White & Hispanic Firemen Denied Promotion Because No Blacks Passed the Test

[Methais]

The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case involving white fireman who have claimed racial decimation against the New Haven Fire Department, for abandoning a promotion exam that no African-Americans were able to pass.

If the Supreme Court sides in their favor, it may very well change the way the way affirmative action and other typical employment procedures are practiced.

Firefighter Matt Marcarelli, a Caucasian, scored best in the promotion exam, but due to the fact that no black fighters scored well enough to pass the test, his results were discarded.

"Every day I go to work I've got to pin this lieutenant's badge on me, it reminds me I got screwed out of a captain's badge because of the color of my skin," Marcarelli told ABC News. "That gets to you."

The high-scoring white and Hispanic fighterfighters sued the department, claiming that they would have been promoted had they been African-Americans.

The Supreme Court will decide whether or not this constitutes a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which guarantees equal rights and protection to all employees, regardless of race or creed.

Of the applicants, 27 of 41 were African-American. Twenty-two applicants passed, including some African-Americans, but they did not score well enough to earn a promotion.

City officials have suggested there to be a bias in the test, which places African-Americans at a disadvantage, but no specifics were ever given, or details mentioned as to what that bias could be.

Justice Antonin Scalia seemed skeptical of New Haven's claim that the decision to reject the test was race-neutral... "You're saying it is neutral to set aside a test because one race prevails," he said. "I wouldn't call that neutral."

The court's liberal wing, led in questioning by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, suggested that New Haven acted properly after receiving the racially disparate test results.

Justice David H. Souter said New Haven faced a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation" when it identified the race of the successful test takers. No matter what the city did, it would have been sued by whatever race viewed itself as losing, he said.

Even if the court rules for the New Haven firefighters, the case could be sent back to U.S. District Court in New Haven for further proceedings. The Obama administration's Justice Department, while largely supportive of New Haven in the dispute, asked the court Wednesday to send the case back to New Haven for trial.

http://www.760kfmb.com/Global/story.asp?S=10236001

http://therightside.squarespace.com/storage/affirmative%20action.gif

[Sean of the Thread]

Wait I'm confused. Black people don't like water yet they use it to put out fires?

[Jorddyn]

I'm confused as to how a firefighting test could be not race-neutral.

[Daniel]

Luckily there aren't tests on working in a pizza joint.

[Sean of the Thread]

or a swimming test

[Methais]

Luckily there aren't tests on working in a pizza joint.

What does a pizza do that a black man can't?

Feed a family of four.

No test required for this:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll154/spinarooni226/TrollAwardDaniel.jpg

[Back]

Who wrote this article?


The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case involving white fireman who have claimed racial decimation against the New Haven Fire Department, for abandoning a promotion exam that no African-Americans were able to pass.

If the Supreme Court sides in their favor, it may very well change the way the way affirmative action and other typical employment procedures are practiced.

Firefighter Matt Marcarelli, a Caucasian, scored best in the promotion exam, but due to the fact that no black fighters scored well enough to pass the test, his results were discarded.

"Every day I go to work I've got to pin this lieutenant's badge on me, it reminds me I got screwed out of a captain's badge because of the color of my skin," Marcarelli told ABC News. "That gets to you."

The high-scoring white and Hispanic fighterfighters sued the department, claiming that they would have been promoted had they been African-Americans.

The Supreme Court will decide whether or not this constitutes a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which guarantees equal rights and protection to all employees, regardless of race or creed.

Of the applicants, 27 of 41 were African-American. Twenty-two applicants passed, including some African-Americans, but they did not score well enough to earn a promotion. ?

City officials have suggested there to be a bias in the test, which places African-Americans at a disadvantage, but no specifics were ever given, or details mentioned as to what that bias could be.

Justice Antonin Scalia seemed skeptical of New Haven's claim that the decision to reject the test was race-neutral... "You're saying it is neutral to set aside a test because one race prevails," he said. "I wouldn't call that neutral."

The court's liberal wing, led in questioning by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, suggested that New Haven acted properly after receiving the racially disparate test results.

Justice David H. Souter said New Haven faced a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation" when it identified the race of the successful test takers. No matter what the city did, it would have been sued by whatever race viewed itself as losing, he said. !

Even if the court rules for the New Haven firefighters, the case could be sent back to U.S. District Court in New Haven for further proceedings. The Obama administration's Justice Department, while largely supportive of New Haven in the dispute, asked the court Wednesday to send the case back to New Haven for trial.

http://www.760kfmb.com/Global/story.asp?S=10236001

http://therightside.squarespace.com/storage/affirmative%20action.gif

[Parkbandit]

Who wrote this article?

Seriously.. how fucking stupid are you?

It took me a total of 3 seconds to find out that Matthew Harvey wrote it.

What was your point again?

[Parkbandit]

What does a pizza do that a black man can't?

Feed a family of four.


I didn't want to laugh.. but I did.

[Back]

Seriously.. how fucking stupid are you?

It took me a total of 3 seconds to find out that Matthew Harvey wrote it.

What was your point again?

That he needs a better editor? Oh, yeah, a good point as well.

[Parkbandit]

That he needs a better editor? Oh, yeah, a good point as well.

Ah.. so instead of actually debating the merits of the article, you would rather play Teacher and try to correct typos.

Well, we certainly needed that! THANKS BACKLASH!!!

[ElvenFury]

Who wrote this article?

N/M. PB wins.

[Warriorbird]

Interesting. Altered article that's actually two clumsily pasted together with commentary added and some of the actually good original commentary (what Kennedy said on it) removed. From a WorldNet talk radio station.

It's a noteworthy case. It likely won't be as precedent forming as some would expect, however, as it will likely go against the town on the grounds that they identified the races of the test takers at all. Doing that invited suit from either race.

[Methais]

Interesting. Altered article that's actually two clumsily pasted together with commentary added and some of the actually good original commentary (what Kennedy said on it) removed. From a WorldNet talk radio station.

It's been all over the news all week, and the story has been the same. White and hispanics passed the test, blacks didn't, so nobody got promoted and they're calling the test itself racist.

[Warriorbird]

Of course. They just likely eliminated the guy who'll probably be writing the majority to cast it as a war between Scalia and Ginsberg.

[Daniel]

What does a pizza do that a black man can't?

Feed a family of four.

No test required for this:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll154/spinarooni226/TrollAwardDaniel.jpg

Yea. I totally have that problem and you definitely hit close to home with your racist drivel

[Warriorbird]

they're calling the test itself racist.

Only New Haven has. Even Ginsberg only said it had racist results. Your 'they're' casts about for who exactly it refers to.

[Ignot]

Seriously.. how fucking stupid are you?

It took me a total of 3 seconds to find out that Matthew Harvey wrote it.

What was your point again?

ROFL. Holy overreaction batman!

[radamanthys]

I would like to see the test. I can't imagine that any test could really be that biased.

[Stanley Burrell]

I was trying to find a picture of Ving Rhames from "Chuck and Larry" using certain keywords, but ... Now my browser cache needs clearing.

[Deathravin]

City officials have suggested there to be a bias in the test, which places African-Americans at a disadvantage, but no specifics were ever given, or details mentioned as to what that bias could be.

I have NEVER understood this. The other Standardized tests of education (SATs ACTs etc) are the same way. How is information and knowledge racially bias?

It's like saying Basketball as a sport is bias because not as many white players make it to the NBA.

Real life isn't Chapelle's show. White people don't get privileges and cheats the day they're born. They don't get to just walk out of a liquor store without paying. And they don't just magically do better on tests because of the color of their skin.


My buddy and I both took the PSATs in highschool. Both white. I got a better score than he did, I can't remember the numbers but it was like the difference between an A- and an A. He wrote down on his test that he was black. He didn't just get applications for scholarships. He got awarded scholarships and they called him daily about the money was given to go to school. He totaled it up, and he could get two PHDs on the money they were offering him. He explained it was a clerical error, and they would just hang up on him.

[Daniel]

I have NEVER understood this. The other Standardized tests of education (SATs ACTs etc) are the same way. How is information and knowledge racially bias?

It's like saying Basketball as a sport is bias because not as many white players make it to the NBA.

Real life isn't Chapelle's show. White people don't get privileges and cheats the day they're born. They don't get to just walk out of a liquor store without paying. And they don't just magically do better on tests because of the color of their skin.


My buddy and I both took the PSATs in highschool. Both white. I got a better score than he did, I can't remember the numbers but it was like the difference between an A- and an A. He wrote down on his test that he was black. He didn't just get applications for scholarships. He got awarded scholarships and they called him daily about the money was given to go to school. He totaled it up, and he could get two PHDs on the money they were offering him. He explained it was a clerical error, and they would just hang up on him.

It's a function and legacy of socio economic disenfranchisement. For example, if your grandmother was raised on a plantation and intentionally precluded from learning how to read, then chances are she doesn't have the same ability to guide you and help you develop that other kids had.

It is continually perpetuated by such things as education being a function of local tax revenues. So, if you're poor, you get less resources in order to overcome this deficency. Wash, rinse and repeat.

[Daniel]

I also sincerely doubt your friend was offered scholarships for taking a pre SAT test.

[Latrinsorm]

I have NEVER understood this. The other Standardized tests of education (SATs ACTs etc) are the same way. How is information and knowledge racially bias?My grandfather (God rest his soul!) pulled me aside one day and taught me about Helios, the Greek God of the Sun. I think that had he been a sharecropper rather than a college-educated banker, he would have been unlikely to impart this knowledge to me.

