when 1000+ people played but now... I started when I was not even a teenager, when it was on AOL & that other service. I don't remember it being to complex though, I did have a cousin that played also though who knew a lot about gs.

[Atlanteax]

Gemstone has always been retardedly simple.

[Fallen]

Looks like everything I would say about the complexity of GS has basically already been stated. The game is as complicated as you choose for it to be. If you don't care to understand the minutiae of the game's mechanics, all you need is a basic understanding of your profession's core skills to progress all the way to the cap.

[Ignot]

Actually playing the game is very easy (especially when you learn how to make scripts) but the mechanics are way to complicated then they need to be.



Player 1 attempts to put a piece of trash in the garbage can and falls down on the ground.
Broken leg!
**you are hit for 45 points of damage**

Player 1 "what the hell, why can't I throw this away?"

Player 2 "the equation to be able to throw something away with 0% hinderance is (dex + 2x str)/4 * survival ranks + (armor ranks/armor type) + racial modifiers."

Player 1 "fuck this game."

[Stanley Burrell]

Methais: Post the thing about clocks.

[Fallen]

Just as a talking point I am told the computations for mechanics in WoW require a pretty beefy computer despite the shitty graphics because how complex they are.

[thefarmer]

In MUDs I have played, they had a new player support team and specific channel that new players and support team members can chat openly on up to a certain level. I think a system like that would help out a lot.


I think if GS had a better introduction program for new players it would make things alot easier.


New players? Do you even play Gemstone IV?

[NocturnalRob]

SIMU NEEDS TO BEEF UP THEIR MARKETING CAMPAIGN!!!1!!1eleven

[Ryvicke]

There are genuine new players--I usually don't believe anyone either that tells me they just started playing but then they copy/paste me their stats/skills and they have INF at 100 cause like 'they totally want people to like them' and they trained in a bunch of spell aim so they could aim 401 at themselves.

Again... Vaalor. Actual new players.

[Ignot]

I think new players should start out with a gold ring with lots of charges. I remember getting really lost when i first started playing and it was annoying.

[DaCapn]

I voted yes but I need to add a qualifier for the term "complex" in this case.

GS mechanics have no overall consistency. Each mechanism in the game appears to be based off of an entirely different paradigm. It has such wild variations in its mechanics with these non-linear and seeded growth trends and fuzzy undisclosed systems (enchanting or spellburst for instance). These kind of mechanisms show how patchwork the system is and how there was never any "big picture" thinking when it comes to overall mechanics (this is not to say that they don't try to achieve game balance). Shit just gets made up as they go along and I think this makes it difficult to fix old problems (such as hiding mechanics).

If anyone is familiar with the d20 system used in D&D 3E, you know how simple an intricate system can be made to use. Huge numbers of options are available, but the rules follow an overall structure and method which makes the mechanics of the game trivial to understand. All tertiary skills determine success/failure according to one simple formula. Whether you're picking a lock or skinning a creature, the calculation of success is of the same form. And this is not at the expense of range of difficulty, influencing factors, possible outcomes, etc.

Obviously they're built on two different paradigms (one is meant to be controlled by humans, the other computers) but in either case, to really play the game, you need to have some mastery of the rules.

I think THIS is what makes the game annoyingly complex.

The vast number of options in the game make it what I'm preferring to call intricate (I'm not trying to be all about semantics here, I'm just trying to consistently use the word complex to mean a specific thing). This is certainly one of the strengths of the game and does NOT make it difficult for new players.

AD hit a big point here as well: They don't even supply maps. The documentation is pretty poor (Is evade mastery documented yet? How long have the dodge docs stated that it aids in maneuver defense?). A real documentation project didn't come about until recently (krakiipedia). Playershops... this REAL forum (which is not a fucked up little message board)... Lich and Psinet... It's easier to play this game if you don't check the official website ever because the information is wrong, less comprehensive, or organized worse.

[AestheticDeath]

How many of you would shop in the player shops if you didn't have playershops.com?

How many of you would quit if you didn't have lich or psinet cheats?

[diethx]

I don't use lich or psinet.

I wouldn't use playershops without the site though. I think Simu should have created some sort of searchable database for those anyway.

[Donquix]

not having psinet i would probably quit sooner, not because it makes the game easier but because it gives me people to talk to in RT, or out hunting that doesn't screw me up (cough, thoughtnet)

playershops no one would use without the website, i suspect.

[Trouble]

How many of you would shop in the player shops if you didn't have playershops.com?

How many of you would quit if you didn't have lich or psinet cheats?

I could easily live w/o psinet/Lich (actually I never used Lich and only briefly used psinet) but I certainly would cease to use or operate a player shop without playershops.com. I also would have quit within a couple of weeks if the Wizard (or whatever the original FE was in AOL days) hadn't been developed.

I couldn't imagine how complex of a system GS would be for a new player now that the world is so large and comparatively complex (cmans, lores, runes, etc). If I hadn't found and obsessively read all the player-written guides and maps back in the Zepath/etc days, I would have dropped GS pretty early on.

[thefarmer]

AD hit a big point here as well: They don't even supply maps. The documentation is pretty poor (Is evade mastery documented yet? How long have the dodge docs stated that it aids in maneuver defense?). A real documentation project didn't come about until recently (krakiipedia). Playershops... this REAL forum (which is not a fucked up little message board)... Lich and Psinet... It's easier to play this game if you don't check the official website ever because the information is wrong, less comprehensive, or organized worse.

Stormfront has built in maps.

Documentation has been poor since the game started, yet there wasn't a problem with new players (then).

Playershops is bad game design and belongs in a separate topic titled 'GM mistakes'.

Plenty of people play without Psinet and Lich. I've only used psinet for 1/10th of my playing time.

[Lumi]

Stormfront has built in maps.

