Alright, I'll bite.

[Ker_Thwap]

I just came back from watching Road House at the local indie theatre so obviously, this has to happen, okayy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
You really want to pretend that you were looking to be a good citizen here and teach the world the glory that is your way of playing the game?

I never pretended I was "teaching the world the glory that is [my] way of playing the game." I simply pointed out that, from a mechanical standpoint, your decision to permabless your rapier (which to date you're unsure of the stats even) was a poor choice. Which again, you defended with mechanical reasons which I rebutted, then you backpedaled and said it was purely RP. What I don't get is that if it was purely RP why you're so concerned with my criticism. Other people have done far, Far, FAR stranger in the name of RP and that's totally fine with me. Admittedly, I'm a mechanics freak and don't RP, like, at all. One or more metro fire wizards can verify this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
Half of your responses in your private message to me had NO causal connection to my initial points. The were all true facts, but not pertinent.

That's just simply not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
Shall I post them? I'm old fashioned and don't make the contents of private messages public. But if you'd like to go ahead, do so.

First, you post this massive rant, which now you say wasn't the point, so *I* take it to PMs. Then you hypocritically threaten to post the PM but don't normally do so because you're "old fashioned." Srsly?

How about WE stop derailing this thread. You can make a new thread and you can post all the PMs you want so we can all join in and have a good laugh, forget about it, and go on our merry.



Because I hate bullies, and because I hate people who are incapable of simple logic even more, I'll go into detail on why Dan annoys me. I also enjoy debating. I too can play the cut and paste game. Let's explore this point by point.


I never pretended I was "teaching the world the glory that is [my] way of playing the game.


True. I was being a wiseass.


I simply pointed out that, from a mechanical standpoint, your decision to permabless your rapier (which to date you're unsure of the stats even) was a poor choice

Untrue. You were being an ass and mocking my decision. I still don't know if it's TWC or a Edged enhancive, but I do know it adds a good amount of AS to each hand. Which skill it enhances isn't important.


Which again, you defended with mechanical reasons which I rebutted

We'll go over those one by one below. Be patient


then you backpedaled and said it was purely RP

You make stuff up, I never said it was for purely RP. Maybe you believe I said this? If this is the case you have a serious problem with basic logic. My stating that both mechanical reasons in my first response AND roleplay reasons does not equal my saying it's for purely roleplaying reasons. My choice is for a combination of the two. A + B does not equal B (unless A=0)


why you're so concerned with my criticism

I'm not a fan of board bullies. I'm an old man that has lived my life not taking crap from anyone, and I'm not about to start now. I happen to have way too much free time, and feel like debating, so here we are. Maybe, just maybe I can teach something as well. I'm not holding my breath.


"Other people have done far, Far, FAR stranger in the name of RP and that's totally fine with me. Admittedly, I'm a mechanics freak and don't RP, like, at all."

I do like RP, and I like mechanics to a certain extent. It makes me happiest to just screw around in game first and worry about mechanics second. I understand that some people don't like to RP. This is fine with me, because it detracts nothing from my enjoyment of the game. You'll be off powerhunting, and I'll be doing my combination of roleplaying and power hunting. Chances are we'll never meet in game and not ruin each other's enjoyment of the game.



First, you post this massive rant, which now you say wasn't the point, so *I* take it to PMs. Then you hypocritically threaten to post the PM but don't normally do so because you're "old fashioned." Srsly?


No, I was very sincere. I wasn't threatening to to post the private message. However, since you publicly posted that you had edjamacated me through PM, I felt it only fair to mention that much of your PM was not specific to to the questions at hand. Again, this is a failure of basic logic. Seriously, without your permission, I would never have posted a private message, that's just inconsiderate.



How about WE stop derailing this thread. You can make a new thread and you can post all the PMs you want so we can all join in and have a good laugh, forget about it, and go on our merry.


Good suggestion. So with your permission, I now post the following:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
Maybe you've never played a gnome, maybe you're just an ignorant judgmental clown who likes to point and laugh at what he doesn't understand.

I know exactlyhow the Chest Worn Multiplier, Strength and Constitution Stats, Base Body Weight, and Strength Bonus on Initial Encumbrance contributes to Burghal Gnome encumbrance woes because I documented them in detail on the officials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- The offhand rapier is enhanced to add TWC ranks. This means it adds a good amount of AS to each hand.

False. It will add 2/5th the bonus to offhand AS. That is neither good, nor moderate. In fact, that sucks royal donkey balls. In terms of AS, you would be better off with Edged Weapons bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I used to carry a minimum of 7 weapons at a time, the 1 enhancive rapier, 3 other blessed rapiers for which I'd have to pester clerics non stop, 1 boot dagger which I kept blessed for emergencies, and 2 flaring short swords for the living creatures.

Locker them or get a warrior sheath that holds up to 5 weapons and reduces the weight of each item in them by 2 lbs each. Problem Solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Since I used the enhancive rapier every hunt (dead or undead), it burned through blesses at an astounding rate.

If you're hunting non-corp undead, you want to mstrike since you'll kill by attrition and you'll get the best damage/RT quotient. Furthermore, you should also have the most damaging weapon type you can muster and still retain minimal RT. This shouldn't be hard since you're a gnome with superb Dex/Agi. Therefore, choosing to Permabless a rapier for your very purposes is an epic fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I also carried lockpicks, two wedges, a flask, acantha leaf, strength enhancive items, and little else.

Put wedges in your locker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- With the permablessed rapier, I can leave 2 normally blessed rapiers behind, freeing up 4 valuable pounds.

See Warrior Sheath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- If I'm hunting in a mixed dead/undead area such as harbs/steeds helping someone out. I put a flaring short sword in my right hand. Then I can use the SWAP command when a dead steed wanders in.

You're failing to maximize your potential with such shitty weapons. Wwing big weapons because you can. To ensure you don't get fucked by the offhand weight penalty, get an imflass (.7 weight mod) or vultite (.8 weight mod).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Hunting undead, it makes no difference what hand the perma blessed weapon is in. I have no idea yet if the permabless weapon even has holy water flares yet, I haven't hunted with it yet. If it doesn't have holy water flares then I'd be better off with the permablessed in my left hand.

Permabless takes up the GSL slot spot for flares/weighting/special scripts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- It's a gnome, I don't get single shot kills ever. I hit things in the leg, knockdown/maybe stun with the first weapon, occasionally I get the kill with the offhand weapon. Most often, I hit it with both weapons, then try again.

As a gnome rogue, you should almost always be using kneebash; you get a racial bonus, guild bonus, dagger (+10) or blackjack (+30), +10 wspec. When something is kneeling, it's effectively prone for ambushing purposes. The caveat is that you can only aim to the eye/neck/head of a kneebash'd target that is only 6' or less. Unfortunately, you can't get giants (~21 feet) or trolls (~10 feet) even after you kneebash. You could try sweep but you get a racial penalty to that. You could also use Hamstring but it doesn't put them into RT so it's best to use after they attack or if you're using haste imbeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I've only been playing for a bit over a year. I don't have a 10x rapier of doom, nor any items nice enough to trade for the one decent rapier available at any cost. Thus, I must go the long route and build my own gear up from scratch.

My point is you would be FAR better off if you put this on an imflass longsword or something similar. Hell, if you used dual longswords, you'd have 6 Base RT (reduced to 5 via dex/agi) and 9 ambushing RT (reduced to the minimum 6 via dex/agi).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I may be able to buy enchanting spots at the upcoming festivals, or maybe even a friend will get it enchanted for me for free at an upcoming festival. I may just have to use premium points and take ten years to bring up the enchant on this rapier. I'm in no rush.