What does that anecdote have to do with anything? Nothing. Read a book, for Christ's sake, you're not the foundry of creation.

[Latrinsorm]

I also sincerely doubt your friend was offered scholarships for taking a pre SAT test.I was wondering wtf this came from in that other thread.

[Parkbandit]

It's a function and legacy of socio economic disenfranchisement. For example, if your grandmother was raised on a plantation and intentionally precluded from learning how to read, then chances are she doesn't have the same ability to guide you and help you develop that other kids had.

It is continually perpetuated by such things as education being a function of local tax revenues. So, if you're poor, you get less resources in order to overcome this deficency. Wash, rinse and repeat.

How many generations can that actually be used as an excuse? The last slaves were 150 years ago.. given birthrate statistics, that's at least 6 generations. Any grandmothers you describe would be long dead by now.

[Warriorbird]

Ah. And the civil rights movement was going on back when you were born... so obviously everything's perfect now that we have a black President.

[radamanthys]

So. A test is biased against those without education.

Congrats. That's the fucking point.

[Drew]

Miami P.D. had a similar problem on their recruitment test. It had a section that required swimming and climbing a 5 foot wall amongst other things. Women by and large failed the 5 foot wall test and black people failed the swimming test. Solution? Remove the wall and swimming sections of the test.


Luckily there is no water or 5 foot walls in Miami.

[Methais]

Yea. I totally have that problem and you definitely hit close to home with your racist drivel

When you troll every thread on the PC it's ok but when I troll it's racism. Big shocker there!

[Warriorbird]

Gosh Rad, Methais, & Drew. Us poor white people. We face so much discrimination. Whatever will we do? How about we blame our problems on minorities.

[Methais]

Gosh, Rad, Methais, & Drew. Us poor white people. We face so much discrimination. Whatever will we do? How about we blame our problems on minorities.

I never saw Gosh post anywhere in this thread.

http://bleedingheartshow.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/vec_obama4.jpg

[Gan]

I would like to see the test. I can't imagine that any test could really be that biased.
Ditto. I heard the story on NPR this morning on the way to work and that was my first question. What exactly is on a fire department promotional test that could be considered racially baised?

Q: You run into a burning house, what do you save first?
1. Big screen TV and the Xbox!
2. Bucket of fried chicken on the table.
3. I aint goin into no burnin house mang!
4. Family member huddled up in the corner.

Seriously?


So. A test is biased against those without education.

Congrats. That's the fucking point.
LOL

[Drew]

Gosh, Rad, Methais, & Drew. Us poor white people. We face so much discrimination. Whatever will we do? How about we blame our problems on minorities.


How you get from "tests should be the same for all people since we are all the same" to "Niggers and jews are ruining it for us white folks" is beyond me.

[radamanthys]

Gosh, Rad, Methais, & Drew. Us poor white people. We face so much discrimination. Whatever will we do? How about we blame our problems on minorities.

I'm not a racist! Not at all! I'm a bourgeois classist! My sole joy is life is oppression of the proletariat!

[Back]

Arabs and asians are fucked.

[Kyra231]

Arabs and asians are fucked.

Fuck you for not mentioning Native Americans you racist.

[radamanthys]

Racist! That's not PC! The proper term is "multicultural-tolerance challanged".

[Back]

Fuck you for not mentioning Native Americans you racist.

lol. And Mongolians.

[Warriorbird]

How you get from "tests should be the same for all people since we are all the same" to "Niggers and jews are ruining it for us white folks" is beyond me.

I dunno... an 'amusing anecdote' about those gosh darn funny women and black people.

[Warriorbird]

I never saw Gosh post anywhere in this thread.

http://bleedingheartshow.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/vec_obama4.jpg

Comma fixed for your sake. No Rocktar.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/52/All_in_the_family.jpg

[Methais]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/52/All_in_the_family.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m2ow2nWvL.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m2ow2nWvL.jpg

http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2006/290/1583_116117558669.jpg

OR

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Dog-Bounty-Hunter-tv-12.jpg

If you couldn't follow the first.

...and well played, btw.

[Parkbandit]

Ah. And the civil rights movement was going on back when you were born... so obviously everything's perfect now that we have a black President.

Again, the point escaped you. How many grandmothers were living on a plantation and were not allowed to learn to read back in the 60's?

[Warriorbird]

Compare the personal struggle that the average black person born in 1895 had to go through to that of the personal struggle the average white person born in 1895 had to go through and then you can get back to me.

They'd experienced segregation their entire lives up to that point.

Lots of educational opportunities there! Heck, how many grandmothers born in 1895 had gotten the opportunity to go to college, no matter what race they were?

We can rationalize away racism a few more times while we're at it. Right now you get closer to having a point. In the 1960's? Yeah...

[Methais]

http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2006/290/1583_116117558669.jpg

OR

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Dog-Bounty-Hunter-tv-12.jpg

http://feministing.com/imageStorage/vaginacostume.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://feministing.com/imageStorage/vaginacostume.jpg

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/Asshole_20Watcher.jpg

[Methais]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj135/Talamasca124/humour/reversegoatse-2.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/8/83/Goatse_candy.jpg

[Methais]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/2eecwtt.png

[Warriorbird]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/cf/Fursecuution.gif

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I also sincerely doubt your friend was offered scholarships for taking a pre SAT test.>>

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but the PSAT is inherently a merit scholarship exam.

[Sean of the Thread]

I pwned the PSAT back in the ritalin days. (In middle school at that)

Didn't get me shit but grief from my family especially when I fucked up the real SAT and ACT.

Instead I got a scholarship for bowling of all things and even fucked that up and ended up bouncing around colleges and then the service which I also managed to fuck up.

<----fuck up

not that it wasn't known already.

[Warriorbird]

We all manage to get by somehow.

[Sean of the Thread]

We all manage to get by somehow.


Some of us BARELY.

I've had to use my man uhm essence just to have a place to stay at the moment.

[Beguiler]

Some of us BARELY.

I've had to use my man uhm essence just to have a place to stay at the moment.

Do I want to know what you mean by this....?

[Sean of the Thread]

Do I want to know what you mean by this....?


Uhmm no comment?

[ElvenFury]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aja6De5Hb48/R4ORHtjxJcI/AAAAAAAAAEU/Use6lOJU_C8/s320/walk-in-sperm-bank-2.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Compare the personal struggle that the average black person born in 1895 had to go through to that of the personal struggle the average white person born in 1895 had to go through and then you can get back to me.

They'd experienced segregation their entire lives up to that point.

Lots of educational opportunities there! Heck, how many grandmothers born in 1895 had gotten the opportunity to go to college, no matter what race they were?

We can rationalize away racism a few more times while we're at it. Right now you get closer to having a point. In the 1960's? Yeah...

So when do we stop looking backwards for excuses and looking forward to taking responsibility? How many generations does it take for people to start saying "WTF!? How the fuck can you still use that for an excuse? Get the over it and do something with your life"

[Warriorbird]

You were talking about grandmothers in the 1960s. All I did was point to when they were born.

[Parkbandit]

You were talking about grandmothers in the 1960s. All I did was point to when they were born.

No one was talking about grandmothers in the 1960's. Daniel referred to grandmothers living on plantations and not being allowed to learn to read/write.

[Warriorbird]

I misread something.


So when do we stop looking backwards for excuses and looking forward to taking responsibility? How many generations does it take for people to start saying "WTF!? How the fuck can you still use that for an excuse? Get the over it and do something with your life"

I think the recent election was an excellent illustration of the enduring power of racism despite all your effort to deny its existence.

For all your whining about minorities I found it noteworthy that Obama critiqued Jackson and Sharpton for precisely what you rail against, and Jackson's 'ball cutting' comment was relative to a speech where Obama said black men needed to 'man up.'

[Parkbandit]

UPDATE:

Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

By MARK SHERMAN
The Associated Press
Monday, June 29, 2009 10:44 AM



WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court has ruled that white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., were unfairly denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as an appeals court judge.

New Haven was wrong to scrap a promotion exam because no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be made lieutenants or captains based on the results, the court said Monday in a 5-4 decision. The city said that it had acted to avoid a lawsuit from minorities.

The ruling could alter employment practices nationwide, potentially limiting the circumstances in which employers can be held liable for decisions when there is no evidence of intentional discrimination against minorities.

"Fear of litigation alone cannot justify an employer's reliance on race to the detriment of individuals who passed the examinations and qualified for promotions," Justice Anthony Kennedy said in his opinion for the court. He was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the white firefighters "understandably attract this court's sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them."

Justices Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens signed onto Ginsburg's dissent, which she read aloud in court Monday.

Kennedy's opinion made only passing reference to the work of Sotomayor and the other two judges on the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals who upheld a lower court ruling in favor of New Haven.

But the appellate judges have been criticized for producing a cursory opinion that failed to deal with "indisputably complex and far from well-settled" questions, in the words of another appeals court judge, Sotomayor mentor Jose Cabranes.

"This perfunctory disposition rests uneasily with the weighty issues presented by this appeal," Cabranes said, in a dissent from the full 2nd Circuit's decision not to hear the case.

Monday's decision has its origins in New Haven's need to fill vacancies for lieutenants and captains in its fire department. It hired an outside firm to design a test, which was given to 77 candidates for lieutenant and 41 candidates for captain.

