Official: Enhancive Update

[Fallen]

Enhancives which boost a player's resource pool (mana, health, spirit, or stamina) will no longer affect a player's current pool when the effect/item is added or removed. There is an exception to this rule. If you lose a bonus and your current pool is above the new maximum, it will subtract out the amount of the lost bonus, but will not take you lower than your new maximum. e.g. You have a normal maximum of 100 mana with a bonus of +25, totaling 125. If you have 120 mana at the time of the lost benefit, it would reduce your current mana to 100, to match the new maximum of 100. However, if you had 150 mana at the time of the loss, it would only reduce your current mana to 125.

This will ensure players do not suffer a loss of their resources at a critical time (e.g. during a hunt and your mana-well potion ends) and that they will not suffer penalties for going below zero of their current pool (nerve damage from loss of mana, death from loss of hit points, etc).

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

This message was originally posted in Game Design Discussions, Items and Inventory. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=11&message=1800 (http://www.play.net/forums/redirect.asp?URL=http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=11&message=1800)

[Fallen]

..I think..this is good? No more spirit deaths from wracking to 1 spirit after using a spirit potion?

[Abyran'sa]

Good update from my perspective. I have had manawell potions cause nerve damage a time or two, once the issue nearly led to a problem.

I can only imagine that the health and spirit problems would be much more fatal.

Sereg's puppeteer

[Rolton-Sammich]

Sucks as far as I'm concerned. But I was using enhancive for spirit in a very specific way, to boost my spirit up one point.

That meant that if I wanted to wrack twice in a row I could pop on the enhancive and wrack again, then take off the enhancive as soon as I got another spirit back.

That way the enhancive is in use for the minimum amount of time necessary. But I guess if I want to burn points now I'll switch to spirit regen.

[Fallen]

Yeah. Had it explained to me. It is a gigantic nerf to my build. QQ and all that. Glad I am quitting.

[droit]

If I'm understanding this right, say you have 10 spirit and drink a greater mana well potion; you'll have 10 out of 13 spirit, not 13 out of 13 spirit. I think temp boosters just got nerfed, though the fix to them wearing off is nice.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Correct. But it's not really a fix to wearing off... it has to go one way or the other.

Either you get the original set up: a boost (10/10 -> 13/13 spirit) and it takes them away (3/13 spirit -> 0/10 spirit)...

...or you get the way it works now: no boost (10/10 -> 10/13) and it doesn't get taken away (3/13 spirit -> 3/10 spirit).

[AMUSED1]

A new reply to the replies so far on the officials:

In general, items that boost a player's maximum resource pool are not intended for instant gain; that's the purpose of +current pool items.

Overall, I think far more people are suffering from ending effects which cause a sudden drop in a resource than say users of a spirit glove.

There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. We're open to feedback.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Rolton-Sammich]

...is there a +current pool spirit item?

[TheLastShamurai]

Now everytime I cast Vigor my max health goes up, but my total health doesn't go up with it. :(

[thefarmer]

>health
You seem to be in one piece.

Maximum Health Points: 148
Remaining Health Points: 148

Maximum Spirit Points: 10
Remaining Spirit Points: 10

Maximum Stamina Points: 117
Remaining Stamina Points: 117

>1616
Voodoo '1616' to 'INCANT 1616'.
You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Vigor...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
Vigor (1616) starts for 30m. [+10CON, +26MaxHP]
The blood in your veins thickens and pulses with renewed life!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>health
You seem to be in one piece.

Maximum Health Points: 186
Remaining Health Points: 148
You are feeling pretty good.

Maximum Spirit Points: 10
Remaining Spirit Points: 10

Maximum Stamina Points: 122
Remaining Stamina Points: 117

[Bothra]

This is good for me since I use a staff with a max mana boost. Now when I put it away at the end of a hunt (or an unfortunate disarm) I don't fry my nerves. I am using it to carry some extra mana into battle and to be able to get that when I wrack.

[thefarmer]

This is good for me since I use a staff with a max mana boost. Now when I put it away at the end of a hunt (or an unfortunate disarm) I don't fry my nerves.

Don't go down below your normal mana level and you wouldn't fry your nerves.

[Bothra]

Edited to not be a dick.

I guess I let blue bar at the bottom of the screen tempt me into my last kill. FINISH HIM!!! Just when I was just getting used to not putting away my staff.

[thefarmer]

Genuis comment of the year.

I guess I let blue bar at the bottom of the screen tempt me into my last kill. FINISH HIM!!!

If people didn't complain about frying their nerves... the change wouldn't have been suggested, then implemented.

[Fallen]

Anyone else find this mod to be mostly retarded? It made it harder for people to kill themselves via alchemy items, but otherwise fucked up a lot of other things.

[thefarmer]

Anyone else find this mod to be mostly retarded? It made it harder for people to kill themselves via alchemy items, but otherwise fucked up a lot of other things.

Yup.

There's been several posts (mine included) that are against this change.

[TheWitch]

To the lowest common denominator out there who pouted and carried on because due their own lack of ability in basic four function math, they died, thank you very much.

Once again, the standards have been lowered to suit you.

[Izzy]

Don't go down below your normal mana level and you wouldn't fry your nerves.

Then what's the point of having the extra mana?

[NocturnalRob]

Once again, the standards have been lowered to suit you.
mediocrity abounds

[TheWitch]

Then what's the point of having the extra mana?