It's a waste. The DF on a rapier is so horrid that it isn't worth ETing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Bottom line, this item being permablessed works out perfectly for the way I play this game.

The way you play this game is substandard.


Let's examine each of your response one by one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
Maybe you've never played a gnome, maybe you're just an ignorant judgmental clown who likes to point and laugh at what he doesn't understand.

I know exactlyhow the Chest Worn Multiplier, Strength and Constitution Stats, Base Body Weight, and Strength Bonus on Initial Encumbrance contributes to Burghal Gnome encumbrance woes because I documented them in detail on the officials.


Logically. Playing a gnome, interacting with others, going on group hunts, being part of a player run group, etc. is far different from having memorized the multipliers and having a theoretical knowledge of why it's difficult to play a Gnome. I carefully chose to use the word "maybe" twice in my statement.

I think you answered the implied question to my satisfaction, perhaps you have powertrained a Gnome, but you have never roleplayed a Gnome. If you had, you wouldn't have answered the following questions the way you did.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- The offhand rapier is enhanced to add TWC ranks. This means it adds a good amount of AS to each hand.

False. It will add 2/5th the bonus to offhand AS. That is neither good, nor moderate. In fact, that sucks royal donkey balls. In terms of AS, you would be better off with Edged Weapons bonus.


False? Have I once mentioned how much AS it adds? No, I haven't. I assure you, it's a good amount. Well, yes I would be better off with one that adds the same amount of Edged bonus. I'll just pull one of those out of my magical rapier dispensing ass. Not pertinent. This reply has no causal relationship to my statement. You have not refuted my argument that the rapier adds AS to both hands. You've rambled into small details about how the AS is computed, factually correct, practically (in practice) useless.

I'll even go further, out of ambush, I rely on the small weapon crit bonus for that all important knockdown/stun. Getting the bonus AS to the right hand weapon to ensure a non wiff is critical to the group hunting strategy for most of my hunts. Yes, hunting with friends of various skill levels I can keep up to three critters stunned and on the ground, depending on the hunting area. O for 1.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I used to carry a minimum of 7 weapons at a time, the 1 enhancive rapier, 3 other blessed rapiers for which I'd have to pester clerics non stop, 1 boot dagger which I kept blessed for emergencies, and 2 flaring short swords for the living creatures.

Locker them or get a warrior sheath that holds up to 5 weapons and reduces the weight of each item in them by 2 lbs each. Problem Solved.



The warrior sheath is an excellent suggestion. I replied and thanked you for that I was completely unaware this existed. Again, excellent advice.

As far as lockering them, there we disagree again. Factually great idea, but in practice, not such a great one. When I play a multi player game I actually hang out and interact with the characters of other players. Thus I try to be considerate of their time. I don't hang around AFK in the the town centers, I try not to make them wait around on me while I constantly run to my locker to switch out weapons. I play primarily during the day time, it can be difficult to find a cleric, so when I run across one, I want to have my weapons with me, not in my locker. I'd find it discourteous to not only ask for a bless but to have them wait four minutes while I run to my locker in Solhaven to grab a weapon for them to bless. I like to remain flexible in my hunting options, when someone in my group runs out of blessings, we can move to a different area without my having to go back to town to switch around my weapons first, delaying several characters (with real people behind them) by 3 minutes or more.

However the sheath was such an excellent suggest, I'll give you this one. 1 for 2.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Since I used the enhancive rapier every hunt (dead or undead), it burned through blesses at an astounding rate.

If you're hunting non-corp undead, you want to mstrike since you'll kill by attrition and you'll get the best damage/RT quotient. Furthermore, you should also have the most damaging weapon type you can muster and still retain minimal RT. This shouldn't be hard since you're a gnome with superb Dex/Agi. Therefore, choosing to Permabless a rapier for your very purposes is an epic fail.

Failure in causal connection again. I said it burned through blesses. You rambled about something else.

Who said I was hunting non corp undead? Well, admittedly, sometimes I do. Just for fun, let me explain how I hunted eidolons the majority of the time. I ambushed, got the knock down to put them into delay and to lower their DS. Then and only then was my hunting partner with low AS able to hit them, hard. With a quick ambush, I can get back into hiding and prepare for the second and third eidolon that may come into the room. Factually correct, but not at all pertinent to how I play the game. My goal isn't the fastest kill, it's to aid my hunting party, so everyone gets out alive. 1 for 3




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I also carried lockpicks, two wedges, a flask, acantha leaf, strength enhancive items, and little else.

Put wedges in your locker.


Factually correct, practically a pain in the ass. I mostly need multiple wedges when I severely overhunt my level. I only severely overhunt with a player group. Again, courtesy to the real life players of the group demands I have the wedges available so I don't waste their time. But, I also want to be known as a locksmith first, thus, when characters stop me in the street, I want to have a wedge or two available, not to say "plated" and hand it back.

I've since worked around a solution to this by multi accounting. My table wizard holds a pile of wedges and delivers them as needed.

1 for 4



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- With the permablessed rapier, I can leave 2 normally blessed rapiers behind, freeing up 4 valuable pounds.

See Warrior Sheath.


Again, excellent advice. 2 for 5



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- If I'm hunting in a mixed dead/undead area such as harbs/steeds helping someone out. I put a flaring short sword in my right hand. Then I can use the SWAP command when a dead steed wanders in.

You're failing to maximize your potential with such shitty weapons. Wwing big weapons because you can. To ensure you don't get fucked by the offhand weight penalty, get an imflass (.7 weight mod) or vultite (.8 weight mod).

Maybe you didn't read the "helping someone out" part? Again, bigger weapons don't get the ambush bonus. I like to count on the knockdown so my hunting partners can hit things and get exp. It keeps the hunt under control, albeit slower. Yeah, I'm aware of the offhand weight penalty, but swapping the blessed weapon to the right hand even at the loss of a few AS, still gets me the better crit/knockdown bonus. Factually correct, practically useless. 2 for 6



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Hunting undead, it makes no difference what hand the perma blessed weapon is in. I have no idea yet if the permabless weapon even has holy water flares yet, I haven't hunted with it yet. If it doesn't have holy water flares then I'd be better off with the permablessed in my left hand.

Permabless takes up the GSL slot spot for flares/weighting/special scripts.


That's good to know. So my theory that it would be better off in the left hand turned out to be true. I'd rather have the flare in the right hand. You weren't attempting to refute anything on this one, so let's not count it, and thank you for the useful information. 2 for 6.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- It's a gnome, I don't get single shot kills ever. I hit things in the leg, knockdown/maybe stun with the first weapon, occasionally I get the kill with the offhand weapon. Most often, I hit it with both weapons, then try again.

As a gnome rogue, you should almost always be using kneebash; you get a racial bonus, guild bonus, dagger (+10) or blackjack (+30), +10 wspec. When something is kneeling, it's effectively prone for ambushing purposes. The caveat is that you can only aim to the eye/neck/head of a kneebash'd target that is only 6' or less. Unfortunately, you can't get giants (~21 feet) or trolls (~10 feet) even after you kneebash. You could try sweep but you get a racial penalty to that. You could also use Hamstring but it doesn't put them into RT so it's best to use after they attack or if you're using haste imbeds.


