Will this TWC training plan work?

[mrjrd222]

So I have a level 60 rogue, I just got a few fun weapons from CCF and I'd like to make him a TWC user, but he has to retain his 3x picking/disarming to open my boxes, this is not something I'm willing to drop.

Will this plan work? Or will I get my ass handed to me? (Assume full Wizard and Cleric spellup in non spellburst areas)

(at level 60)

Armor Use - 80 ranks
Edged Weapons - 124 ranks
Two Weapon Combat - 124 ranks
Combat Maneuvers - 62 ranks
Ambush - 62 ranks
Physical Training - 62 ranks
Dodging - 62 ranks
Arcane Symbols - 20 ranks
Harness Power - 20 ranks
Climbing - 30 ranks
Swimming - 30 ranks
Disarming Traps - 180 ranks
Picking Locks - 180 ranks
Perception - 150 ranks
Stalking and Hiding - 124 ranks

Minor Elemental - 4 ranks

[Mtenda]

moar ambush and dodge

Perception isn't nearly as important for you now as it will be. In case you don't already know, it doesen't help with ambushing. You could get away with 30-40 ranks. With 3x disarm and 404 you won't miss any traps. Are you using swimming at all right now? I'd probly ditch that. You can probably get by with some random frustrations with 20 ranks of climb. Can't count on Arcane Symbols. Make friends instead. Spellburst isn't an issue yet. Ditch it. Drop Harness Power to 5 ranks also.

[waywardgs]

At least 2x dodge for twc... preferably 3, but 2 works

[droit]

Man, 2x TWC, 3x dodge, parry mastery and evasion mastery must be fantastic.

[mrjrd222]

moar ambush and dodge

Perception isn't nearly as important for you now as it will be. In case you don't already know, it doesen't help with ambushing. You could get away with 30-40 ranks. With 3x disarm and 404 you won't miss any traps. Are you using swimming at all right now? I'd probly ditch that. You can probably get by with some random frustrations with 20 ranks of climb. Can't count on Arcane Symbols. Make friends instead. Spellburst isn't an issue yet. Ditch it. Drop Harness Power to 5 ranks also.

HP was supposed to be 10, not 20... oops.

The perception is for checking traps, I missed a trap from an OTF box (probably in the -425 range) I guess it might have been a fumble but I just can't stand missing the traps I guess, but it wasn't for ambush.

The 30 swimming will be for getting him to the cavern of ages when I head to the Rift with Ceno/Onmiste (about 5 levels from now) So I can't ditch that.

The climbing I'm not sure about, I could live with 20 I'm sure but that's not a huge TP saver.

And the 20 ranks of AS is for scarabs, not spellburst.

I just don't think I can handle fully 3x in picking and disarming yet still be a solid TWC hunter. I know I could do so with being an archer but everyone's a damn archer.

I'd like to find out if a level 60 picker with 2.5x picking/disarming can open boxes from the rift... He'd likely be level 65 or so by the time I moved beyond plane 1... Any thoughts?

Right now the rogue simply cannot hunt, his skills are downright awful. So I need something new, and I want it to be fun and effective for the most part, but he can have flaws.

[DaCapn]

Perception isn't nearly as important for you now as it will be. In case you don't already know, it doesen't help with ambushing. You could get away with 30-40 ranks. With 3x disarm and 404 you won't miss any traps. Are you using swimming at all right now? I'd probly ditch that. You can probably get by with some random frustrations with 20 ranks of climb. Can't count on Arcane Symbols. Make friends instead. Spellburst isn't an issue yet. Ditch it. Drop Harness Power to 5 ranks also.

He can't drop perception due to lockpicking. You should be able to do fine with 2x though. That would free 104 MTP (if you're worried, you could use 402 before checking for traps anyway). Agreed on the harness power and arcane symbols training. Maybe he's in GoS and wants some extra mana? I'm not sure how much is required at a minimum for people because I am trained for ewave with my GoS member anyway. You could be looking at an extra 200+ MTP between the three. I'm guessing that you've converted heavily to mental from your build. If so, that would put you pretty close to achieving 2x dodge.