Fifty six firefighters passed the exams, including 41 whites, 22 blacks and 18 Hispanics. But of those, only 17 whites and two Hispanics could expect promotion.

The city eventually decided not to use the exam to determine promotions. It said it acted because it might have been vulnerable to claims that the exam had a "disparate impact" on minorities in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The white firefighters said the decision violated the same law's prohibition on intentional discrimination.

Kennedy said an employer needs a "strong basis in evidence" to believe it will be held liable in a disparate impact lawsuit. New Haven had no such evidence, he said.

The city declined to validate the test after it was given, a step that could have identified flaws or determined that there were no serious problems with it. In addition, city officials could not say what was wrong with the test, other than the racially skewed results.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/29/AR2009062901608_pf.html

Good to see justice finally prevailed.

[NocturnalRob]

in a 5-4 decision

i agree, but this still bothers me.

[Euler]

why don't they don't just make a whole bunch of different fire departments?
You could have the Black Brigade, the Honkey Hosemen, Gays in Galoshes, Chinese Fire Drill Team, La Raza Response, etc....

I should be king.

[Androidpk]

i agree, but this still bothers me.

Bothers you that it happened in the first place or that it got overturned?

[4a6c1]

Haha. Fucking awesome.


So. A test is biased against those without education.

Congrats. That's the fucking point.

Also, I love you. Lets Cyber. I'll be the sweaty fat man, you be the sailor.

[Parkbandit]

Bothers you that it happened in the first place or that it got overturned?

Probably that 4 of our Supreme Court Justices sided with the city.

[NocturnalRob]

Probably that 4 of our Supreme Court Justices sided with the city.
:yeahthat:

[AnticorRifling]

So wait does that mean I'm going to get hired becuase of my qualifications and now just how I look on a demographic survey?! That's totally unfair.

I've never been a fan of the race issue, mostly because I don't think I really understand it. Where I grew up we, and by we I mean everyone that wasn't a douche bag, all got along. I actually didn't get a taste of racism until I went to bootcamp and saw white guys, mexicans, and black guys forming into three groups in the barracks. I went to bootcamp with a black kid from my town so I didn't realize when he was cracking jokes about me and I of him that it people really thought shit like that was serious.

[Methais]

In before "This proves racism is alive in America" claims.

The solution for both sides is simple: Let those in charge of promotions/hiring/etc. base it strictly on the test results, without even knowing whose test it is until after they've decided to give or decline a promotion.

Same for hiring practices and all that shit.

Unfortunately, a solution saturated with common sense such as this is probably considered blasphemy (and somehow still racism) these days.

[Keller]

In before "This proves racism is alive in America" claims.

The solution for both sides is simple: Let those in charge of promotions/hiring/etc. base it strictly on the test results, without even knowing whose test it is until after they've decided to give or decline a promotion.

Same for hiring practices and all that shit.

Unfortunately, a solution saturated with common sense such as this is probably considered blasphemy (and somehow still racism) these days.

I think the obvious response to your suggestion is that it does not deal with institutional racism in America.

I think the counter-argument is that we've dealt with the spector of institutional racism over the last few decades of affirmative action. Any residual efforts at this point will hurt society more than it will help American minorities (because we'll be forced to have less competent fire fighters, for example).

It's not an easy issue. You can't take centuries of malfeasence and pretend it's cured over the course of a couple of decades. But at the same time, you can't continue to "cure" that malfeasance until the effects no longer exist because, at the end of the day, we're all worse off for it.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm pretty sure the only reason you replied to Methais is so you could use malfeasance multiple times in the same post.

[Methais]

Malfeasance sounds like a very vile act involving turds being forcefully ripped from your anus.

[4a6c1]

Misfeasance is determined in relation to privity of contract. When a contract creates a duty that does not exist at common law, the parties can do one of three things: (1) perform the duty fully; (2) perform the duty inadequately or poorly; or (3) fail to perform the duty at all. When a party fails to perform at all, it is nonfeasance. When a party performs the duty inadequately or poorly, it is misfeasance. Malfeasance is used to denote outright sabotage which causes intentional damage.

[AestheticDeath]

It's a function and legacy of socio economic disenfranchisement. For example, if your grandmother was raised on a plantation and intentionally precluded from learning how to read, then chances are she doesn't have the same ability to guide you and help you develop that other kids had.

It is continually perpetuated by such things as education being a function of local tax revenues. So, if you're poor, you get less resources in order to overcome this deficency. Wash, rinse and repeat.

Still not a race issue. Black woman may have been on a plantation her family didn't own, but my own caucasian grandmother grew up in the fields along with most of her family. They didn't get to go to school either. To this day she misspells things, has very poor reading and writing skills etc. She functions on a daily basis, but I would hate to see her try and pass a GED test, or SAT etc.

And honestly I cannot recall my parents or family members putting much effort into helping me with school. Anything I learned was at school or on my own, usually even sleeping through classes.

[AestheticDeath]

I went to bootcamp with a black kid from my town so I didn't realize when he was cracking jokes about me and I of him that it people really thought shit like that was serious.

Can you clarify this part for me?

[Keller]

Still not a race issue. Black woman may have been on a plantation her family didn't own, but my own caucasian grandmother grew up in the fields along with most of her family. They didn't get to go to school either. To this day she misspells things, has very poor reading and writing skills etc. She functions on a daily basis, but I would hate to see her try and pass a GED test, or SAT etc.

And honestly I cannot recall my parents or family members putting much effort into helping me with school. Anything I learned was at school or on my own, usually even sleeping through classes.

I think it would be best if "affirmative action" was based on economic factors and not race.

But I'm not sure how you can equate your white grandmother choosing to work in a field to a slave. Sure, your grandmother grew up in a culture that did not promote education. But she also didn't grow up in an environment in which the ability to read was punishable by death. I'm not disagreeing that it's about poverty, not race. But I don't agree that you can equate the working poor to slaves.

[Keller]

Misfeasance is determined in relation to privity of contract. When a contract creates a duty that does not exist at common law, the parties can do one of three things: (1) perform the duty fully; (2) perform the duty inadequately or poorly; or (3) fail to perform the duty at all. When a party fails to perform at all, it is nonfeasance. When a party performs the duty inadequately or poorly, it is misfeasance. Malfeasance is used to denote outright sabotage which causes intentional damage.

Did you check Merriam Webster's Dictionary before Wikipedia?

[4a6c1]

There are systems in place for children to get education, help and encouragement. Poverty, race and place of birth is no longer relevant to success.

http://www.afterschool.gov/

http://www.sayyescenters.org/

http://www.bbbs.org - big brothers big sisters

http://www.bgca.org/ - boys and girls club

What's interesting is a black chick I used to work with told me about all these. I was trying to make excuses for some idiots we worked with and she wouldnt let me.

Bottom line, if a poor parent doesnt enroll their children in the Boys and Girls club for 10 dollars a year I feel sorry for the kid. Not because they have it bad, but because their parents just dont care enough to help them out.

[Stanley Burrell]

There are systems in place for children to get education, help and encouragement. Poverty, race and place of birth is no longer relevant to success.

http://www.afterschool.gov/

http://www.sayyescenters.org/

http://www.bbbs.org - big brothers big sisters

http://www.bgca.org/ - boys and girls club

What's interesting is a black chick I used to work with told me about all these. I was trying to make excuses for some idiots we worked with and she wouldnt let me.

Bottom line, if a poor parent doesnt enroll their children in the Boys and Girls club for 10 dollars a year I feel sorry for the kid. Not because they have it bad, but because their parents just dont care enough to help them out.

Jihna's ghetto booty is blackalicious.

[Keller]

Poverty, race and place of birth is no longer relevant to success.

Unfortunately, the empirical evidence suggests you're . . . inaccurate.

To be sure, there are more options available to poor, minority, born in the ghetto children -- but that doesn't mean that (i) their parents will know about them, (ii) their parents will make the effort to make them go, or (iii) the kid, being all of 8 years old, would rather spend his afternoon reading Bridge Terribithia instead of pwning noobs in Call of Duty.

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.

Be honest. Do you REALLY think those things are "no longer relevant to success"?

[Stanley Burrell]

Unfortunately, the empirical evidence suggests you're . . . inaccurate.

To be sure, there are more options available to poor, minority, born in the ghetto children -- but that doesn't mean that (i) their parents will know about them, (ii) their parents will make the effort to make them go, or (iii) the kid, being all of 8 years old, would rather spend his afternoon reading Bridge Terribithia instead of pwning noobs in Call of Duty.

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.

Be honest. Do you REALLY think those things are "no longer relevant to success"?

Fuck the suburbs. I'd rather grow up in the city any day.

Goddamn claustrophobic white picket-fencing.

[diethx]

I think it would be best if "affirmative action" was based on economic factors and not race.

But I'm not sure how you can equate your white grandmother choosing to work in a field to a slave. Sure, your grandmother grew up in a culture that did not promote education. But she also didn't grow up in an environment in which the ability to read was punishable by death. I'm not disagreeing that it's about poverty, not race. But I don't agree that you can equate the working poor to slaves.

What I got from his post was that his grandmother was forced to work on her family's farm. There was no choice involved. While i'm sure she wasn't mistreated like slaves were, she still had no choice.

[4a6c1]

Be honest. Do you REALLY think those things are "no longer relevant to success"?

Hell yeah. Most of the rich white kids I know went to Baylor on scholarships and are now lazy in middle class jobs.

Which is opposite of the so-called poverty-stricken minorites I know who have pursued education to the highest degree and/or did something really awesome like write a thesis on molecular biology. Those people are doers and not the type to lean on excuses.

