help with my rogue fix-skill

[deadly]

(at level 27), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Two Weapon Combat..................| 155 55.131>>> 0 34 days, 5 hours, 1 minute
Armor Use..........................| 108 26>>> 28 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Shield Use.........................| 25 5>>> 29 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Combat Maneuvers...................| 154 54.566>>> 15 47 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes
Edged Weapons......................| 155 55.131>>> 0 34 days, 5 hours, 1 minute
Blunt Weapons......................| 0 0>>> 58 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Ambush.............................| 157 57.166>>> 52 7 days, 4 hours, 11 minutes
Physical Fitness...................| 102 24>>> 24
Dodging............................| 155 55.131>>> 29 16 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes
Arcane Symbols.....................| 0 0>>> 10 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Harness Power......................| 25 5>>> 5
Disarming Traps....................| 117 29>>> 87 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Picking Locks......................| 117 29>>> 87 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Stalking and Hiding................| 164 64.254>>> 42 14 days, 19 hours, 53 minutes
Perception.........................| 179 79.254>>> 58 15 days, 19 hours, 13 minutes
Climbing...........................| 70 15>>> 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15>>> 15
Pickpocketing......................| 152 52.267>>> 0 15 days, 11 hours, 19 minutes

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 0>>> 4 ASAP (will rise when points are available)

this is what im trying to do with my rogue right now he will have 1x dodge(going to shoot for 2x) and 2x perception 2x stalking and hiding up to 404 10 arcane symbol (whats the max i need for scarabs/glyphs?) 1x shield 1x armor up to brig then i will stop training for a while. 0.5x cman (gonna shoot for 1.5x-2x) almost 2x in ambush--

soon as i can fixskill i need to put him in a 3xpicking/disarm training plan that is able to hunt on his own. i dont wanna be a picker slave.

any help would be appreciated.

[Kitsun]

The only training path I know that can fit 3x disarm/pick without huge sacrifices to hunting ability is the archer/picker path.

[deadly]

so does anybody have a good OHB/shield training plan that will have 404 by 26 and have good picking skills?

i really wanna do the mace build... im trying to stay away from archery but if anybody has a good archery training plan as well i am open to suggestions. I do have a ipantor longbow and comp bow sitting in a locker that i could use.

just looking for a good 2.5x or 3x picker with 404 and is able to hunt well at 26th level.

so if you have any suggestions kitsun i would appreciate it.

[DoctorUnne]

Are your stats set for max TPs? That will help a lot. What about this as a core training plan? Hopefully you have the TPs to do this and can add around it if you have any spare.

3x Disarming 7/7
3x Lockpicking 7/7
2x Perception 0/3
2x Blunt Weapons 9/3
2x Hiding 3/3
1x Dodge 2/1
1x Ambush 2/2
1x Shield Use 4/0
1x Armor Use 5/0
1x Combat Maneuvers 4/4
1x Physical Fitness 3/0

That core plan is 46/30 which I think should leave enough points for you to get 404, a few ranks of harness power, and some climbing or first aid. If you have anything to spare you should add more ranks of dodge, but I think the above is certainly viable. If you need to cut from it you could go 0.5x CM.

[deadly]

any reason why you went 1x ambush and not 2x?

[DaCapn]

any reason why you went 1x ambush and not 2x?

Lack of training points.

[deadly]

would that hurt me ambushing from hiding much?

i dont wanna gimp my hunting so not sure if i should lean to the 3x picking and use a bow.... arg i hate these questions that keep floating in my head about my rogue!!! arg!

the above works just like you said i was able to get 404. so now that i dont need to train in spells any longer all those extra training points can go into other skills to bump them up to 2x right?

so now that i followed your training plan and got 404 and 3x picking how should i adjust my training to play catchup to a better build for combat?