This is certainly useful information. I'm stalled in my cheapshots however because I waited too long to train them, and got into the no mans land where there are just three creatures in game that can give me reps. Black forest ogres/boars and lesser minotaurs. Even legged and stunned, I flat out can not cheap temple the black forest creatures, dagger, blackjack, the suckers are just too resistant. I can get the minotaurs now, so I'll be starting that up again shortly.

Be that as it may however, my group hunting strategy is to stalk my partner, leg the critter, hide, let them hit it, and ambush for the killing blow. This works for everything but stone creatures, so while I may use your advice for certain situations, it's not particularly pertinent to my every day hunting. I'm tempted to call this one a push, but I'll give it to you. 3 for 6.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I've only been playing for a bit over a year. I don't have a 10x rapier of doom, nor any items nice enough to trade for the one decent rapier available at any cost. Thus, I must go the long route and build my own gear up from scratch.

My point is you would be FAR better off if you put this on an imflass longsword or something similar. Hell, if you used dual longswords, you'd have 6 Base RT (reduced to 5 via dex/agi) and 9 ambushing RT (reduced to the minimum 6 via dex/agi).


I want the 5 second ambush, I want the short weapon ambush bonus. It works for my style of group hunting. There are a good number of creatures where the 6 second ambush gets the gnome killed on a wiff, but the 5 second attack is enough to get back into stance defense or hiding again.

A longsword seems to me to be the worst of both worlds, it's not very damaging on it's own, and it doesn't get much (any?) short weapon bonus from ambush. I suspect this is probably just a matter of opinion, but I can't say you're wrong or right. Push. 3 for 6.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- I may be able to buy enchanting spots at the upcoming festivals, or maybe even a friend will get it enchanted for me for free at an upcoming festival. I may just have to use premium points and take ten years to bring up the enchant on this rapier. I'm in no rush.

It's a waste. The DF on a rapier is so horrid that it isn't worth ETing it.



I get crap loads of hidden DF from my build. I routinely do 50 to 100 points of damage with the off hand, as well as the occasional stun/knockdown. 3 for 7



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ker_Thwap View Post
- Bottom line, this item being permablessed works out perfectly for the way I play this game.

The way you play this game is substandard.


I could say the same about the way you play this game. This game really isn't rocket science, there's just some basic algebra. It's no great feat to figure out how the mechanics work and create a maximized character. I was a math major, this kind of stuff just bores the hell out me.

I play this game for a variety of reasons, I know just enough about the mechanics to get by and to further my in character goals.

I don't know what to make of you honestly. (It's my hobby to analyze people)
-You're a math geek (as am I)
- You have Beavus and Butthead tendencies (Vulvmancer? Really, Was Pussymaster taken?)
- You mock people on the internet. (I also do this, but only in retaliation)
- You have great theoretical knowledge of the game, but apply minimal logic in the way you apply it to practical situations.
-You make assumptions that roleplayers (and this is a roleplaying game) have the same needs that you have.
-You give advice when it's not asked for. (I also do this.)


Here's my advice. (unasked for) This is real advice and not just me being a dick. Spend a few hours on the internet learning about logic, it's an excellent discipline (which should appeal to your inner math geek) which can help many people in all sorts of aspects of their lives. Relating to this, learn at a minimum some common debating techniques and the common debating flaws. It greatly speeds up the interchange of ideas when both parties are discussing the same issue.

I'm fairly certain I've addressed everything. Feel free to respond or we can just agree to disagree. Either is fine with me.

[Parkbandit]

I wish I read more than 2 words to that WoT... because I feel that I needed to waste more of my life.

[Proxy]

>Post #1

Nice, ***** for style if nothing else.

[Donquix]

Duly noted. We've all filed this away for future reference.

I personally have a hard copy in a fireproof safe just to be sure.

[Asha]

[Hips]

TLDR

[Allereli]

Beavis

[radamanthys]

I missed something. Who/what is this about?

[Ker_Thwap]

Sorry, I should have given the standard "really long post" warning in the topic line. Sorry for wasting the two minutes of your life.

[Beguiler]

My eyes are bleeding. Drayal, you made me laugh-snort, AGAIN! Pogy, yer an old man? <puzzles>

<twitch>

[Asha]

:D UR WELCUM!

[Warriorbird]

I like you Pogy. I can't judge, given some of the long pointless runs of posts I've had back and forth with people on these boards... but damn. Let us catch our breath.

[Back]

Surreal Thursday.

[DoctorUnne]

Ker_Thwap: The offhand rapier is enhanced to add TWC ranks. This means it adds a good amount of AS to each hand.

Vulvamancer: False. It will add 2/5th the bonus to offhand AS. That is neither good, nor moderate. In fact, that sucks royal donkey balls. In terms of AS, you would be better off with Edged Weapons bonus.

Ker_Thwap: False? Have I once mentioned how much AS it adds? No, I haven't.

Assuming I have these quotes correct, you responded by saying you didn't say something while quoting yourself saying it. If I don't have these quotes correct I apologize.

I won't get into the attitudes or insults or anything else, but based on my own knowledge of mechanics, especially TWC mechanics, Vulvamancer gave a lot of pretty sound mechanical advice in his PM. Most of it you refuted based on how you hunt specifically, which is fine, but that doesn't make his advice bad. Most of your responses start are "factually correct, but it doesn't apply to my unique hunting and RP style." It would be valid in most cases though. He probably assumed you needed more general mechanical advice based on your quote above, which is indeed wrong. TWC skill or enhancives have nothing to do with primary weapon AS. Obviously you know mechanics better than he thought, but again his advice would have been pretty helpful for most people. There's a reason why rapiers aren't heavily used, and it's not an RP reason.

One other thing that I think you're a bit confused on. Ambushing from hiding does nothing to increase a weapon's DF. It adds phantom damage for crit purposes independent of any DF multiplier. Where DF comes into play is you need to hit a minimum raw damage threshhold (enough to produce a rank 1 crit) in order to activate your ambush crit weighting. That is a function of weapon DF vs. target armor, and weapons with shitty DFs make it harder to reach this threshhold.

Anyway, I'm not trying to take sides or join the argument, but I'm just suggesting you give the mechanical advice a harder look.

[NocturnalRob]

wtf is going on here? i need a 2-line summation. please to help. i'm going to get popcorn.

[Warriorbird]

An argument over a permablessing somebody got on a rapier became way way TLDR.

[StrayRogue]

The gist I have got is that Thwap said something mechanically wrong, Vulvamancer corrected him, then Thwap said he didn't care because it's about RP not mechanics. Or something.

[Some Rogue]

wtf is going on here? i need a 2-line summation. please to help. i'm going to get popcorn.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/lol_wut.jpg

There's your summary.

[Ryvicke]

Pogy enlivens Solhaven and is often the only locksmith around and RPs a gnome very well. Gnimble casts 1030 like an absolute motherfucker (in a good way).

Both know mechanics but Vulva has semi-godly knowledge.

Pogy uses... a rapier (this is actually kind of offensive). And then permablessed one (!!!! srs).

Both have said tons of funny shit in this spat and we were all duly entertained.

[Ker_Thwap]

DoctorUnne is essentially correct.

Except he wasn't really give me advice, he was trying to tell me how stupid I was for permablessing an offhand weapon.

Yes, I used DF incorrectly. I just didn't (and still don't) know the term for the "phantom damage for crit purposes" I just generally know it exists for smaller weapons and it seems to work pretty well for me even with a -3 DF situation.