It's called resource management. It's called, anticipating your mana needs based on not just your enhanced mana but your base mana. And planning your hunt and other activities accordingly.

There was no issue until the end of the duration on these things, which a person playing this game should be competent enough to at least estimate and compensate for. Yes, sometimes shit happens and even if you did compensate, you might have your hunt ended or even die.

It's called consequences paid occasionally, for a benefit used frequently.

Which have been taken away now, in favor of penalizing everyone - both the competent and the incompetent - with more timesinks. Waiting around for spirit to build so you don't have AS/DS penalties, etc., which effectively reduces significantly in some cases the duration of these benefits.

This had the side effect of nerfing several spells (as the Vigor demonstration showed), just so people can be less responsible for their own actions.

LCD, indeed. Mediocrity, indeed.

[BriarFox]

I wonder if this has also nerfed Assume Aspect's already limited utility, since I could assume Owl aspect for +1 max spirit, or Bear for +30 health or so. I'll have to try it shortly.

[Fallen]

I wonder if this has also nerfed Assume Aspect's already limited utility, since I could assume Owl aspect for +1 max spirit, or Bear for +30 health or so. I'll have to try it shortly.

Laughably enough..it did. They wanted to fix 312, looks like, so they rolled in this wizbang change and f'd over a bunch of other people.

[BriarFox]

Laughably enough..it did.

Oh, for fuck's sake ...

[Fallen]

Yeah. They're really on the ball lately with these "bug" fixes. First Griffins and now this one.

[BriarFox]

Yeah. They're really on the ball lately with these "bug" fixes. First Griffins and now this one.

I'm about to cause a ruckus about Estild's stupidity fucking up an already useless ranger spell.

[Fallen]

I agree 100% 650 was on the very cusp of ever being worth cast. It has now firmly been pushed past the point of suck.

[Beguiler]

This is such fail.

Did they actually MEAN such a far reaching nerf, or did they have their blinders on while they made this change. What a PITA.

[BriarFox]

I agree 100% 650 was on the very cusp of ever being worth cast. It has now firmly been pushed past the point of suck.

I posted in Game Design demanding it be changed back, cross-posted to the Ranger board saying we needed to make a ruckus, and emailed Mestys and Lusus.

I really doubt Estild had any idea what he was fucking over when he made these changes.

[Fallen]

Sure he did. He was fixing 312. Fuck Vigor, Assume aspect, and all +mana/spirit/health/stamina items.

[thefarmer]

Reposted stupidity from the officials.


Re: Enhancive Update - Assume Aspect Nerf Tangent · on 5/6/2009 10:29:29 AM 1841


Reply
>>Is there really nothing you guys can spend your time and energy on that makes the game MORE fun, not less?<<

No, I think they try to make the game work and make sense.

This change works and makes sense to me. I don't see why wearing a +10 max mana enhancive should give me +10 mana or a +2 spirit enhancive should give me +2 spirit. There are separate potions that in fact refill mana and spirit and they are available as well. The potential for abuse is extreme, and that potential was being realized, it seems from the comments here.

-E (EULOGIA)

[BriarFox]

Reposted stupidity from the officials.

Yeah, that posted was ridonkulous.

[eulogia]

Reposted stupidity from the officials.

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

[BriarFox]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

Do you have any idea how many other things this change affected? It nerfed 1616, 650, and destroyed wracking builds.

[Winter's Kiss]

Well.. I'm glad I'm following Evarin and Xandalf after CCF. One less reason for me to stay around. It's slowly ticking down.. Bit by bit.. Until there will be nothing left. This is a ridiculous waste of money and I'm not even that impressed with the past 2 runs of CCF. So anyway..


Hurray for the first real cosmetic spells ever. Woot for 650. :tool:

[Winter's Kiss]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan


And it's fucking morons like you that just solidify the fact that Gemstone now officially is one of the WORST MMORPG on the net. Because you don't look past your little nose and "exploits" to see the whole picture of what they've done. So.. Yeah. I agree with you. You're an idiot. Carry on.

[Fallen]

This wasn't exploiting ANYTHING. The game was balanced as of the time of the release. They already capped the benefits you can get via enhancives in order to achieve this balance. Basically, they didn't like how the current enhancive system worked with a spell and some alchemy potions, so they implimented this change. They didn't think of how it would effect everyone else.

They're using the time tested Simu method of balance. Release something in an unbalanced form, wait for bitching to reach a suitable level to justify having to tweak it. Tweak until the bitching trails off, and tada, you have your nerf that people are happy to get because it isn't quite a stupid as when it first came out.

[TheWitch]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

I have a newsflash for you: People play the game for different reasons.

Wonderful, it doesn't effect you. Then STFU, because it won't effect you if they change it back, either.

All of these items and potions, etc., have two consistent underlying themes:
A. signifcant cost in time, effort and silver to have, make and/or maintain.
B. hard caps on the amount that could be enhanced and/or cooldowns on the frequency of use.

People made the choice to spend their time, effort and silvers based on one set of parameters.

Now those parameters have changed, making their time/effort/silver investment worth less than it was.

And you can't see a problem with that?
Or with spells being nerfed?
:club:

[Rathain]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

What you said on the officials was pretty sensible from a functional mechanics standpoint. But for many players who have seen and done just about everything that they possibly can in the game, the game is reduced to bending and utilizing mechanics to their characters advantage to establish some semblance of unique personal identity. For whatever reason, it gives players a sense of accomplishment and a reason to keep paying to play a game of redundancy. Once you remove that, there really isn't a reason for them to keep playing. It's not knee jerk wailing - in many cases, a decent amount of investment in time and effort was put forth and some just met the end of the rope for this particular gaming experience.