Dark Elf Profession: Rogue (not shown)
Gender: Female Age: 52 Expr: 846342 Level: 27
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 99 (24) ... 99 (24)
Constitution (CON): 69 (4) ... 69 (4)
Dexterity (DEX): 99 (34) ... 99 (34)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 77 (3) ... 77 (3)
Aura (AUR): 76 (23) ... 76 (23)
Logic (LOG): 63 (6) ... 63 (6)
Intuition (INT): 63 (11) ... 63 (11)
Wisdom (WIS): 64 (12) ... 64 (12)
Influence (INF): 43 (-8) ... 43 (-8)

so thats somewhere around 56/40 right?

so thats 10 phy 10 mental that leaves me with extra per level right?

thanks for the help.

[kookiegod]

Again, gonna be totally contrary...

Go 3x picking, rockin...

2x whatever weapon, if you choose blunts, grab a shield and 1x it. If you do archery, 2x that and perception.

2.5x dodge or better...skip hiding, cause its a waste of time, time you spend hiding could be fried and unfrying.

Train to chain or mbp as soon as you can. Heavy armor rocks and you can add your own dodge bonus with the new armor mods, gets even better.

Grab some magical skills for scrolls and imbeds.

~Paul

[deadly]

do you get the same bonus to crit with open ambush as you would with hiding and then ambushing?

[droit]

No, which is why hiding is essential for ambushing with one handed weapons (unless the prey is particularly squishy). Ambushing from the open gives you half the crit weighting, I think. You also don't get the DS pushdown that helps you acheive that all-important 1st crit rank.

[thefarmer]

1 Aimed strike using AMBUSH - Full crit modifier
2 Silent Strike (may not be aimed) - Full crit modifier
3 Unaimed strike using AMBUSH - half crit modifier + extra RT
4 ATTACK from hiding - Half crit modifier


Aimed strike using AMBUSH - Full crit modifier
Silent Strike (may not be aimed) - Full crit modifier
Regular attack from hiding - Half crit modifier

(The DS pushdown is the same in all cases.)

Abbreviated and two separate posts by Ildran

[DoctorUnne]

would that hurt me ambushing from hiding much?

i dont wanna gimp my hunting so not sure if i should lean to the 3x picking and use a bow.... arg i hate these questions that keep floating in my head about my rogue!!! arg!

the above works just like you said i was able to get 404. so now that i dont need to train in spells any longer all those extra training points can go into other skills to bump them up to 2x right?

so now that i followed your training plan and got 404 and 3x picking how should i adjust my training to play catchup to a better build for combat?


Dark Elf Profession: Rogue (not shown)
Gender: Female Age: 52 Expr: 846342 Level: 27
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 99 (24) ... 99 (24)
Constitution (CON): 69 (4) ... 69 (4)
Dexterity (DEX): 99 (34) ... 99 (34)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 77 (3) ... 77 (3)
Aura (AUR): 76 (23) ... 76 (23)
Logic (LOG): 63 (6) ... 63 (6)
Intuition (INT): 63 (11) ... 63 (11)
Wisdom (WIS): 64 (12) ... 64 (12)
Influence (INF): 43 (-8) ... 43 (-8)

so thats somewhere around 56/40 right?

so thats 10 phy 10 mental that leaves me with extra per level right?

thanks for the help.

I've heard 1x ambush is just fine unless you're trying to aim for the eyes or use low damage factor weapons. I've always been close to 2x so I can't draw upon personal experience. My suggestion is start at 1x ambush and try that for a while and see how effective you are but don't spend the spare points. If after trying it out for a time you feel you need more ambush then get more, otherwise get some more dodge.

Also I don't think open ambushing gives you any crit weighting, although I'm not 100% sure. It seems though that every time the wind pulls me out of hiding right before I ambush I end up with a very weak hit, even if the endroll is decent. I know attacking from hiding gives half the crit weighting.

Either way your AS will be nothing special with 1x CM so having the crit weighting and DS pushdown from ambushing will be pretty important.

I don't think you're gimping your hunting with that plan though. You'll still be a pretty effective ambusher and have decent DS. You won't be a beast but you'll definitely be able to hunt like-level pretty easily.

I might get some AS boosting CMs to help offset the 1x CM though, such as wspec or surge. Also wear the heaviest armor you can, which at your level is brig.