Documentation has been poor since the game started, yet there wasn't a problem with new players (then).

Playershops is bad game design and belongs in a separate topic titled 'GM mistakes'.

Plenty of people play without Psinet and Lich. I've only used psinet for 1/10th of my playing time.

It didn't scare me away from the game, but I actually experienced a lot of frustration early on because of bad documentation.

I'm curious, why do you think player shops are bad GD and a mistake?

PSInet adds a level of convenience and EFFICIENCY to my gameplay that I would find it very, very hard to give up. ESPECIALLY Atlas. :(

ETA: I think GS is overly complex for a game that REFUSES to reveal so much information. I think it would be no big deal if they'd just fucking give us the formulae behind everything.

[Mabus]

How many of you would shop in the player shops if you didn't have playershops.com?

How many of you would quit if you didn't have lich or psinet cheats?
I didn't use any of those things, but then again I did quit...

The more I read this the more I realize I need easily accessible maps for my own game.

[thefarmer]

I'm curious, why do you think player shops are bad GD and a mistake?

Without playershops.com, nobody would use them.

The fact that it requires a player made website to make it work, makes it bad game design. Then of course there's all the bugs, and silly things that needed updating when it was released but only now are some of them being done.

[DaCapn]

I wouldn't use playershops without the site though. I think Simu should have created some sort of searchable database for those anyway.

For real... They wouldn't have to make a character script-inspecting every single item in every single shop in every single town either. It would be simple for them to do it.

I always found the disclaimer signs at the playershop entrances to be funny. They certainly have the ability to guarantee every item there since they have access to the properties of all items.

I'd probably quit if there weren't maps. If nothing else, you need to know where the hell you CAN go.

[Fallen]

I think playershops would have an entirely different role than they do now, but they wouldn't necessarily be useless. I still tend to wander the shops (well, I used to) and window shop. I think more people would have done that. People would also more actively advertise their inventory on the boards and such. Heck, I bet people would make their OWN websites for their shops and put it in their sig. I think if Xygon didn't make the website, someone else would have. If for some odd reason someone didn't make one, they would still be used, but more for RP and random window shopping.

As for PSInet, we played without it at one point. I think it keeps people who were bored interested due to OOC chat. Those people who use it mainly for the functions may be able to enjoy the game more, but likely wouldn't have quit without it.

[Lumi]

Without playershops.com, nobody would use them.

The fact that it requires a player made website to make it work, makes it bad game design. Then of course there's all the bugs, and silly things that needed updating when it was released but only now are some of them being done.

Ahhh, gotcha. I thought you meant the decision to implement a player-run shop system was bad.

[thefarmer]

I think playershops would have an entirely different role than they do now, but they wouldn't necessarily be useless. I still tend to wander the shops (well, I used to) and window shop. I think more people would have done that. People would also more actively advertise their inventory on the boards and such. Heck, I bet people would make their OWN websites for their shops and put it in their sig. I think if Xygon didn't make the website, someone else would have. If for some odd reason someone didn't make one, they would still be used, but more for RP and random window shopping.

Possibly.

I'm not saying they wouldn't be used at all without the website. What I am saying is that the system was designed to function similar to what it does now but relying on Playershops.com. Without playershops, the system wouldn't have accomplished what it was intended to do, thus bad design.

[Fallen]

Eh, maybe. Or they would have produced something to make it kinda-sorta work, like they do everything else if people bitch enough.

[Maerit]

The playershop system, while convenient, does sort of damage the in-game community. Haggling on the amunet on the merchant channels, random 1 coin auctions, items of intense value being advertised frequently, and general merchanting over a public forum was a greater community builder. Now everything is done in a backroom privately through private tells on forums or email, no business is conducted in-game. I dislike that concept. Sure, you sometimes have to find the owner of the items in shops to work out deals, but most of the time you just contact them via their play.net account, or here on these forums.

Not to mention the limited information on items. Some sword you see for sale is 2.5mil, but its +20... and that's all you know. There's no info on its abilities or anything beyond the enchant, and none of the scrolls say anything. I find this to be true for at least 50% of the items I browse for through Playershops.com. Not that the website is to blame, but the people putting the items in their shop don't have sufficient resources or abilties to fully post the stats on items. That, or some owners are just a tad too lazy to bother.

I played this game for 10+ years off and on, and so many of the systems changed over time. That's fine, I don't mind asking questions and getting the insight from the guru's, but some of these things would blow the minds of a new person. The playershops business to a newbie would have to be revealed in some way. MMO communities are game-driven. Most "novice" players never read forums unless they are trapped or stuck in-game. Gemstone forces the use of forums and external player-driven websites for detailed information. Hell, Krakiipedia is more up-to-date and accurate than play.net's information, which is sad to say the least.

Anyway, it would be nice if they had a better structure for support. If they had built in maps that weren't pulled through 3rd party programs (stormfront maps do not work in all areas). If there was a better beastiary system that tied you to a map location that you could locate through a front-end link, or even a game-driven database of items for sale in playershops. Oh well, I still love the game's core system enough and the mechanics as well as playerbase to keep going strong. I'll just have to take my breaks when it starts to hurt my head like usual.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I think that the game in some ways is harder than it used to be. When I started playing GS, there were a lot more game lovers, that would put together tons and tons of guides and maps and things for other players to find. While there are probably more 'hard core' players now, they aren't the "let's get everyone to love GS as much as I do" type and more the power-gamer type.

As a new player, unless you get lucky enough to find someone to clue you in, you are probably not going to know about external sources of information like Psinet, or Lich, or playershops.com or even Tsoran's maps.

[Ignot]

and with all that complexity it's still the most boring game ever.

Player 1 "well, guess I better go hunting."
Player 1 types .Hunt
Player 1 alt tabs to WoW