[Fallen]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

Regardless of what you think of the enhancive system or the alchemy system, this changed just nerfed the hell out of two spells: Assume Aspect and Vigor. These two spells need to be addressed. Even those thinking this is a good change on the whole should realize this fact.

Assume aspect as a freaken 2 minute per aspect duration. If you have to wait for your spirit to regen as part of those two minutes, the spell in that aspect is damn useless. Same thing with health. You shouldn't have to chew an acantha leaf every time you want to use one of your spells. That's fucking retarded.

YAY BALANCE and all that, but Eul, you should at least recognize that some people got unfairly nerfed by that change that weren't "abusing" a damn thing.

[Swami71]

The benefit is not blowing your nerves or spirit death right? Thats kind of a good thing. Put your spirit enhansives on and by the time your out of mana you should gain some/all of your spirit and not have to worry when your low on spirit. That does suck for rangers since 650 only last 10 min anyways.

[Winter's Kiss]

Regardless of what you think of the enhancive system or the alchemy system, this changed just nerfed the hell out of two spells: Assume Aspect and Vigor. These two spells need to be addressed. Even those thinking this is a good change on the whole should realize this fact.

Assume aspect as a freaken 2 minute per aspect duration. If you have to wait for your spirit to regen as part of those two minutes, the spell in that aspect is damn useless. Same thing with health. You shouldn't have to chew an acantha leaf every time you want to use one of your spells. That's fucking retarded.

YAY BALANCE and all that, but Eul, you should at least recognize that some people got unfairly nerfed by that change that weren't "abusing" a damn thing.




Considering the new trend... EVERY FUCKING NEW RANGER IS A GOD DAMN DARK ELF! YAY!

Know what that means? Oh yeah.. IT TAKES TWO MINUTES TO GET BACK ONE FUCKING SPIRIT.. I LOSE 2 spirit when I cast Owl Aspect. Let's see..


After casting 650 - Owl

>spirit
Spirit Points: 10 Remaining: 8
>

Aspect lasts 2 minutes. Takes 2 minutes to get ONE spirit back. Well, that's useless.


After casting 650 - Bear

>heal
You seem to be in one piece.

Maximum Health Points: 179
Remaining Health Points: 134
You are feeling light headed.


Oh shit.. Would you look at that? I'm light headed. Know what that means? Oh yeah.. AS/DS PENALTY.. Not only that, but I also "lost" stamina on this one too since it boosts it but I'm only at my base max stamina and not the enhanced.


* This spell sucked enough. What they did just made 650 totally useless for the 2 main Aspects I use to hunt with. 2 down.. 2 to go.. Maybe they'll nerf the SKILLS part of it too! Yippee! Isn't it amazing that they always nerf the people that don't abuse a god damn thing? Shit.. I barely open my mouth to complain about ANYTHING on the boards.. (Oh yeah, that's right, I don't at all.) Well.. Agreed. This is one big FUCK YOU to those of us that were actually happy with how things were before.

This is also one of those.. Fuck you, Simu. You just lost another .. Oh.. 7 accounts. Bye.

[Allereli]

don't you see the big picture guys? Mana bread is improved!!!

[Fallen]

don't you see the big picture guys? Mana bread is improved!!!

If you cast the spell natively, otherwise, go fuck yourself!

[BigWorm]

Why not just increase you new current to be the same % of the old current, i.e. if you had 10/10 spirit (100%), you would have 12/12 spirit (100%) if you wore a +2 max spirit enhancer, but if you had 5/10 (50%), you would end up with 6/12 (50%). Removing would work the same way so that if you are down to 1% of your enhanced capacity, you would have 1% of your normal capacity if you removed the item.

[Allereli]

If you cast the spell natively, otherwise, go fuck yourself!

my empath can cast some mean bread! (my last account is closed tonight)

Good luck everyone with the fight, they really fucked up here.

[Winter's Kiss]

Yeah.. No kidding. I'm with you, Aller. After CCF I'm out of this sinking ship. I can't handle being screwed every single time I turn around here. This is getting old. Maybe I should just break down and join WoW..

[Izzy]

Regardless of what you think of the enhancive system or the alchemy system, this changed just nerfed the hell out of two spells: Assume Aspect and Vigor. These two spells need to be addressed. Even those thinking this is a good change on the whole should realize this fact.

Assume aspect as a freaken 2 minute per aspect duration. If you have to wait for your spirit to regen as part of those two minutes, the spell in that aspect is damn useless. Same thing with health. You shouldn't have to chew an acantha leaf every time you want to use one of your spells. That's fucking retarded.

YAY BALANCE and all that, but Eul, you should at least recognize that some people got unfairly nerfed by that change that weren't "abusing" a damn thing.

So they just need to do the same thing as they did to 312: change the benefits from 650/1616 to add to current rather than max, so you get those hp/sp/etc immediately.

Edit: I'm starting to think that it's a good thing everyone is leaving. At least now the people that are still playing aren't the people that don't cry and complain every time something changes. Clearly I don't love every change that simu makes, (and definitely agree there are things that need to be addressed with this change), but I'll be god damned if I don't hate whining even more.