I really dont hear your perspective used in the real world ever, sorry.

[Warriorbird]

Isn't that because the only non Republicans you ever spend time with are Buddhists?

;)

[4a6c1]

Isn't that because the only non Republicans you ever spend time with are Buddhists?

;)

pwnd

:(

[Keller]

Hell yeah. Most of the rich white kids I know went to Baylor on scholarships and are now lazy in middle class jobs.

Which is opposite of the so-called minorites I know who have pursued education to the highest degree and/or did something really awesome like write a thesis on molecular biology. Those people are doers and not the type to lean on excuses.

I really dont hear your perspective used in the real world ever, sorry.

I really don't know what to tell you.

The empirical studies are available. If you can find a single study showing that poverty does not depress a child's chances for adult-success I would be interested to see it. I'm sure there are studies showing that race/environment don't depress chances for success, but I'd be interested to see if there is anything available to show that poverty is "no longer relevant."

[Parkbandit]

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.


Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, black, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, white, from the ghetto.

[4a6c1]

I really don't know what to tell you.

The empirical studies are available. If you can find a single study showing that poverty does not depress a child's chances for adult-success I would be interested to see it. I'm sure there are studies showing that race/environment don't depress chances for success, but I'd be interested to see if there is anything available to show that poverty is "no longer relevant."


I understand what you are trying to say and I've read the studies. It makes sense. But against all odds I have found the opposite to be true.

Call it a personal opinion I guess, non-clinical.

[Stretch]

Hell yeah. Most of the rich white kids I know went to Baylor on scholarships and are now lazy in middle class jobs.

Which is opposite of the so-called poverty-stricken minorites I know who have pursued education to the highest degree and/or did something really awesome like write a thesis on molecular biology. Those people are doers and not the type to lean on excuses.

I really dont hear your perspective used in the real world ever, sorry.

This argument doesn't hold water. Anecdotal experiences aside, I'd put a crapload more money on people being born into shitty situations staying in those situations. People born into privilege probably won't sink too many rungs.

Looking at outliers is a bad idea from any point of view. For every Pursuit of Happyness story, there are probably several stories full of fail.

[Keller]

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, black, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, white, from the ghetto.

Did you not read the last few posts? Or did you not understand them?

[Parkbandit]

Did you not read the last few posts? Or did you not understand them?

I understood them fine.. I just believe your premise that race is the determining factor is ridiculous.

Maybe I should dumb it down for you a bit?

[Keller]

I understood them fine.. I just believe your premise that race is the determining factor is ridiculous.

Maybe I should dumb it down for you a bit?

Do you understand the difference between a definite article and an indefinite article?

[Parkbandit]

Do you understand the difference between a definite article and an indefinite article?

Here is your post:




Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.


I found fault at it and changed it to:

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, black, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, white, from the ghetto.


I'm sure we can both agree the original premise you posted was stupid... which I enjoyed highlighting.

Sorry I hurt your feelings though. :*(

[Keller]

Here is your post:



I found fault at it and changed it to:

Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, black, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, white, from the ghetto.


I'm sure we can both agree the original premise you posted was stupid... which I enjoyed highlighting.

Sorry I hurt your feelings though. :*(

Ahhh, so you didn't read Jihnas's post to which I was responding.

I wish you would have just told me that, so you didn't look so silly.

[Warriorbird]

I understand what you are trying to say and I've read the studies. It makes sense. But against all odds I have found the opposite to be true.

Call it a personal opinion I guess, non-clinical.

You live in Texas. It's sort of bad to compare it to the rest of the country. Weren't you in Alaska previously? Again... not the most average of states. Military settings? They also make for a great degree of leveling. Still... one can rather definitely look at a gender regarding advancement in the US military if one wants to see some examples.

::

It would have been judicial activism for this case to overturn entire swaths of law. I'm not hearing about 'evil judicial activism.' in this thread.

[4a6c1]

You live in Texas. It's sort of bad to compare it to the rest of the country. Weren't you in Alaska previously? Again... not the most average of states. Military settings? They also make for a great degree of leveling. Still... one can rather definitely look at a gender regarding advancement in the US military if one wants to see some examples.

::

It would have been judicial activism for this case to overturn entire swaths of law. I'm not hearing about 'evil judicial activism.' in this thread.

I've lived everywhere and then I came back to Texas. I still dont see any practical application to the idea that race, poverty and place of birth determine situation in life. I've been military and I've been corporate. But neither of those are relevant since both were controlled environments (institution and nepotism respectively).

You were right the first time, all my opinions are drawn from people who I am connected with because of religion. Except for one. A brilliant doctoral student I know who grew up in the streets of Detroit and was enlisted with me. That woman has more drive than any chick I have ever met. She is my shining example of why situation/race cannot hold you back.

Like I mentioned before everything inside of me wants to follow the facts but I am pretty close to this chick and she wont let me give her excuses.

Maybe it is wrong for me to hold everyone else to the same standards?

[Parkbandit]

Ahhh, so you didn't read Jihnas's post to which I was responding.

I wish you would have just told me that, so you didn't look so silly.

Ahh.. so you posted this:




Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.


And just posted it as a response to Jihna and really don't believe the bullshit you post. Granted, this is the opinion I have when reading your posts.. it's refreshing that you also have that opinion of yourself. Good ol' fashioned honesty.

I find that if you actually post things you believe and positions that you actually subscribe to, people won't call you out for making a stupid post.

[Keller]

Ahh.. so you posted this:



And just posted it as a response to Jihna and really don't believe the bullshit you post. Granted, this is the opinion I have when reading your posts.. it's refreshing that you also have that opinion of yourself. Good ol' fashioned honesty.

I find that if you actually post things you believe and positions that you actually subscribe to, people won't call you out for making a stupid post.'

So the only difference you saw between those two people (poor/black/ghetto and rich/white/suburbs) was race?

[AestheticDeath]

I think it would be best if "affirmative action" was based on economic factors and not race.

But I'm not sure how you can equate your white grandmother choosing to work in a field to a slave. Sure, your grandmother grew up in a culture that did not promote education. But she also didn't grow up in an environment in which the ability to read was punishable by death. I'm not disagreeing that it's about poverty, not race. But I don't agree that you can equate the working poor to slaves.

She didn't choose to work, she was forced to. Parents having control over kids and all that. Once she 'grew up' she wound up going into hair cutting or something. Never really got an education.

[Daniel]

There are systems in place for children to get education, help and encouragement. Poverty, race and place of birth is no longer relevant to success.

http://www.afterschool.gov/

http://www.sayyescenters.org/

http://www.bbbs.org - big brothers big sisters

http://www.bgca.org/ - boys and girls club

What's interesting is a black chick I used to work with told me about all these. I was trying to make excuses for some idiots we worked with and she wouldnt let me.

Bottom line, if a poor parent doesnt enroll their children in the Boys and Girls club for 10 dollars a year I feel sorry for the kid. Not because they have it bad, but because their parents just dont care enough to help them out.

Uh...so you feel no sympathy for a kid who got a bad shake in life through no fault of his own?

That makes sense.

Kinda like rice being an ivy.

[Parkbandit]

'

So the only difference you saw between those two people (poor/black/ghetto and rich/white/suburbs) was race?

If race had nothing to do with it, then why did you insert that foolish position into a thread about race? Your assertion would have been fine had you not included it... but foolish since you did.

I appreciate your homage to Michael Jackson.. but your moonwalk is pretty weak.

[Daniel]

Still not a race issue. Black woman may have been on a plantation her family didn't own, but my own caucasian grandmother grew up in the fields along with most of her family. They didn't get to go to school either. To this day she misspells things, has very poor reading and writing skills etc. She functions on a daily basis, but I would hate to see her try and pass a GED test, or SAT etc.

And honestly I cannot recall my parents or family members putting much effort into helping me with school. Anything I learned was at school or on my own, usually even sleeping through classes.

Holy bump.

Your inability to process the difference between forced servitude and relative social standing is astounding.

At no point in time would someone have killed someone in your family for teaching people how to read or would have disallowed them from obtaining whatever they desired and were capable of. There's a difference.

[Methais]

Do you understand the difference between a definite article and an indefinite article?

A definite article is definite, whereas an indefinite article is not.

DUH!

[Parkbandit]

Uh...so you feel no sympathy for a kid who got a bad shake in life through no fault of his own?

That makes sense.

Kinda like rice being an ivy.

Plenty of people get a bad shake in life.. it's how they overcome it that defines their character. I have far more respect for someone who came from nothing and made something out of themselves than someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

[Methais]

Bottom line, if a poor parent doesnt enroll their children in the Boys and Girls club for 10 dollars a year I feel sorry for the kid. Not because they have it bad, but because their parents just dont care enough to help them out.

Maybe I'm misreading, but how can you bad for the kid cause his parents suck, but not because he has it bad, when the fact that his parents suck is most likely the very reason he has it bad?

[Daniel]

Plenty of people get a bad shake in life.. it's how they overcome it that defines their character. I have far more respect for someone who came from nothing and made something out of themselves than someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

I absolutely agree.

Nothing you've said is mutually exclusive from anything I've said.

If you haven't noticed I take pride in the fact that I've overcome adversity and I wouldn't do it over again. That said, I wouldn't neccessary expect or want everyone in this world to do the things I've done to be "successful", which in the grand scheme of things I'm still a ways away from.