That was a good explanation, and eventually I'll remember how it works.

[ElvenFury]

...-3 DF situation

Anybody know wtf he's talking about? Negative crit weighting? Standard weapons vs player forged weapons? AvD?

???

[Atlanteax]

tl;dr

[Methais]

Know why a lock will often dc right as you notice or come after them? cause a fear is likely to follow fast, so what do you do? trinket out of the dc right when it hits. i'm not crazy, yes dc is only 3 seconds but in 3 seconds i can immolate, fear so after that i just, curse, corruption and siphon life and wave goodbye so just because of that dc basically you get pwned that doesn't mean that its op just means that ur not taking it seriously... face it who doesn't have an insignia of the horde that doesn't consider them selves a newb? and why not know when to use it? using it everytime ur cced is not the answer, using it on the right cc is. If ur saying, oh but i use it all the time and so a lock comes by while the cooldown is down and he pwns me, well, that lock could have had his dc down just as easly as ur trinket was down and don't you also have skills that you could use that aren't on cooldown? WHAT ABOUT FEAR? umm you don't have other disrupts? most classes have a few ways to do it usually one at a range and one point blank or two ranged... plz really think before you pick this apart, don't come to me with newb statements like... oh but uh enh shammies only get earthshock.... don't forget grounding. one of the major advantages i have on my enh shammy to drop range users is grounding at 30 range, purge, tremor at about 20 yd range, purge check (purge again which doesn't even cast if you can't debuff anything else) then earth shock when they're casting and i'm on them if not already, if i do happen to get cced i trinket fast enough to almost count as a resist and i finish pwn. i'll also keep behind melee cuz most melee can't move freely and use all of their insta at the same time so i have a huge advantage ( i do this on my lock as well, fighting hunters this way is too easy since they have to melee you, just watch out for that icetrap, fight at max melee range and orbit, don't forget the run speed debuff. they could be decked and i come out of it with hardly a scratch, a combo of killing fast and avoiding dps/cc with good timing and cooldown milking. lots of times i'll put down a grounding when fighting melee so that some ranged spell on the way in hit the ground and not me, when i notice its down (instantly) i keep an eye out and keep range for a disrupt via earthshock so that i have time to get another grounding down and so i've negated 3 ranged attacks while dpsing the initial target and if that target isn't dead by the 3rd negated atk, i'm doing something wrong. My shammy IS enh and built low agi high str and stam... the way bliz meant them to be, don't believe me? check patches and talent tree its about atk pwr also str = shield defense. i'll usually move out of range to milk cool downs or toss my self a heal and come back in with a new shock and grounding to finish. There are lots of ways is what i'm saying, i'm a good pvp player and hence don't make bs excuses for loosing a fight, if i lose i look at what i did and didn't do and i adjust. most people only look at what happened to them when in fact they need to look at what they did to prevent it from happening and there is always an answer... if cooldowns are down they're down but thats anyone. people cry too much...... WAaaaa... cloak of shadows = maintain range so that when they dash they blow through most if not all of their CoS by the time they get to you and you're cooldowns are a bit more done. theres almost always a way to get out of cc at least initially via a trinket and what you do in that time is crucial. shammies drop poison clensing and earthbind on rogues, shock to dps and force the cos... etc etc etc... there is always a solution, crying woun't help. the fact that you only THINK that you are good at playing your class because you own newbs on a regular basis is whats keeping you back. on my first character (my lock) i thought i was good for a while cause i pwn easy and could take 2-3 people at a time, well i say now that every time, those 2-3 people where newbs, i rock the same newbs on my enh shammy all day and i do it a lot faster. i've fought not nearly enough good players and any 2 can surely rock my world, and any 1 player thats better then me can rock my world. what it boils down to is reflex, REALLY knowing ur class via not putting skills away and forgeting about them because i assure you that down the road when you get better you'll be like oh damn i didn't even know this did much ( like locks and curse of weakness or curse of recklessness) people don't respond to the most basic lock starts or powered skills from any class and believe it or not locks have it in them to pwn so much hard then 99% of locks out there do, i do it on a regular basis because when i thought i was good and at the end of my skill and that i just needed better gear i got better, i started to milk cooldowns, staying at max range, or getting in melee range more and play like a melee (thx to my shammy) and always be running exept when i'm about to get below 50% then i drain, trinket, drain. tbh i don't know much about other classes but what i do play comes down to skill, yes, some are easier to pwn with fresh out of the box but in the end, when you match skill levels you'll have the fight of ur life 1v1 any combo, healers too. i'm not gonna get into spec but if ur spec for pve and are complaining about pvp then stay a newb and keep getting owned by my lock along with the rest of your group. I understand that many of you have pride and will think that i don't know what i'm talking, just talking crap and well i am talking crap because i'm frustrated that people suck as bad as they do, yes take pride but in being able to give someone an even fight or better regardless of class. For those who think that locks are OP that just tells me that you have more to go in your development and for now your just holding yourself back if your not trying to find solutions, answers to differant match ups, you just don't see people giving away high end secrets cause not many want YOU to have the solution to their offensive or defensive strat and if they're really good they'll tell you that strat is all situational. I rolled an enh shammy cause people said its only good for lvling and as far as in pvp they are considered to be under powered. uhh so why roll a shammy? to prove a point and i've been doing it since day one and all people can say is omg and wtf when i come out untouched or nearly un touched cause i dicided to take dps over wasting disrupts that could be used to stop cc, which is about timing and spell recognition (get natur enemycastbar to make it easy). when ur a burst class like the ehn shammy they're not gonna give you an easy mode button that you can press to make sure you can get ur dps, you have to work but it pays off. first, youre a hybrid and second you can burst through someone's full hp in record time if you say, swing first then stormstrike after the windfury cooldown is up (this is timing too for max results) so you can get wf+weapon dmg + ohh handhit + 2 swings from stormstrike which each can proc wf for another wf atk of 2 swings all in 3 seconds which really feels more like 2 (i put a shock in there basically for .0seconds after the stormstrike) don't forget that every one of those hits gives my weapon proc a chance to go off... . this is why i do dw and i bet you that i could own any 2h shammy with same gear cuz 99.9% of people that play burst classes out there burst max at first then wait for cooldowns or if your good manage your utility in that time. the thing to do is manage burst with util to opt on results, i can get around healers this way, i drop someone by about 25-40% on the initial attack, non burst then stormstrike and shock to finish, usually healers heal at around 60% hp with a big heal and around 30-40 with a quick one so if i save burst i can blast someone for 50% consistantly cause after all thats what dw is about ,consistent dps ( better control ) and you'll never get cought praying for a windfury atk cause tbh i need slower weapons to get wf less which will make my burst bigger, 2.7mh and low 2.0s for the off hand. when i have that my wf will be opted and i'll basically get wf from global cooldown to global cooldown (with stormstrike). get into the numbers of your class because it will help you not waste time and money getting ur strat, gear and spec all in line with what styles you want to support. Don't blame bliz, they only "balance" to make strong skills that require skill to overcome easier to deal with. if everyone was held to a high standard in pvp and more people reached it or exceeded it, we wouldn't have so many newb babies who think that pve skill = pvp skill when in reality its very much the other way around. people consider me a great player because i play in a way that most consider to be exceptional but i tell people that i only play my class the way it was meant to be played and thats not just one way, we have so many skills and so many could count the skills they use in pvp and pve regularly on one hand, thats not playing your class and thats not being good. They made this game easy, yes (out of the box) its easy but they also reward those who devote their practice to the pursuit of honing and mastering their class as well as the game's mechanics. It shows when you get there and when you do truely get closer to mastering one class it will make you quickly master the next and vice versa. This isn't even a large time sink i don't play that much, and i pwn max decked people without being decked, always have the gear comes slow for me cause i don't play too much but my skill covers that issue easly. Focus on your gameplay and max out on speed, efficiency and effectiveness and not just dps which takes all 3 elements into account if you want to be just good dps. also, keep gear in mind, if you're crying about being owned by locks with more pvp gear then you then stop right there. its PVP

[Methais]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif Alright, I'll bite. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=927207#post927207) 04-23-2009 12:31 PM fuck. off.