[Winter's Kiss]

So they just need to do the same thing as they did to 312: change the benefits from 650/1616 to add to current rather than max, so you get those hp/sp/etc immediately.

Edit: I'm starting to think that it's a good thing everyone is leaving. At least now the people that are still playing aren't the people that don't cry and complain every time something changes. Clearly I don't love every change that simu makes, (and definitely agree there are things that need to be addressed with this change), but I'll be god damned if I don't hate whining even more.


Well, I doubt they'll even think to make that change any time soon, with their record. I'm just tired of trying to change my way of playing every single time they decide it's time to change something.

And sadly, Izzy.. The only thing you'll be left with are the people that never leave for whatever reason and the whiners (Who will slowly out weight those of us that don't.) So like I said.. I'm getting out while the gettings good. I can't even justify spending the money on GS anymore. I now have a 50th level cosmetic spell, yay. How special for us rangers.

- Formerly the player of Lunaryna & Torianne.

[Danical]

To be fair, Estild did say he was open to feedback.

Whether that's blowing smoke up our ass or not remains to be seen.

[Winter's Kiss]

(neg) Official: Enhancive... 05-06-2009 12:12 PM You whine a lot for a non-whiner

Yeah.. Cause I totally post 10x more than anyone else on these boards to bitch and whine. Right. Kudo's to your perceptiveness Anonymous.

[droit]

I predict it'll change to the proportional system that has been suggested. They like to implement nerfs that go too far, then update them to something more reasonable to make people think that they're doing us a favor.

[Odysia]

I'm about to cause a ruckus about Estild's stupidity fucking up an already useless ranger spell.

So, I'm not sure if I understand this.

I've got enhansives that give me Max 11 spirit. When I use Owl aspect, I get 13 Max spirit, then I wrack and have 8 spirit for those 3 whole big minutes . . .

What's changing? Someone explain it to me because I'm totally confused.

[droit]

When you use Owl aspect, your maximum spirit capacity rises to 13, but your actual current spirit points remain at 11.

[Winter's Kiss]

So, I'm not sure if I understand this.

I've got enhansives that give me Max 11 spirit. When I use Owl aspect, I get 13 Max spirit, then I wrack and have 8 spirit for those 3 whole big minutes . . .

What's changing? Someone explain it to me because I'm totally confused.

You didn't read my post? It showed what happens. I posted what happened to Owl and Bear aspects.

[Odysia]

When you use Owl aspect, your maximum spirit capacity rises to 13, but your actual current spirit points remain at 11.


What if I've wracked? It'll still be at 8, right, because Owl is added for those 2 min, or is this what the change is, it'll be 6 instead?

If that's the case, I'll be right along with you in the pissed off category. I'll never have a use for 650 again.

[Odysia]

You didn't read my post? It showed what happens. I posted what happened to Owl and Bear aspects.

It didn't make sense to me, sorry.

[Danical]

So, I'm not sure if I understand this.

I've got enhansives that give me Max 11 spirit. When I use Owl aspect, I get 13 Max spirit, then I wrack and have 8 spirit for those 3 whole big minutes . . .

What's changing? Someone explain it to me because I'm totally confused.

When you use Owl, you'll have 11/13 spirit (with your enhancive).

If you wrack, you'll be at 6/13 spirit, not 8/13.

Now you'll experience the following:



Percentage of MAX Spirit Affect on AS Affect on Evade, Block, & Parry DS
75% - 100% No penalty. No penalty
50 to 74% -20% -10%
25% - 49% -35% -20%
Less than 25% -50% -30%

[Winter's Kiss]

What if I've wracked? It'll still be at 8, right, because Owl is added for those 2 min, or is this what the change is, it'll be 6 instead?

If that's the case, I'll be right along with you in the pissed off category. I'll never have a use for 650 again.


Yes. That's what we're saying. You have to wait for that Spirit to regen back into what the "enhanced" part is.

[Winter's Kiss]

When you use Owl, you'll have 11/13 spirit (with your enhancive).

If you wrack, you'll be at 6/13 spirit, not 8/13.

Now you'll experience the following:



Percentage of MAX Spirit Affect on AS Affect on Evade, Block, & Parry DS
75% - 100% No penalty. No penalty
50 to 74% -20% -10%
25% - 49% -35% -20%
Less than 25% -50% -30%




:yeahthat:

[Odysia]

Wow, ok, they did just completely nerf an already sucky 50th ranger spell slot. So the point of using the Owl aspect now is - what exactly?

[Winter's Kiss]

Wow, ok, they did just completely nerf an already sucky 50th ranger spell slot. So the point of using the Owl aspect now is - what exactly?

Same as using Bear. Zilch.

[Allereli]

Where does my healer join the line to let the Ranger/Paladin Lords "assume bear"/cast Vigor (and now be in a situation of "needing healing") and stand there looking like Experience Points On The Hoof?
(Because they can then "stop aspect"/"stop vigor", be at full... and re-cast, thus regaining their appearance of EPOTH.)



You need to go to the end of the GMA line for that. A GM will be with you shortly.

We already put in a place a method to monitor this for abuse. :P

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=11&message=1860

Looks like they've thought this whole process out great!

[Jaimaltz]

Edit: nevermind, Allereli posted first.

[Winter's Kiss]

Hurray... Woohoo.. I'm so glad THAT got taken care.

[droit]

Wow, ok, they did just completely nerf an already sucky 50th ranger spell slot. So the point of using the Owl aspect now is - what exactly?