The problem I have is when it can be statistically demonstrated a certain group of people are not able to overcome adversity irregardless of their personal character, perserverence and work ethic.

This problem is not limited to blk\white\hispanic\sexuality or anything else you can throw out there. It's a general problem that I have.

[Keller]

If race had nothing to do with it, then why did you insert that foolish position into a thread about race? Your assertion would have been fine had you not included it... but foolish since you did.

I appreciate your homage to Michael Jackson.. but your moonwalk is pretty weak.

Why can't you just admit when you're dead wrong?

Not only can you not admit when you're wrong, but you just get more belligerent. I guess that's what I get for trying to be civil and coach you.

I never said did not have anything to do with it. I'll repeat my question, do you understand the distinction between a definite article (such as the one you used) and an indefinite article (such as an article you didn't use)?

Again, in case your memory isn't what it used to be:

I just believe your premise that race is the determining factor is ridiculous.

[Fallen]

Plenty of people get a bad shake in life.. it's how they overcome it that defines their character. I have far more respect for someone who came from nothing and made something out of themselves than someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

What I don't understand is why more poor don't join the military. Short of having a record, or not being a citizen of this country (or some sort of illness), the military will provide you with amazing opportunities regardless of your background. ANYONE could be where I am in life. Hell, if they applied themselves, they could have been far beyond where I am now.

This opportunity is available to men and women age 35 and under. All walks of life (aside from openly gay). 100% paid tuition while you're in, Badass GI bill if you just want to do 4 and out. Just can't fathom the idea of people in this country not having every opportunity in the world to succeed until recruiters start turning people away at the door.

[Stanley Burrell]

What I don't understand is why more poor don't join the military. Short of having a record, or not being a citizen of this country (or some sort of illness), the military will provide you with amazing opportunities regardless of your background. ANYONE could be where I am in life. Hell, if they applied themselves, they could have been far beyond where I am now.

The answer is because poor people don't own TVs so they can't see the awesome and realistic depictions of joining the services as is depicted on any sort of propaganda advertising you watch on the tube.

[Fallen]

The answer is because poor people don't own TVs so they can't see the awesome and realistic depictions of joining the services as is depicted on any sort of propaganda advertising you watch on the tube.

I honestly don't understand why it isn't seen as a primary career choice for people after high school. Boggles the mind.

[Stanley Burrell]

I honestly don't understand why it isn't seen as a primary career choice for people after high school. Boggles the mind.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not but being poor != instantly joining Armed Services X. I know a couple poor people that would go from being happy to pretty fucking miserable if they enlisted, which is probably why they don't.

[Daniel]

I honestly don't understand why it isn't seen as a primary career choice for people after high school. Boggles the mind.

From an African American Standpoint there is still a lot of residual skepticsm stemming from the way African Americans were pushed into combat arms jobs during Vietnam.

That said, I freely admit that the Military saved my life and I've convinced 6 of my friends from back home to join over the last decade or so.

[Fallen]

From an African American Standpoint there is still a lot of residual skepticsm stemming from the way African Americans were pushed into combat arms jobs during Vietnam.

That said, I freely admit that the Military saved my life and I've convinced 6 of my friends from back home to join over the last decade or so.

Really? I would never have guessed there is some sort of widespread racial stigma regarding the armed forces. Most of my Drill Sergeants were black or hispanic. I've tried to convince some of my friends from back home to join. Some poor people actually ARE lazy bastards. Good on you for having better luck than I.


I can't tell if you're being serious or not but being poor != instantly joining Armed Services X. I know a couple poor people that would go from being happy to pretty fucking miserable if they enlisted, which is probably why they don't.

I'm talking about poor people who actually want to get ahead, and wish to do more than just blame others for keeping them down.

[Daniel]

Really? I would never have guessed there is some sort of widespread racial stigma regarding the armed forces. Most of my Drill Sergeants were black or hispanic. I've tried to convince some of my friends from back home to join. Some poor people actually ARE lazy bastards. Good on you for having better luck than I.



Like I said. It's residual skepticism. Blacks and Hispanics were not really treated well in the military services up until the 80's. They have made massive inroads into the enlisted ranks but there is still some issues related to officers. For instance, there have only been like 3-4 African American 4 star generals and I'm pretty sure the numbers are no better for any other ethnic group.

[nub]

Plenty of people get a bad shake in life.. it's how they overcome it that defines their character. I have far more respect for someone who came from nothing and made something out of themselves than someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

However, there are times when people do have what it takes, just like someone else who overcame a bad life, but things just don't fall into place no matter how hard they try.

I've known people who they seem to get things going, and all of the sudden BAM, something bad happens that is not their fault like a family member dying. Or someone taking everything they had built up. They trust someone, and said person betrays them. Everytime said person tries to do something good, they have the worst luck or put trust in the wrong people. They have no childhood, and try to do the best.

The blame heavily lies on the upbringing and everyone surrounding them. The upbringing can cause people to make the wrong decision even if they think it is the right one. It is a loop and unless there are OTHER PEOPLE there surrounding them and encouraging them the cycle will continue.

I wrote a paper back in college, I used to be a firm supporter to get rid of affirmative action and I wrote on it. But come to find out, it is actually a good idea, we just need to find a better way to implement it. I do like some social programs, people do need help, not everyone can do things on their own, especially when they don't know anything else to do.

[Parkbandit]

Why can't you just admit when you're dead wrong?

Not only can you not admit when you're wrong, but you just get more belligerent. I guess that's what I get for trying to be civil and coach you.

I never said did not have anything to do with it. I'll repeat my question, do you understand the distinction between a definite article (such as the one you used) and an indefinite article (such as an article you didn't use)?

Again, in case your memory isn't what it used to be:

What exactly am I wrong about?

You posted something stupid. I reversed two words showing you posted something stupid.. and you've been moonwalking like a crazed lunatic since then.

I'll answer your stupid question: Yes.

Now answer mine. If race had nothing to do with anything in the part of your post I've quoted, why did you post it in the first place.. in a thread clearly about race?

And let's be honest.. there is and never has been anything civil about you.. and I certainly need no coaching from you.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm talking about poor people who actually want to get ahead, and wish to do more than just blame others for keeping them down.

Yep. This is 100% what each and every poor person does who doesn't instantly enlist in the military for lucrative purposes.

[Fallen]

Yep. This is 100% what each and every poor person does who doesn't instantly enlist in the military for lucrative purposes.

And you can without any doubt in this world come to that conclusion from what I said. Every time, all the time. You're coming off as bitter, Stan.

[Parkbandit]

And you can without any doubt in this world come to that conclusion from what I said. Every time, all the time. You're coming off as bitter, Stan.

It might just be a guilty conscious...

[Stanley Burrell]

And you can without any doubt in this world come to that conclusion from what I said. Every time, all the time. You're coming off as bitter, Stan.

Alright.

[Keller]

Now answer mine. If race had nothing to do with anything in the part of your post I've quoted, why did you post it in the first place.. in a thread clearly about race?


Poverty, race and place of birth is no longer relevant to success.



show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.

I never said race had nothing to do with my post. Obviously it was 1/3d of the factors involved.

If you still can't understand why I listed those three factors, after I've gone to great lengths to explain it to you, then I'm sorry. I can't help you.

[Stanley Burrell]

I don't want to keep this going, but I am kind of morbidly curious about:


I'm talking about poor people who actually want to get ahead, and wish to do more than just blame others for keeping them down.

Why (or are you even) assuming that instead of being a hypothetical poor person who also bitches and moans, that the military would be the first and foremost ideal choice for acting as a mechanism to stop blaming others for keeping them down?

I'm not bitter, yet, but I don't understand what the heck joining the military has to do with best-ameliorating the aches and pains of being a poor person who blames others for keeping them down and, that (enlisting), is inherently the best option of getting ahead?

Fallen, the armed services is one job that could, yes, get a hypothetical lazy poor person off their feet. Why would it best suit the poor bitcher-moaner? Or be illogical that less lower-income individuals are joining than you expect? ...Why isn't it surprising that so many poor people are joining the services? Or that just the right amount of poor people are joining the services?

I haven't done anything military for quite a while, and, had I been (up to this point in my life), I'd be having a huge problem right now with going against that particular agenda that would have been instilled in me, but I really don't get where your head is on this one.

Sorry to perpetuate this.

Edit: I'm not bent on wordplay, I'm just trying to figure this out really.

[Fallen]

I don't want to keep this going, but I am kind of morbidly curious about:



Why (or are you even) assuming that instead of being a hypothetical poor person who also bitches and moans, that the military would be the first and foremost ideal choice for acting as a mechanism to stop blaming others for keeping them down?

I'm not bitter, yet, but I don't understand what the heck joining the military has to do with best-ameliorating the aches and pains of being a poor person who blames others for keeping them down and, that (enlisting), is inherently the best option of getting ahead?

Fallen, the armed services is one job that could, yes, get a hypothetical lazy poor person off their feet. Why would it best suit the poor bitcher-moaner? Or be illogical that less lower-income individuals are joining than you expect? ...Why isn't it surprising that so many poor people are joining the services? Or that just the right amount of poor people are joining the services?

I haven't done anything military for quite a while, and, had I been, I'd be having a huge problem with going against the own agenda that was taught to me, but I really don't get where your head is on this one.

Sorry to perpetuate this.

Edit: I'm not bent on wordplay, I'm just trying to figure this out really.