[Allahinside]

Honestly, it's not really important to be 3x in picking/disarm.

If you're doing it becasue you want to pick way over your head for whatever reason, fine.

If you want to hunt and pick your own boxes, and still be able to pick well over your level, you only need 2x and lores.

This may be different at higher levels, but honestly by the time you get there you'll be able to fixskills again and have had all the lower levels with better hunting ability. I'm 2x with lores and its uncommon that I can't open any box even 10+ levels over my head when I pick for my buddies.

Also, I wouldn't recommend you go any less than 1x in CM. I recently fixskilled into metal breastplate from brigandine (which required me to drop my stalking/hiding to 2ishx instead of 2.75ish) and I'm finding manuvers to be invaluable. It's nice to be able to have a bunch of ranks of dirtkick to aid me in hiding from perceptive creatures in combonation with all of my other skills.

[Mtenda]

Ambushing from the open gives you absolutely no crit weighting. What Farmer posted above applies to hiding only. Do not skip out on hiding for many reasons. Mainly because it is your second best defense and half of your best offense (which is also your best defense). Also, keep in mind that at your level only being 1x ambush will have you hitting your target less than 60 percent of the time. I would do whatever it takes to get to 2x ambush/2x hide so that you hit your target more, have more pushdown and weighting, and don't get rocked after you miss. Fortunately, at your level most creatures have high round times.

After ambushing skills I would prioritize armor and get into MBP as soon as possible.

If you are casting 404 prior to detecting (you can also cast 402 prior) and are 3x in disarming traps, then you don't need to be 2x in perception. 1x would be just fine. You might wanna go back to 2x when you start facing creature manuevers more but that's a long way off.

You could go without CM at all for a while to save some points. It won't impress the ladies much but it's doable.

[deadly]

all very very good info.

any ideas on what cmans would be the most useful for me? i know i want disarm ranks (planing on buying a expensive mace HCW so i dont wanna lose it)
feint... and as someone mentioned dirtkick... not sure if i want shadow mastery or not. what would be more helpful shadow mastery or dirtkick? i want to get to 2x stalking and hiding as soon as possible. and 2x ambush.

however the above info is all about getting 3x picking and 404 as quick as possible. so with the above posted training plan and my current TP per level i end up with an extra 10phy 10ment per level after 26 which should help me fill out those extra ranks that i will need asap.

i really appreciate all your help guys. i dont want a rogue stuck with skills that i dont like for the next year so all this help is very useful. i just really wanted a 3x blunt user as a bit of change from a TWC full combat rogue(previous was a ohe combat rogue with a dir hafted waraxe) so kinda hoping i can find a nice hcw mace to use soon and have some fun smashing skulls

[Victorj]

Looking at your stats, you could do a standard cookie cutter blunt build.

1x armor
1x shield
2x blunts
1x CM
1x ambush
1x PF
2x dodge
2x hide
2x perception
3x pick
3x disarm
5 climb
5 swim
4 harness
404

and have 1 ptp left over. I don't think the 1x ambush would effect you that much, because with a mace, you're not gonna be aiming for the eyes. Aiming at the head is much easier. I had a ranger who 1xed ambush/2x precept/2x hide with a handaxe, and I had no problems hunting at 25.

[deadly]

thanks victor thats exactly what im going to shoot for.

now does anybody have a HCW mace?

or the prem points to get weighting added to a perfect mace?

[AMUSED1]

thanks victor thats exactly what im going to shoot for.

now does anybody have a HCW mace?

or the prem points to get weighting added to a perfect mace?

You can't put weighting on weapons with premium points. You can only pad armors.

[deadly]

awe crap ..... :{

[AMUSED1]

But there's always major festivals to try and get it done at. CFF, and possibly this year's EG.

[DaCapn]

any ideas on what cmans would be the most useful for me? i know i want disarm ranks (planing on buying a expensive mace HCW so i dont wanna lose it)

Disarming creatures are the exception rather than the rule (especially at that point in the game). If you plan to go against them, bring something more disposable. I only know of two creatures near you in level that have a disarm effect: shan and vesperti.