Well, there is still a TD and CS bonus associated with increased wisdom.

[Asha]

I predict it'll change to the proportional system that has been suggested. They like to implement nerfs that go too far, then update them to something more reasonable to make people think that they're doing us a favor.

This.

[thefarmer]

What I couldn't say was this:

The change is rational and makes sense, but some of you have a persecution complex, and will bitch about the littlest change that upsets your ability to min/max the game to your liking.

As someone who uses a ton of enhancives, this change affects me not at all, because I was not out there hunting for exploits and basing my sense of fun out of it. Jesus, this is the end of the game? Because of a minor tweak to a great resource we didn't even have a couple of years ago?

I don't know if it's because you're powerless in real life and, like some asshole at a grocery store checkout line being rude to the bagger, you need someone to unload on, or, you simply have a metabolic need to seethe, but get over it. Stop the knee-jerk wailing and get some perspective.

Yrs, the idiot Jordan

I'm sorry if your real life consists of being a bagger at the grocery store. On the one hand, it must be nice to have your whole viewpoint condensed into such a small sphere. Less to worry about, I suppose. On the other hand, it's fairly clear you're frustrated by being treated so rudely and with such frequency. Have you mentioned this to your supervisor? Perhaps something with less interaction with people would better suit you. Maybe there's an opening in the cleaning crew (who usually work after-hours).

[Odysia]

Well, there is still a TD and CS bonus associated with increased wisdom.


Which is fine if that's what I really used it for.

[BriarFox]

>You need to go to the end of the GMA line for that. A GM will be with you shortly.

>We already put in a place a method to monitor this for abuse. :P

>GameMaster Estild
>Cleric/Empath Team


The fact that you spent your time fixing a potential "abuse" of the system that you created by breaking spells that worked rather than fixing what you broke in the first place speaks volumes about your priorities. ~Nuadjha


>Abuse of game mechanics by deliberate injury has been monitored long before this change to enhancives. ~Emeradan


I'm aware of that. Your comment is disingenuous and glosses over the fact that Estild's comment seems to indicate that the abuse-monitoring system was updated specifically for this instance.

And from the Ranger folder:


It seems more like Estild was working on 312 and had no idea the changes would affect other aspects of the game. ~Nuadjha


>I'm pretty certain he has a closer idea of the intricacies of the system than either one of us. ~Emeradan


Of course he does. There are only two options here, though:

1) Estild knew perfectly well that this release would have side-effects, but didn't bother to fix them or intended to fix them later. The latter seems unlikely since a one-sentence comment would easily have headed off a storm of annoyed paladins and rangers.

2) He didn't know it would have these side-effects and so didn't account for them.

I guess you prefer #1? That option means he deliberately pissed people off, by disinterest or omission.

~Nuadjha

Emeradan needs to think before he posts. Way to show mindless solidarity.

[Fallen]

Or he will just pull your post, heh.

[BriarFox]

As I said in the other spot, everyone's entitled to an opinion. ~Emeradan


...

Mindless relativism is never an excuse, only a reason for misguided praise of mediocrity. ~Nuadjha

Had to add this one. Christ.

[Winter's Kiss]

Yeah. Complete and utter disregard for anything in that system what-so-ever is not an excuse for anything they've done now. Oh well.

[Fallen]

A post was hidden because an opinion was both off-topic and was conveyed in a less-than-constructive manner.

No replies are needed for this post.

~
GM Emeradan
----
And it wasn't even mine, unless the e-mail hasn't arrived yet. I think they realize I'm out the door anyway.

[BriarFox]

A post was hidden because an opinion was both off-topic and was conveyed in a less-than-constructive manner.

No replies are needed for this post.

~
GM Emeradan
----
And it wasn't even mine, unless the e-mail hasn't arrived yet. I think they realize I'm out the door anyway.

Nah, it was mine that I posted above. Here's Emeradan's email and my response:


Dear BRIARFOX,

Your message copied below has been removed from the Ranger Spells topic for flaming. The GemStone IV Forum has a family oriented atmosphere where people can exchange ideas and information without fear of being harassed or intimidated. Relevant text from your message:

>>Mindless relativism is never an excuse, only a reason for misguided praise of mediocrity.

Regardless of trashing me on the Forums (for which I really couldn't care less), we're going to cease and desist moving forward with making comments that are inflammatory towards game staff (GM X doesn't care, doesn't know what they're doing, etc.). Feedback is your venue for specific complaints about specific members of staff.

At this point, we're going to return to discussing the game, the spell, and the change itself in a constructive manner. If you cannot do that, then you can feel free to refrain from posting on the official Forums.

It's important to us that you understand why this kind of posting is not acceptable. If you feel unclear about the guidelines for posting, please click the Forum Policies link in the upper right corner of the Forums pages. Our guidelines specifically request that members count to 10 and be kind when posting.

If you have any questions about my action in removing your message, please don't hesitate to email me so we can clarify the issue to your satisfaction.

Sincerely,
GM Emeradan


Emeradan,

My posts on the officials have never been an attack on you as an individual, only on your poor decisions and unhelpful comments. That you take them personally indicates a problem on your side of the equation, not mine. Further, the fact that you're bringing up my comments on the PC only shows that you're taking extraneous information into account when making decisions about the official forums. If you really "couldn't care less," then you wouldn't even have mentioned them (and you're also exaggerating them).