Not sure if ambush would need to be 2x or not using light weapons and having two shots per swing. I have a rogue at 32 who uses THW and hits the mark probably about 75% of the time with 1.5x ambush. I'm working up to 2x just because it feels right, but I probably don't need to. For sure you'll want the dodge help. I'd hold off on ambush until you see whether or not you're hitting the mark.

Not sure what your thoughts are on MOC. It's typically assumed to be bundled with TWC. It doesn't really look like the points are there though.

What's your cman list looking like? I'm going to take the opportunity to re-emphasize how amazing I think dirt kick is. I guess evade mastery won't be on the menu based on your 80 ranks of AU.

[DaCapn]

I think at level 55 with 2x picking/disarm/perception + 403/404 I only had a few plane 1 boxes ever with traps outside my range (EDIT: but I could always see the traps). If all else fails, you could go 3x disarm, 2x picking, caliper your boxes before you pick them and wedge them if they're out of range. That would free up a lot of TPs while retaining functionality. Obviously you've got to be open to dealing with the annoyance of making wedges, though.

[Stunseed]

Man, 2x TWC, 3x dodge, parry mastery and evasion mastery must be fantastic.


Ondreian has this build. He is also pretty fatal in all aspects.

[septus]

You don't need to 2x in perception to be good at disarming boxes. 1x is fine. It just factors into seeing boxes. So unless you plan on seeing boxes that have traps that are that much higher than your disarm skill.

[mrjrd222]

I've changed the plan a little... the talk about evasion mastery and parry mastery had me thinking. I dropped to enough AU to get 2 ranks of Armored Evasion, but I'd be in Brig (5% evasion per rank of Evasion Mastery) Dropping AS down to 10 ranks actually freed a TON of points at 14 PTP per rank, and I dropped to 2x perception which freed enough to get 2x dodge and have some TP left over (because MOC sounds good)

(at level 60)

Armor Use - 50 ranks
Edged Weapons - 124 ranks
Two Weapon Combat - 124 ranks
Combat Maneuvers - 62 ranks
Ambush - 62 ranks
Physical Training - 62 ranks
Dodging - 124 ranks
Arcane Symbols - 10 ranks
Harness Power - 10 ranks
Climbing - 30 ranks
Swimming - 30 ranks
Disarming Traps - 180 ranks
Picking Locks - 180 ranks
Perception - 124 ranks
Stalking and Hiding - 124 ranks

Minor Elemental - 4 ranks


This leaves 102 PTP (5 ranks of MOC with 22 PTP leftover) Should I shave a few more somewhere to get more MOC?

[Mtenda]

He can't drop perception due to lockpicking. You should be able to do fine with 2x though.

If we are just talking about picking like level boxes then he can assuming he is in the habit of casting 404 before he detects. If your disarm skill bonus, perception skill bonus, dexterity bonus, lore bonus all equal up to 100 higher than the highest trap you will face, you will not ever miss it. But I'm guessing that this character picks for others frequently?

[mrjrd222]

I could also drop to 1.5x Perception and get to 138 dodge ranks (14 over 2x) or get extra MOC?

[mrjrd222]

If we are just talking about picking like level boxes then he can assuming he is in the habit of casting 404 before he detects. If your disarm skill bonus, perception skill bonus, dexterity bonus, lore bonus all equal up to 100 higher than the highest trap you will face, you will not ever miss it. But I'm guessing that this character picks for others frequently?

We're talking about him being 60-65 and picking boxes that are 75-80

[m444w]

I pop my own boxes and disarm them with 408. I've missed one trap from an invasion critter that was like... level 100+, but I am also very methodical.

>skills
Ondreian (at level 54), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 202 102
Armor Use..........................| 132 36
Combat Maneuvers...................| 167 67
Edged Weapons......................| 212 112
Ambush.............................| 175 75
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 70 15
Physical Fitness...................| 160 60
Dodging............................| 268 168
Arcane Symbols.....................| 54 11
Harness Power......................| 99 23
Stalking and Hiding................| 196 96
Perception.........................| 164 64
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 90 20

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 10
Training Points: 34 Phy 0 Mnt (470 Phy converted to Mnt)

I'm not a min/maxer (except dodge and edged weapons, I will always have that maxed from now and forever).