A wall of text is not two sentences its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my point a wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff infact we have to in arans fight in karazahn or hell pyro us all todeath but actually it turns out you can los that if your by the colunmn instead of in plain site i was very happy about this it makde the fight much easier and yes for those of you still reading this is a wall of text and said wall of text will now repeat to underscore my pointa wall of text is not two sentances its 300 without any form of punctuation to emphasize this point i will show you a wall of text even though most walls of text are far more intersting and complex than the following walll i feel it will do a good job of explaingin what a wall is much like we saw numerous times in numerous other posts by a wide array of various people who felt that walls of text were a totally and completly soiceltally acceptable posting form on an internet forum which can already be hard to read for some people depending on their monter you see blizzard suicks and wants people to die and the naurru are evil and illiditan shouldnt die and i think mages need to be buffed cause werenot the best thing since sliced bred extecpt in pvp when were overgeared and can oneshot another mage not a decent other class mind you since most classes should easily be pushing 10k health given that mages can do it with a bit of a buff the following is not a wall of text it is in fact a neatly organized article with grammar and punctuation and paragraphs it goes like this Early mechanical clocks

No clocks survive from medieval Europe but various mentions in church records reveal some of the early history of the clock.

Medieval religious institutions required clocks to measure and indicate the passing of time because, for many centuries, daily prayer and work schedules had to be strictly regulated. This was done by various types of time-telling and recording devices, such as water clocks, sundials and marked candles, probably used in combination. Important times and durations were broadcast by bells, rung either by hand or by some mechanical device such as a falling weight or rotating beater.

The word 'horologia' (from the Greek hora, hour, and legein, to tell) was used to describe all these devices but the use of this word (still used in several romance languages) for all timekeepers conceals from us the true nature of the mechanisms. For example, there is a record that in 1176 Sens Cathedral installed a horologe but the mechanism used is unknown. In 1198, during a fire at the abbey of St Edmundsbury (now Bury St Edmunds) the monks 'ran to the clock' to fetch water, indicating that their water clock had a reservoir large enough to help extinguish the occasional fire.

These early clocks may not have used hands or dials but told the time with audible signals.
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A new mechanism

The word 'clock' (from the Latin word for "bell") which gradually supersedes 'horologe' suggests that it was the sound of bells which also characterized the prototype mechanical clocks that appeared during the 13th century.

Between 1280 and 1320 there is an increase in the number of references to clocks and horologes in church records, and this probably indicates that a new type of clock mechanism had been devised. Existing clock mechanisms that used water power were being adapted to take the driving power from falling weights. This power was controlled by some form of oscillating mechanism, probably derived from existing bell-ringing or alarm devices. This controlled release of power - the escapement - marks the beginning of the true mechanical clock.

These mechanical clocks were intended for two main purposes: for signalling and notification (e.g. the timing of services and public events), and for modelling the solar system. The former purpose is administrative, the latter arises naturally given the scholarly interest in astronomy, science, astrology, and how these subjects integrated with the religious philosopy of the time. The astrolabe was used both by astronomers and astrologers, and it was natural to apply a clockwork drive to the rotating plate to produce a working model of the solar system.

Simple clocks intended mainly for notification were installed in towers, and did not always require dials or hands. They would have announced the canonical hours or intervals between set times of prayer. Canonical hours varied in length as the times of sunrise and sunset shifted. The more sophisticated astronomical clocks would have had moving dials or hands, and would have shown the time in various time systems, including Italian hours, canonical hours, and time as measured by astronomers at the time. Both styles of clock started acquiring extravagant features such as automata.

In 1283 a large clock was installed at Dunstable Priory; its location above the rood screen suggests that it was not a water clock. In 1292, Canterbury Cathedral installed a 'great horloge'. Over the next 30 years there are brief mentions of clocks at a number of ecclesiastical institutions in England, Italy, and France. In 1322 a new clock was installed in Norwich, an expensive replacement for an earlier clock installed in 1273. This had a large (2 metre) astronomical dial with automata and bells. The costs of the installation included the full-time employment of two technicians for two years.
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Early astronomical clocks

The clocks constructed by Richard of Wallingford in St Albans by 1336, and by Giovanni da Dondi in Padua from 1348 to 1364, no longer exist but detailed descriptions of their design and construction survive, and modern reproductions have been made. They illustrate how quickly the theory of the mechanical clock had been translated into practical constructions, and also that one of the many impulses to their development had been the desire of astronomers to investigate celestial phenomena.

Wallingford's clock had a large astrolabe-type dial, showing the sun, the moon's age, phase, and node, a star map, and possibly the planets. In addition it had a wheel of fortune and an indicator of the state of the tide at London Bridge. Bells rang every hour, the number of strokes indicating the time.

Dondi's clock was a seven-sided construction, 1 metre high, with dials showing the time of day, including minutes, the motions of all the known planets, an automatic calendar of fixed and movable feasts, and an eclipse prediction hand rotating once every 18 years.

It is not known how accurate or reliable these clocks would have been. They were probably adjusted manually every day to compensate for errors caused by wear and imprecise manufacture.
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Elements of the mechanical clock

These 14th century clocks show the four key elements common to all clocks in subsequent centuries, at least up to the digital age:

* the power, supplied by a falling weight, later by a coiled spring
* the escapement, a periodic repetitive action that allows the power to escape in small bursts rather than drain away all at once
* the going train, a set of interlocking gear wheels that controls the speed of rotation of the wheels connected between the power supply and the indicators
* indicators, such as dials, hands, and bells

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Later developments

Clockmakers developed their art in various ways. Building smaller clocks was a technical challenge, as was improving accuracy and reliability. Clocks could be impressive showpieces to demonstrate skilled craftsmanship, or less expensive, mass-produced items for domestic use. The escapement in particular was an important factor affecting the clock's accuracy, so many different mechanisms were tried.

Spring-driven clocks were developed during the 15th century, and this gave the clockmakers many new problems to solve, such as how to compensate for the changing power supplied as the spring unwound.

The first record of a minute hand on a clock is 1475, in the Almanus Manuscript of Brother Paul.

During the 15th and 16th centuries, clockmaking flourished, particularly in the metalworking towns of Nuremberg and Augsburg, and, in France, Blois. Some of the more basic table clocks have only one time-keeping hand, with the dial between the hour markers being divided into four equal parts making the clocks readable to the nearest 15 minutes. Other clocks were exhibitions of craftsmanship and skill, incorporating astronomical indicators and musical movements. The cross-beat escapement was developed in 1585 by Jobst Burgi, who also developed the remontoire. Burgi's accurate clocks helped Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler to observe astronomical events with much greater precision than before.

The first record of a second hand on a clock is about 1560, on a clock now in the Fremersdorf collection. However, this clock could not have been accurate, and the second hand was probably for indicating that the clock was working.