Take my last comment as an example: it critiqued the thought process behind your response and the response itself. It had no reflection on your worth as an individual. My comment was only inflammatory if you assume that you are your argument. Yet, presumably riled by it, you suddenly decided to invoke your "power" as a board moderator to get the last word in, and then addressed me in imperatives. You clearly are too invested in your board monitoring activities as an indicator of self-worth.

Simu is well within its rights to restrict whatever it wants from the official forums, regardless of its accuracy or worth, and that's not at issue here. The issue is your misguided justification that you're taking action out of some amorphous greater good ('family atmosphere,' whathaveyou). If you've ever wondered why I accuse you of abuse of power, here's your answer.

C'est ca,
Ryan

I love how he brings up the PC posts.

[ViridianAsp]

I think this is a poor change...Anyone with half a brain can manage spirit and nerve frying. I think the change was a little over the top. I've only fried my nerves once with 213, I learned my lesson and never did it again.

Perhaps, when they get enough complaints they'll tweek it for races/other professions, the bad part is, they should have tested it BEFORE putting into effect.

My two cents on the matter.

[Fallen]

I fried my nerves all the time. Why? Because I could always heal them. I figured it was a trade-off of using the damned things to push past my limits.

[Winter's Kiss]

Yeah, but we're smart about it. It's something we've all worked on. Atleast some of us rangers were making 650 work, and now I can't even use half the reasons I was in the first place. Waste of 50 mana ontop of the 20 per shift.. MEH! MEH I SAY!

[Allereli]

I had 3 pulled my last week. top that!

[Odysia]

I fried my nerves all the time. Why? Because I could always heal them. I figured it was a trade-off of using the damned things to push past my limits.


Right, those who are smart about using the items/spells as they were intended, worked around whatever penalties they got and accepted that there would be some.

Instead, they fixed what wasn't broken and broke a bunch of other things in the process.

Unless, this was an attempt to curb the excessive use of some enhansives? In which case, they're trying to work in a change to correct their mistake.

[Stunseed]

Yeah, but we're smart about it. It's something we've all worked on. Atleast some of us rangers were making 650 work, and now I can't even use half the reasons I was in the first place. Waste of 50 mana ontop of the 20 per shift.. MEH! MEH I SAY!

You guys use it for more than looking cool and porcupine?

[Winter's Kiss]

Yes.. Some of us actually have ranger spells! And you know.. When you're about to die because of blood loss.. Bear was really useful. And for when I needed to use 2 Spirit CoL Signs instead of just 1.. I could use Owl.

Now I'm stuck down to using Wolf and Jackal.. Whee. Wonderful.. Hurray.

[graysun]

You guys use it for more than looking cool and porcupine?
And Hawk to check for glyph traps before blowing up boxes.

Really though, that's about it.

[Winter's Kiss]

And Hawk to check for glyph traps before blowing up boxes.

Really though, that's about it.


I have a rogue that picks my ranger's boxes, plus I don't have the 100's. So I don't even use that.

Maybe sometimes I use Porcupine when I'm traveling from town to town and don't have armor on because I'm too lazy.

[Warriorbird]

Some people like being nerfed. It extends the heroin ware aspects.

[Winter's Kiss]

Some people like being nerfed. It extends the heroin ware aspects.


Hush you! You left! :club:

[yesicj]

Regardless of trashing me on the Forums (for which I really couldn't care less), we're going to cease and desist moving forward with making comments that are inflammatory towards game staff (GM X doesn't care, doesn't know what they're doing, etc.). Feedback is your venue for specific complaints about specific members of staff.

Am I the only one that found this part in bold amusing? It says he hates you trashing him. The irony is biting. Also, trashing? Since you (Em) apparently read this stuff: way to class up that official e-mail chief.

[Warriorbird]

Hush you! You left! :club:

People like that are part of the reason I did!

[ViridianAsp]

Am I the only one that found this part in bold amusing? It says he hates you trashing him. The irony is biting. Also, trashing? Since you (Em) apparently read this stuff: way to class up that official e-mail chief.

Be careful, or he'll barg in on you while your roleplaying and go ooc, not listen to you and harrass you about a bug item report you turned in.

[Allereli]

Be careful, or he'll barg in on you while your roleplaying and go ooc, not listen to you and harrass you about a bug item report you turned in.

log?

[Winter's Kiss]

People like that are part of the reason I did!


:sighs: I know. Miss you! :love:

[ZeP]

So... relatively minor compared to the ranger concerns.. but they're calling it GMA to heal someone who just cast Vigor or put on some health enhancers? I mean, I can carry around acantha.. I do anyway, but to roll in this change and then call GMA on us getting back to full health.. I don't know.. this is beyond retarded even by Simu standards. Why can't this change be 5 years over due?

I think I have to agree with the sentiments posted that they're going overboard so when they tweak it we are just glad for any improvement.

[Allereli]

So... relatively minor compared to the ranger concerns.. but they're calling it GMA to heal someone who just cast Vigor or put on some health enhancers? I mean, I can carry around acantha.. I do anyway, but to roll in this change and then call GMA on us getting back to full health.. I don't know.. this is beyond retarded even by Simu standards. Why can't this change be 5 years over due?