You're skipping points along the discussion. I said I can't fathom why more poor people don't consider the military as a primary means of bettering themselves. You respond that some poor people are happy. I say in turn that I am talking about the poor people who aren't "happy" being poor. Those that want to improve their lives HAVE the means to do so by way of joining the military. Complaints of race, background, social standing, financial situation, etc, are are to a large extent moot when considering service to your country. You have no one to blame but yourself if you have the means to meet the Armed Forces standards of acceptance, yet choose not to join.

[4a6c1]

That makes sense.

Kinda like rice being an ivy.

Touche.

And I dont know why I got into this discussion in the first place. The only minorities I know are rich, yoga-doing, vegans who would rather get a wheatgrass enema, while doing a handstand, at a doctors without borders benefit! than argue about anything, EVER. Much less the residual societal implications of skin color. Unless that color was green.

[Apotheosis]

:popcorn2: :whipit:

[Parkbandit]

I never said race had nothing to do with my post. Obviously it was 1/3d of the factors involved.

If you still can't understand why I listed those three factors, after I've gone to great lengths to explain it to you, then I'm sorry. I can't help you.

A 360 moonwalk.



Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, white, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, black, from the ghetto.



Again, show me a single person who grew up rich, black, from the 'burbs who would willingly trade places with a kid who grew up poor, white, from the ghetto.

So we're back to my original post...

You now admit (after not admitting) that race is a factor. I claim it's not.

I expect you can find me some rich black kids that would have rather grown up poor and white in the ghetto then.

Let me guess.. for your next trick.. a 540 moonwalk?

[Daniel]

Touche.

And I dont know why I got into this discussion in the first place. The only minorities I know are rich, yoga-doing, vegans who would rather get a wheatgrass enema, while doing a handstand, at a doctors without borders benefit! than argue about anything, EVER. Much less the residual societal implications of skin color. Unless that color was green.

They hot?

[Keller]

You now admit (after not admitting) that race is a factor. I claim it's not.



I understood them fine.. I just believe your premise that race is the determining factor is ridiculous.


Remember at the very beginning of your meltdown when I asked you if you knew the difference between a definite and indefinite article?

This is why.

[Keller]

You now admit (after not admitting) that race is a factor.

Also, if you could point me in the direction of my post claiming I said race wasn't a factor, I'd appreciate it.

[4a6c1]

They hot?

So not giving you details.*



*Never trust a soldier with your hippie girlfriends.

[Daniel]

So not giving you details.*



*Never trust a soldier with your hippie girlfriends.

I'm a civilian now and I work with hippies all the time.

[Stanley Burrell]

You have no one to blame but yourself if you have the means to meet the Armed Forces standards of acceptance, yet choose not to join.

Now I'm confused.

Why would someone feel the need to blame themselves for not joining the Armed Forces assuming they met the particular criteria for military enlistment?

You could say the same thing about any set of standards upheld by a jillion different institutions and it would (imho) hold just as much merit. If someone's cut out for the Army but doesn't meet the criteria to be a medical doctor, do they kick themselves respectively?

Does the poor person who actually wants to get ahead, and wishes to do more than just blame others for keeping them down start studying the MCATS or begin military training?


I honestly don't understand why it isn't seen as a primary career choice for people after high school. Boggles the mind.

There are (including poor) people of every ethos, creed, religion, sometimes sexual denomination, gender and race who don't join the military the second they get out of high school. Okay. Why should this be mind-boggling, in your perspective?

[Fallen]

Again, Stanley, you are taking snippets of what I say, and removing them from their context. Why?


Why would someone feel the need to blame themselves for not joining the Armed Forces assuming they met the particular criteria for military enlistment?

Because they have met the criteria of one who had the means to advance their financial, social, and whatever other criteria of success in life, along with having the desire to do so. Yet, they choose not to. Now, you seem to think I am saying all people who are capable of joining the Armed Services SHOULD join. Why? I don't know. I haven't been saying that so far, and I don't plan on saying that now. I am saying those that wish to get ahead in life CAN do so, nearly regardless of their current social(racial/religious/etc) standing, by means of the military. Many CHOOSE to remain IN POVERTY rather than join the military. The WHY of that, the choice to remain UNHAPPILY poor, confuses me.


There are (including poor) people of every ethos, creed, religion, sometimes sexual denomination, gender and race who don't join the military the second they get out of high school. Okay. Why should this be mind-boggling, in your perspective?

Again, we are discussing people across the large stratosphere of backgrounds which you mentioned, who HAVE THE DESIRE TO MOVE AHEAD IN LIFE, yet otherwise LACK THE MEANS TO DO SO. The Armed Forces provides that means.

[AestheticDeath]

Stan he obviously got a lot out of the military himself, and seems to think everyone else will as well.

But not everyone sees it that way, and there are tons of reasons why some people might not want to join up no matter how many benefits are thrown in their faces.

[Stanley Burrell]

Again, Stanley, you are taking snippets of what I say, and removing them from their context. Why?

Because that's the particular part of your post I'm responding to.

[Fallen]

Stan he obviously got a lot out of the military himself, and seems to think everyone else will as well.

But not everyone sees it that way, and there are tons of reasons why some people might not want to join up no matter how many benefits are thrown in their faces.

I was speaking with someone who grew up in the poorer areas of New York, and they claimed that they never saw recruiters in their schools. Nor did they see any recruiter stations in neighborhood malls or office areas. Can anyone else attest to this?

I came from a fairly affluent area, and while we weren't swamped with recruiters, I did see them from time to time, and there were certainly offices in the area.

[Fallen]

Because that's the particular part of your post I'm responding to.

Well, as you chose only that list bit of my most recent post to respond to I take it you fully understood the rest. It took a while, but we got there.

[Methais]

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq160/emocarnage666/PISS.jpg

[diethx]

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq160/emocarnage666/PISS.jpg

http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1193000424-HappycatMonocle.b.jpg

[Methais]

http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1193000424-HappycatMonocle.b.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/Tourettes_Guy_by_ChaoSpider.jpg

[diethx]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/Tourettes_Guy_by_ChaoSpider.jpg

http://imagechan.com/images/65540ea354b2976914a5eb9df9ea402a.jpg

[Methais]

http://imagechan.com/images/65540ea354b2976914a5eb9df9ea402a.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/AlBundy.jpg

[AnticorRifling]

Can you clarify this part for me? Sure. He used to call me a stupid cracker and I used to ask that he refer to me as boss. Dumb shit that we knew to be jokes because really it's 1999 (at the time) who the fuck really thinks like that. Apparently some people still did.

[Parkbandit]

Also, if you could point me in the direction of my post claiming I said race wasn't a factor, I'd appreciate it.

Excellent. So you have a group of rich black kids from the suburbs that would gladly trade places with a group of poor white kids from the ghetto.

Or wait.. maybe you don't.. and that was my point.

It's ok. I realize I can't force someone like you to be less ignorant.

[Keller]

Excellent. So you have a group of rich black kids from the suburbs that would gladly trade places with a group of poor white kids from the ghetto.

Or wait.. maybe you don't.. and that was my point.

It's ok. I realize I can't force someone like you to be less ignorant.

It's okay, boy. I'll wait for you to stop your temper-tantrum and respond to my question.

[Parkbandit]

It's okay, boy. I'll wait for you to stop your temper-tantrum and respond to my question.

LOL. Dude, you need to go back from my first response to your post and re-evaluate who's having a meltdown. I switched two words in your quote that made you look rather foolish and after a 360 tribute to Michael Jackson.. We're still at the point where you still look foolish.

While I can understand your need to lash out, backtrack and then use the old "Nuh uh, You Are!!" reflex, it didn't help you look any better.

Now just calm down for a moment and answer a rather simple question. Do you really believe that a rich black kid , living in the suburbs would gladly switch lives with a poor white kid, living in the ghetto?

If you answered Yes, please provide some sort of proof, since I vehemently disagree with such a notion.

If you answered no, then I can only hope that you figured out my point... Though I won't hold my breath.

[Keller]

LOL. Dude, you need to go back from my first response to your post and re-evaluate who's having a meltdown. I switched two words in your quote that made you look rather foolish and after a 360 tribute to Michael Jackson.. We're still at the point where you still look foolish.

While I can understand your need to lash out, backtrack and then use the old "Nuh uh, You Are!!" reflex, it didn't help you look any better.

Now just calm down for a moment and answer a rather simple question. Do you really believe that a rich black kid , living in the suburbs would gladly switch lives with a poor white kid, living in the ghetto?

If you answered Yes, please provide some sort of proof, since I vehemently disagree with such a notion.

If you answered no, then I can only hope that you figured out my point... Though I won't hold my breath.

Again, I apologize that I'm not getting through to you. It's likely my fault. I'll take responsibility, maybe I'm do a poor job of explaining it.

Let me try this one last time. I really do want you to understand.

I laid out the argument for and against affirmative action. I then explained that I wished we had economic affirmative action because poverty is what causes people to have institutional disadvantages.

Jihnas then claimed that "Poverty, race, and place of birth are no longer relevant to success."

I posited an example that took one extreme (white/rich/burbs) and constrasted it against the other extreme (black/poor/ghetto) to see if any of those factors were still "relevant to success."

You jumped into the thread half-cocked, and decided that all I was talking about was race. You even went so far as to claim that my premise was that race was the determining factor.

I, trying to get you to understand I was testing any of those factors, calmly asked you whether you understood the difference between a definite and an indefinite article.

You got beligerant and continued to claim my premise was that race was the determining factor. You even gave me a faux apology. How cute.