Also thinking of reducing my perception to 1x.

And I really don't even bother hiding anymore now that I have ewave. I just ewave/hamstring (depending on how many creatures are in the room), ambush left eye, loot.

[mrjrd222]

I liked the idea of being able to disarm my traps myself, and keeping my lockpicking down a bit, wedging boxes if I truly need to. I can always make a bunch of wedges.

Right now with all the feedback I'm thinking:

Armor use: 50 ranks
Edged : 2x
TWC : 2x
MOC : 10 ranks
CM : 1x
Ambush : 1x
PT : 1x
Dodging : 2.5x
Hiding : 2x
Arcane Symbols : 10 ranks
Harness Power : 10 ranks
Climbing : 30 ranks
Swimming : 30 ranks
Disarming Traps : 3x
Picking Locks : 3x
Perception : 1.5x

Elemental Spells : 4

This leaves me with a flat 0 TP's left and 220 P2M

I can disarm up to -400's, I can probably pick up to -750 or 800? That seems pretty low, but wedges can always open everything...

[Yollia]

You can't open scale traps with wedges, and it's a real pain to have to make a wedge every time you want to open a box. Metal boxes will pretty much destroy a superior wedge. I tried the disarming/wedging thing but got sick of it quickly.

[StrayRogue]

Man, 2x TWC, 3x dodge, parry mastery and evasion mastery must be fantastic.

Rogues have parry mastery now?

[droit]

Rogues have parry mastery now?

Guess not. But a warrior with all three masteries would be a sight to see.

[DoctorUnne]

I liked the idea of being able to disarm my traps myself, and keeping my lockpicking down a bit, wedging boxes if I truly need to. I can always make a bunch of wedges.

Right now with all the feedback I'm thinking:

Armor use: 50 ranks
Edged : 2x
TWC : 2x
MOC : 10 ranks
CM : 1x
Ambush : 1x
PT : 1x
Dodging : 2.5x
Hiding : 2x
Arcane Symbols : 10 ranks
Harness Power : 10 ranks
Climbing : 30 ranks
Swimming : 30 ranks
Disarming Traps : 3x
Picking Locks : 3x
Perception : 1.5x

Elemental Spells : 4

This leaves me with a flat 0 TP's left and 220 P2M

I can disarm up to -400's, I can probably pick up to -750 or 800? That seems pretty low, but wedges can always open everything...

I think this is pretty much fine. The only thing I would consider adding is 10 more ranks of armor use so you can wear augmented chain. You'll still be 1x in armor so it will only cost 50 PTP. To get that you can go down to 1.75x or so in TWC. The effect on your offhand AS will be pretty negligible. You may occasionally miss the opening for your offhand strike if you are uphunting, but that will happen at 2x TWC too. There shouldn't be too much of a difference. Alternatively you can ditch 5 ranks of MOC.

But by no means do I think it's required. What you have works fine. As for CMs, you'll want rank 2 of combat mobility and probably evade mastery. If you have any points left over other good CMs for TWC users include hamstring (with the right weapons), wspec (if you use two of the same weapon) and combat toughness.

The only other thing I would mention is you're going to have a hard time with escort bounties without ewave. May want to think about 10 ranks of MIU and some ewave imbeds. I assume you won't even get assigned foraging and skinning bounties with no first aid. If you need something else to drop you can take dodge down to 2.25x. I'm at 2x dodge and I have no problems whatsoever at level 51 with access to a wizard spellup. Tripling is expensive, especially if you're going to be a tripled locksmith.

[DaCapn]

You can't open scale traps with wedges, and it's a real pain to have to make a wedge every time you want to open a box. Metal boxes will pretty much destroy a superior wedge. I tried the disarming/wedging thing but got sick of it quickly.

Fair point, but that only matters if the lock is out of his actual range. The talk was about holding back picking a bit, not forgoing it entirely.