I think I have to agree with the sentiments posted that they're going overboard so when they tweak it we are just glad for any improvement.

no, it's GMA to do it repeatedly just so the empath will get xp

[ZeP]

no, it's GMA to do it repeatedly just so the empath will get xp

Well, I know. Sort of. We'll see how they enforce it. I'm just running scenarios through in my mind like a paladin group hunt and suddenly 8 to 10 pallys need health. Someone uses their own pocket healer. Any similar situation with a large group, etc. Also because of mana some pallys, especially non-COL and low level ones, don't always stack all their spells so they might recast Vigor often.

[droit]

The change was meant to be a beneficial one whereas people would not suffer the penalty from unintentionally overspending their resource. There have been a lot of complaints and bugs posted where people have blown nerves from mana well potions ending or spirit dying due to max spirit enhancives running out while they're in the field. We wanted to remedy this. This was not meant to be a nerf. As GM Estild said, we're listening to suggestions for solutions and the dev team has been working on solutions ourselves. We understand that you're unhappy about this change. What would be beneficial at this point would be to focus on ideas instead. There have been some constructive ones thusfar in the Item and Inventory folder. Please keep that thread going.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

[thefarmer]

Re: Enhancement Changes = 650 Nerf · on 5/7/2009 1:48:12 AM 4773


Reply
The spirit (Owl) and hit point (Bear) restoration issues with Assume Aspect will be fixed by this evening. The updated version of the spell will keep the disparity between max spirit/HP and current spirit/HP the same before and after assuming the respective aspect.

I'll give a heads up when the update rolls in.

-M.

It's a start...

[droit]

Heck, that's better than the proportional increase system, since most people have >100 health and 10 spirit.

[thefarmer]

I'm the only one that's posted in the Paladin folder about Vigor...

It's a shame nobody cares about paladins other than me. Hell, I don't even know if we have a fucking guru.

[droit]

Your guru is Mestys, too.

[thefarmer]

Oh, that's right... Mestys.

It's odd that this is the second nerf to Vigor that's happened recently. The last one was a decent compromise (not enough IMO, but ok), I can only hope that despite the lack of a single post other than mine, it'll get fixed back to normal.

[Fallen]

I've posted there too!

[Winter's Kiss]

As much as I love Mestys.. I'm still not happy with the crappy change to something that already sucked.. Oh well. Hurray for shitty compromise.

[Fallen]

The discussion for fixing the release is still ongoing. Make sure you chime in saying you want their crap change reverted.

[Winter's Kiss]

With how I feel about it, E.. My post would more than likely get pulled. Plus, I hate the officials. I just popped on here for a short time before I go to work.

[mgoddess]

Re: Enhancive change affecting Vigor · on 5/7/2009 12:49:20 PM

>The HP difference between before and after causes an instant AS/DS loss. Is this the intended result? -farmer

The AS/DS loss from enhanced maximum health is not intended, and will be addressed on a wide scale. There are still some issues of design that we're discussing on the back end of things, so that's all I'll mention for now.

-M.

[thefarmer]

Dare I be cautiously optimistic...?

[Fallen]

Who knows, but whoever the hell Novaaske is or whatever is one ignorant fuck. DEV GMs obviously have their own test instance.

[Danical]

Who knows, but whoever the hell Novaaske is or whatever is one ignorant fuck. DEV GMs obviously have their own test instance.

Obviously, he does it for the lulz.

[yesicj]

Be careful, or he'll barg in on you while your roleplaying and go ooc, not listen to you and harrass you about a bug item report you turned in.

That would be entertaining in its own right. But unlikely, unless someone decides they want to GoA me to reactivate and do major enchants (hasn't happened yet, so I wouldn't bank on it).

[thefarmer]

Who knows, but whoever the hell Novaaske is or whatever is one ignorant fuck. DEV GMs obviously have their own test instance.

I bet their friend's a GM.

[BriarFox]

Serious kudos to Mestys. These changes to 650 have actually made it a better spell. I didn't actually want to mention the benefits from it now on the officials for fear they'd be nerfed back, but Bear and Owl now essentially act as immediate boosts to health and spirit if you assume and then drop the aspect.

Say you're at 100/150 health, assume bear, you're at 140/190, drop bear, you're at 140/150.

Say you're at 7/10 spirit, assume owl, you're at 9/12 spirit, drop owl, you're at 9/10 spirit.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how they're working. I have some more testing to do yet. Also, this means that you could regen 1 spirit/minute on average by using Owl aspect.

There may be something I'm missing here, but so far it's looking pretty cool.

[Stunseed]

650 needs an unstun. For the mana, just work it in. Seriously. I don't care that we'd pay more mana ( 50 ) for the unstun.

[BriarFox]

650 needs an unstun. For the mana, just work it in. Seriously. I don't care that we'd pay more mana ( 50 ) for the unstun.

Hm. It'd make sense for Bear to give you the ability to shake off stuns, like giants and such can.

[graysun]

Serious kudos to Mestys. These changes to 650 have actually made it a better spell. I didn't actually want to mention the benefits from it now on the officials for fear they'd be nerfed back, but Bear and Owl now essentially act as immediate boosts to health and spirit if you assume and then drop the aspect.

Say you're at 100/150 health, assume bear, you're at 140/190, drop bear, you're at 140/150.

Say you're at 7/10 spirit, assume owl, you're at 9/12 spirit, drop owl, you're at 9/10 spirit.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how they're working. I have some more testing to do yet. Also, this means that you could regen 1 spirit/minute on average by using Owl aspect.

There may be something I'm missing here, but so far it's looking pretty cool.
Wow, that's a huge improvement. And hopefully not just an oversight.