The next development in accuracy occurred after 1657 with the invention of the pendulum clock. Galileo had the idea to use a swinging bob to propel the motion of a time telling device earlier in the 17th century. Christiaan Huygens, however, is usually credited as the inventor. He determined the mathematical formula that related pendulum length to time (99.38 cm or 39.13 inches for the one second movement) and had the first pendulum-driven clock made. In 1670, the English clockmaker William Clement created the anchor escapement, an improvement over Huygens' crown escapement. Within just one generation, minute hands and then second hands were added.

A major stimulus to improving the accuracy and reliability of clocks was the importance of precise time-keeping for navigation. The position of a ship at sea could be determined with reasonable accuracy if a navigator could refer to a clock that lost or gained less than about 10 seconds per day. Many European governments offered a large prize for anyone that could determine longitude accurately. The reward was eventually claimed in 1761 by John Harrison, who dedicated his life to improving the accuracy of his clocks. His H5 clock is reported to have lost less than 5 seconds over 10 days.

The excitement over the pendulum clock had attracted the attention of designers resulting in a proliferation of clock forms. Notably, the longcase clock (also known as the grandfather clock) was created to house the pendulum and works. The English clockmaker William Clement is also credited with developing this form in 1670 or 1671. It was also at this time that clock cases began to be made of wood and clock faces to utilize enamel as well as hand-painted ceramics.

On November 17, 1797, Eli Terry received his first patent for a clock. Terry is known as the founder of the American clock-making industry.

Alexander Bain, Scottish clockmaker, patented the electric clock in 1840. The electric clock's mainspring is wound either with an electric motor or with an electro-magnet and armature. In 1841, he first patented the electromagnetic pendulum.

The development of electronics in the twentieth century led to clocks with no clockwork parts at all. Time in these cases is measured in several ways, such as by the vibration of a tuning fork, the behaviour of quartz crystals, the decay of radioactive elements or resonance of polycarbonates. Even mechanical clocks have since come to be largely powered by batteries, removing the need for winding.
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Types

Clocks can be classified by the type of time display, as well as by the method of timekeeping.
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Time display methods
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Analog clocks
A linear clock at London's Piccadilly Circus tube station. The 24 hour band moves across the static map, keeping pace with the apparent movement of the sun above ground, and a pointer fixed on London points to the current time.
Enlarge
A linear clock at London's Piccadilly Circus tube station. The 24 hour band moves across the static map, keeping pace with the apparent movement of the sun above ground, and a pointer fixed on London points to the current time.

Analog clocks usually indicate time using angles. The most common clock face uses a fixed numbered dial or dials and moving hand or hands. It usually has a circular scale of 12 hours, which can also serve as a scale of 60 minutes, and often also as a scale of 60 seconds though many other styles and designs have been used throughout the years, including dials divided into 6, 8, 10, and 24 hours. Of these alternative versions, the 24 hour analog dial is the main type in use today. The 10 hour clock was briefly popular during the French Revolution, when the metric system was applied to time measurement, and an Italian 6 hour clock was developed in the 18th century, presumably to save power (a clock or watch chiming 24 times uses more power).

Another type of analog clock is the sundial, which tracks the sun continuously, registering the time by the shadow position of its gnomon. Sundials use some or part of the 24 hour analog dial.
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Digital clocks
A digital clock outside Kanazawa Station displays the time by controlling valves on a fountain.
Enlarge
A digital clock outside Kanazawa Station displays the time by controlling valves on a fountain.

Digital clocks display a numeric representation of time. Two numeric display formats are commonly used on digital clocks:

* the 24-hour notation with hours ranging 0023;
* the 12-hour notation with AM/PM indicator, with hours indicated as 12AM, followed by 1AM11AM, followed by 12PM, followed by 1PM11PM (a notation mostly used in the United States).

Most digital clocks use an LCD or LED display; many other display technologies are used as well (cathode ray tubes, nixie tubes, etc.). After a reset, battery change or power failure, digital clocks without a backup battery or capacitor either start counting from 00:00, or stay at 00:00, often with blinking digits indicating that time needs to be set. Some newer clocks will actually reset themselves based on internet-time servers which in turn are tuned to national atomic clocks.
Basic digital clock radio.
Enlarge
Basic digital clock radio.
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Auditory clocks

For convenience, distance, telephony or blindness, auditory clocks present the time as sounds. The sound is either spoken natural language, (e.g. "The time is twelve thirty-five"), or as auditory codes (e.g. number of sequential bell rings on the hour represents the number of the hour like the clock Big Ben).

[Methais]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gifAlright, I'll bite. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=927214#post927214) 04-23-2009 01:02 PM fuck. off. please?

yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean
yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean
yeah i know i mean come on i was so upset about this earlier i cried in a corner for 3 hours straight except when i got up to check the lag from time to time i was utterly heartbroken and i seriously considered suicide i just coudn't take it anymore the agony was too great it was the most horrible experience anyone in the whole universe could ever have i mean wtf you guys only care about money and ways to grief people like you wake up in the morning and are like 'haha i just thought of 17 new ways to anger the players on blackhand wait til i tell the guys at the office about this' and then you drink a giant cup of last night's coffee and get all cracked out and think of another 12 ways to grief the customers and then you guys take bets on how many whine threads there will be and how long it will take for them to arrive and then you guys take your winnings and spend it on new kids on the block cds cause thats what you listen to but anyway i had to call a crisis hotline because of the lag and they told me to just calm down and that everything would be ok but i didn't believe them and told them i had a knife and was gonna cut myself if the lag didnt stop and they got all freaked out and put this old guy on the phone that kept telling me that the lag wasnt worth ending my life over and i told him i didnt believe him and he said that if i killed myself now then id never get epics and i said oh yeah youre right thanks and hung up the phone and put the knife away it wasnt really a knife though i guess it was just an old he-man doll that was holding his sword but thats ok cause the old guy was right the lag cleared up after a few more minutes but then i got disconnected and while i was lagging out i was autorunning and i fell off the cliff from tanaris to un'goro and killed myself so see dont kill yourself over lag because the lag will just do it for you anyway but omg seriously blizzard this stuff better stop right now or me and my friend are gonna stop playing and then you guys will go bankrupt i mean come on

[Ker_Thwap]

Uhm, probably talking about AvD

[DoctorUnne]

Hahahahaha Methais

Pogy, hopefully this explanation will help you and other ambushers out a bit. If any of it is too elementary and you already know it I apologize. For those who don't like or care about math, you can ignore.

There are two types of damage, raw damage and crit damage. You add those two together to get the total damage done on any swing.

Raw damage is calculated by multiplying the (endroll - 100) by the damage factor (DF), which is a function of the weapon used and the target's armor group (scale, chain etc.). A rapier has a DF of .075 vs plate, meaning on an endroll of 300, you will do 23 raw damage, EVERY single time. The only things that will impact this are damage weighting and damage padding, which simply add and subtract, respectively, from the raw damage. A longsword has a DF of .175 vs plate, so on any given end roll a longsword will do 133% more raw damage. That is primarily why it's better.

Crit damage is determined by the crit rank (0-9), damage type (slash, puncture, crush) and body part. For each combination of the three you get a unique crit message, which is also associated with a fixed number of damage, a wound rank, and potentially a status effect such as knockdown, stun or instant death. The crit damage from a given crit is FIXED.