I said it before, but I'll figure some actual numbers into this: I've gotten up to -880 with 2x picking and lores with a vaalin pick in sub-prime condition somewhere around level 55. From that point, it has put me just shy of unlocking maybe 3 plane 1 boxes ever (I had a bit more trouble on the disarming side). With even some modest estimates of my box total being 50 in that time and scales traps being on a similar order of say 1/50 boxes, you're looking at 1/800 boxes having a scales trap with a lock that's too tough. Given the fact that he's 5 levels higher and than I was, if he shaves to 2.5x picking instead of 2x picking, he's pretty well assured that he'll never have to touch a wedge to get through a locked plane 1 box.

If he's shooting for plane 1 as the minimum, he'll have a pretty satisfactory experience with only 2x picking and lores in my opinion.

[Yollia]

Well I've mostly been a TWC, 2x picking rogue. I dropped down to this:

Yollia (at level 98), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 300 200
Armor Use..........................| 186 86
Combat Maneuvers...................| 264 164
Brawling...........................| 300 200
Ambush.............................| 300 200
Physical Fitness...................| 295 195
Dodging............................| 300 200
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Disarming Traps....................| 280 180
Picking Locks......................| 262 162
Stalking and Hiding................| 300 200
Perception.........................| 300 200
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 150 50
Pickpocketing......................| 140 40

Working the picking and disarming back up now. I can open MOST of the plane 5 boxes, probably picking half and wedging half of those. I defer to Laphrael for tough traps.

In terms of hunting, I have no trouble at all.

[mrjrd222]

I think this is pretty much fine. The only thing I would consider adding is 10 more ranks of armor use so you can wear augmented chain. You'll still be 1x in armor so it will only cost 50 PTP. To get that you can go down to 1.75x or so in TWC. The effect on your offhand AS will be pretty negligible. You may occasionally miss the opening for your offhand strike if you are uphunting, but that will happen at 2x TWC too. There shouldn't be too much of a difference. Alternatively you can ditch 5 ranks of MOC.

But by no means do I think it's required. What you have works fine. As for CMs, you'll want rank 2 of combat mobility and probably evade mastery. If you have any points left over other good CMs for TWC users include hamstring (with the right weapons), wspec (if you use two of the same weapon) and combat toughness.

The only other thing I would mention is you're going to have a hard time with escort bounties without ewave. May want to think about 10 ranks of MIU and some ewave imbeds. I assume you won't even get assigned foraging and skinning bounties with no first aid. If you need something else to drop you can take dodge down to 2.25x. I'm at 2x dodge and I have no problems whatsoever at level 51 with access to a wizard spellup. Tripling is expensive, especially if you're going to be a tripled locksmith.

I'm not going for extra ranks of armor to go into chainmail. I'm planning on wearing Brigandine and the extra ranks are for 2 ranks of Armored Evasion. If I go into chain, then each rank of evasion mastery will help less. If I was going for heavier armor I'd probably make my way to 80 or 90 ranks for MBP, but if I'm going for evasion mastery, armored evasion, and parry mastery, I'd rather go with the light armor and pray that I evade/parry instead of getting hit hard!

I've heard TWC Hamstring is sick, so I'll be going for a few ranks of that.

And lastly I'm not going to do escort bounties. Skinning bounties won't be given, but foraging bounties will be, and can be done by my cleric with ease!

[DoctorUnne]

I'm not going for extra ranks of armor to go into chainmail. I'm planning on wearing Brigandine and the extra ranks are for 2 ranks of Armored Evasion. If I go into chain, then each rank of evasion mastery will help less. If I was going for heavier armor I'd probably make my way to 80 or 90 ranks for MBP, but if I'm going for evasion mastery, armored evasion, and parry mastery, I'd rather go with the light armor and pray that I evade/parry instead of getting hit hard!

I've heard TWC Hamstring is sick, so I'll be going for a few ranks of that.

And lastly I'm not going to do escort bounties. Skinning bounties won't be given, but foraging bounties will be, and can be done by my cleric with ease!

Rogues can't learn parry mastery. I don't know how well brig will fly without full 3x dodge. If you're going to be in brig then yeah definitely keep dodge at 2.5x. You'll probably be okay, at least for now. So if that's the case then and you're not doing escort bounties I think you nailed it.