Not to be outdone, you posted more beligerant rants about my "bullshit opinion."

Then you claimed that I said race had nothing to do with my post. I requested that you substantiate that claim. You declined.

I, from the moment you made your post, understood your point. Your point was that you (incorrectly) made the entire distinction between those situations about race, thinking (for a reason I've yet to understand) that race was the factor I was contrasting.

I think, had you taken a moment to consider why I was asking you to distinguish between a definite article and an indefinite article, you would have recognized that you had made an incorrect assumption. Instead you went into attack-dog mode, beligerantly blabbering about how stupid I am, how I post bullshit, that my position was foolish, that I do 360 moonwalks (huh?), etc.

Please let me know if you have any questions about my explanation above. I'm happy to try and help you understand.

[CrystalTears]

You're way too patient, Keller.

I would be in favor of economic affirmative action, seeing as how it's the financial issues that cause people to have a harder time getting anywhere. I'm just not in favor of blanket handouts.

[Parkbandit]

Go ahead and just answer my question. It's a simple task that requires a one word answer. It is either YES or NO.

Once you accomplish that simple task, perhaps we can progress forward. This dance of yours is gettng tiresome.

Just answer the question.

[Keller]

Go ahead and just answer my question. It's a simple task that requires a one word answer. It is either YES or NO.

Once you accomplish that simple task, perhaps we can progress forward. This dance of yours is gettng tiresome.

Just answer the question.

I said, well before you posited the question, that the issue is poverty, not race.

Obviously my answer to your trolling question is No, a rich black kid from the burbs wouldn't swap places with a poor white kid from the ghetto. Not having anything to do with race, but having to do with the opportunities available to the rich kid.

That has been painfully obvious from the beginning. My question to Jihnas, which you failed (and still fail, presumably) to comprehend is whether ANY of the factors she listed were relevant to success. I'm sorry that you can't grasp that distinction.

Why do you cling to race? Why is it the only thing that stands out to you?

[Parkbandit]

I said, well before you posited the question, that the issue is poverty, not race.

Obviously my answer to your trolling question is No, a rich black kid from the burbs wouldn't swap places with a poor white kid from the ghetto. Not having anything to do with race, but having to do with the opportunities available to the rich kid.

That has been painfully obvious from the beginning. My question to Jihnas, which you failed (and still fail, presumably) to comprehend is whether ANY of the factors she listed were relevant to success. I'm sorry that you can't grasp that distinction.

Why do you cling to race? Why is it the only thing that stands out to you?

so had you simply stated in your original post that it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with wealth, you wouldn't have had to dance around for 4 pages now.

For all of your bullshit, I am happy we finally agree that it had nothing to do with race.

You are welcome.

[radamanthys]

There are many, many minorities who are NOT underprivliged.
There are many whites that ARE underprivliged in the same exact ways that are improperly tied to race in many arguments for affirmative action.

Race isn't the issue- socioeconomic status is. It's harder (much harder) to succeed if your parents are wastes of life. And that's the problem. Installing race-based aid actually marginalizes those who are of poor socioeconomic standing, are white, and need the help.

I often refer to three girls who went to elementary school with me. They lived next to eachother in the richest part of Albany. One was of full Jamaican heritage, one was about as irish as you can get- save for her cuban paternal great grandfather who blessed her with the surname 'fernandez', and a blonde white girl. Each had almost identical upbringings and opportunities. Affluent suburbanites the lots of them. The 'latina' and the black girl were given opportunities (read: admissions and scholarships) that they didn't deserve, while the white girl was given nothing. For all intents and purposes, they were the same person in regards to opportunity- they didn't need any of it.

Now, the scholarship to the Ivy league school could have gone to a family that could not afford that tuition, who's child was similarly qualified.

Giving people different considerations solely because of their race. That's racism, and it doesn't work.

[Keller]

so had you simply stated in your original post that it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with wealth, you wouldn't have had to dance around for 4 pages now.

You're either blind, autistic, or both.


I think it would be best if "affirmative action" was based on economic factors and not race.

For the umpteenth time, I culled a list of attributes from the not-relevant factors Jihnas listed. The question was testing whether ANY of those factors were relevant.

Maybe if you were less of a troll and actually had even the slightest intention of participating civilly in a (note: indefinite) thread, you would recognize how silly you look at this point.

[CrystalTears]

I often refer to three girls who went to elementary school with me. They lived next to eachother in the richest part of Albany. One was of full Jamaican heritage, one was about as irish as you can get- save for her cuban paternal great grandfather who blessed her with the surname 'fernandez', and a blonde white girl. Each had almost identical upbringings and opportunities. Affluent suburbanites the lots of them. The 'latina' and the black girl were given opportunities (read: admissions and scholarships) that they didn't deserve, while the white girl was given nothing. For all intents and purposes, they were the same person in regards to opportunity- they didn't need any of it.If they were "identical", why didn't the latin and black girl deserve it? According to your statement, the white girl didn't deserve it either.

I understand what you're getting at; the statement just came off a little hateful, imo.

[Parkbandit]

You're either blind, autistic, or both.



For the umpteenth time, I culled a list of attributes from the not-relevant factors Jihnas listed. The question was testing whether ANY of those factors were relevant.

Maybe if you were less of a troll and actually had even the slightest intention of participating civilly in a (note: indefinite) thread, you would recognize how silly you look at this point.

This certainly was one of the worst worded apologies in quite some time. I do appreciate you maintaining such an air of civility though.

[Methais]

HAY LOK!

12 Things The Negro Must Do For Himself
by Nannie Helen Burroughs

(Circa Early 1900's)

1. The Negro Must Learn To Put First Things First. The First Things Are: Education; Development of Character Traits; A Trade and Home Ownership.

*

The Negro puts too much of his earning in clothes, in food, in show and in having what he calls "a good time." The Dr. Kelly Miller said, "The Negro buys what he WANTS and begs for what he Needs." Too true!

2. The Negro Must Stop Expecting God and White Folk To Do For Him What He Can Do For Himself.

*

It is the "Divine Plan" that the strong shall help the weak, but even God does not do for man what man can do for himself. The Negro will have to do exactly what Jesus told the man (in John 5:8) to do--Carry his own load--"Take up your bed and walk."

3. The Negro Must Keep Himself, His Children And His Home Clean And Make The Surroundings In Which He Lives Comfortable and Attractive.

*

He must learn to "run his community up"--not down. We can segregate by law, we integrate only by living. Civilization is not a matter of race, it is a matter of standards. Believe it or not--some day, some race is going to outdo the Anglo-Saxon, completely. It can be the Negro race, if the Negro gets sense enough. Civilization goes up and down that way.

4. The Negro Must Learn To Dress More Appropriately For Work And For Leisure.

*

Knowing what to wear--how to wear it--when to wear it and where to wear it, are earmarks of common sense, culture and also an index to character.

5. The Negro Must Make His Religion An Everyday Practice And Not Just A Sunday-Go-To-Meeting Emotional Affair.

6. The Negro Must Highly Resolve To Wipe Out Mass Ignorance.

*

The leaders of the race must teach and inspire the masses to become eager and determined to improve mentally, morally and spiritually, and to meet the basic requirements of good citizenship.
*

We should initiate an intensive literacy campaign in America, as well as in Africa. Ignorance--satisfied ignorance--is a millstone abut the neck of the race. It is democracy's greatest burden.
*

Social integration is a relationship attained as a result of the cultivation of kindred social ideals, interests and standards.
*

It is a blending process that requires time, understanding and kindred purposes to achieve. Likes alone and not laws can do it.

7. The Negro Must Stop Charging His Failures Up To His "Color" And To White People's Attitude.

*

The truth of the matter is that good service and conduct will make senseless race prejudice fade like mist before the rising sun.
*

God never intended that a man's color shall be anything other than a badge of distinction. It is high time that all races were learning that fact. The Negro must first QUALIFY for whatever position he wants. Purpose, initiative, ingenuity and industry are the keys that all men use to get what they want. The Negro will have to do the same. He must make himself a workman who is too skilled not to be wanted, and too DEPENDABLE not to be on the job, according to promise or plan. He will never become a vital factor in industry until he learns to put into his work the vitalizing force of initiative, skill and dependability. He has gone "RIGHTS" mad and "DUTY" dumb.

8. The Negro Must Overcome His Bad Job Habits.

*

He must make a brand new reputation for himself in the world of labor. His bad job habits are absenteeism, funerals to attend, or a little business to look after. The Negro runs an off and on business. He also has a bad reputation for conduct on the job--such as petty quarrelling with other help, incessant loud talking about nothing; loafing, carelessness, due to lack of job pride; insolence, gum chewing and--too often--liquor drinking. Just plain bad job habits!

9. He Must Improve His Conduct In Public Places.

*

Taken as a whole, he is entirely too loud and too ill-mannered.
*

There is much talk about wiping out racial segregation and also much talk about achieving integration.
*

Segregation is a physical arrangement by which people are separated in various services.
*

It is definitely up to the Negro to wipe out the apparent justification or excuse for segregation.
*

The only effective way to do it is to clean up and keep clean. By practice, cleanliness will become a habit and habit becomes character.

10. The Negro Must Learn How To Operate Business For People--Not For Negro People, Only.

*

To do business, he will have to remove all typical "earmarks," business principles; measure up to accepted standards and meet stimulating competition, graciously--in fact, he must learn to welcome competition.