What isn't fixed is the crit rank you achieve. The crit rank you achieve is based on how much "critting damage" you do, but there is a random element. I realize I'm making up a new term in critting damage, but I want to distinguish it from crit damage which I defined earlier and is the actual damage resulting from a specific crit. If someone can come up with a better name than critting damage please do. Critting damage is where crit weighting/padding comes into play. Critting damage = raw damage (defined above) plus phantom damage from crit weighting minus phantom damage from crit padding. So with no crit weighting and no crit padding, critting damage = raw damage. This is what I meant when I said phantom damage before. It's damage that only comes into play when calculating the crit rank, but doesn't actually show up in damage done.

To get crit rank, first take the critting damage total and divide by the crit divisor of the target's armor (11 for plate, 9 for chain, 7 for scale etc.), and then round down. That is the MAX crit rank you can achieve on that hit. The ACTUAL crit rank can be anywhere between half the max rank and the max rank. So if you get a max crit rank of 7, the actual crit rank you see will be either 4, 5, 6 or 7. Each of those will have a different crit message and do different amounts of crit damage. That is why with a given endroll with the same weapon, the same armor, and the same location, you can have varying amounts of damage.

Crit weighted weapons provide phantom critting damage equal to half their weighting value. So a heavy crit-weighed weapon (weighting value of 10) will provide 5 phantom damage for the critting damage formula every time. Against robes (crit divisor of 5), this will be enough to increase your max crit rank by 1 every swing. However, using the same numbers as before, because of the randomness, you might actually see a rank 6 crit with the weighted weapon (max crit rank of 8) and a rank 7 crit with the unweighted weapon (max crit rank of 7).

Ambushing from hiding also provides phantom critting damage, and a LOT of it. I've shown before that 90 ranks of ambush provide a minimum of 20 phantom critting damage, which is the equivalent of a 40 value on the weapon weighting scale, which is a claid. This is why you don't necessarily need a heavily crit-weighted weapon as an ambusher. The phantom critting damage from ambushing by itself is often enough to get you to the point where your max crit rank is 9, and you can't do any better than that.

Finally, another very important point with light weapons is you must get a minimum rank 1 crit from the raw damage alone in order to activate any additional weighting, whether from ambushing or weapon weighting. This is another place where the longsword shows its superiority. Say the target is in plate (crit divisor 11). In order to get a rank 1 crit just from the raw damage, you need 11 raw damage. With a DF of .075, that means you need an endroll of 240 to even have a chance at getting anything above a rank 0 crit. With a longsword, you only need an endroll of 160. Obviously this is an extreme example and not nearly as much of an issue if the target is in robes or leather.

Anyway, hopefully this provided a little more info so you can better understand your weapon choice as an ambusher. I purposely did not get into redux as it complicates these formulas. Another note is that you get some inherent crit weighting from your DEX bonus and some inherent crit padding from your CON bonus, but I didn't want to make the formulas more complicated than they already are. And Pogy, smaller weapons have two bonuses. They are faster and easier to aim. But neither of those attributes have anything to do with damage done. I don't know the base speeds off the top of my head, but Gnimble's argument is the longsword's overwhelming advantage in damage is more than enough for most people to offset the slightly slower speed (although you pointed out that's not the case for you), and I believe difficulty in aiming is overcome with enough ambush training.

[Warriorbird]

Doesn't ambush from hiding grant more with smaller weapons?

[thefarmer]

Doesn't ambush from hiding grant more with smaller weapons?

Sure.

It allows you an increased chance to hit a smaller body part (eye, neck). Whee?

[Danical]

I didn't have the time to read all the awesomeness but I've read some of the posts which demonstrate your lack of the fundamentals of hunting mechanics reinforcing my position. Rad.

The "rambling" was how a higher DF would be far better suited so you wouldn't burn through blesses hunting with a god damn noodle. JTFC, I didn't think I had to spell that out.

Also, insofar as your "logic" is concerned - I have a degree in Analytic Philosophy and Applied Social Psychology. If you really want to go there, I can guarantee lulz to be had.

You keep going back to RP - I don't give a fuck about RP. I'll say it again, mechanically speaking, it was stupid to permabless a god damn rapier. FFS, what does "knowing how to RP a gnome" make a bit of difference when it comes to god damn mechanics, which is my argument. If you just said, in the very first post that it was purely for RP instead of defending it mechanically, I wouldn't have said a god damn word. You're responses are a train wreck of fallacies, most notably straw mans and red herrings.

Lastly, wtf does Vulvamancer have to do with anything?

1) buddy says, make that name.
2) lulz - k
3) account created.
QED: I DID IT FOR THE LULZ.

(I do appreciate the walls of text though methais - I lulz'd)

[Ryvicke]

Doesn't ambush from hiding grant more with smaller weapons?

The shit is that with the much smaller DF of smaller weapons you're going to have a harder time getting the death crit (although they come at lower thresholds on those areas).

And you're not doing as much raw damage or getting as many stuns, i.e. the handaxe/falchion to the head is a lot of times preferable to a dagger in the eye unless you've got a weighted dagger or are pretty damn proficient at hitting the eye. At least with the handaxe/fal you've got a chance to bleed them to death if you miss quite a bit and at the least give them a good stun.

[Warriorbird]

With dual wield... would low Gnome strength factor you down into smaller stuff?

[Danical]

With dual wield... would low Gnome strength factor you down into smaller stuff?

For the off-hand. I believe it's 1 lb per 5 STR bonus or something like that I'd have to check to be sure and I'm at the office.

If it's above that threshold, you get RT penalties for TWC.

Hence why Pogy saw a reduction in RT when he lightened his glaes rapier from 4 lbs to 2 lbs.

[DoctorUnne]

For the off-hand. I believe it's 1 lb per 5 STR bonus or something like that I'd have to check to be sure and I'm at the office.

If it's above that threshold, you get RT penalties for TWC.

That sounds about right. With two handaxes the base TWC RT is 5 + (5-2) = 8 seconds. I have a combined AGIDEX bonus of 27, so that is reduced by 2 to get an actual swing RT of 6 seconds. For awhile I was getting a 7 second RT though because I had a 6 lb axe in my off hand. My STR bonus is 22, so that would have been too much. However, I switched to a 4 lb axe and now I'm swinging in 6.

[Timjirdos]

TLDR, Here's a cartoon, instead.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk43/TheUnwind/2008%20-%20June/HoratioComic5.jpg

[Stretch]

Huh. They offer permablessing services now?

Also, the bigger mechanical mistake was choosing to be a Burghal Gnome, not using a rapier.

[Tisket]

Because I hate bullies, and because I hate people who are incapable of simple logic even more, I'll go into detail on why Dan annoys me. I also enjoy debating. I too can play the cut and paste game. Let's explore this point by point.



True. I was being a wiseass.



Untrue. You were being an ass and mocking my decision. I still don't know if it's TWC or a Edged enhancive, but I do know it adds a good amount of AS to each hand. Which skill it enhances isn't important.



We'll go over those one by one below. Be patient



You make stuff up, I never said it was for purely RP. Maybe you believe I said this? If this is the case you have a serious problem with basic logic. My stating that both mechanical reasons in my first response AND roleplay reasons does not equal my saying it's for purely roleplaying reasons. My choice is for a combination of the two. A + B does not equal B (unless A=0)



I'm not a fan of board bullies. I'm an old man that has lived my life not taking crap from anyone, and I'm not about to start now. I happen to have way too much free time, and feel like debating, so here we are. Maybe, just maybe I can teach something as well. I'm not holding my breath.