I'm sure crit weighted weapons are nice but you're already getting a crit modifier from ambushing and you'll have some assistance from your damage type. I've never used one myself. I always thought the weighting was more useful for the non-ambushers.

Cman-wise in general:
If you're sitting at 1x CM, you'll want to dabble and take cheaper cmans. I'd encourage you to just forget serious training in smastery for 30 levels or something. The best benefits are at ranks 4 & 5 (24 and 35 points respectively). You can't master it yet, and it will cost you almost all of your cman points to get rank 4.

My CM picks:
Evade Mastery - 2 ranks. Linger at brig for a while to save on training points while you recover from training up to 404. Especially if you're going to skimp at all on dodge. If you skimped on dodge, I'd put the points there. Otherwise, go for CM or ambush.
Dirt Kick - 4 ranks. Overall, I think dirt kick is basically unmatched by any rogue offensive cman: Cheap training cost, cheap stamina cost, low RT, and stance independent. And for the effects: inflicts RT, can even stun, will allow you to hide from incredibly perceptive creatures, and ensures that your next ambush will NOT be evaded.

That leaves a couple spare points. You can start working towards smastery if you want or finishing off the existing ones. Personally, I'd master dirtkick. It's cheaper than grabbing 2 ranks of smastery and probably more useful. Oscuro said that rogue CM costs will get a review (the good kind). Evade mastery and dirt kick will surely be untouched. Smastery... you never know. So if that happens soon, it could change things.

[Ker_Thwap]

I found rank 5 dirt kick next to useless.

- It did not allow me to hide from shan, waern or stone mastiffs, until I was well past them in levels.
- The occasional stuns had no consistency to the RT, it could last a second, or 10 seconds. You just couldn't count on the stun lasting.
- The effect to lowered creature AS was only useful on when the the total roll was over 138(ish) which means you still had a good chance of the creature attacking you at full strength. The induced RT was just too short on most successful attacks.
- I could not consistently dirt kick any creature at like level or above.
- It was killer against lower level creatures so it was fine for helping out newbies.

[DoctorUnne]

Combat mobility was the best 15 CM points I ever spent.

[DaCapn]

I found rank 5 dirt kick next to useless.

- It did not allow me to hide from shan, waern or stone mastiffs, until I was well past them in levels.
- The occasional stuns had no consistency to the RT, it could last a second, or 10 seconds. You just couldn't count on the stun lasting.
- The effect to lowered creature AS was only useful on when the the total roll was over 138(ish) which means you still had a good chance of the creature attacking you at full strength. The induced RT was just too short on most successful attacks.
- I could not consistently dirt kick any creature at like level or above.
- It was killer against lower level creatures so it was fine for helping out newbies.

This does not correlate at all with my experience. I was in Pinefar forests for 5+ levels (swarmy perceptive creatures) and it couldn't have been done without dirt kick.

I'll give you that the induced RT is unreliable but in terms of successful execution of a dirtkick, it had to be >80% against like-level and barely above-level creatures. (If you're up-hunting by 5 levels, you may have to tolerate 50%). My experience here was mostly against sabre-tooth tigers. As far as the impact of success on the perception of the creature, the polar bears best illustrate that.

This is how I'd say things sized up with the polar bears for me:
5 level advantage, 2x hide, smastery active (5 ranks) - <20% hide chance
5 level advantage, 2x hide, smastery active (5 ranks), dirt kicked (5 ranks) - >90% hide chance
15 level advantage, 2.5x hide, smastery active (5 ranks), armor stealth (2 ranks, brig) - 50-75% hide chance

[Ker_Thwap]

I've only been to Pinefar to work on cheap shots and sweep, never really hunted there.

Maybe it's a matter of Pinefar creatures being set up to be susceptible to maneuvers?

My experience with swarmy perceptive areas such as Shan was that by the time I got dirtkick to work, several more creatures had entered the room casting nasty spells at me. I wasn't uphunting there at all.