[Odysia]

Serious kudos to Mestys. These changes to 650 have actually made it a better spell. I didn't actually want to mention the benefits from it now on the officials for fear they'd be nerfed back, but Bear and Owl now essentially act as immediate boosts to health and spirit if you assume and then drop the aspect.

Say you're at 100/150 health, assume bear, you're at 140/190, drop bear, you're at 140/150.

Say you're at 7/10 spirit, assume owl, you're at 9/12 spirit, drop owl, you're at 9/10 spirit.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how they're working. I have some more testing to do yet. Also, this means that you could regen 1 spirit/minute on average by using Owl aspect.

There may be something I'm missing here, but so far it's looking pretty cool.


It has to be a mistake. I used Owl when hunting last night, and after I'd used it twice, (with the not so fun 2 min cooldown in between) I had 15 spirit . . . I don't understand how it was working but I certainly enjoyed the benefit.

[Fallen]

Definitely a bug. You are supposedly hard capped at a max of 13 spirit. NO MORE OR YOU'RE BREAKING THE GAME!!!

[graysun]

Definitely a bug. You are supposedly hard capped at a max of 13 spirit. NO MORE OR YOU'RE BREAKING THE GAME!!!
I am afraid you must be right. Two spirit for 25 mana, every two minutes, is too good to be true. It's now on par (or better?) than Well of Life for regenning spirit.

[Fallen]

I dunno. Sounds like a level 50 spell to me. What are Rangers going to do, wrack like crazy?

[graysun]

I hope you're right. I love me some thorn-hunting.

[droit]

2 spirit every 4 minutes, but yeah. I wouldn't expect this benefit to last very long.

[BriarFox]

2 spirit every 4 minutes, but yeah. I wouldn't expect this benefit to last very long.

We'll see. I hope it stays, of course.

[Odysia]

I am afraid you must be right. Two spirit for 25 mana, every two minutes, is too good to be true. It's now on par (or better?) than Well of Life for regenning spirit.

I don't remember if I used Owl again (I was hunting those damn magus for freekin' ever last night so I likely did) but I don't think it ever went past 15. The spirit level didn't drop when the aspect wore off either. And I ended up with 9 spirit when I wracked. Now that I realize this really isn't intended to happen, I'm sure it'll be fixed.

[Avern]

Yeah, there is a similar thing that can be done with max mana boosts of manna bread. Just keep getting the effect to drop by going into combat and get free mana. I can't believe this change went live with this big of an issue in it.

[graysun]

I can't believe this change went live with this big of an issue in it.
Dare we be hopeful yet that 650 might remain as is - the new, new way?

Long term, the utility of it will probably depend on how much wracking is nerfed.

[droit]

In response to player feedback, we've updated the Attack and Defense Strength formula when accounting for missing health and spirit. Instead of using the player's enhanced health/spirit, the combat system will no longer count +maximum health or spirit items against the player. Take note that enhancives which modify a player's Aura stat (thus increasing their spirit) are still used.

For example, a warrior with 200 hit points normally starts seeing AS penalties when his hit points fall below 150. That is, he can lose up to 50 hit points before experiencing any combat penalty. If he wears a +20 hit points item and heals up to 220 hit points, he still will not see any penalties until his hit points fall below 150. So he now can lose up to 70 hit points before experiencing combat penalties.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

This message was originally posted in Game Design Discussions, Items and Inventory. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=11&message=1997

[Fallen]

I guess that is how they are going to handle Vigor, then.

[thefarmer]

Re: Enhancive Update · on 5/13/2009 11:29:57 AM 2011


Reply
<<What about the spirit potions?>>

I consider the announced change to be a marked improvement for any products, spells, or effects that increase maximum Health or Spirit capacities. For those players who use abilities that consume Spirit, this correlates to a noticeable boost compared to how things worked a month ago. Here is an example:

If I have 10 Spirit normally, my buffer before applying any penalties is 2 Spirit (8/10).

* If I consumed a +3 Spirit-well potion a month ago, the potion would boost me to 13/13 and my buffer becomes 3 Spirit (10/13), but I would have to be wary of my capacity at termination of the boost.

* If I consume a +3 Spirit-well potion today, the potion would boost me to 10/13. I gain no instant Spirit. However, no penalties for low vitals are applied until I drop below my baseline threshold of 8 Spirit. So my buffer is 2 Spirit in the instant after drinking the potion, but as I recover Spirit my buffer grows up to 5 Spirit. I betcha someone could come up with something pretty cool to do with 5 Spirit, and doing that without low vitals penalties in the field could be very appealing.

Similarly, health-well items (and Vigor and CMAN Toughness) are now markedly improved. Because the penalties for low vitals are evaluated against the player's capacities without the capacity boosters, these abilities/effects apply directly to the health buffer. For instance, say the normal maximum health capacity for a paladin is 160 health with a 100 Constitution. He normally can take 40 damage before penalties begin to apply. With a 25 health point Vigor active, the paladin's health is at 185, and he can take 65 damage before combat penalties apply (a month ago his buffer would have been 46 health). It gets even better if the paladin trains in CMAN Toughness, with his buffer potentially rising to 90 damage. This is a very helpful improvement, especially for any classes with damage reduction benefits.

Warden

[Fallen]

Basically, it penalizes those who have + spirit items for purposes other than AS/DS based attacks.

[Danical]

pretty much - if you use CoL and had spirit posters specifically for wracking, you're effed in the eh.