11. The Average So-Called Educated Negro Will Have To Come Down Out Of The Air. He Is Too Inflated Over Nothing. He Needs An Experience Similar To The One That Ezekiel Had--(Ezekiel 3:14-19). And He Must Do What Ezekiel Did

*

Otherwise, through indifference, as to the plight of the masses, the Negro, who thinks that he has escaped, will lose his own soul. It will do all leaders good to read Hebrew 13:3, and the first Thirty-seven Chapters of Ezekiel.
*

A race transformation itself through its own leaders and its sensible "common people." A race rises on its own wings, or is held down by its own weight. True leaders are never "things apart from the people." They are the masses. They simply got to the front ahead of them. Their only business at the front is to inspire to masses by hard work and noble example and challenge them to "Come on!" Dante stated a fact when he said, "Show the people the light and they will find the way!"
*

There must arise within the Negro race a leadership that is not out hunting bargains for itself. A noble example is found in the men and women of the Negro race, who, in the early days, laid down their lives for the people. Their invaluable contributions have not been appraised by the "latter-day leaders." In many cases, their names would never be recorded, among the unsung heroes of the world, but for the fact that white friends have written them there.

"Lord, God of Hosts, Be with us yet."

*

The Negro of today does not realize that, but, for these exhibits A's, that certainly show the innate possibilities of members of their own race, white people would not have been moved to make such princely investments in lives and money, as they have made, for the establishment of schools and for the on-going of the race.

12. The Negro Must Stop Forgetting His Friends. "Remember."

*

Read Deuteronomy 24:18. Deuteronomy rings the big bell of gratitude. Why? Because an ingrate is an abomination in the sight of God. God is constantly telling us that "I the Lord thy God delivered you"--through human instrumentalities.
*

The American Negro has had and still has friends--in the North and in the South. These friends not only pray, speak, write, influence others, but make unbelievable, unpublished sacrifices and contributions for the advancement of the race--for their brothers in bonds.
*

The noblest thing that the Negro can do is to so live and labor that these benefactors will not have given in vain. The Negro must make his heart warm with gratitude, his lips sweet with thanks and his heart and mind resolute with purpose to justify the sacrifices and stand on his feet and go forward--"God is no respector of persons. In every nation, he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is" sure to win out. Get to work! That's the answer to everything that hurts us. We talk too much about nothing instead of redeeming the time by working.

R-E-M-E-M-B-E-R

*

In spite of race prejudice, America is brim full of opportunities. Go after them!

http://www.blackmeninamerica.com/12.htm

[Keller]

This certainly was one of the worst worded apologies in quite some time. I do appreciate you maintaining such an air of civility though.

I take it, from the fact that you've stopped making wild accusations, that you finally comprehend what I was saying.

I'm glad I was able to coach you there. Sorry I had to be heavy-handed. I tried, early on, to get you to the correct answer by yourself. Eventually I had to take the celebrity jeopardy approach and painstakingly spell out it out with blinking neon. But the important part is that you finally get it.

[radamanthys]

If they were "identical", why didn't the latin and black girl deserve it? According to your statement, the white girl didn't deserve it either.

I understand what you're getting at; the statement just came off a little hateful, imo.

None of the three of them deserved it. The poor kid who couldn't afford college, and didn't get a scholarship because they took it did.

Edit: They were rich, and could have afforded school. Their grades were not good enough to get into the schools on their own other than by attribute of skin color or last name.

[AnticorRifling]

I read an article about how this was about reverse racism. I don't like that term, racism is racism is racism. That being said PB and Keller need to just sleep with each other and get it over with.

[diethx]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/AlBundy.jpg

http://www.gossipsucker.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bono_hand_in_pants.jpg

[Methais]

http://image20.webshots.com/21/4/78/60/204747860CCDcWs_ph.jpg

http://msa4.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ostrich.jpg

[CrystalTears]

None of the three of them deserved it. The poor kid who couldn't afford college, and didn't get a scholarship because they took it did.

Edit: They were rich, and could have afforded school. Their grades were not good enough to get into the schools on their own other than by attribute of skin color or last name.
Point taken, and I agree. I just wanted the clarification. :)

[Parkbandit]

I take it, from the fact that you've stopped making wild accusations, that you finally comprehend what I was saying.

I'm glad I was able to coach you there. Sorry I had to be heavy-handed. I tried, early on, to get you to the correct answer by yourself. Eventually I had to take the celebrity jeopardy approach and painstakingly spell out it out with blinking neon. But the important part is that you finally get it.

No, I simply realized that you have chosen to remain ignorant and stubborn and that my time is much better spent simply highlighting what a fool you are.

I think we can both agree: Mission Accomplished.

[radamanthys]

Point taken, and I agree. I just wanted the clarification. :)

10-4 and roger, rubber ducky.

[diethx]

Grr fixed.

[CrystalTears]

No, I simply realized that you have chosen to remain ignorant and stubborn and that my time is much better spent simply highlighting what a fool you are.

I think we can both agree: Mission Accomplished.
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there.

[Keller]

No, I simply realized that you have chosen to remain ignorant and stubborn and that my time is much better spent simply highlighting what a fool you are.

I think we can both agree: Mission Accomplished.

I feel like I am the Twilight Zone.

How unreasonable can one person be? Do you, after misrepresenting what I said (THE premise), making up something I didn't say and claiming I said it (race was not an issue), and blatently ignoring something else I said (the real issue is poverty), really think I have "choosen to remain ignorant and stubborn?"

[diethx]

I feel like I am the Twilight Zone.

How unreasonable can one person be? Do you, after misrepresenting what I said (THE premise), making up something I didn't say and claiming I said it (race was not an issue), and blatently ignoring something else I said (the real issue is poverty), really think I have "choosen to remain ignorant and stubborn?"

Have you stolen your stamina from the most interesting man in the world?

[Keller]

Have you stolen your stamina from the most interesting man in the world?

You're not the first person to make a similar comment.

I have a vacation coming up in 1.5 days. So if I am typing at my desk and I look engaged, I am less likely to put put on a new deal mere hours before my vacation.

[CrystalTears]

I feel like I am the Twilight Zone.

How unreasonable can one person be? Do you, after misrepresenting what I said (THE premise), making up something I didn't say and claiming I said it (race was not an issue), and blatently ignoring something else I said (the real issue is poverty), really think I have "choosen to remain ignorant and stubborn?"
He's just bitter that you choose to make it white/rich/burbs instead of black/rich/burbs. He's calling you a racist, beeyotch!!!

[Parkbandit]

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there.

I don't remember asking you actually. By we, I meant Keller and I.

Sorry you got confused :(

[Lumi]

You're way too patient, Keller.


I've been thinking that for like the last four pages of this train wreck.



I would be in favor of economic affirmative action, seeing as how it's the financial issues that cause people to have a harder time getting anywhere. I'm just not in favor of blanket handouts.

I completely agree. Rad's story is pretty much the perfect example of why.


so had you simply stated in your original post that it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with wealth, you wouldn't have had to dance around for 4 pages now.

For all of your bullshit, I am happy we finally agree that it had nothing to do with race.

You are welcome.

You are fail-incarnate, you know that?


There are many, many minorities who are NOT underprivliged.

Rad's whole post, on the other hand, is win.

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious where the complaints about judicial activism in the Supreme Court's decision are. Step it up, guys!

[Parkbandit]

Coming from you Lumi, I will take that as a compliment, since you are so rarely ever right.

[CrystalTears]

I don't remember asking you actually. By we, I meant Keller and I.

Sorry you got confused :(
As if I have ever needed your permission. You were wrong, you are still wrong, you don't know how or when to admit that you were wrong.

You've made a fool of yourself arguing with Keller. But go ahead, continue arguing with him. It's quite entertaining.

[Gan]

Held: The City’s action in discarding the tests violated Title VII. Pp. 16–34.

KENNEDY, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS, C.J., and SCALIA, THOMAS, and ALITO, JJ., joined. SCALIA, J., filed a concurring opinion. ALITO, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. GINSBURG, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which STEVENS, SOUTER, and BREYER, JJ., joined.


http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1428.pdf



{Opinion of the court}

We conclude that race-based action like the City’s in this case is impermissible under Title VII unless the employer can demonstrate a strong basis in evidence that, had it not taken the action, it would have been liable under the disparate-impact statute. The respondents, we further determine, cannot meet that threshold standard. As a result, the City’s action in discarding the tests was a violation of Title VII. In light of our ruling under the statutes, we need not reach the question whether respondents’ actions may have violated the Equal Protection Clause.
...
Our holding today clarifies how Title VII applies to resolve competing expectations under the disparatetreatment and disparate-impact provisions. If, after it certifies the test results, the City faces a disparate-impactsuit, then in light of our holding today it should be clear that the City would avoid disparate-impact liability based on the strong basis in evidence that, had it not certified the results, it would have been subject to disparate treatment liability.

Petitioners are entitled to summary judgment on theirTitle VII claim, and we therefore need not decide the underlying constitutional question. The judgment of theCourt of Appeals is reversed, and the cases are remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered.

[radamanthys]

Held: The City’s action in discarding the tests violated Title VII. Pp. 16–34.

KENNEDY, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS, C.J., and SCALIA, THOMAS, and ALITO, JJ., joined. SCALIA, J., filed a concurring opinion. ALITO, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. GINSBURG, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which STEVENS, SOUTER, and BREYER, JJ., joined.


http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1428.pdf

I can't think of anything clever and witty to say. :-(