With Waern (at like level), by the time I got a dirt kick off, an Eidolon would come in and fry me. I could successfully dirt kick them when I was 10 levels past them and they were no longer a threat anyway.

Same thing with Stronghold, by the time I dirt kicked one mastiff and got into hiding another mastiff or shaman would walk in. Even with a good silent strike, I'd get sniffed out of hiding the very next round in a roomful of creatures. Again, wasn't uphunting.

Maybe I picked the three worst areas in game for dirt kick, but it didn't work in the only places I ever needed it. It was just more effective and faster to leave the room and let the critters come to me, or peer and sneak into my targets. For that matter I found it even easier to just avoid shan entirely and uphunt in bonespear avoiding the waern.

I played with dirt kick and yeti a lot. Yeti aren't at all perceptive, but they were hard to hit at first. I'd wait out their first attack, if it was a maneuver based attack, I'd likely wiff on them and they'd hammer me in my RT, if it was a normal attack, I could hide and leg them nearly all of the time.

So, I began dirt kicking them to amuse myself while I was waiting for them to attack, and maybe hoping the AS lowering feature would be handy. It was handy, but only if the final roll was high enough (136 or 138, I forget which) to make the effect last long enough. When it worked properly, it was a small time saver for me, because I could just dirt kick and go into attack mode, without having to wait for it to attack me first.

It also doesn't work against undead.

I traded in my dirtkick for a few levels of feint, coup, and will be going for mobility next. Don't regret it at all.

[Danical]

Go archery because it's ridiculous and it complements the perception you'll be picking up for boxes. Personally, I always advocate for 3x dodge and dropping hiding altogether. Get into higher AsG when points allow and just open snipe with a longbow. Grab enough MIU to use haste imbeds and go to town.


Maybe I picked the three worst areas in game for dirt kick, but it didn't work in the only places I ever needed it. It was just more effective and faster to leave the room and let the critters come to me, or peer and sneak into my targets. For that matter I found it even easier to just avoid shan entirely and uphunt in bonespear avoiding the waern.

Unfortunately, those probably are some of the 3 worst ares in the game. Shan are pretty rough creatures at like level; they're heinously perceptive for whatever reason. Obviously, waern are undead AND animals so their perception is astronomical.

How much hiding do you have? With the professional bonus, racial bonus, and possibility of shadow mastery, you should be a hiding beast!

I think the very best aspect of Dkick is the ability to use it in full defensive. I've always wanted to use Dshroud with my rogue but it's just not worth the cost:benefit. :( Hopefully, that will be reviewed.

[Ker_Thwap]

Well, my rogue is pretty much a hiding beast. That could well be why dirt kick seems useless to me. Your mileage may vary.

Coup de grace on the other hand is the funnest thing in game.

[Roll result: 174 (open d100: 91) Bonus: 10]
You lunge towards the minotaur magus, intending to finish him off!
You make a powerful double thrust with your weapons at his torso!
Poke to the abdomen leaves gaping hole and quickly growing pool of blood on the floor! Woo hoo.
One last prolonged bovine moan escapes from the minotaur magus as he falls still against the floor.

[deadly]

i really wanted to be different going the OHB route. but as noted above the open sniping with the 3x dodge and high ASG does sound tempting.

anybody have a good template for a open sniping 3x picking rogue?

[Lord Orbstar]

Armor Use 140 (1.5X)
Ranged Weapons 192 (2.0X)
Combat Maneuvers 96 (1.0X)
Ambush 191 (2.0X)
Physical Fitness 95 (1.0X)
Dodging 192 (2.0X)
Climbing 20 (0.2X)
Swimming 50 (0.5X)
Stalking and Hiding 288 (3.0X)
Perception 192 (2.0X)
Arcane Symbols 10 (0.1X)
Magic Item Use 10 (0.1X)
Harness Power 30 (0.3X)
Spell Research 28 (0.3X)
Minor Elemental 25 (0.3X)
Minor Spirit 3 (0.0X)



This is what I am considering FIXSKILLing to. I will be taking the Armor Skill for stealth mastery and hunting in something other than plate armor. I am wearing an awesome suit of 4x double leather, unpadded. Wait, that sucks. :wtf: I do have some metal breastplate and unspectacular plate armor, but I would like to try the "never be unhidden and just kill" tactic.