I do like RP, and I like mechanics to a certain extent. It makes me happiest to just screw around in game first and worry about mechanics second. I understand that some people don't like to RP. This is fine with me, because it detracts nothing from my enjoyment of the game. You'll be off powerhunting, and I'll be doing my combination of roleplaying and power hunting. Chances are we'll never meet in game and not ruin each other's enjoyment of the game.




No, I was very sincere. I wasn't threatening to to post the private message. However, since you publicly posted that you had edjamacated me through PM, I felt it only fair to mention that much of your PM was not specific to to the questions at hand. Again, this is a failure of basic logic. Seriously, without your permission, I would never have posted a private message, that's just inconsiderate.




Good suggestion. So with your permission, I now post the following:




Let's examine each of your response one by one.




Logically. Playing a gnome, interacting with others, going on group hunts, being part of a player run group, etc. is far different from having memorized the multipliers and having a theoretical knowledge of why it's difficult to play a Gnome. I carefully chose to use the word "maybe" twice in my statement.

I think you answered the implied question to my satisfaction, perhaps you have powertrained a Gnome, but you have never roleplayed a Gnome. If you had, you wouldn't have answered the following questions the way you did.




False? Have I once mentioned how much AS it adds? No, I haven't. I assure you, it's a good amount. Well, yes I would be better off with one that adds the same amount of Edged bonus. I'll just pull one of those out of my magical rapier dispensing ass. Not pertinent. This reply has no causal relationship to my statement. You have not refuted my argument that the rapier adds AS to both hands. You've rambled into small details about how the AS is computed, factually correct, practically (in practice) useless.

I'll even go further, out of ambush, I rely on the small weapon crit bonus for that all important knockdown/stun. Getting the bonus AS to the right hand weapon to ensure a non wiff is critical to the group hunting strategy for most of my hunts. Yes, hunting with friends of various skill levels I can keep up to three critters stunned and on the ground, depending on the hunting area. O for 1.




The warrior sheath is an excellent suggestion. I replied and thanked you for that I was completely unaware this existed. Again, excellent advice.

As far as lockering them, there we disagree again. Factually great idea, but in practice, not such a great one. When I play a multi player game I actually hang out and interact with the characters of other players. Thus I try to be considerate of their time. I don't hang around AFK in the the town centers, I try not to make them wait around on me while I constantly run to my locker to switch out weapons. I play primarily during the day time, it can be difficult to find a cleric, so when I run across one, I want to have my weapons with me, not in my locker. I'd find it discourteous to not only ask for a bless but to have them wait four minutes while I run to my locker in Solhaven to grab a weapon for them to bless. I like to remain flexible in my hunting options, when someone in my group runs out of blessings, we can move to a different area without my having to go back to town to switch around my weapons first, delaying several characters (with real people behind them) by 3 minutes or more.

However the sheath was such an excellent suggest, I'll give you this one. 1 for 2.




Failure in causal connection again. I said it burned through blesses. You rambled about something else.

Who said I was hunting non corp undead? Well, admittedly, sometimes I do. Just for fun, let me explain how I hunted eidolons the majority of the time. I ambushed, got the knock down to put them into delay and to lower their DS. Then and only then was my hunting partner with low AS able to hit them, hard. With a quick ambush, I can get back into hiding and prepare for the second and third eidolon that may come into the room. Factually correct, but not at all pertinent to how I play the game. My goal isn't the fastest kill, it's to aid my hunting party, so everyone gets out alive. 1 for 3





Factually correct, practically a pain in the ass. I mostly need multiple wedges when I severely overhunt my level. I only severely overhunt with a player group. Again, courtesy to the real life players of the group demands I have the wedges available so I don't waste their time. But, I also want to be known as a locksmith first, thus, when characters stop me in the street, I want to have a wedge or two available, not to say "plated" and hand it back.

I've since worked around a solution to this by multi accounting. My table wizard holds a pile of wedges and delivers them as needed.

1 for 4




Again, excellent advice. 2 for 5




Maybe you didn't read the "helping someone out" part? Again, bigger weapons don't get the ambush bonus. I like to count on the knockdown so my hunting partners can hit things and get exp. It keeps the hunt under control, albeit slower. Yeah, I'm aware of the offhand weight penalty, but swapping the blessed weapon to the right hand even at the loss of a few AS, still gets me the better crit/knockdown bonus. Factually correct, practically useless. 2 for 6




That's good to know. So my theory that it would be better off in the left hand turned out to be true. I'd rather have the flare in the right hand. You weren't attempting to refute anything on this one, so let's not count it, and thank you for the useful information. 2 for 6.




This is certainly useful information. I'm stalled in my cheapshots however because I waited too long to train them, and got into the no mans land where there are just three creatures in game that can give me reps. Black forest ogres/boars and lesser minotaurs. Even legged and stunned, I flat out can not cheap temple the black forest creatures, dagger, blackjack, the suckers are just too resistant. I can get the minotaurs now, so I'll be starting that up again shortly.

Be that as it may however, my group hunting strategy is to stalk my partner, leg the critter, hide, let them hit it, and ambush for the killing blow. This works for everything but stone creatures, so while I may use your advice for certain situations, it's not particularly pertinent to my every day hunting. I'm tempted to call this one a push, but I'll give it to you. 3 for 6.




I want the 5 second ambush, I want the short weapon ambush bonus. It works for my style of group hunting. There are a good number of creatures where the 6 second ambush gets the gnome killed on a wiff, but the 5 second attack is enough to get back into stance defense or hiding again.

A longsword seems to me to be the worst of both worlds, it's not very damaging on it's own, and it doesn't get much (any?) short weapon bonus from ambush. I suspect this is probably just a matter of opinion, but I can't say you're wrong or right. Push. 3 for 6.




I get crap loads of hidden DF from my build. I routinely do 50 to 100 points of damage with the off hand, as well as the occasional stun/knockdown. 3 for 7




I could say the same about the way you play this game. This game really isn't rocket science, there's just some basic algebra. It's no great feat to figure out how the mechanics work and create a maximized character. I was a math major, this kind of stuff just bores the hell out me.

I play this game for a variety of reasons, I know just enough about the mechanics to get by and to further my in character goals.

I don't know what to make of you honestly. (It's my hobby to analyze people)
-You're a math geek (as am I)
- You have Beavus and Butthead tendencies (Vulvmancer? Really, Was Pussymaster taken?)
- You mock people on the internet. (I also do this, but only in retaliation)
- You have great theoretical knowledge of the game, but apply minimal logic in the way you apply it to practical situations.
-You make assumptions that roleplayers (and this is a roleplaying game) have the same needs that you have.
-You give advice when it's not asked for. (I also do this.)


Here's my advice. (unasked for) This is real advice and not just me being a dick. Spend a few hours on the internet learning about logic, it's an excellent discipline (which should appeal to your inner math geek) which can help many people in all sorts of aspects of their lives. Relating to this, learn at a minimum some common debating techniques and the common debating flaws. It greatly speeds up the interchange of ideas when both parties are discussing the same issue.

I'm fairly certain I've addressed everything. Feel free to respond or we can just agree to disagree. Either is fine with me.

Ayeeeeee!!!! Posts of Mass Destruction!

[Proxy]

Ayeeeeee!!!! Posts of Mass Destruction!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii99/Flying_Squirles/ChuckBOOM.jpg