Oh, my rogue is 95th level. I want to be able to hunt and live through cautious movement and choosing targets. My experience in the rift and other murderous grounds is old, out of date and I remember nothing. I have never been to Nelemar or other spots and will be a deed burner for sure. I am trying to mitigate that by making best use of the shadows our profession will allow.

I will take ShadowMastery 5 for a CMAN and surge of strength 3 for RT of course.

I also have a level 56 rogue I am making a 3x picker/disarmer so he will be doing all my boxes and be an east tower professional almost exclusively.

All my roguish experience has been with two weapon ambush style, and of course sword and board back in GS3.

What makes it all more difficult is I type everything. I do not have macros or scripts other than what is imbedded in the Stormfront and a couple movement scripts. It makes me get carpal tunnel syndrome when I am picking lots of boxes in the tower since I type each command, plus roleplay/interact!

What do you all think? I do not think the "open sniping" 3x dodge thing works at the upper levels. Sounds like a lovefest with Lorminstra's temple. Also, any stormfront scripts would be great. I do not know what/how PSINET or a LICH is.


My level 0 Stats were the suck at:

STR 92
CON 90
DEX 92
AGL 91
DIS 55
AUR 55
LOG 50
INT 62
WIS 52
INF 21

[Lord Orbstar]

and Deadly, that is generic you used a nighstalker like me :P

[DaCapn]

i really wanted to be different going the OHB route. but as noted above the open sniping with the 3x dodge and high ASG does sound tempting.

anybody have a good template for a open sniping 3x picking rogue?

Open would not be sniping.

So let's get this straight... you want 3x picking, ranged, 3x dodge, and high AsG. You're asking for a template for a template. You've already picked almost all of the skills:

armor >1x
combat maneuvers 1x
ranged 2x
ambush 2x
fitness 1x
dodging 3x
disarm 3x
picking 3x
perception 2x

The italicized skills were not mentioned but are assumed (Ambush: ranged AS; Fitness: general; Perception: picking, ranged AS). The only thing left is CM.

The only problem is, there's not really points for that. You'll have to pull back either picking or dodge to 2.5x.

[Victorj]

Yeah, it's hard to make an open archer rogue and 3x picking at lower levels. Usually, people wait till mid levels (50ish) to make open archers, since you don't have that many spare points, and you'd probably want to be in plate armor for open archery. If you're gonna go the archery route, you'd probably want to actually snipe from hiding, ie.

1x armor
2x ranged
2x ambush
2x preception
1.5x dodge
1x pt
3x hide
3x pick
3x disarm
4 harness
4 spells
whatever in swim/climb

until you get the points for open archery.

[deadly]

ya i think the safe bet for me to be able to be a good locksmith and hunter would be the above post by victorj. but i will have a hard time deciding between OHB or ranged weapon.

[Danical]

You really shouldn't need to 3x picking skills to be proficient for like level boxes - especially with 403/404.

If you're trying to go over your head though, for other people, then that's a different story.

[deadly]

ya its mostly for my main char whos 45 and for my friends. so i would really like to be 3x picking and be able to hunt well on my own solo. so the 3x hiding should hopefully keep me safe.

[Danical]

Do this:

Try only 2x picking skills with 403/404 and see how that goes with your 45ish level boxes and keep the rest of the points in reserve. If you don't like it then spend the reserve points on 3x skills. Otherwise, just throw the points in more combat related skills. Or maybe just 2.5x? Regardless, keep the points in reserve and test it out before going full bore.

[DaCapn]

At level 27, 2x picking with 403/404 ought to do you well, what is the 45 level character hunting?

Lock/trap difficulty is totally creature-based and not just level-based. (For example, early 30's abandoned farm boxes are much harder than 40's ice giants). But you'll probably be well off.

[deadly]

hags in rivers rest and roaters from the landing for now.

but will be hunting in Teras isle soon.